Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

It is but it introduces a new level that Goku and Vegeta were completely unaware of.

Vegeta already surpassed Jiren by a wide margin so for Beerus to defeat him as quickly as he did implies that his performance against the Hakaishins aren't reflective of his current strength. Regardless, Goku's reaction clearly shows he didn't expect Beerus to be capable of doing what he did against Vegeta. No way around it.

I recall Beerus hakaied a planet and showed control of his hakai enough to only destroy Vegeta's armor. I'm not sure if that was meant to imply that Beerus was holding back against the other GoDs and allowed himself to get that beat up by the end of it. Do you mean Beerus was secretly training since the ToP?

[Mr Baggins]

I had a random thought based on the God of Destruction battle royale. I'm wondering what would happen if all the mortals Jiren level and above ganged up on Beerus? Jiren, Broly, UI Goku, UE Vegeta, FP Moro, Granolah, Gas, Black Freeza, Cell Max, Orange Piccolo, and Beast Gohan (pretend they would all cooperate).

Overkill. The story already wants the audience to believe that FP Broly's power was too much for Beerus, and it's possible that Gohan Beast and Black Freeza are around that same level. But all of them together? We hardly knew ye, my Cornish Rex friend.

Remove half of the characters on that list and it might be a fairer fight.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think plenty of characters have gotten to Beerus's level of raw power or surpassed it since the Tournament of Power and onwards, but that he has abilities and martial arts skills that still put him on a different level.

[Koitsukai]

I can buy Beerus outlasting Broly, Jiren, Moro and Goku. But Gas, Gohan and Freeza belong to the next tier(at least these last two), and should be damn close to his FP, if not right there or above.

Whatever they meant with "shifting the balance of the universe", I believe two of the contenders for that spot should be enough, throw one more into the mix, just to be sure, and I don't see him come out of it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I had a random thought based on the God of Destruction battle royale. I'm wondering what would happen if all the mortals Jiren level and above ganged up on Beerus? Jiren, Broly, UI Goku, UE Vegeta, FP Moro, Granolah, Gas, Black Freeza, Cell Max, Orange Piccolo, and Beast Gohan (pretend they would all cooperate).

Could they defeat Beerus or would he still win? Beerus was pretty beat up by the end of the GoD battle royale. The others ganged up on him initially but then starting attacking each other so it became a regular free for all. Assuming these guys are all stronger than the other GoDs aside from Beerus, I think he would have more difficulty fighting against them at once.

That's way too many folks jumping Beerus at once for Beerus to handle, even with Hakai Power. He's not walking out of this one.

[Thani]

I mean, Beerus only managed to manouver around his fellow gods (for a while) thanks to his incomplete Ultra Instinct. Put a user of the completed version of it to tag him, and he wouldn't have such a free range of movement. Plus Gas and Freeza outright no selled the "automatic movement" of the technique with ease, so Beerus won't have that advantage against them anyway.

[Goku9001]

It is but it introduces a new level that Goku and Vegeta were completely unaware of.

Vegeta already surpassed Jiren by a wide margin so for Beerus to defeat him as quickly as he did implies that his performance against the Hakaishins aren't reflective of his current strength. Regardless, Goku's reaction clearly shows he didn't expect Beerus to be capable of doing what he did against Vegeta. No way around it.

I recall Beerus hakaied a planet and showed control of his hakai enough to only destroy Vegeta's armor. I'm not sure if that was meant to imply that Beerus was holding back against the other GoDs and allowed himself to get that beat up by the end of it. Do you mean Beerus was secretly training since the ToP?

I've always considered the possibility that Beerus had gotten stronger since the Tournament of Power. He implies this by asserting that his power is boundless because his mind is always on Destruction. In a sense, his power is derived from Destruction so constantly invoking it could naturally make him stronger in the same sense that UE Vegeta experiencing pain made him stronger as well.

I don't really look at that as Beerus "actively" training. Every moment we see him is Beerus merely relaxing in the anime, movie, and manga continuities. I think the main point is that Destruction for Beerus is like Ultra Instinct for the Angels. It is invoked subconsciously. It is a natural state of being. For Beerus, he could very well be in a constant state of Destruction which would naturally strengthen him while loafing around or even in his sleep.

At least, that is one explanation for why Beerus' power shifted and I think it's more logical than assuming that Beerus' position was overtaken by Broly when the universe's balance up until the end of the Granolah arc had been maintained.

[Miracles]

Let me see each one of those fighters take on all 11 gods of destruction at once and force a handful of them needing to be "saved" from a casual hand blast like Beerus. I'm sorry, this is the best feat in the entire series alone, and not one person has came close to match it, not once.

