Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Araki » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:38 am

The series is far more accepted, relevant and discussed now than it was in the first two arcs. Even those people who hate everything can't stop watching. It's the show that brings Crunchyroll down. Casuals love it, as far as i can tell.

Like it or not, the fact is Super is a massive success that pretty much ressurrected Dragon Ball as a top tier franchise, so it really doesn't need the approvation of a handful.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Totamo » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:25 pm

Faisal Shourov wrote:Super will never be remembered as a quality show. Current top shonen Boku No Hero Academia absolutely trashes Super in terms of writing (it's not even comparable, they're lightyears apart). No matter what they do now or in future, Super will always remain a show for the masses with overall substandard writing. It might have been acceptable back in 80s and 90s, but people's standards have really changed. I can't pretend myself to believe Super is quality show, unfortunately I don't even enjoy it most of the time. I will still follow it out of my obligation to DB franchise which created my childhood and biggest part of nostalgia.
There are so many things wrong with this paragraph.

1. My heroaca is not the top shonen, one piece is.


2. The third biggest shonen right now is black clover and if you are going to tell me that it has top writing, then maybe those words are more relative than I thought.


3. The 80's and 90's arguably had better anime than the 2010's were we get maybe one or two critically acclaimed series a season and they don't even get finished anymore.


4. Standards have not changed, people just complain more because the internet loves to do that. Things that succeed back then, succeed now. Case in point black clover, an anime filled with cliches.


5. If you are watching super out of obligation instead of enjoyment or interest, you have taken entertainment too seriously.
'

Super was not made to tell a story but then again dragon ball wasn't either. It was made to entertain young boys and It has been bashed throughout the entire anime community. Tell anybody you like dragon ball, they will think you are high on nostalgia. I call it an anime critics favorite whipping boy. Just state the 3 biggets problems of super that most say. Its inconsistent, it drags on and consequences don't matter.


That sounds like dragon ball to the regular casual.


But we love it anyway because its fun and thats all it ever tried to be.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Lionel » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:05 pm

I do feel like our expectations have evolved over the years since we originally watched Dragon Ball as children. Being what it is, many would dispute that Dragon Ball is a children's cartoon geared towards children. For me, I think that's true to some extent, but Toei is certainly aware of the older audience and fanbase that is tuning in from all across the globe. Furthermore, if Dragon Ball was purely a children's based cartoon then you might as well rebrand it as a kodomo intended for elementary school children. Despite harsher regulatory measures against things like explicit violence that entails blood or mutilation, Dragon Ball Super still looks like a cartoon/manga that appeals to teenagers/young adults initially, in my opinion.

If Dragon Ball is trying to make a resurgence in this day and age then I feel like it's fair game to hold it to the standards that have been developed since the 90s. In my opinion, Super is rife with so many contradictions, generic writing methods, and confusing elements that you find yourself asking if Toei, Toriyama, and Toyotaro have any commitment to the series' integrity beyond just making it visually pretty so it can sell well. Yes, Dragon Ball is ultimately a series intended to generate profit, but does the universe itself, the lore, and its mechanics not hold any significant value to these content creators? I still enjoy it for what it is, but it definitely goes without saying that the experience leaves a lot to be desired.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by DSB » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:24 pm

People crap over Super because there's no Nostalgia. I can guarantee you that these same people who hate super would have LOATHED Z back in the day. But they were younger when they saw it. And we all know Nostalgia sells. Z was terrible in terms of writing too. You talk about Super's asspulls? Frigging Cell was an asspull itself. Only brought up because people other than Toriyama didnt like the Androids. The WHOLE of Cell Saga was written on the fly. They dont even make sense. Namek saga was the perfect story since DragonBall and ToP has the same level of urgency and story like Namek Saga. Cell saga wasnt as good as people think. Buu Saga was pathetic.


Super has picked up a lot. And this is the Absolute best. Honestly had we not seen EoZ, i would have doubt if U7 would not been erased. Super is "bad" because you already know EoZ. ToP> Cell saga >>> Buu saga.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by TheMikado » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:30 pm

Araki wrote:The series is far more accepted, relevant and discussed now than it was in the first two arcs. Even those people who hate everything can't stop watching. It's the show that brings Crunchyroll down. Casuals love it, as far as i can tell.

