Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:41 am

I think Akira Toriyama's general mindset is a bit more generalized, having the fighters with power on par with a God of Destruction being all relative to one another.

That means Jiren, Broly, Gogeta, and Ultra Instinct Goku all being relative to each other, with each one having distinct things that make them better than the others in certain aspects.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:48 pm

Almighty Majin wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:59 am What do you think the power scale in Toriyama's version of events really is?

Personally I think it's something like this (excluding Moro & Granolah arcs):

Gohan Beast >= SSJB Gogeta >= SSJ Full Power Broly >= Cell Max
Jiren = SSJ Broly = SSJ Gogeta = UI Goku (ToP) = Orange Piccolo
SSJB Goku (Broly) = SSJB Vegeta (Broly) = Wrathful Broly = Gogeta = Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 = Ultimate Gohan (SH)
SSJB Goku (ToP) = SSJB Vegeta (ToP) = Golden Freeza (ToP) = Toppo = Ultimate Piccolo (SH)
Ultimate Gohan (ToP) = Android 17 (ToP) = Hit (ToP) = SSJ Kefla = Dyspo
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together (Goku Black Arc)
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku (Goku Black Arc) = SSJB Vegeta (Goku Black Arc) = SSJR Goku Black
SSJB Goku (U6 Tournament) = SSJB Vegeta (U6 Tournament) = Hit (U6 Tournament)
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together (RoF)
Golden Freeza (RoF)
SSJB Goku (RoF) = SSJB Vegeta (RoF)
Golden Freeza (RoF) (Fatigued)
SSJG Goku (BoG)

I have no idea where to place SSJB Vegetto in this scale though since Toriyama originally didn't want to use him until he was recommended to do so. I can't really see Vegetto from the Goku Black arc being equal to Gogeta in the Broly movie, but I do wonder if Toriyama thinks they're equal. Also, Goku Black arc, ToP arc, and Broly movie SSJB Goku and Vegeta might all be the same power wise in Toriyama's eyes now that I think about it... Anyways, I wonder what other people think.
That's probably about right.
That would be the most generalized take, and I assume Toriyama has one that encompasses all media. And seeing that he never gave any multipliers or went into detail in regards of fusion, the gaps are uncharted territory.
Jiren and UI should be on the first tier, though, seeing Jiren is still regarded as a benchmark. They don't seem to be divided into two tiers. The only thing that sets them apart is the manga with Moro, Gas, Granola, etc, without that, they belong to the same tier. Vegito Blue could be up there with them as well, but on the low end. From a general POV, Vegito and Gogeta shouldn't be worlds apart.

I'm inclined to put Gohan a tier above the rest, though, and bringing in the manga, a tier only shared with Black Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Almighty Majin » Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:27 pm

Alright I'm going to do a revised version of this hypothetical Toriyama powerscale based on the feedback:

BoG - U6 Tournament:
SSJB Goku (Time Chamber Training) = SSJB Vegeta (Time Chamber Training) = Hit
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together
Golden Freeza
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta
Golden Freeza (Fatigued)
SSJG Goku

Goku Black - Super Hero:
Gohan Beast
Gogeta Blue >= Vegetto Blue >= SSJ Full Power Broly >= Cell Max
UI Goku = Jiren = Orange Piccolo
SSJ Broly = SSJ Gogeta
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta = Golden Freeza = Wrathful Broly = Gogeta = Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 = Ultimate Gohan
SSJR Goku Black = Android 17 = Hit = SSJ Kefla = Dyspo = Ultimate Piccolo

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:16 pm

Almighty Majin wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:27 pm Alright I'm going to do a revised version of this hypothetical Toriyama powerscale based on the feedback:

BoG - U6 Tournament:
SSJB Goku (Time Chamber Training) = SSJB Vegeta (Time Chamber Training) = Hit
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together
Golden Freeza
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta
Golden Freeza (Fatigued)
SSJG Goku

Goku Black - Super Hero:
Gohan Beast
Gogeta Blue >= Vegetto Blue >= SSJ Full Power Broly >= Cell Max
UI Goku = Jiren = Orange Piccolo
SSJ Broly = SSJ Gogeta
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta = Golden Freeza = Wrathful Broly = Gogeta = Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 = Ultimate Gohan
SSJR Goku Black = Android 17 = Hit = SSJ Kefla = Dyspo = Ultimate Piccolo
The time chamber before the U6 gave them basically no gains, as mentioned in the manga/anime, certainly not above the previous two working together. Hit is a good chunk weaker, just has hax powers.
Golden Freeza fatigued is a spectrum of power, at it's lowest it'd be below God.