Also, I've decided that Goku and Vegeta does not beat an incomplete Cell Max. Even though the narration only doubted [using "might"] the authority himself in Toriyama came out and said Picolo is on par with them. An incomplete, injured and weakened Cell Max defeated Orange Piccolo. That means he will defeat Goku or Vegeta the same.

[Skar]

I've always considered the possibility that Beerus had gotten stronger since the Tournament of Power. He implies this by asserting that his power is boundless because his mind is always on Destruction. In a sense, his power is derived from Destruction so constantly invoking it could naturally make him stronger in the same sense that UE Vegeta experiencing pain made him stronger as well.

That's possible. I'm not sure if we'll ever get an official explanation since I assume all the GoDs would be skilled at destruction and UE was a manga only form. I don't think it would be necessary to keep widening the gap between them this close to EoZ. It's unlikely if after all this time UI Goku and the other strongest mortals are still only a tiny percentage of Beerus' power. Maybe Goku was wrong about Broly but it's a weird line to include if Beerus is actually 100x stronger than Broly vs only 2x or something. UI might be Goku's final transformation so the most I'm expecting is one more upgrade to the form to reach Beerus. I could be wrong but it's based on the form still not introduced in the movies yet.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess Beast Gohan and Black Freeza might have a shot against Beerus if they somehow work together. Though, if they don’t finish him quickly, Beerus would eventually turn the tables on them.

[Koitsukai]

If Vegeta were to train under a lot of gravity now, around SH's events, how much gravity could he withstand? assuming a chamber with no limitations is available for him.

At the beginning of DBS Vegeta trains under 150G gravity + some laser-shooting drones, and soon enough he is overwhelmed. Later he'll get the hang of it and take them all down.
I remembered that Android arc filler of Yamcha trying to use the chapter at 300G and failing, so it's odd BoG Vegeta is only training at half of what Yamcha tried or even what he probably was training under at that time, can't recall his greatest feat inside the chamber. Funny coming both from Toei.

So, by now, how much gravity can he tolerate? 500g? more?

[Hellspawn28]

Would Orange Piccolo be strong enough to beat Moro after abosrbing Seven-Three or when he is using his Perfected Ultra Instinct state.

[Miracles]

If Toriyama has Piccolo finally obtaining battle power "on par" with Goku and Vegeta as a plot point then that means he would rival True UI Goku and UE Vegeta. Currently making him stronger than Moro 73.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Vegeta were to train under a lot of gravity now, around SH's events, how much gravity could he withstand? assuming a chamber with no limitations is available for him.

At the beginning of DBS Vegeta trains under 150G gravity + some laser-shooting drones, and soon enough he is overwhelmed. Later he'll get the hang of it and take them all down.
I remembered that Android arc filler of Yamcha trying to use the chapter at 300G and failing, so it's odd BoG Vegeta is only training at half of what Yamcha tried or even what he probably was training under at that time, can't recall his greatest feat inside the chamber. Funny coming both from Toei.

So, by now, how much gravity can he tolerate? 500g? more?

I've seen people suggest Vegeta talked bigger than he could deliever with the 300G chamber, and that he never quite mastered it. I'd rather think he's just using 150G as a warm up, but his feats under it aren't really favorable...

Still, saying this guy makes himself weight 9 tons for a warm up is no small feat, even as a SSJ. Boo Saga Goku was training with 8 tons in base...

But since we never heard from Bulma or Mr. Briefs updating the chamber again, let's assume the Base Saiyans maxed out at 300G before Super. Gravity numbers don't go as wild as power levels, Goku's progression from 100kg clothes (160kg with his own weight) to 6 tons (100G gravity) feels very small compared to his power jumping from below 1000 to 90k, and Vegeta only demanding 3x that with his power on the millions also feels very small. I guess he's on the 400-450G range. He can probably tolerate 500G, but he would get Yamcha'd by it.

Would Orange Piccolo be strong enough to beat Moro after abosrbing Seven-Three or when he is using his Perfected Ultra Instinct state.

If he's supposed to be as strong as UI Goku now, then he'd fold 73 Moro like a tin can. UI Moro would at least give him trouble, and possibly win thanks to either UI or merging with Earth and then blowing up.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Power scaling the movie is kinda hard at the moment.
We are kinda working with unknown values when it comes to characters that have had years of practice since the granola arc. We don’t know how much improvement Goku and Vegeta make in such time, and as far as Broly is concerned, his super hero version is much stronger than his broly movie self according to promotional material and a section of the novel, which would make sense with toriyamas statement on his power as of super hero.

Seems to me that as crazy as it sounds, the broly movie top tiers were surpassed, Even by characters introduced there as well. Hard pill to swallow but it’s not really that unbelievable to think that Gohan could surpass UI Goku with his new form.


Also, we kinda have to come to terms with a brute fact at some point as a fandom when it comes to Beerus. As of right now, we have no idea where he stands outside of being superior to a blue evolution vegeta, that is stronger than an ultra instinct omen Goku, that is stronger than he was in the ToP.

