Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

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SuperSaiyaManZ94
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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:39 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:32 pm
TheGreatness25 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:57 pm I find it so funny that they somehow correlated the aspect ratio to sales. Never minding that the orange bricks were cheaper, packed more episodes per release, were the only complete release, and were the only alternative to the original singles that were incomplete and fit four episodes per disc max. But they still thought that the aspect ratio was the big tipping point that created the difference between the orange bricks' sales versus the Level Sets? Who conducted this research? Lol
To credit the aspect ratio and DNR for the sales, is laughable and reeks of an agenda.
The way I see it, they didn't single out DNR and aspect ratio alone, but rather just looked at the Orange Bricks and tried to replicate nearly everything about them, just in HD and with some better tools. They cropped it, just like the Orange Bricks. They removed the grain, just like the Orange Bricks. They made it brighter, just like the Orange Bricks. And they even sold it at a low price-per-episode, just like the Orange Bricks. It seems like they didn't want to take any risks, so they just went all in on copying what the Orange Bricks did. Then, lo and behold, the Season Blu-rays are massively successful and so they likely patted themselves on the back for their decision-making.

We know which factors actually mattered in those releases' success so it's frustrating that they seem to have no insight into this. And now that they're finally allowing for a 4:3 version, how many people are really going to fork over the money for these steelbooks, especially since they're on the same format as the previous release? My fear is that if these steelbooks don't sell that well, then they're going to see two cropped releases that sold well and two 4:3 releases that underperformed, and draw all the wrong conclusions from that once again.
I just have my fingers crossed that this thing with these steelbook repackages of the 30th set masters isn't going to be a repeat of what happened the last time FUNi attempted to do a 4:3 release with the Level sets almost a decade ago now, and like that they decide it isn't working out and immediately backslide to having fake widescreen be the de facto and only readily available release on the shelves in stores and yet again leave a lot of fans (especially those who don't already have long OOP sets like the Dragon Boxes or singles in their collections) with no easy or affordable way to get DBZ in the correct aspect ratio.

It took almost a decade for them to come around to putting out another 4:3 version of the series, let's hope they stick to that going forward for releases and not start doing cropped ones again.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:06 am

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:35 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:26 pm Despite how they try to talk up the Season Sets in their video, FUNi knows the Level Sets are the superior restoration. DNR is a cheap and easy way to do the lion’s share of cleanup.
No, you are wrong about this. DNR means "digital noise reduction". It reduces noise, not tape marks/scratches/etc. Occasionally, it can get rid of some dirt, but not always. There are specific tools to get rid of scratches and tape marks and they are manual, otherwise you'd get significant artifacting. And the fact that they are 99% gone on the 30th, means that manual work was done on it.
FUNi’s not going to say “we don’t think the higher quality product will be profitable, so we’re doing this instead.” And the Season Sets, as well as the 30th have a tighter crop than the Level Sets that gets rid of the tape marks. Think about it. Do you think the company who is doing the restorations isn’t going to know which one is better... but the fanboys do...? Do you really think FUNimation actually believes that “Dragon Ball fans like DNR”? No, they know that most fans are clueless. Here is some startling evidence regarding the general public knowledge of DBZ on home video: I was in my local F.Y.E. the other day and they are selling the ORANGE BRICKS for $45 per season!!!!
About this "tighter crop" myth, please do some actual research. The "tighter crop" is episode 1 only! Did you know that by the time we're at the Saiyan fight, that the 30th sometimes shows more of the frame than the Levels?! In the Buu arc, we have Japanese tv recordings to compare and see where tape marks should be....and, once again, the shots on the 30th have their tape marks removed whereas the tv recordings have them at the end of every single shot. The 30th is significantly zoomed out but no tape marks can be found.

And about whether "Funimation actually believes" that Dragon Ball fans like DNR, have you listened to Kanzenshuu's interview with the former Funimation marketing guy? Please listen to it because he actually explains that the decision to crop on the Season Blu-rays and disregard the 4:3 vs 16:9 survey was down to sales numbers; the Orange Bricks sold more so they ignored the survey and cropped it anyway.
I just want to make sure I am reading this correctly. You are saying that the Level Set restoration was completely done and is saved on FUNi’s hard drive?

And so your theory is that FUNi took the Level Set files and ran them through the DVNR, sharpening, etc. to change the “look.” Because they thought that looked better? And that is how the 30th was made?

That can’t be true because we know that the 30th is cropped differently, most notably episode 1, to remove film damage. The Level Sets repaired this digitally and has a wider 4:3 crop.

