As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:41 pm

Scsigs wrote:[spoiler]
TheGreatness25 wrote:I'm just saying how it is for me. It's like if tomorrow TFS declared that they were doing their own full re-dub of Z to be as accurate as possible -- it might be nice, but it wouldn't replace their original work for me because I knew what I signed up for and appreciated their take on it. It's really the same with Funimation -- if I want accuracy, I'll watch the original; if I'm watching Funimation, I want that version. I can admire and appreciate their dub of Kai, but ultimately, it is lost in the shuffle right in between the Japanese version and their Z dub for me. If you can't do something better than the original, make something different, and the Z dub certainly is different.
[/spoiler]
Implying that they Kai dub isn't nearly as good as the sub, or even Super. :yawn:
I can certainly disagree if that's what you actually meant. There are certainly dubs that are just as good, if not better, than the Japanese version. The "better" pile's much lower than the "just as good" one, especially since they're both based on personal preference. I personally encourage dubs to be as accurate as possible in translation, while also not being a more "accuracy" snob to not allow for dubbing teams to have a bit of leeway to accommodate the new language they're dubbing the thing into. Because, if you're not gonna dub something mean to be seen in another language, you should both tell the story, have character personalities intact, & have the dialogue be consistent in its translation & scripting, otherwise you either get dubs that aren't even half accurate like Yugioh, or you get dubs that are MORE than half accurate, but throw in stupid one-liner throwaway jokes &/or lines that make no sense, like Digimon. That era of anime dubbing is dead & gone & we should embrace this current era.
Despite what I might think, I never said the word "better" in my post. "Better" is subjective and to me, the best source is always the original. No dialog will ever be more accurate than the original. But that's not the point, I don't care how good the new Funimation dub is and I don't care how others see it, for me, if I want the to see the story the way it was meant to be seen, I'll go to the source. Even if Funimation was 100% faithful, there's still zero reason for me to care about their redub when I'm already invested in the original and go to the Z dub for nostalgia and entertainment. There's no way in the world that Funimation can create a "way it was meant to be seen" vibe more than the Japanese version unless the series was written for the English dub with the Japanese version as an afterthought.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by Scsigs » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:34 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:Despite what I might think, I never said the word "better" in my post.
Uhmmmm...
TheGreatness25 wrote:If you can't do something better than the original, make something different, and the Z dub certainly is different.
And THAT was the part I quoted too. Your argument that you didn't say that word, much less what you mean by that sentence & the rest of the response, was deflated before you even responded to me. Nice hiding your quote in my response with a "spoiler" tag too by the way. You may have meant something else, but don't say you never said something in the original post that you DID.
TheGreatness25 wrote:"Better" is subjective and to me, the best source is always the original. No dialog will ever be more accurate than the original. But that's not the point, I don't care how good the new Funimation dub is and I don't care how others see it, for me, if I want the to see the story the way it was meant to be seen, I'll go to the source. Even if Funimation was 100% faithful, there's still zero reason for me to care about their redub when I'm already invested in the original and go to the Z dub for nostalgia and entertainment. There's no way in the world that Funimation can create a "way it was meant to be seen" vibe more than the Japanese version unless the series was written for the English dub with the Japanese version as an afterthought.
Technically, the best way to watch/read/hear/experience something is in its original language & you need to be fluent in said language. It's true that if you want a more authentic experience, you should give the original language of something a try. However, that can lead to problems of cultural translations &/or dissonance of some kind. The point of a dub is to translate something into another language & have actors that speak that language for another audience who don't wanna be distracted reading subtitles. Hell, that's why Miyazaki implores the dubs of his films, since he's more of a visual guy & he understands that people would wanna see the films & not have to bother reading subtitles. He's also a proponent of dubbing his films uncut, since he hated earlier attempts to dub his films that cut out stuff. Thus when Disney dubbed the Ghibli films, they stuck as close to the original scripts as they could at the request of the higher-ups over there.
But then there's also the flipside when a studio doesn't care how their show gets dubbed, as long as it's seen by another audience, and I'm not talking DBZ, I'm talking One Piece when they for some reason licensed it to 4Kids &, as you'd expect from them, they practically destroyed any & all potential the show had overseas thanks to the major story & animation revisions they did, causing plot holes had they continue, thanks to Oda's continual love of continuity (though they even had plot holes in what they DID dub because they skipped over important episodes, but acknowledged their plots in later ones), had acting & translations that were laughable at best, & destroyed the company's already shaky reputation amongst the anime community to the point where after they dropped Pokemon, they still had Yugioh for several years...until a lawsuit by the Japanese company that they licensed the shows from sued them for alleged unpaid royalties, thus blowing out their money & eventually causing them to go into bankruptcy & selling off almost everything they still had to help pay their debts.
Yes, bad anime dubbing can KILL a company. Why do you think FUNimation has improved as a company overall since Z? Even the dubs of DB, GT, & part of the Z movies got better dubs than Z in terms of their translations. But then we have their first really great dub in Fullmetal Alchemist, which was really accurate from what I can tell (I watched it when it was on Netflix & I don't think they had subs for the Japanese dub on there at the time I did). In fact, back when Z was airing, the dub was derided at the time in some ways from what I've read.
So, I say again, anime dubs NEED to be accurate, whether they can exactly match the Japanese in quality. Adapt the dialogue for the new language & have good voice acting, but keep it accurate. The Z dub CAN be entertaining, yeah, but there's a reason I don't fork over the cash for the sets so easily. One is that the set I COULD get are terrible, but the other one is that the dub's not that good. And here's the thing, I CAN watch some dubs that are what I consider bad, but that doesn't mean they aren't bad. There's So Bad, It's Good & then there's just being so bad, it's bad & that's what I consider the Z dub for the most part. I like a majority of the cast, but man are some of the performances painful & the translations can be just bad. No thanks. I'll take Kai any day.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.

