Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Super Saiyan 4 does use GGA's power, but then it adds on the users potential. The literal actual proof is SS4 Goku vs GGA Baby Vegeta. Just SS Baby Vegeta alone was stronger than SS3 Goku. The power gap created after that with SB1 and the SB2 would make it impossible for GGA to equal SS4 in power, there is no other option other than SS4 is far beyong GGA in power.

Baby Vegeta evolutions merely add Vegeta’s power with the power Baby collected from others. It doesn’t follow the same pattern of Super Saiyan multipliers.

Naturally, if Vegeta is becoming GGA, the power Baby collected is what he needs to close the gap with GGA Goku, as Vegeta was not his equal in Dragon Ball GT, at least not until he achieved SS4 himself.

So, GGA Baby Vegeta rivaling SS4 Goku was just a plot convenience. It’s not supposed to refute what GT Perfect Files says here.

Anyway, I don’t see why anyone didn’t think about this case before, since it’s the best example of what Toriyama suggests in his Cell Max comment.

[QuakingStar]

The power difference was clear in the literal source material. SS Baby Vegeta shit on SS3 Goku. GGA Baby Vegeta is atronomically stronger than SS Baby Vegeta. I don't really care what you THINK about it, I'm saying that SS4 has GGA's power and more because the literal series showed that. Toriyama didn't make GT and he did not make GGA or SS4, so no again.

[Miracles]

Not when Super Hero has it said that Beerus is said to be the most fearsome in the universe.

Oh really? When was that said? That would be a huge help in understanding Toriyama's thought process.

Here you go...

Spoiler:

According to the manga, Sidra "saved" Belmond from a Beerus hand blast.

That doesn't tell us much since they all seemed to be relatively close. The gap between Beerus and Belmond should be less than Vegeta vs Cui since that blast likely wouldn't have killed them and only knocked them out. Broly being close to Beerus could still work if he was intended to be stronger than some of those GoDs. I recall your argument was that Beerus would keep getting retconned to be the strongest until the end. It would make sense the gap between them gets smaller and smaller as we get closer to that ending.

Relatively close? 11 gods couldn't touch Beerus at once nor could their eye keep up with him on panel. Then Sidra needed to save Belmond from a blast. It doesn't matter if its going to kill or KO Belmond. The point is he was helpless against the attack to the point he needed to be saved. That's a huge gap looking at it one on one.

[Skar]

Relatively close? 11 gods couldn't touch Beerus at once nor could their eye keep up with him on panel. Then Sidra needed to save Belmond from a blast. It doesn't matter if its going to kill or KO Belmond. The point is he was helpless against the attack to the point he needed to be saved. That's a huge gap looking at it one on one.

It wasn't like Gohan vs the Cell Jrs and he easily killed them without taking any damage. Beerus was mostly dodging them at the beginning. When it became a free for all, they were all using their special attacks and it seemed all the GoDs were almost equally affected by them. Only two GoDs left standing in bad shape and most were still conscious but on the ground. We've seen Champa and Beerus battle before and they relatively close with Beerus being slightly stronger.

[Miracles]

Relatively close? 11 gods couldn't touch Beerus at once nor could their eye keep up with him on panel. Then Sidra needed to save Belmond from a blast. It doesn't matter if its going to kill or KO Belmond. The point is he was helpless against the attack to the point he needed to be saved. That's a huge gap looking at it one on one.

It wasn't like Gohan vs the Cell Jrs and he easily killed them without taking any damage. Beerus was mostly dodging them at the beginning. When it became a free for all, they were all using their special attacks and it seemed all the GoDs were almost equally affected by them. Only two GoDs left standing in bad shape and most were still conscious but on the ground. We've seen Champa and Beerus battle before and they relatively close with Beerus being slightly stronger.

On panel, fighting 11 gods of destruction at once, Beerus took no damage. And a HANDFUL of them including Belmond was going to get one shotted. Yes much better than Gohan vs Cell Jrs.