So... your theory is that FUNi went back to the color corrected scans and RE-DONE all the frame by frame manual digital cleanup, and THEN ran it through the DVNR, sharpening, etc.? That doesn’t make sense either. Why would they re-do all the time intensive manual work they had already done if they had completed the Level Sets?

The only logical explanation is that the Level Sets were NOT completed, otherwise those would have been used as the basis for the 30th... whether it had DVNR or not.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:37 am

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:42 am
Lightningexpose wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:23 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:26 pm Lightningexpose:
What is your opinion of what an ideal HD home video presentation of DBZ should be? How do you think it should be scanned, restored, and processed... to go from looking like a jacked up grindhouse film to a pristine HD anime? Sorry to put you on the spot, but I would like to hear your opinion.
No worries, it's not a difficult to just say ideals.

If it's Toei:
-Go back to the negatives
-4K scan (HDR/log scan if it's dark and contrasty) (not by Qtec, ideally an American scanning company--this is normal for many anime)
-Clean up dust/dirt/stains/scratches/tapemarks and stabilise+deflicker (they did all this for DBox so it's not as crazy as it sounds)
--------Though I'm not saying they need to absolutely clean it up to perfection, some jitter and dirt doesn't hurt imo
-Colour correct by first balancing all tinting and then dynamic range and vibrancy similar to Kai/Cels, but should be more consistent than Kai. Kai had lots of inconsistency. People who still question this colour correction and think it's an attempt to modernise should probably take a look at some original broadcast Fuji TV VHS/betamax caps:
Obviously that's old deteriorated LQ videotape footage with issues like too low saturation and a bit of overexposure but if you mentally compensate for it you should be able to tell you end up with something that looks a lot closer to Kai than it does to level sets.
-Since it's from the negatives noise reduction might not be needed but if dynamic range restoration has led to amplified grain then some reduction might be in order. This isn't saying create a grainless product, but trust me post-CC grain can get kind of ugly. There are ways to CC that doesn't affect grain at all but I wouldn't expect this level from them.
-Crop to 4:3 similar to level sets, maintaining as much footage as possible in the framing
-Keep 4K master to stay future proof for when 4K tv series releases becomes normal, but for now downsize it to 2K for Blu-ray and hire the best Blu-ray compressionist in Japan


If it's funimation:
-Everything like above except HDR/log scanning should be essential just because their multigen prints are way darker and so it's better to lift as much as you can from the crushed blacks of the saiyan arc prints

Though colour correction can come before the film cleanup step, from my experience with really old and damaged film, it's easier to CC once flickering and coloured stains etc have been removed, as well as chroma noise/grain. The Pink Panther Blu-rays did a nice job keeping grain but removing all the chroma noise.
Thank you for your detailed response.

DBZ in 4K... now that will be the day! I wonder if Toei or FUNi has any interest? My gut says “no” with FUNi because they don’t even want to invest their resources on a regular HD restoration, and maybe no with Toei too. They have already done the Dragon Box and the Kai remastering, and now FUNi has got their version in the US, Canada, and UK. Maybe another 10 years from now? A new generation in the market for a home video release, and the collectors ready to shell out money again.

I do think it would be smart to release the Dragon Boxes in SD BD. The work is already done and there is a market for it!
Some pages back I made a comment on a 4k DB home release. I'll just restate it more or less since it'll take forever to find the exact comment. I believe a 4k release of DB would be pointless. There is only so much detail you could possibly bring out of 16mm film with high-res scans before you hit seriously diminishing returns. Especially with Funi's multi-generational copies.
First time Dragon Ball fan as of March 2020. Still learning the ropes. Nothing much else to say,

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:48 am

Maybe Toei will give it a shot. As I've said before (maybe in this thread or another), no matter what Funimation does, their release cannot be perfect because the masters that they're working off of aren't the originals. Toei are the only ones that can put out a perfect, untouched Dragon Ball/Z release. And I would gladly take a release with the rounded off edges and the non-standard aspect ratio to get the entire frame with zero cropping -- why not? Any version of 4:3 isn't really "compatible" with modern TVs, so who cares if it's cropped into 4:3 or left totally unaltered?

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:27 am

I think the ship has sailed on TOEI doing a true HD remaster since they didn't do one for the 30th anniversary. They likely just remastered the movies and specials because it's less work and less money for them to do.

At best we will probably get SD-BDs like what they are putting out next year for One Piece, which will amount to nothing better than an upscaled Dragon Box.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:37 pm

Jhanzie wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:06 am I just want to make sure I am reading this correctly. You are saying that the Level Set restoration was completely done and is saved on FUNi’s hard drive?