The epic tale of how Sean Schemmel blocked me on Twitter:
I tagged him in a thread explaining how his performance wasn't rerecorded when FUNi were redoing parts of the early Z dub for the Orange Bricks.
He thought I was misrepresenting his work by saying he wasn't in something he was in.
I explained how that wasn't the situation & did a bit of a sarcastic kinda thing involving the rerecordings FUNi did for the Z dub to show how stupid that was.
He said they didn't record him & not use his recordings.
Blocked & he deleted his response tweets to me.
???
Profit...?

Um...Listen to Waterparks.
That is all.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:49 pm

Scsigs wrote:[spoiler]
TheGreatness25 wrote:Despite what I might think, I never said the word "better" in my post.
Uhmmmm...
TheGreatness25 wrote:If you can't do something better than the original, make something different, and the Z dub certainly is different.
And THAT was the part I quoted too. Your argument that you didn't say that word, much less what you mean by that sentence & the rest of the response, was deflated before you even responded to me. Nice hiding your quote in my response with a "spoiler" tag too by the way. You may have meant something else, but don't say you never said something in the original post that you DID.
TheGreatness25 wrote:"Better" is subjective and to me, the best source is always the original. No dialog will ever be more accurate than the original. But that's not the point, I don't care how good the new Funimation dub is and I don't care how others see it, for me, if I want the to see the story the way it was meant to be seen, I'll go to the source. Even if Funimation was 100% faithful, there's still zero reason for me to care about their redub when I'm already invested in the original and go to the Z dub for nostalgia and entertainment. There's no way in the world that Funimation can create a "way it was meant to be seen" vibe more than the Japanese version unless the series was written for the English dub with the Japanese version as an afterthought.
Technically, the best way to watch/read/hear/experience something is in its original language & you need to be fluent in said language. It's true that if you want a more authentic experience, you should give the original language of something a try. However, that can lead to problems of cultural translations &/or dissonance of some kind. The point of a dub is to translate something into another language & have actors that speak that language for another audience who don't wanna be distracted reading subtitles. Hell, that's why Miyazaki implores the dubs of his films, since he's more of a visual guy & he understands that people would wanna see the films & not have to bother reading subtitles. He's also a proponent of dubbing his films uncut, since he hated earlier attempts to dub his films that cut out stuff. Thus when Disney dubbed the Ghibli films, they stuck as close to the original scripts as they could at the request of the higher-ups over there.
But then there's also the flipside when a studio doesn't care how their show gets dubbed, as long as it's seen by another audience, and I'm not talking DBZ, I'm talking One Piece when they for some reason licensed it to 4Kids &, as you'd expect from them, they practically destroyed any & all potential the show had overseas thanks to the major story & animation revisions they did, causing plot holes had they continue, thanks to Oda's continual love of continuity (though they even had plot holes in what they DID dub because they skipped over important episodes, but acknowledged their plots in later ones), had acting & translations that were laughable at best, & destroyed the company's already shaky reputation amongst the anime community to the point where after they dropped Pokemon, they still had Yugioh for several years...until a lawsuit by the Japanese company that they licensed the shows from sued them for alleged unpaid royalties, thus blowing out their money & eventually causing them to go into bankruptcy & selling off almost everything they still had to help pay their debts.
Yes, bad anime dubbing can KILL a company. Why do you think FUNimation has improved as a company overall since Z? Even the dubs of DB, GT, & part of the Z movies got better dubs than Z in terms of their translations. But then we have their first really great dub in Fullmetal Alchemist, which was really accurate from what I can tell (I watched it when it was on Netflix & I don't think they had subs for the Japanese dub on there at the time I did). In fact, back when Z was airing, the dub was derided at the time in some ways from what I've read.
So, I say again, anime dubs NEED to be accurate, whether they can exactly match the Japanese in quality. Adapt the dialogue for the new language & have good voice acting, but keep it accurate. The Z dub CAN be entertaining, yeah, but there's a reason I don't fork over the cash for the sets so easily. One is that the set I COULD get are terrible, but the other one is that the dub's not that good. And here's the thing, I CAN watch some dubs that are what I consider bad, but that doesn't mean they aren't bad. There's So Bad, It's Good & then there's just being so bad, it's bad & that's what I consider the Z dub for the most part. I like a majority of the cast, but man are some of the performances painful & the translations can be just bad. No thanks. I'll take Kai any day.[/spoiler]
No, I put it in a spoiler because I don't like it when there are just never-ending responses. I usually put my own stuff in a spoiler when quoting people who quoted me. I mainly use that as a space saver.