[Hugo Boss]

The power difference was clear in the literal source material. SS Baby Vegeta shit on SS3 Goku. GGA Baby Vegeta is atronomically stronger than SS Baby Vegeta. I don't really care what you THINK about it, I'm saying that SS4 has GGA's power and more because the literal series showed that. Toriyama didn't make GT and he did not make GGA or SS4, so no again.

Wow, dude. I never said Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball GT or anything like that. I’m just bringing up an example of what happens when a behemoth converts itself into a warrior. It’s a single example among others that you might have seen or not. But I guess it doesn’t matter to you, right?

I seriously don’t see anything remarkably different between those two forms considering what the tv series showed. And if you feel like you don’t need to explain your reasoning here that’s okay.

[Skar]

On panel, fighting 11 gods of destruction at once, Beerus took no damage. And a HANDFUL of them including Belmond was going to get one shotted. Yes much better than Gohan vs Cell Jrs.

We have completely different interpretations of that battle then. I'm still trying to understand how much stronger you think Beerus is. Is UI, the fusions, Broly, Cell Max, etc 1% of his power or more? Vegeta was barely 30% stronger than Cui and Dodoria when he killed them. Ginyu assumed Goku had a PL of 60,000 when defeated the three Ginyu members in the 40,000 range. I don't see anything implying the gap between the GoDs was even that "big" since it was already confirmed before that Beerus was slightly stronger than Champa. That would mean anyone doing better than Champa in that battle would've been even closer to Beerus.

[Goku9001]

Not when Super Hero has it said that Beerus is said to be the most fearsome in the universe.

Oh really? When was that said? That would be a huge help in understanding Toriyama's thought process.

Here you go...

Spoiler:

Awesome! That would mean that Goku recognizes Beerus as the strongest because the only people she would've obtained that knowledge logically would be Goku, Vegeta, and perhaps Whis. Goku was the one who introduced Cheelaih to the concept of a Hakaishin.

I think this is a great point to consider, thank you.

[Koitsukai]

As of now, I think we can only accept Beerus and Quitela are worlds above the other GoDs, and were holding back (even though they were specifically told not to), Beerus was using an incomplete form of UI instead of his true real power, so I guess he was fooling around all along, up until he had to face Quitela. An in-universe reason for Beerus to try UI instead of hakai could be he knew a fight lasting two blows would not be interesting for Zeno.

This way we can fit over 10 people between Vermouth and Beerus, without them being 1 unit of power stronger than the other, which we know it's not the case, just by looking only at the gap between Moro 73 and UI Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

On panel, fighting 11 gods of destruction at once, Beerus took no damage. And a HANDFUL of them including Belmond was going to get one shotted. Yes much better than Gohan vs Cell Jrs.

No damage? He came out beaten to a pulp and needed to be healed at the end, and it wasn't even a 1v11 anymore. He just used proto-UI do dodge a bit in the beginning and didn't even one damage Champa when he punched him into the sky.

Gohan was straight up chopping the Jrs in half. No Jr would ever have blocked a charged Ki ball from him.

As of now, I think we can only accept Beerus and Quitela are worlds above the other GoDs, and were holding back (even though they were specifically told not to), Beerus was using an incomplete form of UI instead of his true real power, so I guess he was fooling around all along, up until he had to face Quitela. An in-universe reason for Beerus to try UI instead of hakai could be he knew a fight lasting two blows would not be interesting for Zeno.

This way we can fit over 10 people between Vermouth and Beerus, without them being 1 unit of power stronger than the other, which we know it's not the case, just by looking only at the gap between Moro 73 and UI Goku.

The Granolah Saga already explained why Beerus is still so powerful: Ultra Ego, although the specific name came from Vegeta, he transformed from what Beerus taught him, and apparently it's an ability most (if not all) Hakaishins have.