Like it or not, the fact is Super is a massive success that pretty much ressurrected Dragon Ball as a top tier franchise, so it really doesn't need the approvation of a handful.
I really feel like this thread needs some perspective.

First the Dragonball Franchise is similar to Star Wars.
Where ANYTHING new or even re-released will do incredibly number by virtue of the franchise itself,
NOT NOT NOT the quality of the thing which is part of the franchise.

For perspective. Star Wars the Phantom Menace, despite being almost universally panned is STILL in the TOP TEN grossing films OF ALL TIME!!!
Again a separation from the franchise versus the actual product is a must.
We've seen both DB kai and GT give Nicktoons record numbers which content that isn't new. If we were to take the same approach as Super we could claim that GT and Kai were both excellent shows by virtue of the numbers themselves, however it has less to do with the individual quality and more to do with the franchise in and of itself.

At present Super when compared to the other series is the worst ranked Dragonball series on average. It just is. And that's fine too. Super stands primarily on its brand as a new series from an established franchise. For it to be more than that it would have to serve a greater purpose than just being that.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by sintzu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:41 pm

Totamo wrote:If you are watching super out of obligation instead of enjoyment or interest, you have taken entertainment too seriously.
I don't think he means it literally. I think it's more in lines with being invested for so long that he might as well see what comes next to be able to fairly judge it.
Lionel wrote:Being what it is, many would dispute that Dragon Ball is a children's cartoon geared towards children.

If Dragon Ball is trying to make a resurgence in this day and age then I feel like it's fair game to hold it to the standards that have been developed since the 90s.

You find yourself asking if Toei, Toriyama, and Toyotaro have any commitment to the series' integrity beyond just making it visually pretty so it can sell well. Does the lore not hold any significant value to these content creators? It definitely goes without saying that the experience leaves a lot to be desired.
All Shonen are aimed at kids but unlike Super, the original DB and others such as One Piece were good enough to bring in older people. I can still watch DB & Z alongside newer anime and still enjoy it just as much as I did before.

Super for some reason gets a pass for everything yet other shows get ripped apart for doing a fraction of what it's done.

Toyotarou has done his best with what he's been given but Toei and Toriyama being the real powers of the franchise have indeed left a lot to be desired. Apart from BOG they've been playing everything very safe and trying to cator to fans as much as possible. BOG has shown that DB can still be original and doesn't need to rely on nostalgia and popular ideas but for some reason they decided to go the safe rout after.
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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by namekiansaiyan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:05 pm

The problems I have with Super is its wasted potential and its bad use of its characters.

They are wasting the other Universes and any characters from them. When they do concentrate on other characters it is just Saiyans from universe 6 again or annoying characters like Ribrianne who is suppose to be an annoying.

They had a great chance to spread the screen time to other Universe 7 members but they decided to give most of it to Goku again in the Tournament Of Power as of episode 115.

All they have to do is introduce a wide varitey of new characters with lore without wasting them along with half decent fights that includes different members of Universe 7.

There only has to be very simple story that connects these all these characters and fights together.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by sangofe » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:19 pm

Master Xar wrote:Honestly I’ve taken a step back to look at the grand picture of how Super is viewed by both casual and hardcore fans and... I gotta say it’s not looking good even with the current arc, it seems that no matter what Super does or how well it’s pulled off it feels like people’s standards are too high nowadays for it to be viewed as genuinely good, don’t get me wrong I know Super is flawed, but especially after the Black arc plenty of people have just seemed to give up on the series or go the alternative “turn your brain off” route... it gets kinda depressing once you think about it.

So what would it take?

What level of quality all-around would it take for Super to TRULY win the crowd back? Because at this point It’d have to have at LEAST 2-3 arcs of some of if not the best Shounen Arcs of all time with beautiful animation, masterfully choreographed fights, compelling narratives, etc. and generate hype even BIGGER than the Black Arc did with ZERO slip-ups...