The phrase that I used -- "if you can't do something better" was a general thing, not particularly referencing Funimation's dub. I say the same exact thing whenever there's a reboot. When I typed it, I wasn't commenting the Kai dub or anything, I was just making a blanket statement.

And honestly, I gave my outlook on it. In my original post, I even broke down when the new Kai dub would be someone's definitive version. I'm not taking anything away from them, I just don't care for the new dub. This is a subjective thread, right? So I don't know why you're trying to argue about my personal perspective, especially when I wasn't attacking the Kai dub.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:21 am

I do relate to what TheGreatness25 is saying though, because I have the opposite. For me Kai is the only way to watch Z not just because it ticks all the boxes, but because that's what I've emotionally invested myself in and have fallen in love with. On the flipside, TheGreatness25 is attached to the Japanese Z, and any other interpretation of the story just won't do and would be weird.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by Scsigs » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:31 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:No, I put it in a spoiler because I don't like it when there are just never-ending responses. I usually put my own stuff in a spoiler when quoting people who quoted me. I mainly use that as a space saver.

The phrase that I used -- "if you can't do something better" was a general thing, not particularly referencing Funimation's dub. I say the same exact thing whenever there's a reboot. When I typed it, I wasn't commenting the Kai dub or anything, I was just making a blanket statement.

And honestly, I gave my outlook on it. In my original post, I even broke down when the new Kai dub would be someone's definitive version. I'm not taking anything away from them, I just don't care for the new dub. This is a subjective thread, right? So I don't know why you're trying to argue about my personal perspective, especially when I wasn't attacking the Kai dub.
My perspective on it is how I said it. Dubs are supposed to be a translation of what's in the Japanese scripts. I was disagreeing with what you said because I don't think the Z dub holds up almost 20 years later, especially when they people behind the dubs of the material have said so themselves. The Z dub could've had more accurate scripts, but the people behind the dubbing at the time thought differently. There are people that argue that Kai's dub dishonors the Z dub, which I think Z's dub already dishonored the material in the first place, so that's a plus in my book. My outlook is the complete opposite of yours & it makes more sense than what you suggest.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.

The epic tale of how Sean Schemmel blocked me on Twitter:
I tagged him in a thread explaining how his performance wasn't rerecorded when FUNi were redoing parts of the early Z dub for the Orange Bricks.
He thought I was misrepresenting his work by saying he wasn't in something he was in.
I explained how that wasn't the situation & did a bit of a sarcastic kinda thing involving the rerecordings FUNi did for the Z dub to show how stupid that was.
He said they didn't record him & not use his recordings.
Blocked & he deleted his response tweets to me.
???
Profit...?

Um...Listen to Waterparks.
That is all.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:54 pm

Scsigs wrote:[spoiler]
TheGreatness25 wrote:No, I put it in a spoiler because I don't like it when there are just never-ending responses. I usually put my own stuff in a spoiler when quoting people who quoted me. I mainly use that as a space saver.

The phrase that I used -- "if you can't do something better" was a general thing, not particularly referencing Funimation's dub. I say the same exact thing whenever there's a reboot. When I typed it, I wasn't commenting the Kai dub or anything, I was just making a blanket statement.

And honestly, I gave my outlook on it. In my original post, I even broke down when the new Kai dub would be someone's definitive version. I'm not taking anything away from them, I just don't care for the new dub. This is a subjective thread, right? So I don't know why you're trying to argue about my personal perspective, especially when I wasn't attacking the Kai dub.
[/spoiler]
My perspective on it is how I said it. Dubs are supposed to be a translation of what's in the Japanese scripts.
Well this is a subjective topic. It is asking about how we feel. I didn't say that the Z dub did its job or how it was accurate. In fact, I said the opposite. Regardless of what the dubs are "supposed to do," that's not what Z did. And thus, I have explained that for the span of roughly a decade, I have gone to the Japanese subtitles to experience the series the way it was meant to be seen. The dub existed -- whether right or wrong, it still existed. I merely said that I have a nostalgia for the dub and that's what drives me to watch it and enjoy it. I have no pull toward the Kai dub. I have nothing that makes me want to watch it. I don't care how accurate it is, because I already have the accurate version when watching the subbed Japanese version with -- what have been proven to be -- very good translations by Steve Simmons.