[Mr Baggins]

Beerus (and probably Quitela) is almost certainly far above any of the other Gods of Destruction. They were ganging on him and yet he handled them all with ease while his Not-UI was still effective, Sidra commented on how they all would have been toast without his barrier, we can see Beerus/Quitela punching other GoDs into unconsciousness, and Vermoud/Belmod had to resort to non-violent methods like playing possum just to have a chance at winning. That whole match coming down exclusively to Beerus and Quitela, strength-wise, should tell people something.

You've also got Beerus and then Iwan (two chapters later) suggesting that Goku and Vegeta qualified for the basic God of Destruction "level" a long time ago. He's just exceptionally strong and they likely still haven't closed the gap yet, despite overcoming Jiren.

[QuakingStar]

Beerus (and probably Quitela) is almost certainly far above any of the other Gods of Destruction. They were ganging on him and yet he handled them all with ease while his Not-UI was still effective, Sidra commented on how they all would have been toast without his barrier, we can see Beerus/Quitela punching other GoDs into unconsciousness, and Vermoud/Belmod had to resort to non-violent methods like playing possum just to have a chance at winning. That whole match coming down exclusively to Beerus and Quitela, strength-wise, should tell people something.

You've also got Beerus and then Iwan (two chapters later) suggesting that Goku and Vegeta qualified for the basic God of Destruction "level" a long time ago. He's just exceptionally strong and they likely still haven't closed the gap yet, despite overcoming Jiren.

Belmod wasn't hurt despite fighting up until that last stretch, he definitely seemed to be holding back and Whis said he was stronger than Beerus even if it was a joking moment. I think Belmod is at least close to those two he's just more sly and didn't want to fight when he could just trick them all.

[Skar]

The thing that confuses me is that Beerus was only slightly stronger than Champa in the U6 saga. If Beerus is a 10 then Champa might be a 9 and any GoDs who performed better than Champa would be between that. Beerus' power relative to SSJG was retconned but gap between him and Whis might still be the same. Whis was 50% stronger on the old scale and could KO Beerus without much effort which works with we've seen in DBZ. I assume Toriyama wouldn't have any GoDs that far apart based on every fight and how none of them went down that easily.

[Miracles]

On panel, fighting 11 gods of destruction at once, Beerus took no damage. And a HANDFUL of them including Belmond was going to get one shotted. Yes much better than Gohan vs Cell Jrs.

No damage? He came out beaten to a pulp and needed to be healed at the end, and it wasn't even a 1v11 anymore. He just used proto-UI do dodge a bit in the beginning and didn't even one damage Champa when he punched him into the sky.

Gohan was straight up chopping the Jrs in half. No Jr would ever have blocked a charged Ki ball from him.

I'm speaking only at the start. Hence "on panel."

Oh really? When was that said? That would be a huge help in understanding Toriyama's thought process.

Here you go...

Spoiler:

Awesome! That would mean that Goku recognizes Beerus as the strongest because the only people she would've obtained that knowledge logically would be Goku, Vegeta, and perhaps Whis. Goku was the one who introduced Cheelaih to the concept of a Hakaishin.

I think this is a great point to consider, thank you.

Yes. Remember in battle of gods Goku himself stated that Beerus is the strongest in the universe. Beerus confirms him and says he realizes his "terror" and that he is second to none other than Whis. In the Broly movie Goku had to explain to Broly, Cheelai and Lemo who Beerus was when attempting a comparison between Broly and Beerus. Now that consistent theme of Beerus being the strongest is maintained in Super Hero. Having Cheelai say that Beerus is the most "fearsome" in the universe. Coupling with Toriyama's statement that only Broly would lose to a Cell Max if completed, not Beerus. Upholding Beerus strongest status some more.

On panel, fighting 11 gods of destruction at once, Beerus took no damage. And a HANDFUL of them including Belmond was going to get one shotted. Yes much better than Gohan vs Cell Jrs.

