Non-thread-worthy discussions

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Zephyr
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Zephyr » Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:30 pm

What is most intrinsically valuable to the protagonists generally (but most specifically Goku himself) is the purity of The Fight™, to seek out new challenges and push beyond one's own limits. The martial artist protagonists obviously don't want the world to be taken over or destroyed by evil people. Usually, making sure the world is safe from evil and seeking new challenges are compatible interests. However, when they are not, the former is the one to take a backseat for as long as possible. That's why they didn't kill Gero before he could sic his creations on the world, and that's why Goku and Vegeta didn't simply fuse to kill Boo. It's why Piccolo gets a free shot at the tournament, it's why he and Vegeta are spared, and it's why Freeza is allowed to power up to 100%.

When there's no world-ending threat in the first place? Martial arts tournaments! So I guess it's not "fighting for its own sake"; it's "fighting for the sake of the challenge and for the sake of pushing one's limits". You might say that's basically just "fighting for its own sake but with extra words", and you'd probably be right. Is that supposed to be controversial or problematic though? Is it a failing or a weakness of the story, for martial artists to be primarily motivated to seek challenge and push their limits? I don't see why.

Dragon Ball is a story about martial artist protagonists, fighting martial artist antagonists, in a universe tailor-made for martial artists and martial arts. The gods of Earth, and of the afterlife, are martial arts masters who provide valuable training. When demons and aliens show up, they're using their bodies and their chi to engage in combat (usually one-on-one) with the protagonists, rather than spooky magic advanced scientific weaponry (and when spooky magic and advanced magic are employed, it's usually to further the martial arts-y stuff anyway). Vegeta and Nappa treat the fight between the Earthlings and the Saibaimen as a mock tournament, and the Ginyus do something similar. Even when Dr. Gero seeks revenge on Goku, he both creates fighters and upgrades himself into a combatant!

It all makes plenty of sense to me. Even before it was suggested that Toriyama riff on Journey to the West, it was suggested that he riff on Jackie Chan kung fu movies. After his Journey to the West riff proved unpopular, he started riffing on Fist of the North Star and Bruce Lee kung fu movies.

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Peril
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Peril » Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:35 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:25 pm While the Piccolo Daimao arc has greater stakes, Goku's motivation is revenge, not saving the world. While I like superhero stories, end of the world stakes can begin to feel boring after a while. Having personal reasons and stakes, which can be something as simple as wanting to test themselves, is refreshing. Saving the world, universe, and multiverse in DB work as plots but I'm not that interested in those sorts of stakes. I'm not that interested in plot in general much anymore.
Thats understandable. Having lower stakes is actually what I prefer. Its easy to hit the spectacle ceiling and I think DB hit it a looooooooooooooong time ago.

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Koitsukai
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Apr 15, 2023 1:29 pm

I've seen a couple of times Goku and Gohan getting on a horse, after easily deflecting a ki blast, and saying this is how ki is actually used, and do an air-blast thing, kinda like a Force push... only, to later on, not use ki as they just had said it's supposed to be used, and do regular ki blasts and on occasions going nuts with them :lol: .

I think this is a Toei exclusive thing, though.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:10 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 1:29 pm I've seen a couple of times Goku and Gohan getting on a horse, after easily deflecting a ki blast, and saying this is how ki is actually used, and do an air-blast thing, kinda like a Force push... only, to later on, not use ki as they just had said it's supposed to be used, and do regular ki blasts and on occasions going nuts with them :lol: .

I think this is a Toei exclusive thing, though.
Huh, when did they do that? I'm drawing a complete blank in my mind for such occasions

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ZeroNeonix
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:20 pm

I remember Roshi using an invisible ki wave like a gust of air to try to push someone out of the arena during one of the tournaments in Dragon Ball, but that's the only thing I can think of when it comes to wind-like ki attacks. Funny thing about ki is that it can do basically anything, if the user has the talent. You can use it to fly, throw it as a projectile like a magic missile, use it to heal...

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Koitsukai
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:05 pm

dbgtFO wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:10 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 1:29 pm I've seen a couple of times Goku and Gohan getting on a horse, after easily deflecting a ki blast, and saying this is how ki is actually used, and do an air-blast thing, kinda like a Force push... only, to later on, not use ki as they just had said it's supposed to be used, and do regular ki blasts and on occasions going nuts with them :lol: .