And so your theory is that FUNi took the Level Set files and ran them through the DVNR, sharpening, etc. to change the “look.” Because they thought that looked better? And that is how the 30th was made?

That can’t be true because we know that the 30th is cropped differently, most notably episode 1, to remove film damage. The Level Sets repaired this digitally and has a wider 4:3 crop.

So... your theory is that FUNi went back to the color corrected scans and RE-DONE all the frame by frame manual digital cleanup, and THEN ran it through the DVNR, sharpening, etc.? That doesn’t make sense either. Why would they re-do all the time intensive manual work they had already done if they had completed the Level Sets?

The only logical explanation is that the Level Sets were NOT completed, otherwise those would have been used as the basis for the 30th... whether it had DVNR or not.
Okay so the first thing you need to understand is the actual process and what order things were generally done in for the Levels:
1.) Scan and color correction
2.) Cleanup work
3.) Cropping from full frame to 4:3
4.) Encode it for consumer distribution

Once all 4 steps are done for a given episode, then we can say the Level Set version of that episode was complete. So in that sense, no the Levels were not completed. We don't know exactly where they stopped, but we do know that they at least went 5 episodes beyond the final Blu-ray release since episodes 35-39 were streaming on Xbox Live at some point. And we've seen preview footage for episodes up to future Trunks.

We also know that the Levels were officially cancelled in February 2012 while the first Season Blu-ray trailer dropped in October 2013. So in the 1.67 years in between, they presumably restarted work on DBZ Blu-rays. And only 4 months before the first Season's trailer released, they put out an online survey asking fans if they preferred 4:3 or 16:9. So this must mean that they had restarted work without knowing if it would be 4:3 or 16:9, which means that they likely did a full frame restoration in case it would be 4:3. There is a strong indication of this in the fact that the Season Blu-rays are selectively cropped, rather than center cropped, which means that they sometimes would have had a tape mark visible, if that tape mark wasn't removed.
Here's a shot from a Japanese tv airing with a tape mark:
Now here's that shot on the Season Blu-ray, which is panned down enough that we should be able to see some of the tape mark, but we don't:
In addition to continuing Step 2 (the cleanup work), it also seems like they actually went back and improved the cleanup work done for the Levels, specifically the tape mark removal. The thing to understand is that Step 3 (the cropping) comes after Step 2 (the cleanup) and so they may have had to re-do the cropping if they decided to roll back to Step 2.
Here's a shot without cleanup (from the Level Set making-of video):
Here's the Level Set version (note how there's artifacting on the bottom with some rocks not belonging and some half-disappearing):
Now here's the 30th version (the tape mark removal is perfect):
So yeah, by having to roll back to Step 2 in order to improve the tape mark cleanup, this may have meant that they couldn't copy-paste the crop settings from the Levels, and so they had to re-do the cropping from scratch. This can explain the differences in cropping between the Levels and 30th. About episode 1, the excessive crop is weird but the Levels weren't as cropped for it so the explanation can't be that it's to hide film damage. My guess is that they were sloppy on episode 1, but heard some criticism after releasing their first trailer, and so they got their act together for later episodes and were more careful about the cropping. So what they have finished on their hard drives is not fully completed "Level Sets", but rather a fully complete full-frame restoration of their 16mm film (before any cropping), which was likely done during the 2012-2014 years between the Levels cancellation and Season Blu-ray releases.

To create the Season Blu-rays, they took this restoration and did a selective pan-and-scan 16:9 crop for each episode along with their DNR/sharpening and color adjustments. To create the 30th Anniversary release, they again went back to that base restoration and cropped it to 4:3 for each episode along with their DNR/sharpening and color adjustments.

So what's the overall point I'm making? Basically that a solid restoration was done, even after the Levels were cancelled. But this restoration keeps being ruined by Funimation's need to apply ugly DNR and sharpening filters to it. If they turned these filters off, then we could easily have something similar to the Levels, but with the cropping of the 30th.

This is a shot from the 30th:
They could have easily given us this instead, which has the exact same cropping, but with their ugly filters turned off:

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:54 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:37 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:06 am I just want to make sure I am reading this correctly. You are saying that the Level Set restoration was completely done and is saved on FUNi’s hard drive?

And so your theory is that FUNi took the Level Set files and ran them through the DVNR, sharpening, etc. to change the “look.” Because they thought that looked better? And that is how the 30th was made?

That can’t be true because we know that the 30th is cropped differently, most notably episode 1, to remove film damage. The Level Sets repaired this digitally and has a wider 4:3 crop.