I dunno maybe it’s just from all the bad news and negativity towards the arc that’s been going around that’s been depressing me regarding the show...
You're basing this off posts from message boards and not viewership numbers, are you? Because they say something different, plus the re tellings did really well in ratings too.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by sintzu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:30 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:They are wasting the other Universes and any characters from them. When they do concentrate on other characters it is just Saiyans from universe 6 again or annoying characters like Ribrianne.

They had a great chance to spread the screen time to other Universe 7 members but they decided to give most of it to Goku again in the Tournament Of Power as of episode 115.
When the idea was first brought up in BOG everyone went crazy with all these ideas and when the arc got announced the sky was the limit but as we should've seen coming, everything has been wasted in favor of more fan service with just the saiyans and magician girls parody. If anything the lore seems smaller than it was when everything was left to our imagination.

Same as the above, everyone was excited to see their favorite characters get their time to shine but so far its just been Goku, Goku and more Goku. Even Freeza who they went to all the trouble to bring back is just there, he's yet to do anything to justify his 3RD return.
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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:57 pm

sintzu wrote:All Shonen are aimed at kids but unlike Super, the original DB and others such as One Piece were good enough to bring in older people. I can still watch DB & Z alongside newer anime and still enjoy it just as much as I did before.
Um... what are you basing that on?

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Faisal Shourov » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:05 pm

sintzu wrote:
Most anime don't have to do much to top it at this point.

If the original was like this then there's no way it would've taken off the way it did.

If I wasn't so invested in the franchise already I most likely would've dropped it as well. If this show didn't have the DB name it wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as it has.
Same here. Some people just can't handle criticism really. I didn't even say Super is a bad show (not all anime are quality, most aren't). However Super won't be a top tier anime that's for sure. It has weak writing which you nobody can deny (well Goku Black arc was decent, but ToP is...you get it). It does have its moments definitely, but that's not good enough

If anybody thinks Super would be the same success without DB and DBZ they're kidding themselves.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Faisal Shourov » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:28 pm

Totamo wrote: There are so many things wrong with this paragraph.

1. My heroaca is not the top shonen, one piece is.


2. The third biggest shonen right now is black clover and if you are going to tell me that it has top writing, then maybe those words are more relative than I thought.
Do you actually check the manga sales or no? My Hero Academia is no.5 in Japan manga sales. Black Clover isn't in top 25. And yes, MHA absolutely trashes Super in writing, Super doesn't even have a plot outside Future Trunks Arc.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... 17/.116861

Standards have changed indeed, internet allows us to watch all possible anime and not a few battle shonen on Toonami once a week. People have been spoiled by anime like Steins Gate, Death Note, Hunter x Hunter or Code Geass etc. There are many anime now with actual plot, character development complex world building, people aren't restricted to battle shonen anymore. I can't be in denial and tell myself and say Super's writing is on par with some of the better written shows.

I do take entertainment seriously, I have a very busy life and anime/manga/video games are my stress relief. I pay for my anime subscription to Crunchyroll so I have some right to complain. I am not unreasonably bashing Super and saying it's complete trash. I do want to see it improved, and it has many flaws which Toei could've fixed but chose not to.

Dragon Ball/Z definitely had a story. You could say it was repetitive and not deep but there was definitely plot for every new arc. So far Super had 2 movie remake arcs, a decent U6 tournament, the only arc with some plot (Future Trunks Arc), some extended slice of life recruitment episodes and now another tournament which has been dragged far too long. Not much plot in Super, is there? No nostalgia here, just objective analysis

I have no problem if you enjoy it, that's ok.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by sintzu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:31 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Um... what are you basing that on?
For One Piece.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comme ... one_piece/