I was disagreeing with what you said because I don't think the Z dub holds up almost 20 years later, especially when they people behind the dubs of the material have said so themselves.
Again, this is a subjective topic. Your disagreeing with me means that you disagree with my opinion. How can you disagree with my opinion?

The Z dub could've had more accurate scripts, but the people behind the dubbing at the time thought differently. There are people that argue that Kai's dub dishonors the Z dub, which I think Z's dub already dishonored the material in the first place, so that's a plus in my book. My outlook is the complete opposite of yours & it makes more sense than what you suggest.
Actually, you and I agree -- I've admitted that the Z dub was not accurate. I compared it to TFS's "parody" of the series. Surely you must know that you and I agree. I was giving my opinion that I don't care for the Kai dub. Regardless of what anyone says, I'm not going to care for the Kai dub. It's not like you're going to tell me, "Well the Kai dub was way more accurate!" and suddenly a light will fall over me and I'll want to go watch it. No. I've admitted as much that the Z dub was absolutely ridiculous -- but that's why I like it. I grew up with it. I like the cheesy nature of it. I like that it's different. I brought up the example of TFS and how I enjoy it knowing that it's isn't a straight translation of the series. I also said that if TFS decided to do a straight translation, that I wouldn't have any interest because I actually like that they created something unique out of the series. It's the same thing with Funimation for better or worse.

To your closer, what you said does make more sense... if we were arguing about whether or not the Kai dub is more faithful. But in this context, when we're discussing my personal preference, there's absolutely zero chance of you saying something that "makes more sense" because it's preference.

I said that my ultimate go-to is the Japnaeese version. Why would I need an accurate dub that merely reflects the version that I already watch as my go-to version? I enjoy "going back in time" and watching the hilariocity that is the Z dub.

Basically the argument is: "I like apples and a Snickers because when I want to be healthy, I eat the apple, but sometimes I just enjoy a good ol' Snickers" "That doesn't make sense! An orange is way healthier than a Snickers!" "Yeah, I know that... but I like Snickers." "Well an orange is way better than a Snickers, so you're not making any sense."

Like seriously, this is subjective. If you want to discuss the Kai dub's faithfulness and accuracy, then yeah, you're right. But you're telling me that my preference doesn't make sense, and that's just strange.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:08 pm

I can't stand english dub for Kai. It's just feel so much worse than original Z dub. Also, i can't stand what they did to Gohan and Android 18. Since Stephanie Nadolny has been replaced, Kid Goku in DB/GT Kai would most likely have the same awful voice.

The only good side of this dub is that it's more faithful to original and that could actually work well with hypothetical GT Kai, because FUNimation did terrible job there ruining entire series. But DBZ dub was great. DB Kai doesn't give me any emotions. It's like all those VA's were getting worse and worse. Goku and Vegeta do not sound as good as they did years ago.
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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by Scsigs » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:01 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:I can't stand english dub for Kai. It's just feel so much worse than original Z dub. Also, i can't stand what they did to Gohan and Android 18. Since Stephanie Nadolny has been replaced, Kid Goku in DB/GT Kai would most likely have the same awful voice.

The only good side of this dub is that it's more faithful to original and that could actually work well with hypothetical GT Kai, because FUNimation did terrible job there ruining entire series. But DBZ dub was great. DB Kai doesn't give me any emotions. It's like all those VA's were getting worse and worse. Goku and Vegeta do not sound as good as they did years ago.
Ok, you must be either trolling.
1. Replacing Gohan & 18 were sad to have happened, but unavoidable, since apparently Sabat & Nadolny had disagreements over how to play him (that's just what I heard though). With 18, apparently McCoy wasn't available to play her. I can accept Clinkenbeard as her, since it's not a bad performance, it's just that McCoy does a better job. Her as Gohan was just ear-grating though.
2. A "GT Kai"? You DO realize why Z Kai happened, right? Z was bloated with a TON of filler & Toei wanted to have a shorter recut for its 20th anniversary. GT isn't remembered as fondly as Z is, on top of never having any filler. What you meant to say there is a redub, since GT as a whole isn't like Z was in terms of pacing & filler. And yeah, it'd be hard to hear Clinkenbeard as Goku, but maybe they could just recycle the DB dub's dialogue audio for it, since that dub was still decent, but then again, they'd probably wanna maintain consistency with Z Kai, so yeah. But then again, DB's filler isn't as bad as Z's could get, so they probably don't see the point.
3. Z's dub was TERRIBLE, are you kidding? The performances were spotty, there's WAY TOO MUCH extra & pointless dialogue, & the translations were just bad half the time at least.
4. Kai's dub had no emotion? What? Kai's dub was GREAT in the emotional department. Everyone was on-point, even Clinkenbeard. Chris Ayres is menacing as Frieza, even though it took him a bit to really step into the role, Sean Schemmel doesn't have terrible line reads anymore (which, yeah he does sound like he did years ago, he just can actually speak as Goku & properly act this time, plus he fluctuates his voice depending on the scene, Goku's mood, & Goku's forms, similar to Nozawa as far as I can tell), & Vegeta's less gravely & now sounds a bit posh. Sabat does a great job with him now. I have NO idea how you can listen to Kai's dub & not hear the better performances.
Last edited by Scsigs on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.