I think this is a Toei exclusive thing, though.
Huh, when did they do that? I'm drawing a complete blank in my mind for such occasions
SS4 Goku did it vs Baby, Gohan has done it as well, I think vs Super Buu.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:42 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:05 pm
dbgtFO wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:10 pm Huh, when did they do that? I'm drawing a complete blank in my mind for such occasions
SS4 Goku did it vs Baby, Gohan has done it as well, I think vs Super Buu.
Ah well I barely watched GT, so that figures and I can't recall much from Gohan vs Super Buu, except the really memorable stuff.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by SilverPlaqueVII » Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:13 pm

Though I chose not to say, has anyone heard about Allison Sumrall? She did the voice of Princess Snake in the orange brick releases back in 2005 before Colleen Clinkenbard assumed the current role from Kai.

Before I dig deeper, she has voiced in most of ADV/Sentai dubs like Tamako Market, Amagi Brilliant Park, My Neighbor Seki, To LOVE-Ru and Monster Musume.
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MasenkoHA
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:17 pm

SilverPlaqueVII wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:13 pm Though I chose not to say, has anyone heard about Allison Sumrall? She did the voice of Princess Snake in the orange brick releases back in 2005 before Colleen Clinkenbard assumed the current role from Kai.
.
Clinkenbeard voiced Princess Snake for the UUE/Orange Brick version. Sumrall just voiced one of her handmaidens.

There is no Princess Snake in Kai

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Noah » Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:09 pm

ATA wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:36 am
Noah wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:15 pm It bothers me that since the day DBS last episode aired until today, we've never had a guide book like Daizenshuu for this same series.
Maybe since interviews are accessible now with online translations, we can treat interviews like we treat the Daizenshuu?
While that could be a thing, I don't think it could be a excuse for not having an official guide of the series. I would love to learn more about the show and things that were left unexplained.
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:29 pmGoku becomes an adult because his child body probably couldn't contain all that power, it was already failing when using SS3, and was strong enough to overrode the wish. Vegeta's body was already capable of withstanding SS4's power.
I always though Goku became an adult just was a showcase to proof that SSJ4 exceeds the power of the Black Star Dragon Balls.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:10 pm

There was some Dragonball Guidebook that stated that SS4 forced one into an adult body, of course we could just say they are basing that on Goku but you have to think the form is a transformation from GGA so the body size changing shape and size makes sense. I think if Goten in DB got SS4 he would have looked just like SS4 Goku.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Civic » Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:23 am

I don't want to start a big argument about this, but I've never seen this question answered conclusively:

Was Super Perfect Cell stronger than SSJ2 Gohan during their Kamehameha battle? Was Vegeta's attack enough of a diversion to let Cell drop his guard, which Gohan capitalised on and overwhelmed him? Or was Gohan too defeatist and lacking belief in his own power, and that was why Cell stood a chance at all?

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Desassina » Thu Apr 27, 2023 6:11 am

You're going to get a lot of answers in the realm of "Gohan was at 50% power when he beat Cell therefore he's twice as strong at full power".

In my opinion, "Super" Perfect Cell powered up to be his equal in the sense that, if they had to duke it out by fighting melee, then Gohan's arm condition and low confidence would hinder him, otherwise their Kamehameha pushing strength was the same (hence why it clashed at the middle), despite the fact that they were charged at different levels - Cell poured all of his Ki into it to destroy the solar system, while Gohan's half could only damage the Earth at best.

In other words, they had the same SS2-like strength, but used a different amount of Ki in their attacks. Off course, Toriyama would not have drawn Vegeta launching an attack in case Gohan only needed to snap and unleash it all, so his contribution counts to Cell's distraction even though it has nothing to do with power (and why would it? It's just narrative).

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:20 am

Going by the dialogue between Goku and Gohan, I think Gohan was still holding back out of concern of accidentally killing their friends in the blast, and he was also down on himself for not killing Cell sooner and losing his dad because of it. He still had a little hidden power left to give, and all he needed was a push. Vegeta's distraction definitely helped, but I think Gohan could have won without it. The distraction just kept Cell from reacting in time to either counter by increasing his own ki (slowing things down) or doing that BS single cell shield thing he did to survive his own self-destruction, and so he was completely decimated. Cell turning away might have also been what motivated Gohan to push further too, seeing a moment of vulnerability, like a predator seeing its prey turn away.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:54 am

Civic wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:23 am I don't want to start a big argument about this, but I've never seen this question answered conclusively:

Was Super Perfect Cell stronger than SSJ2 Gohan during their Kamehameha battle? Was Vegeta's attack enough of a diversion to let Cell drop his guard, which Gohan capitalised on and overwhelmed him? Or was Gohan too defeatist and lacking belief in his own power, and that was why Cell stood a chance at all?
Toriyama explained in an interview that one of the three components of ki is confidence. This can be seen in action in several fights throughout the show.
Gohan's confidence was all over the floor(being injured, failing the first time and Goku dying, failing this second time, Trunks dying and Vegeta KO, he threw the towel right from the start), thus his ki output during the beam clash was below its real level.
Once he regained it, Cell was no longer able to hold him back. Vegeta's blast probably helped things go faster, without it I think Gohan would've eventually won with his confidence back and FP, but not as clean. Cell probably would've resisted it for a bit.