We have completely different interpretations of that battle then. I'm still trying to understand how much stronger you think Beerus is. Is UI, the fusions, Broly, Cell Max, etc 1% of his power or more? Vegeta was barely 30% stronger than Cui and Dodoria when he killed them. Ginyu assumed Goku had a PL of 60,000 when defeated the three Ginyu members in the 40,000 range. I don't see anything implying the gap between the GoDs was even that "big" since it was already confirmed before that Beerus was slightly stronger than Champa. That would mean anyone doing better than Champa in that battle would've been even closer to Beerus.

Champa was out of shape. So he isn't close to Beerus during the god battle. Yet he was doing no better than any other god on panel.
There is no interpretation for the on panel battle when all the gods attacked Beerus at once and he dodged them all and they couldn't keep up with him and was going to blow a handful of them away [Including Champa]. There is no better feat in the entire story of DB Super than this.

As far as how strong Beerus is compared to the people you mentioned there is no percent. However, Beerus is a lot stronger than Jiren/Belmond since we have transgressed two arcs [Broly/Super Hero] in the movies and three in the manga [Broly/Galactic Patrol/Granolah] since the TOP. The story has Beerus the man still.

[Mr Baggins]

Whis said he was stronger than Beerus even if it was a joking moment.

That scene was exclusive to the anime. I'm referring to the manga, which describes a completely different arm wrestling scenario.

Belmod didn't perform any better than his cohorts during their initial team-up, and the thrust of catching Sidra off-guard and later playing "dead" was to illustrate how shrewd he is compared to others in his position. There's no strong implication that he's physically the cream of the crop in the manga – in fact, he's weaker than Jiren in combat ability.

The thing that confuses me is that Beerus was only slightly stronger than Champa in the U6 saga.

I don't recall that being implied. Chapter 6 shows a skirmish between Beerus and Champa "a long time ago" (possibly millions of years prior to the start of the series) which may not reflect their current standing, and even then, Champa looked quite a bit more flustered than Beerus. In the exhibition, Beerus is able to casually punch Champa into the air and use him as a decoy before any of the other GoDs, all of whom were focused on taking Beerus out, could notice. That's no small feat and just adds to everything else in that match that directly insinuates he's considerably stronger.

This shouldn't be surprising, though. If Beerus is above Jiren who (in turn) is above Belmod in strength, as is suggested in the manga, it checks out.

[Skar]

I don't recall that being implied. Chapter 6 shows a skirmish between Beerus and Champa "a long time ago" (possibly millions of years prior to the start of the series) which may not reflect their current standing, and even then, Champa looked quite a bit more flustered than Beerus. In the exhibition, Beerus is able to casually punch Champa into the air and use him as a decoy before any of the other GoDs, all of whom were focused on taking Beerus out, could notice. That's no small feat and just adds to everything else in that match that directly insinuates he's considerably stronger.

This shouldn't be surprising, though. If Beerus is above Jiren who (in turn) is above Belmod in strength, as is suggested in the manga, it checks out.

I guess it might've been the anime that implied Champa was only slightly weaker since I didn't see it in the manga when I doublechecked. Based on Whis being 50% stronger than Beerus in BoG, I assumed Toriyama wouldn't have that much of a difference between Beerus and Champa since Beerus can't do the same. These battles were written by Toyotaro so maybe he had a different idea in mind how that difference would show.

I just think it would be difficult to fit all the characters and forms stronger than Jiren in the manga between Belmond and Beerus unless Beerus was several times stronger. The films would require less of a difference since we haven't seen Beerus fight any other GoDs in that continuity and it could work for him to only be slightly stronger than Broly or Cell Max. The films always have some timeskip so the next one could be a year later in the same year as EoZ and they surpass him by then. It might not work in the manga depending on how much weaker Toyotaro has them now.

[Mr Baggins]

I just think it would be difficult to fit all the characters and forms stronger than Jiren in the manga between Belmond and Beerus unless Beerus was several times stronger.