The epic tale of how Sean Schemmel blocked me on Twitter:
I tagged him in a thread explaining how his performance wasn't rerecorded when FUNi were redoing parts of the early Z dub for the Orange Bricks.
He thought I was misrepresenting his work by saying he wasn't in something he was in.
I explained how that wasn't the situation & did a bit of a sarcastic kinda thing involving the rerecordings FUNi did for the Z dub to show how stupid that was.
He said they didn't record him & not use his recordings.
Blocked & he deleted his response tweets to me.
???
Profit...?

Um...Listen to Waterparks.
That is all.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 pm

I'm not sad that Nadolny got recast. Her raspy voice doesn't suit Gohan's personality at all.
"It was deemed to be too awesome." - Scott McNeil on Dragon Ball Kai not being aired yet in Canada.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 pm

Scsigs wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:[spoiler]I can't stand english dub for Kai. It's just feel so much worse than original Z dub. Also, i can't stand what they did to Gohan and Android 18. Since Stephanie Nadolny has been replaced, Kid Goku in DB/GT Kai would most likely have the same awful voice.

The only good side of this dub is that it's more faithful to original and that could actually work well with hypothetical GT Kai, because FUNimation did terrible job there ruining entire series. But DBZ dub was great. DB Kai doesn't give me any emotions. It's like all those VA's were getting worse and worse. Goku and Vegeta do not sound as good as they did years ago.[/spoiler]
Ok, you are either trolling, mentally handicapped, or just dumb.
Alright, I was caught off-guard when you started telling me that my preference didn't make sense, but now this is crossing the line. This isn't how this forum works. Take that nonsense to YouTube.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by Asura » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:11 pm

Hostility aside, I also don't understand the complaint (which I've heard numerous times now) that the VA's aren't putting as much emotion/effort into the Kai dub as they did with Z, which seems so ridiculous to me given they literally had no idea what they were doing when they were dubbing Z back in the early days, and voice actors like Schemmel were literally picked off the streets without any real experience under their belt and it definitely showed in how stilted and awkward most of the deliveries were.

The performance of the VAs in Kai is objectively better 90% of the time. You can prefer the old Funi Z dub if you want, but the VAs are factually worse, they even admit so themselves.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by Scsigs » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:04 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Scsigs wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:[spoiler]I can't stand english dub for Kai. It's just feel so much worse than original Z dub. Also, i can't stand what they did to Gohan and Android 18. Since Stephanie Nadolny has been replaced, Kid Goku in DB/GT Kai would most likely have the same awful voice.

The only good side of this dub is that it's more faithful to original and that could actually work well with hypothetical GT Kai, because FUNimation did terrible job there ruining entire series. But DBZ dub was great. DB Kai doesn't give me any emotions. It's like all those VA's were getting worse and worse. Goku and Vegeta do not sound as good as they did years ago.[/spoiler]
Ok, you are either trolling, mentally handicapped, or just dumb.
Alright, I was caught off-guard when you started telling me that my preference didn't make sense, but now this is crossing the line. This isn't how this forum works. Take that nonsense to YouTube.
Yeah, I got a bit carried away with that part, though I accidentally left in the "either." Just updated it to be less terrible. To the mods, sorry, guys. Believe it or not, it was a bit worse before I edited it to tone it down already.
As for my response to YOUR perspective, though, it doesn't make sense from MY perspective, if that helps at all.
Like, it's just like my past interactions with TheSSUltimateGoku when he commented on a video of mine on YouTube where I praised the Kai dub. He brought up all these nonsensical arguments about the music (Falconer) being better in Z, Linda Young being superior to Chris Ayres as Frieza, & I think some other things I can't remember, but the crux of his side of the feud was that the Z dub was overall better. Now, music taste is subjective, actor preferences are subjective, but you can't argue the quality of Kai's dub over Z for which dub was the superior product in terms of acting, translation, direction, & some other things. Kai wins hands down. Now, you can love Z's dub & all its playfully stupid/directionless wackiness & redone scripts (which I know you do), but to deny the quality of Kai for all it accomplished, I think, does it & everyone involved a big disservice. And not to shove disservice in the Z dub's face, since it was fine for the time, but I think Kai's what everyone's gonna remember in the English side of it for the foreseeable future in most areas. Argue if you want, other people, but I think that's what('s) to/can be expected.
Asura wrote:Hostility aside, I also don't understand the complaint (which I've heard numerous times now) that the VA's aren't putting as much emotion/effort into the Kai dub as they did with Z, which seems so ridiculous to me given they literally had no idea what they were doing when they were dubbing Z back in the early days, and voice actors like Schemmel were literally picked off the streets without any real experience under their belt and it definitely showed in how stilted and awkward most of the deliveries were.