For other fans the fact that older people enjoy shows like DB, Naruto, HunterXHunter, etc.
Faisal Shourov wrote:well Goku Black arc was decent, but ToP is...you get it.
That's the thing, from the Champa arc things started to get better but somehow they messed it up again.
Faisal Shourov wrote: I can't be in denial and tell myself and say Super's writing is on par with some of the better written shows.
If there's one thing I dislike more than Super's up and down quality is the fans that try to bring other anime down to justify what it does.
Faisal Shourov wrote:It has many flaws which Toei could've fixed but chose not to.
That's because Super is made to sell merchandise, not sell the actual show.
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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:01 pm

sintzu wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Um... what are you basing that on?
For One Piece.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comme ... one_piece/.
What age demographics appeal to One Piece is by no means connected to the age demographics that appeals to Dragon Ball Super.
Faisal Shourov wrote:Dragon Ball/Z definitely had a story. You could say it was repetitive and not deep but there was definitely plot for every new arc. So far Super had 2 movie remake arcs, a decent U6 tournament, the only arc with some plot (Future Trunks Arc), some extended slice of life recruitment episodes and now another tournament which has been dragged far too long. Not much plot in Super, is there? No nostalgia here, just objective analysis.
Nothing is objective of how much more of a story there is in Super compared to DB/Z. Every arc in Dragon Ball follows the same structure:

- Major threat(s) appears
- Major threat(s) make an impression
- Protagonist(s) fight major threat(s)
- Protagonist(s) lose
- Protagonist(s) become stronger
- Protagonist(s) defeat major threat(s)

THE END

With the exception of Tournament arcs, which also all function the same in terms of narrative structure, that's Dragon Ball basic narrative structure. How much mileage you gain out that structure will always vary.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Totamo » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:22 pm

Faisal Shourov wrote:
Totamo wrote: There are so many things wrong with this paragraph.

1. My heroaca is not the top shonen, one piece is.


2. The third biggest shonen right now is black clover and if you are going to tell me that it has top writing, then maybe those words are more relative than I thought.
Do you actually check the manga sales or no? My Hero Academia is no.5 in Japan manga sales. Black Clover isn't in top 25. And yes, MHA absolutely trashes Super in writing, Super doesn't even have a plot outside Future Trunks Arc.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... 17/.116861

Standards have changed indeed, internet allows us to watch all possible anime and not a few battle shonen on Toonami once a week. People have been spoiled by anime like Steins Gate, Death Note, Hunter x Hunter or Code Geass etc. There are many anime now with actual plot, character development complex world building, people aren't restricted to battle shonen anymore. I can't be in denial and tell myself and say Super's writing is on par with some of the better written shows.

I do take entertainment seriously, I have a very busy life and anime/manga/video games are my stress relief. I pay for my anime subscription to Crunchyroll so I have some right to complain. I am not unreasonably bashing Super and saying it's complete trash. I do want to see it improved, and it has many flaws which Toei could've fixed but chose not to.

Dragon Ball/Z definitely had a story. You could say it was repetitive and not deep but there was definitely plot for every new arc. So far Super had 2 movie remake arcs, a decent U6 tournament, the only arc with some plot (Future Trunks Arc), some extended slice of life recruitment episodes and now another tournament which has been dragged far too long. Not much plot in Super, is there? No nostalgia here, just objective analysis

I have no problem if you enjoy it, that's ok.
1. Its still One Piece so you are still wrong.


2. The internet does not dictate the standards of manga or anime even so standards don't really matter as they don't dictate success, which is the only thing that matters when it comes to releasing more work which is those "many anime" barely get sequels.


3. Code Geass sucks.


4.Super does have a plot, thats why they are called arcs. Its when things happen. Every single arc in super has had a beginning, a middle and an end. If you dislike them thats cool. But they do have plots otherwise they couldn't have plotholes.


5. I never said dragon ball/z didn't have a story , i said those 3 things are what many say super does wrong ( inconsistent, drags on, consequences don't matter) can be said about the other 2.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by sintzu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:36 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Every arc in Dragon Ball follows the same structure:

- Major threat(s) appears
- Major threat(s) make an impression
- Protagonist(s) fight major threat(s)
- Protagonist(s) lose
- Protagonist(s) become stronger
- Protagonist(s) defeat major threat(s)

THE END
This applies to every Shonen. You make it seem like DB has no character development or plot twists.
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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:29 pm

sintzu wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Every arc in Dragon Ball follows the same structure:

- Major threat(s) appears
- Major threat(s) make an impression
- Protagonist(s) fight major threat(s)
- Protagonist(s) lose
- Protagonist(s) become stronger
- Protagonist(s) defeat major threat(s)

THE END
This applies to every Shonen. You make it seem like DB has no character development or plot twists.
I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm just say that the plot of Dragon Ball/Z/GT/Super is formulaic and simple. That's not an inherently good or bad thing. That's just how Dragon Ball's overall plot works.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by TheZFighter » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:31 pm

Super is definitely fighting an uphill battle. I feel Super has done some really good stuff, and of course some not-so-good stuff, but unfortunately Super will always be compared to the work or art that was Dragon Ball and DBZ, and whilst it will have its good point, it just won't ever be as good. Someone said "damned if you do, damned if you don't" earlier on in the thread - that pretty much nailed it for me.

A bit of a side point really, but one thing that still pains me, even though it had already happened towards the latter stages of Z, is the "dissolving" of the "original fighting cast". I remember after Goku's fight with Piccolo Jr, Master Roshi gave this great speech to Kami about "these eight kids", referring to Goku, Bulma, Yamcha, Krillin, Launch, Tien, Chiaotzu and Yajirobe. I am probably alone here (probably stemming from wishful thinking on my part!), but this always gave me the feeling that the "main fighting cast" was going to be Goku, Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Chiaotzu and, to a lesser extent, Yajirobe, the Z-Fighters (perhaps used in a way not too dissimilar to the Straw Hat Pirates?). Throw in Piccolo Jr. joining later on as well, with cameos from Master Roshi and others (Android 8, Bora, Upa, etc) and I think I'd have been set for life with that group. Unfortunately, as we all know, DBZ became the "Goku 'n' his Saiyan Friends" show, and the other characters became less prominent.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Vegeta (I find I appreciate him a lot more now than I did when I was a child), Gohan has had some enjoyable moments, and I'm a big fan of Android 17 and 18, but they'll never replace the original Z Fighter "feel" for me, and that will always be a big issue. The enemies keep getting insanely strong and they keep introducing new forms, and I'll struggle to maintain an interest. The Tournament of Power was a nice idea, getting the likes of Krillin, Tien and Roshi involved again, but meh...
Z-Fighters fan.

Goku, Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Chiaotzu, Yajirobe, Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Android 18, Goten, Trunks and Majin Buu.

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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by sintzu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:38 pm

TheZFighter wrote:Super will always be compared to the work or art that was Dragon Ball and DBZ.

A bit of a side point really, but one thing that still pains me, even though it had already happened towards the latter stages of Z, is the "dissolving" of the "original fighting cast".
As it should be, if they're going to come out with a sequel after so long then they better do everything and then some to make it just as good. Another thing is that it costs just as much as faaaaar better shows so of course people are going to be hard on it.

I would've liked to see an arc before the Saiyan arc that focuses on them fighting some threat.
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Re: Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

Post by Faisal Shourov » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:42 pm

Totamo wrote: 1. Its still One Piece so you are still wrong.


2. The internet does not dictate the standards of manga or anime even so standards don't really matter as they don't dictate success, which is the only thing that matters when it comes to releasing more work which is those "many anime" barely get sequels.


3. Code Geass sucks.


4.Super does have a plot, thats why they are called arcs. Its when things happen. Every single arc in super has had a beginning, a middle and an end. If you dislike them thats cool. But they do have plots otherwise they couldn't have plotholes.


5. I never said dragon ball/z didn't have a story , i said those 3 things are what many say super does wrong ( inconsistent, drags on, consequences don't matter) can be said about the other 2.
1. So One Piece is the only manga that matters? BNHA is in top 5 so it matters a lot. Both trash Super in writing, it's not hard to do.

2. Internet gives us options, and we can see the flaws of Super by comparing.

3. Your opinion but fair enough

4. Super has no plot outside FT Arc. What plot do you see in Goku eliminating fodders in ToP? Is that what you consider plot? No wonder you think Code Geass sucks.

5. Yes DB/DBZ drag on too, but they don't have plot limited to one arc only. Then again, you think ToP has plot so I don't know what to say to you.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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