Given the evidence, I think it's safe to assume there's a big gap. That's not to say that multiple GoDs together couldn't give Beerus trouble or wear him down over time, which is pretty much what happened, but I imagine any 1-on-1 conflict to progress similarly to the two fights we see between Beerus and Vegeta in the manga; an unperturbed, low difficulty win for Beerus. It's likewise probable that if Goku and Vegeta fought him at the same time, he'd work up more of a sweat.

Regarding the films, the manga specifically seems to operate as a companion piece to those, so I've always used the same scaling for both. Toriyama's major involvement in the manga supports this. There can be hiccups, of course, but I think they mainly come down to differing production timelines (i.e. Super Hero).

[Skar]

Given the evidence, I think it's safe to assume there's a big gap. That's not to say that multiple GoDs together couldn't give Beerus trouble or wear him down over time, which is pretty much what happened, but I imagine any 1-on-1 conflict to progress similarly to the two fights we see between Beerus and Vegeta in the manga; an unperturbed, low difficulty win for Beerus. It's likewise probable that if Goku and Vegeta fought him at the same time, he'd work up more of a sweat.

Regarding the films, the manga specifically seems to operate as a companion piece to those, so I've always used the same scaling for both. Toriyama's major involvement in the manga supports this. There can be hiccups, of course, but I think they mainly come down to differing production timelines (i.e. Super Hero).

That's true but the film continuity has fewer forms so the gap might be less. Goku and Vegeta only have regular Blue and Goku might not have used UI since the ToP. There's still a possibility of Goku surpassing Beerus with UI once it's introduced in the film continuity. It might be harder in the manga since he already learned to use it at will and unlocked another version above it while still being weaker than Black Freeza who should still be weaker than Beerus.

[Almighty Majin]

What do you think the power scale in Toriyama's version of events really is?

Personally I think it's something like this (excluding Moro & Granolah arcs):

Gohan Beast >= SSJB Gogeta >= SSJ Full Power Broly >= Cell Max
Jiren = SSJ Broly = SSJ Gogeta = UI Goku (ToP) = Orange Piccolo
SSJB Goku (Broly) = SSJB Vegeta (Broly) = Wrathful Broly = Gogeta = Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 = Ultimate Gohan (SH)
SSJB Goku (ToP) = SSJB Vegeta (ToP) = Golden Freeza (ToP) = Toppo = Ultimate Piccolo (SH)
Ultimate Gohan (ToP) = Android 17 (ToP) = Hit (ToP) = SSJ Kefla = Dyspo
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together (Goku Black Arc)
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku (Goku Black Arc) = SSJB Vegeta (Goku Black Arc) = SSJR Goku Black
SSJB Goku (U6 Tournament) = SSJB Vegeta (U6 Tournament) = Hit (U6 Tournament)
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together (RoF)
Golden Freeza (RoF)
SSJB Goku (RoF) = SSJB Vegeta (RoF)
Golden Freeza (RoF) (Fatigued)
SSJG Goku (BoG)

I have no idea where to place SSJB Vegetto in this scale though since Toriyama originally didn't want to use him until he was recommended to do so. I can't really see Vegetto from the Goku Black arc being equal to Gogeta in the Broly movie, but I do wonder if Toriyama thinks they're equal. Also, Goku Black arc, ToP arc, and Broly movie SSJB Goku and Vegeta might all be the same power wise in Toriyama's eyes now that I think about it... Anyways, I wonder what other people think.

[ZombieVito]

What do you think the power scale in Toriyama's version of events really is?

Personally I think it's something like this (excluding Moro & Granolah arcs):

Gohan Beast >= SSJB Gogeta >= SSJ Full Power Broly >= Cell Max
Jiren = SSJ Broly = SSJ Gogeta = UI Goku (ToP) = Orange Piccolo

I don't know about these. The Cell Max vs Orange Piccolo fight never implied the difference between their fresh selves to be hundreds, maybe even thousand of times (SS -> SSB) apart.