The second part is about right.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:34 pm

Almighty Majin wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:59 am What do you think the power scale in Toriyama's version of events really is?

Personally I think it's something like this (excluding Moro & Granolah arcs):

Gohan Beast >= SSJB Gogeta >= SSJ Full Power Broly >= Cell Max
Jiren = SSJ Broly = SSJ Gogeta = UI Goku (ToP) = Orange Piccolo
SSJB Goku (Broly) = SSJB Vegeta (Broly) = Wrathful Broly = Gogeta = Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 = Ultimate Gohan (SH)
SSJB Goku (ToP) = SSJB Vegeta (ToP) = Golden Freeza (ToP) = Toppo = Ultimate Piccolo (SH)
Ultimate Gohan (ToP) = Android 17 (ToP) = Hit (ToP) = SSJ Kefla = Dyspo
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together (Goku Black Arc)
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku (Goku Black Arc) = SSJB Vegeta (Goku Black Arc) = SSJR Goku Black
SSJB Goku (U6 Tournament) = SSJB Vegeta (U6 Tournament) = Hit (U6 Tournament)
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together (RoF)
Golden Freeza (RoF)
SSJB Goku (RoF) = SSJB Vegeta (RoF)
Golden Freeza (RoF) (Fatigued)
SSJG Goku (BoG)

I have no idea where to place SSJB Vegetto in this scale though since Toriyama originally didn't want to use him until he was recommended to do so. I can't really see Vegetto from the Goku Black arc being equal to Gogeta in the Broly movie, but I do wonder if Toriyama thinks they're equal. Also, Goku Black arc, ToP arc, and Broly movie SSJB Goku and Vegeta might all be the same power wise in Toriyama's eyes now that I think about it... Anyways, I wonder what other people think.
There's only two things I can never be sure of: The gains midway through the FT Saga and 17's placement.

Going with the overall narrative Goku and Vegeta don't seem to improve a lot if at all as SSJBs, so it's quite a mystery as to how Goku Black would fall behind by so much that even Merged Zamasu would struggle against them.

17 is most likely on SSJB level, flat out shown in the anime and strongly implied in the manga. He was seemingly unable to beat Dyspo however, even though he was casually swatted away by SSJB Vegeta. With such a difference in how each medium portrays 17 and Dyspo, I'm not sure what AT's original intent was besides "Very strong". We can't even be sure if Dyspo having super speed isn't a anime-only feature.

I made a tier list about this a while ago, and I think this was more or less what I had:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:04 pm

We don't know Jirens current power, though we can assume he trained of course.

It's likely to be

Gohan Beast > Cell Max >= LSS Broly > SSB Gogeta(from Broly movie) = LSS Broly(from Broly movie) > SS Gogeta(from Broly movie) = SS Broly(from Broly movie).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:37 pm

So if you believe fusions get lower multipliers for transformations then which ones do you use?

SS:
SS2:
SS3:
SSG:
SSB:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:43 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:34 pm There's only two things I can never be sure of: The gains midway through the FT Saga and 17's placement.

Going with the overall narrative Goku and Vegeta don't seem to improve a lot if at all as SSJBs, so it's quite a mystery as to how Goku Black would fall behind by so much that even Merged Zamasu would struggle against them.