The performance of the VAs in Kai is objectively better 90% of the time. You can prefer the old Funi Z dub if you want, but the VAs are factually worse, they even admit so themselves.
Exactly! That's why I reacted so hastily there. The complaint makes so little sense that it seemed like that person is intentionally saying those things either just to get a rise out of people (example; me), is just finding something to be mad at, can't judge good acting properly, or is just so blinded by fanboy/girl-isms that she (I'm assuming based on the profile picture), literally, just came here to complain with arguments that don't make any sense just because she doesn't like Kai. Her location says "Poland," so it may be a language barrier thing, maybe not, but the arguments are still unbelievable in how much they don't make sense.

Edit: Just thought of this. Maybe she's talking the Polish dubs if there are any? But the question would then be why would she come here to an English dub thread & complain about the Polish dub?
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.

The epic tale of how Sean Schemmel blocked me on Twitter:
I tagged him in a thread explaining how his performance wasn't rerecorded when FUNi were redoing parts of the early Z dub for the Orange Bricks.
He thought I was misrepresenting his work by saying he wasn't in something he was in.
I explained how that wasn't the situation & did a bit of a sarcastic kinda thing involving the rerecordings FUNi did for the Z dub to show how stupid that was.
He said they didn't record him & not use his recordings.
Blocked & he deleted his response tweets to me.
???
Profit...?

Um...Listen to Waterparks.
That is all.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:45 pm

Although it is true, I feel that even going back to the Ultimate Uncut release, the actors seem to ramble through their lines. I guess it doesn't come off as emotional because they never pause or let the lines breathe. They just keep going one into another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy-2UQrR3xU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI6A9CL9HLw

I don't know what it is, but it just sounds too rambled. It almost sounds like they didn't have periods, commas, question marks, or exclamation points in the script.

Again, Scsigs, it doesn't matter whether you understand my perspective or not, it's still my perspective. My perspective isn't right or wrong. I never said that the Z dub was better. I gave my explanation for why I like the Z dub and have no interest in the Kai dub. That's really all there is to it.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:47 pm

Scsigs wrote: Edit: Just thought of this. Maybe she's talking the Polish dubs if there are any? But the question would then be why would she come here to an English dub thread & complain about the Polish dub?
First of all, i am male.
I wasn't talking about Polish dub. There isn't even such thing beside movies 12&13. For series, we got the French dub (japanese for the second half of GT for some reason) with Polish voiceover and both french dub and polish translation were really bad, although as a kid i obviously enjoyed it.

I was talking about english dub made by FUNimation. And having different opinion doesn't give you any right to call me "dumb".
I am very aware that for DBZ they changed many dialogues, but they did that on purpose and those dialogues were just great to me, although obviously they do not count at all. I am myself tired of people actually taking FUNimation dialogues in account.
Kai dub doesn't have as much emotion as DBZ dub to me. To me. Not to you. Simple.
I just prefered the way Goku and Vegeta were speaking in DBZ/GT than they are in Kai/DBS. I liked their tone better. But music itself is important here. Faulconer music was just working very well with their voices.

And yes, by "GT Kai" i mostly meant redub. But "Z" Kai (i hate this english name) wasn't only about dub and getting rid of many fillers, but also enchancing visual style and making it widescreen. Although something like that will mostly never happen for other series.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by Scsigs » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:53 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:Although it is true, I feel that even going back to the Ultimate Uncut release, the actors seem to ramble through their lines. I guess it doesn't come off as emotional because they never pause or let the lines breathe. They just keep going one into another.
I don't know what it is, but it just sounds too rambled. It almost sounds like they didn't have periods, commas, question marks, or exclamation points in the script.

Again, Scsigs, it doesn't matter whether you understand my perspective or not, it's still my perspective. My perspective isn't right or wrong. I never said that the Z dub was better. I gave my explanation for why I like the Z dub and have no interest in the Kai dub. That's really all there is to it.
I kind of see what you mean, but I think it has to do with the new pacing of the scenes. I don't think "rambled" is exactly the right word. The dialogue moves quickly & in some sentences, the words CAN run into one another between who's talking, but that can hardly be blamed on the script, as much as it can be blamed on the faster pacing of Kai. I wouldn't say it's awful though. To me, it sounds just fine. Compared to the glacial pacing of Z, I'll take it.