So... your theory is that FUNi went back to the color corrected scans and RE-DONE all the frame by frame manual digital cleanup, and THEN ran it through the DVNR, sharpening, etc.? That doesn’t make sense either. Why would they re-do all the time intensive manual work they had already done if they had completed the Level Sets?

The only logical explanation is that the Level Sets were NOT completed, otherwise those would have been used as the basis for the 30th... whether it had DVNR or not.
Okay so the first thing you need to understand is the actual process and what order things were generally done in for the Levels:
1.) Scan and color correction
2.) Cleanup work
3.) Cropping from full frame to 4:3
4.) Encode it for consumer distribution

Once all 4 steps are done for a given episode, then we can say the Level Set version of that episode was complete. So in that sense, no the Levels were not completed. We don't know exactly where they stopped, but we do know that they at least went 5 episodes beyond the final Blu-ray release since episodes 35-39 were streaming on Xbox Live at some point. And we've seen preview footage for episodes up to future Trunks.

We also know that the Levels were officially cancelled in February 2012 while the first Season Blu-ray trailer dropped in October 2013. So in the 1.67 years in between, they presumably restarted work on DBZ Blu-rays. And only 4 months before the first Season's trailer released, they put out an online survey asking fans if they preferred 4:3 or 16:9. So this must mean that they had restarted work without knowing if it would be 4:3 or 16:9, which means that they likely did a full frame restoration in case it would be 4:3. There is a strong indication of this in the fact that the Season Blu-rays are selectively cropped, rather than center cropped, which means that they sometimes would have had a tape mark visible, if that tape mark wasn't removed.
Here's a shot from a Japanese tv airing with a tape mark:
Now here's that shot on the Season Blu-ray, which is panned down enough that we should be able to see some of the tape mark, but we don't:
In addition to continuing Step 2 (the cleanup work), it also seems like they actually went back and improved the cleanup work done for the Levels, specifically the tape mark removal. The thing to understand is that Step 3 (the cropping) comes after Step 2 (the cleanup) and so they may have had to re-do the cropping if they decided to roll back to Step 2.
Here's a shot without cleanup (from the Level Set making-of video):
Here's the Level Set version (note how there's artifacting on the bottom with some rocks not belonging and some half-disappearing):
Now here's the 30th version (the tape mark removal is perfect):
So yeah, by having to roll back to Step 2 in order to improve the tape mark cleanup, this may have meant that they couldn't copy-paste the crop settings from the Levels, and so they had to re-do the cropping from scratch. This can explain the differences in cropping between the Levels and 30th. About episode 1, the excessive crop is weird but the Levels weren't as cropped for it so the explanation can't be that it's to hide film damage. My guess is that they were sloppy on episode 1, but heard some criticism after releasing their first trailer, and so they got their act together for later episodes and were more careful about the cropping. So what they have finished on their hard drives is not fully completed "Level Sets", but rather a fully complete full-frame restoration of their 16mm film (before any cropping), which was likely done during the 2012-2014 years between the Levels cancellation and Season Blu-ray releases.

To create the Season Blu-rays, they took this restoration and did a selective pan-and-scan 16:9 crop for each episode along with their DNR/sharpening and color adjustments. To create the 30th Anniversary release, they again went back to that base restoration and cropped it to 4:3 for each episode along with their DNR/sharpening and color adjustments.

So what's the overall point I'm making? Basically that a solid restoration was done, even after the Levels were cancelled. But this restoration keeps being ruined by Funimation's need to apply ugly DNR and sharpening filters to it. If they turned these filters off, then we could easily have something similar to the Levels, but with the cropping of the 30th.

This is a shot from the 30th:
They could have easily given us this instead, which has the exact same cropping, but with their ugly filters turned off:
I am aware of the step by step process, and I understand what you are saying here.

Did you see the FUNimation blog post last year regarding the 30th? They showed their 16mm film scans for episode 1, and specifically damage in the lower right hand corner. It actually showed them cropping it tighter to remove the damaged corner. I tried to access that post the other day and couldn’t get to it, otherwise I would post a picture here.

So here’s a thought. What if there was another step. A step 1.5. This would have been a general cleanup for the entire series, removing the major flaws, especially the tape marks. Then step 2 was a second, more in depth cleanup, which became the Level Sets.

What I am proposing here, is that perhaps FUNimation went back to step 1.5 for the Season Sets and the 30th, and did their DVNR/sharpening for the entire series for the sake of consistency.