Also, this question might get more replies on the Unofficial PL Thread.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:56 am

Civic wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:23 am I don't want to start a big argument about this, but I've never seen this question answered conclusively:

Was Super Perfect Cell stronger than SSJ2 Gohan during their Kamehameha battle? Was Vegeta's attack enough of a diversion to let Cell drop his guard, which Gohan capitalised on and overwhelmed him? Or was Gohan too defeatist and lacking belief in his own power, and that was why Cell stood a chance at all?
I think Gohan was still somewhat stronger but he had been worn down from their fight where Cell was refreshed.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:17 pm

The amount of different takes Marvel/DC do to their stories and the multiverse stuff becoming such a mainstream thing nowadays made me more open to DB retcons.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 02, 2023 11:50 am

Found myself rewatching the Super 17 arc, and by god is Goku as dumb as Michael G. Scott.

He notices Super 17 has destroyed everybody without a single scratch, so he turns SS and also gets demolished out of SS. Gets up and instead of going SS4, because has has already tested the waters and they are fucking deep, he goes SS, again (why isn't he SS-fouring up) and starts spamming ki blasts.*
So, that didn't work, let's try some more ki blasts. Oh, that didn't work either? Goku is already confused with how things are going. Super 17 tanks every ki attack, unscathered, and gets even faster and stronger afterwards? could he be... a mind reader? **
Let's turn SS4 and do what this form does best: spam ki blasts mindlessly from afar. Oh, wait, he has been eating the blasts all this time? ok, I have the answer: a bigger ki blast. Oops, failed. Let's try some melee combat now that I've powered him up beyond repair.

*This is particularly dumb and funny because only one arc prior, or should I say like 10 episodes ago, he was being all high and might to Baby about the proper usage of ki. And here we are, one fight later, with Goku having only one lazy answer to a mild problem.
** No joke, he says something along those lines instead of just connecting the fucking dots. DBZA couldn't have done it better.

I've never felt so trolled as a DB audience during this set of episodes. This is the lowest of GT, the equivalent of episode 5 of DBS, only in writing not art, this looks beautiful nonetheless... remove this arc and GT improves 3 points.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by QuakingStar » Sat May 06, 2023 11:04 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:50 am Found myself rewatching the Super 17 arc, and by god is Goku as dumb as Michael G. Scott.

He notices Super 17 has destroyed everybody without a single scratch, so he turns SS and also gets demolished out of SS. Gets up and instead of going SS4, because has has already tested the waters and they are fucking deep, he goes SS, again (why isn't he SS-fouring up) and starts spamming ki blasts.*
So, that didn't work, let's try some more ki blasts. Oh, that didn't work either? Goku is already confused with how things are going. Super 17 tanks every ki attack, unscathered, and gets even faster and stronger afterwards? could he be... a mind reader? **
Let's turn SS4 and do what this form does best: spam ki blasts mindlessly from afar. Oh, wait, he has been eating the blasts all this time? ok, I have the answer: a bigger ki blast. Oops, failed. Let's try some melee combat now that I've powered him up beyond repair.

*This is particularly dumb and funny because only one arc prior, or should I say like 10 episodes ago, he was being all high and might to Baby about the proper usage of ki. And here we are, one fight later, with Goku having only one lazy answer to a mild problem.
** No joke, he says something along those lines instead of just connecting the fucking dots. DBZA couldn't have done it better.

I've never felt so trolled as a DB audience during this set of episodes. This is the lowest of GT, the equivalent of episode 5 of DBS, only in writing not art, this looks beautiful nonetheless... remove this arc and GT improves 3 points.
Yeah the only good thing about that Arc was Super 17 and honestly they could have gone without him and just skipped to the Shadow Dragon Arc.

I think if they ever redid and re-worked GT, they could change some things and add stuff. They could make Goku stay an adult, Have him mastered UI so that he doesn't need the UI transformations anymore and then they can add Super Saiyan 4 as his new Ultimate form. They could easily work the new stuff from Super into it and have Beerus on another 30+ year hibernation so that Beerus and Whis are not involved at all. Baby should obviously still be a thing, with Baby Vegeta having access to a Tuffleized Ultra Ego and then combining that with Great Ape before being defeated, and having Goku combining his UI mastery with Super Saiyan 4, for the Dragon Ball Hunt they are searching for the Super Dragon Balls instead because they were warned that they need to find them as something is wrong? idk. and have Goten join Trunks, Pan, and Goku for the search. Have the Shadow Dragons come from the Super Dragon Balls instead, have Bulla be more involved and not basically useless. There's SO MUCH they could do with a re-done GT and it could easily be great.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sat May 06, 2023 12:18 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 11:04 am
Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:50 am Found myself rewatching the Super 17 arc, and by god is Goku as dumb as Michael G. Scott.