17 is most likely on SSJB level, flat out shown in the anime and strongly implied in the manga. He was seemingly unable to beat Dyspo however, even though he was casually swatted away by SSJB Vegeta. With such a difference in how each medium portrays 17 and Dyspo, I'm not sure what AT's original intent was besides "Very strong". We can't even be sure if Dyspo having super speed isn't a anime-only feature.
Goku Black probably wasn’t able to replicate Goku’s mastery over Super Saiyan Blue, so he used the other Zamasu to keep Super Saiyan Rosé stable. At a point we do see Merged Zamasu’s ki being disrupted by the intense pressure his body was taking, so this theory has some basis.

I see 17 strength on the same general level of Super Saiyan Blue but due to his infinite stamina and defensive capabilities. Ultimate Piccolo’s level seems to be a good placement, I like it.

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:37 pm So if you believe fusions get lower multipliers for transformations then which ones do you use?
SS: 2x
SS2: 3x
SS3: 4x
SSG: 5x
SSB: 10x

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Almighty Majin » Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:18 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:34 pm I made a tier list about this a while ago, and I think this was more or less what I had:
I really like this list. If I were to remake my list based on this one, I think it would be something like this:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am

Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:30 am

picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
Well, Vegeta one-shotted Cui when they were respectivelly 24k and 18k in power level. So it would seem a 25% difference would be enough most of times as per the show's standards.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:05 pm

Thani wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:30 am
picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
Well, Vegeta one-shotted Cui when they were respectivelly 24k and 18k in power level. So it would seem a 25% difference would be enough most of times as per the show's standards.
Also, both of them weren't completely fresh since they fought Gas for a bit before getting wrecked by Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:11 pm

Thani wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:30 am
picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
Well, Vegeta one-shotted Cui when they were respectivelly 24k and 18k in power level. So it would seem a 25% difference would be enough most of times as per the show's standards.
Do we account for that Vegeta killed Cui while Freeza just knocked the two out of their forms and incapacitated them?

What Freeza did seems more comparable to what Goku did to Recoome.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:31 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:37 pm So if you believe fusions get lower multipliers for transformations then which ones do you use?

SS:
SS2:
SS3:
SSG:
SSB:
Finally giving in, eh? :lol:

SSJ: 2.5x
SSJ2: 3.125x (1.25x SSJ)
SSJ3: 5x (2x SSJ)
SSJG: 10x
SSJB: 12.5x

This is on the smaller side, but they’re built around Omen being 50x Blue and UI being some 2x that. Here’s a look at how I have it:
I end up having SSJG Gogeta > Broly, but that’s passable I guess.
picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
1.5x is my guess. It looked a lot like Goku vs Ginyu Force.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:15 pm

picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:11 pm
Thani wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:30 am
picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
Well, Vegeta one-shotted Cui when they were respectivelly 24k and 18k in power level. So it would seem a 25% difference would be enough most of times as per the show's standards.
Do we account for that Vegeta killed Cui while Freeza just knocked the two out of their forms and incapacitated them?

What Freeza did seems more comparable to what Goku did to Recoome.
About that, if I recall, Ginyu estimated that Goku's power level should be around 60k in order to defeat Recoome like he did (in one blow, according to Jeice, but we know he used more strikes). I remember something about Recoome being in the 40k range, which is more or less between 20 to 30% below 60k. So that number would still check out? To be fair, Recoome was also fighting Vegeta for a while and was definitely damaged so was probably below his full power (i guess?).

Neither Goku nor Freeza wanted to outright kill their opponents but were still capable of taking them down in one hit. But that would suggest that Gas was never 25% stronger than Goku or Vegeta, since he couldn't manage to kill them despite trying to do it as fast as he could.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:16 am

Thani wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:15 pm
picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:11 pm
Thani wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:30 am

Well, Vegeta one-shotted Cui when they were respectivelly 24k and 18k in power level. So it would seem a 25% difference would be enough most of times as per the show's standards.
Do we account for that Vegeta killed Cui while Freeza just knocked the two out of their forms and incapacitated them?

What Freeza did seems more comparable to what Goku did to Recoome.
About that, if I recall, Ginyu estimated that Goku's power level should be around 60k in order to defeat Recoome like he did (in one blow, according to Jeice, but we know he used more strikes). I remember something about Recoome being in the 40k range, which is more or less between 20 to 30% below 60k. So that number would still check out? To be fair, Recoome was also fighting Vegeta for a while and was definitely damaged so was probably below his full power (i guess?).