[Goku9001]

I've always considered the possibility that Beerus had gotten stronger since the Tournament of Power. He implies this by asserting that his power is boundless because his mind is always on Destruction. In a sense, his power is derived from Destruction so constantly invoking it could naturally make him stronger in the same sense that UE Vegeta experiencing pain made him stronger as well.

That's possible. I'm not sure if we'll ever get an official explanation since I assume all the GoDs would be skilled at destruction and UE was a manga only form. I don't think it would be necessary to keep widening the gap between them this close to EoZ. It's unlikely if after all this time UI Goku and the other strongest mortals are still only a tiny percentage of Beerus' power. Maybe Goku was wrong about Broly but it's a weird line to include if Beerus is actually 100x stronger than Broly vs only 2x or something. UI might be Goku's final transformation so the most I'm expecting is one more upgrade to the form to reach Beerus. I could be wrong but it's based on the form still not introduced in the movies yet.

I agree with that. Destruction is something only elaborated on in the manga. I mentioned the other continuities because it shows that Beerus is always nonchalant and loafing around in any piece of Toriyama's work. Naturally, that would be what Toriyama wanted to convey rather than him actively training (though I don't doubt some training is taking place considering his usage of UI).

I think Goku's comparison with Broly is weird in the context of the manga. We have a clear confirmation that Beerus is stronger than the Saiyans in the Granolah arc who are much stronger than Moro. And yet, we are told that Moro is the strongest opponent Goku has ever fought. This would include FPSSJ Broly because both Goku and Vegeta had a recollection of him at the beginning of the Moro arc. The logical conclusion here is that Goku misjudged Beerus or was simply wrong. This isn't the first time we've had awkward comparisons. Goku flat-out compared Present Zamasu to Beerus in the anime. Vegetto Blue was compared to Beerus in the manga and there was a supplementary source confirming that Kaioshin misjudged Beerus as well.

[theherodjl]

Why exactly is Gohan Beast's hair white? Is it supposed to be like a reference to SSJ5 since Toyotaro has history with DBAF? Is Beast supposed to serve the role of a canonized SSJ5 and that's why Gohan's power jumps so radically? I can't really find any justification for why Gohan is so strong aside from that.

[Yuji]

Why exactly is Gohan Beast's hair white? Is it supposed to be like a reference to SSJ5 since Toyotaro has history with DBAF? Is Beast supposed to serve the role of a canonized SSJ5 and that's why Gohan's power jumps so radically? I can't really find any justification for why Gohan is so strong aside from that.

It's likely not intended but I like that the white hair mimicks the Kaioshin hair colour, much like the silver hair from UI mimicks the angel hair colour, and purple UE hair mimicks the purple themeing of the GoDs.

[Hugo Boss]

Also, we kinda have to come to terms with a brute fact at some point as a fandom when it comes to Beerus. As of right now, we have no idea where he stands outside of being superior to a blue evolution vegeta, that is stronger than an ultra instinct omen Goku, that is stronger than he was in the ToP.

My educated guess is that he is at least superior to Vegeta from Granolah arc, considering he has more experience with Ultra Ego and millions of years ahead of honing combat skill and battle strategy.

Although to shift the balance of Universe #7, like the Oracle Fish foresaw, I think it would take someone stronger than Beerus. So, whoever the Oracle Fish was talking about is likely someone who could beat Beerus, the one that currently maintains the balance of Universe #7.

[Skar]

I think Goku's comparison with Broly is weird in the context of the manga. We have a clear confirmation that Beerus is stronger than the Saiyans in the Granolah arc who are much stronger than Moro. And yet, we are told that Moro is the strongest opponent Goku has ever fought. This would include FPSSJ Broly because both Goku and Vegeta had a recollection of him at the beginning of the Moro arc. The logical conclusion here is that Goku misjudged Beerus or was simply wrong. This isn't the first time we've had awkward comparisons. Goku flat-out compared Present Zamasu to Beerus in the anime. Vegetto Blue was compared to Beerus in the manga and there was a supplementary source confirming that Kaioshin misjudged Beerus as well.

Yeah I'm curious to see if Toyotaro makes any changes to SH or just doesn't acknowledge manga details that might conflict with it. I think his depiction of UI might conflict with Toriyama's whenever he decided to introduce it in a film especially if it ends up being the final one. The idea of Goku surpassing Beerus with a fully mastered UI could still work in the film continuity. I'm not sure why else Toriyama would be saving it for and not mentioning it in both films set after the ToP. That could still work in the manga since UI is following the similar growth to SSJ first learning to use it at will then mastering it later. It's a little confusing when it's called "mastered UI" but I guess it means mastered as he can control when he turns it on and maybe not complete mastery of the form yet.