And I don't agree with your perspective. That's all there is to that. Simple.
sunsetshimmer wrote:First of all, i am male.
I wasn't talking about Polish dub. There isn't even such thing beside movies 12&13. For series, we got the French dub (japanese for the second half of GT for some reason) with Polish voiceover and both french dub and polish translation were really bad, although as a kid i obviously enjoyed it.
All right. I was just guessing. Sorry to assume.
sunsetshimmer wrote:I was talking about english dub made by FUNimation. And having different opinion doesn't give you any right to call me "dumb".
I am very aware that for DBZ they changed many dialogues, but they did that on purpose and those dialogues were just great to me, although obviously they do not count at all. I am myself tired of people actually taking FUNimation dialogues in account.
Kai dub doesn't have as much emotion as DBZ dub to me. To me. Not to you. Simple.
I just prefered the way Goku and Vegeta were speaking in DBZ/GT than they are in Kai/DBS. I liked their tone better. But music itself is important here. Faulconer music was just working very well with their voices.
Eh, I wouldn't say that Kai lacks emotion either. Z had either flat or awkward performances in a lot of areas, particularly from Schemmel.

One of the best examples I can think of is where Goku convinces Vegeta to fuse in the Buu Saga.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4L-L8HoMvI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkRQLdz1U7w
Though I wouldn't say Z's dub was bad here, Goku sounds more like he's just talking in a frustrated tone than outright mad, and he just sounds like he's reading lines like its one of only a few takes they did. Plus, due to Z's pacing, it sounds like Sean had to slow down his natural talking to fit the animation. Sabat as Vegeta too. In Kai, the scene goes much faster & the acting is much improved, as well as the script. I believe Goku in Kai, but he's only serviceable in Z.
Hell, the Ocean dub did better in the acting department in my opinion. Kirby Morrow is a better actor than Sean was at the time. Drummond as well, compared to Sabat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5nMfhiCnKQ

An even better example is the scene where Goku goes Super Saiyan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmaaNoPlZ5A.
It's even better with his "I am" speech: https://youtu.be/zdr55ZJNq2k?t=1m27s.

And, while I can see Vegeta's tone being different, as well as a few other characters Sabat voices, Goku's isn't. Schemmel's just more confident in the role. Z's dub was amateurish on his part. In Kai & Super, he speaks with utter conviction because he's more comfortable in the role, as well as finally getting aspects of the character he didn't almost 20 years ago due to the scripts & direction. He's had nearly a decade to get the character down & he's got it. He knows when the character should be fun & goofy & when he should be serious. He shifts his tone, but it's not a dramatic shift & his tone is exactly the same as it was in the original dub, just acted better.

Hell, listen to Vegeta's speech to Goku as Majin Vegeta & you'll hear a difference in Sabat's acting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjmoSucnCq8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-0Vtr0uPic
The translation's not bad, but Sabat sounds like he's just trying to read the lines off the page in Z, but in Kai, he speaks with utter conviction & I believe him. I even like the voice tone a lot better.

But, then again, that's based off my own personal opinion, as well as what the actors themselves have said.
sunsetshimmer wrote:And yes, by "GT Kai" i mostly meant redub. But "Z" Kai (i hate this english name) wasn't only about dub and getting rid of many fillers, but also enchancing visual style and making it widescreen. Although something like that will mostly never happen for other series.
It was renamed "Z" Kai overseas as a means of marketing, as well as to make sure people knew what it was. Personally, while I see why it was just "Kai" in Japan, I prefer the name to have the "Z" in it. It just makes it sound better, but a lot of people prefer just "Kai."
And as for a "Kai" version of GT, that's a remaster & a crop job (Kai also had things taken out from the filler), which I wouldn't want in a million years. A remaster, sure, but no to ANY cropping of a 4:3 animated TV show to 16:9. I HATE that FUNi continues to do that to Z & disrespects it like they continue to do. The fact that they have Kai in 4:3 on the home releases (minus TFC, but that was a product that, for some stupid reason, Toei didn't make 4:3 masters for before cropping it) just shows that they'd rather have a shitty remaster for the show on home video than respect the original integrity of the thing. I'm betting if Toei remasters Z themselves, they'll rerelease those masters on Blu-Ray uncropped, which I just HATE. You should NEVER crop a 4:3 anything, even selectively, as well as give it a remaster that looks like awful watercolors. It just ruins the thing. The fact that they haven't put the Dragon Boxes back into circulation at least once since they were initially released over here just pisses me off.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.

The epic tale of how Sean Schemmel blocked me on Twitter:
I tagged him in a thread explaining how his performance wasn't rerecorded when FUNi were redoing parts of the early Z dub for the Orange Bricks.
He thought I was misrepresenting his work by saying he wasn't in something he was in.
I explained how that wasn't the situation & did a bit of a sarcastic kinda thing involving the rerecordings FUNi did for the Z dub to show how stupid that was.
He said they didn't record him & not use his recordings.
Blocked & he deleted his response tweets to me.
???
Profit...?