Neither Goku nor Freeza wanted to outright kill their opponents but were still capable of taking them down in one hit. But that would suggest that Gas was never 25% stronger than Goku or Vegeta, since he couldn't manage to kill them despite trying to do it as fast as he could.
Yeah, its interesting. Vegeta also wasnt more than a few thousand stronger than Dodoria but ragdolled him easily and killed him even easier. I agree Gas was never insanely stronger than Goku and Vegeta, especially as he had trouble penetrating Goku’s full defense mode in blue.

I suppose there’s no knowing for sure how much stronger Freeza was, but the 25-30% checks out mathematicaly for an incapaciting but not killing blow.

Although he was so flippant about it, its possible he could have killed them if he wanted to.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:35 am

picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
I may be the odd man out in this what’s estimation. But I wouldn’t be surprised that he is five to ten times stronger than them. The reason why I think this was, he prob saw and remembered Gogeta Blue and Broly. So when he trained for all that time in the time chamber, he probably not only wanted to surpass them. But make sure they could not touch him. So I think he is way stronger than what we’re thinking.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:54 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:35 am
picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
I may be the odd man out in this what if estimation. But I wouldn’t be surprised that he is five to ten times stronger than them. The reason why I think this was, he prob saw and remembered Gogeta Blue and Broly. So when he trained for all that time in the time chamber, he probably not only wanted to surpass them. But make sure they could not touch him. So I think he is way stronger than what we’re thinking.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:12 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:31 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:37 pm So if you believe fusions get lower multipliers for transformations then which ones do you use?

SS:
SS2:
SS3:
SSG:
SSB:
Finally giving in, eh? :lol:

SSJ: 2.5x
SSJ2: 3.125x (1.25x SSJ)
SSJ3: 5x (2x SSJ)
SSJG: 10x
SSJB: 12.5x

This is on the smaller side, but they’re built around Omen being 50x Blue and UI being some 2x that. Here’s a look at how I have it:
I end up having SSJG Gogeta > Broly, but that’s passable I guess.
picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
1.5x is my guess. It looked a lot like Goku vs Ginyu Force.
What choice do I have lol?

Either I use smaller multipliers or I have to have SSB Gogeta and Broly be like a thousand times stronger than the ToP and since Super Hero lumped Broly with Jiren then that's impossible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:37 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:37 pm So if you believe fusions get lower multipliers for transformations then which ones do you use?

SS:
SS2:
SS3:
SSG:
SSB:
I like Hugo's and GS123's numbers but I'll go with much smaller numbers:

SS: 2x base
SS2: 1.25x SS
SS3: 2x SS2
SSG: 2x SS3
SSB: 2x SSG

SSB Goku: 10
SS Broly: 50
Base Gogeta: 30
--SS: 60
--SS2: 75
--SS3: 150
--SSG: 300
--SSB: 600
FPSS Broly: 500 (10x, it could be gradual, not 10x right off the bat)
So, a 20x boost for a SSB fusion. It isn't completely impossible if we consider Sign being half of UI, but I know it clashes with the much bigger multipliers seen in the anime. But if blue fusion and UI have to be relatively close to one another, then I think it could be higher than 20x but not much more than that.

However, I also liked Kaboom's take that fusion might start big but the subsequent forms aren't providing larger boosts. This one might work better for the manga:

SS: 2x
SS2: 1.5x SS
SS3: 1.25x SS2
SSG: 1.25xSS3
SSB: 1.5x SSG

Base Vegito: 15
Merged Zamasu: 10
SSB Vegito: 105 (Less than 10x, kinda weak, I know, but Vegito had to dodge Zamasu's attacks, and while clearly stronger, he wasn't fingerflicking him)

Reading the discussion that the Granola arc didn't have more than 2x gap between the fighters, a 20-fold boost ouf of fusion seems like a respectable boost.

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