He notices Super 17 has destroyed everybody without a single scratch, so he turns SS and also gets demolished out of SS. Gets up and instead of going SS4, because has has already tested the waters and they are fucking deep, he goes SS, again (why isn't he SS-fouring up) and starts spamming ki blasts.*
So, that didn't work, let's try some more ki blasts. Oh, that didn't work either? Goku is already confused with how things are going. Super 17 tanks every ki attack, unscathered, and gets even faster and stronger afterwards? could he be... a mind reader? **
Let's turn SS4 and do what this form does best: spam ki blasts mindlessly from afar. Oh, wait, he has been eating the blasts all this time? ok, I have the answer: a bigger ki blast. Oops, failed. Let's try some melee combat now that I've powered him up beyond repair.

*This is particularly dumb and funny because only one arc prior, or should I say like 10 episodes ago, he was being all high and might to Baby about the proper usage of ki. And here we are, one fight later, with Goku having only one lazy answer to a mild problem.
** No joke, he says something along those lines instead of just connecting the fucking dots. DBZA couldn't have done it better.

I've never felt so trolled as a DB audience during this set of episodes. This is the lowest of GT, the equivalent of episode 5 of DBS, only in writing not art, this looks beautiful nonetheless... remove this arc and GT improves 3 points.
Yeah the only good thing about that Arc was Super 17 and honestly they could have gone without him and just skipped to the Shadow Dragon Arc.

I think if they ever redid and re-worked GT, they could change some things and add stuff. They could make Goku stay an adult, Have him mastered UI so that he doesn't need the UI transformations anymore and then they can add Super Saiyan 4 as his new Ultimate form. They could easily work the new stuff from Super into it and have Beerus on another 30+ year hibernation so that Beerus and Whis are not involved at all. Baby should obviously still be a thing, with Baby Vegeta having access to a Tuffleized Ultra Ego and then combining that with Great Ape before being defeated, and having Goku combining his UI mastery with Super Saiyan 4, for the Dragon Ball Hunt they are searching for the Super Dragon Balls instead because they were warned that they need to find them as something is wrong? idk. and have Goten join Trunks, Pan, and Goku for the search. Have the Shadow Dragons come from the Super Dragon Balls instead, have Bulla be more involved and not basically useless. There's SO MUCH they could do with a re-done GT and it could easily be great.
I generally like these ideas, except I think the Shadow Dragons are meant to be the consequence of the heroes overrelying on the Dragon Balls to solve their problems, as well as how they were used for vain purposes, like wishing for panties or to make oneself slightly younger. So yeah. In a rebooted GT that follows Super, the Shadow Dragons would be Bulma's fault. It'll never happen, but it's a fun thought experiment.

At the start of the anime, a younger Pilaf gang could sneak in to find the Dragon Balls, and they accidentally waste all three wishes.

Shu: "So what'll you wish for this time, sire?"

Pilaf: "Isn't it obvious? I want to become king of the world. That has always been my goal."

Mai: "Yeah, but you wished us to be younger last time instead, and we spent years stuck as little kids."

Pilaf: "Yeah. That was a waste. I wish I never made such a dumb wish."

Dragon: "Your wish has been granted."

Shu: "We're withering away!"

Mai: "Agh! You idiot! What did you do to us!? We're old as dust now!"

Pilaf: "I take it back! Make us young again!"

Mai: "But not too young! Make us young adults!"

Dragon: "Your wish has been granted. What is your final wish?"

Goku: "Hey! What are you three doing here? Didn't Bulma tell you not to touch the Dragon Balls?"

Pilaf: "Goku... You've always been a thorn in my side, and now that you're a god, you're a holy pain in my--"

Dragon: "Final wish, going once..."

Shu: "Yeah. Goku's strength is unnatural. I wish Goku was a normal mortal like us. Then he'd have never gotten in our way."

Dragon: "Your wish has been granted."

Goku: "What? ...Hey! I can't go god anymore! That wasn't nice!"

Pilaf: "No no no! You stupid dragon! That's not what I wanted!"

Dragon: "You know what? Screw you guys. I used to be able to sleep for hundreds of years at a time. Now I'm awoken every year to clean your messes and give you cosmetic surgery. You've pushed me too far, and this will be your curse. One year from now, the Earth will be destroyed, unless you can find all my Dragon Balls. But I'm scattering them across the whole universe this time, so good luck with that. Bye."

Shu: "...I think you made him angry."

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