Um...Listen to Waterparks.
That is all.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by Asura » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:07 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:Although it is true, I feel that even going back to the Ultimate Uncut release, the actors seem to ramble through their lines. I guess it doesn't come off as emotional because they never pause or let the lines breathe. They just keep going one into another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy-2UQrR3xU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI6A9CL9HLw

I don't know what it is, but it just sounds too rambled. It almost sounds like they didn't have periods, commas, question marks, or exclamation points in the script.

Again, Scsigs, it doesn't matter whether you understand my perspective or not, it's still my perspective. My perspective isn't right or wrong. I never said that the Z dub was better. I gave my explanation for why I like the Z dub and have no interest in the Kai dub. That's really all there is to it.
I see nothing wrong with these clips. They talk as fast as actual people talk in real life.

I mean, just listen to Schemmel in this clip from Z. There's no emotion in his voice, it sounds like he's ready to fall asleep. Even Sabat's delivery sounds weird at times, along with the nonsensical and random groaning towards the end. I won't even touch on the script since that's not what we're talking about, but it's almost laughable how bad it is. "You were always there, laughing in my face... Why won't you leave me alone!?" Like, what? :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbhtTlJYy3U

The deliveries of some of these lines feel like there's too much pausing. It doesn't feel like how people would talk in real life. Like at 24 seconds where Vegeta says "Oh really Kakarrot?" There's a big delay between "Oh really" and "Kakarrot?". Kai's dialogue sounds much more natural and fluid, there doesn't need to be time to "let the lines breathe", because that's how you get these very awkward deliveries with big pauses in the middle of sentences.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by Scsigs » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:46 pm

Asura wrote:I see nothing wrong with these clips. They talk as fast as actual people talk in real life.

I mean, just listen to Schemmel in this clip from Z. There's no emotion in his voice, it sounds like he's ready to fall asleep. Even Sabat's delivery sounds weird at times, along with the nonsensical and random groaning towards the end. I won't even touch on the script since that's not what we're talking about, but it's almost laughable how bad it is. "You were always there, laughing in my face... Why won't you leave me alone!?" Like, what? :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbhtTlJYy3U

The deliveries of some of these lines feel like there's too much pausing. It doesn't feel like how people would talk in real life. Like at 24 seconds where Vegeta says "Oh really Kakarrot?" There's a big delay between "Oh really" and "Kakarrot?". Kai's dialogue sounds much more natural and fluid, there doesn't need to be time to "let the lines breathe", because that's how you get these very awkward deliveries with big pauses in the middle of sentences.
The main problem with it is that Vegeta still sounds like he's talking in Japanese rather than English in that clip, that's why the delivery's so off. The Japanese language has these cadences that have a lot of different pauses than in English. In Japanese, that probably didn't sound stilted, but in English, it does. It's like when Linkara brought up some of the ways Cole talked in Power Rangers Wild Force. Because some of the episodes were directed by Japanese directors rather than American ones, he picked up some of their speech patterns. "I don't know about space ships...or this Machine Empire...but I will go where I must...to protect the Earth." Linkara said that if you watched that in Japanese with subtitles, it wouldn't be as awkward. Have a listen: https://youtu.be/HSAsCvvMuXA?t=1m13s. I tend to agree. It's the same in that clip you brought up.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.

The epic tale of how Sean Schemmel blocked me on Twitter:
I tagged him in a thread explaining how his performance wasn't rerecorded when FUNi were redoing parts of the early Z dub for the Orange Bricks.
He thought I was misrepresenting his work by saying he wasn't in something he was in.
I explained how that wasn't the situation & did a bit of a sarcastic kinda thing involving the rerecordings FUNi did for the Z dub to show how stupid that was.
He said they didn't record him & not use his recordings.
Blocked & he deleted his response tweets to me.
???
Profit...?

Um...Listen to Waterparks.
That is all.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by ulisa » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:22 pm

In a word, no. I enjoy both. I tend to prefer the Z version though not just because that’s what I was first exposed to but because I do prefer some of the old voices. I admire the re-dub for its accuracy and the passion of the actors but what it boils down to is personal preference. I just plain like some of the old voices better—nothing but that.

My main thing though applies to both the original and dubbed version of Kai: sometimes, I think the lack of filler, while more accurate to the manga, hurts the story telling. Main case in point, Gohan’s training before the Saiyans. I felt like in Z, you really saw him change and develop and it FELT like this kid was really struggling and then began to grow. Kai, just because of what it is, feels almost rushed and we don’t get that development which I think really hurts it.
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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by TheLegend23 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:29 pm

Dragon Ball Z will always be near and dear to my heart, but Dragon Ball Kai has definitely become my go to for that part of the series. I’ve never cared about all the filler, I like a lot of it but it’s nice to have a closer manga adaptation.

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Re: As A FUNi Dub Fan, Has Z Kai Replaced Z for you?

Post by Jean0987654321 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:22 pm

Nope. AND it NEVER will!! :D

DBZ is my childhood. Coming home from elementary and watching DBZ brings me the best memories

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