That would explain the 2 mysteries. First, why the 30th’s first episode film damage was cropped when it was previously fixed for the Level Sets. Second, why in the heck they did heavy DVNR/Sharpening in the first place!!! Why smudge the image then sharpen it? I think it was to do a cheap, consistent clean-up on the image for the entire series. If they were working from a Level Set quality image in the first place, the heavy DVNR wouldn’t have been necessary to diminish the film grain, and give it a more modern look.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by kyppk » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:17 pm

If we take Funi at their word, then they cropped for damage/irregularities and consistent framing per scene
The result of this project is that some parts of the film have indeed been cropped, and in certain shots, more is cropped than other shots depending on the amount of image missing, due to the requirement to keep everything at a consistent 4:3 ratio.
and applied DNVR because people bought other sets with DNVR and didn't "support" sets without DNVR enough
Regarding the image itself, there is some digital video noise reduction to clean up some of the noise, dust and grain from the original film materials, which we felt was mandatory for this release based on the different levels of fan support from various past DBZ releases with different levels of noise reduction over the years.
from https://www.funimation.com/blog/2019/04 ... s-created/



I suppose one interesting tidbit is that the original materials only show the Saiyan, Namek, and Cell Sagas but don't show any shots into Other World or beyond. I wonder why they chose to exclude comparison shots from almost 1/4th of the show, perhaps work had only just finished on the Cell Saga at the time?

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:59 pm

Jhanzie wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:54 pm I am aware of the step by step process, and I understand what you are saying here.

Did you see the FUNimation blog post last year regarding the 30th? They showed their 16mm film scans for episode 1, and specifically damage in the lower right hand corner. It actually showed them cropping it tighter to remove the damaged corner. I tried to access that post the other day and couldn’t get to it, otherwise I would post a picture here.
I have seen the blog post and I've put together a little comparison to show the cropping differences:
https://slow.pics/c/pCg2dv4K
As you can see, whatever "damage" is present was cropped away on the Level Sets, not digitally fixed. But for some reason, the 30th is cropped well beyond what is necessary to hide that damage. And based on the images shown on the blog post, the blue strip thing seems consistent throughout the episode. So again, I think that when they rolled back to the cleanup step (in order to improve the tape mark removal), this undid the cropping which was on the Levels, which meant that they had to re-crop from scratch, and they just happened to do it very sloppily for episode 1 before improving.
So here’s a thought. What if there was another step. A step 1.5. This would have been a general cleanup for the entire series, removing the major flaws, especially the tape marks. Then step 2 was a second, more in depth cleanup, which became the Level Sets.

What I am proposing here, is that perhaps FUNimation went back to step 1.5 for the Season Sets and the 30th, and did their DVNR/sharpening for the entire series for the sake of consistency.
Well I think it's certainly possible that they did a less in-depth clean-up when they resumed their restoration. There have been reports of people noticing some more dirt and scratches slipping through on the 30th starting at around the late Frieza saga. Though even with the cleanup being slightly less meticulous, the "most time consuming of all the processes" (tape mark removal) was still continued and even improved upon for the episodes that the Levels covered.
That would explain the 2 mysteries. First, why the 30th’s first episode film damage was cropped when it was previously fixed for the Level Sets. Second, why in the heck they did heavy DVNR/Sharpening in the first place!!! Why smudge the image then sharpen it? I think it was to do a cheap, consistent clean-up on the image for the entire series. If they were working from a Level Set quality image in the first place, the heavy DVNR wouldn’t have been necessary to diminish the film grain, and give it a more modern look.
I just want to reiterate again that DNR isn't some magic thing that will just clean up every little defect in the image. It reduces/removes noise, which would be the grain. It's not meant for dirt, scratches, or tape marks, even though it can occasionally remove some dirt. And so this idea of "they didn't manually remove all the scratches and so they DNR'd it instead" doesn't really make sense to me. Now, there are automatic cleanup tools that can do these things, and they were used on the Orange Bricks......but they'll cause actual things in the animation to disappear, like this:
Neither the Season Blu-rays nor the 30th Anniversary have lines straight up disappearing like that. So this means that they didn't just use some automatic cleanup tool and call it a day. There had to have been some manual work similar to the Levels to make sure actual detail wasn't going away. And in order to lessen the manual workload, it's possible that they used an automatic filter on a low setting, which explains why people have noticed a few more scratches/dirt slipping through. But again, this sort of filter wouldn't really be affecting the grain because it's not DNR.

You also asked "Why smudge the image then sharpen it?". Well, that's unfortunately something I've seen done a lot. It often starts from a desire to sharpen it only. However, if you sharpen something with grain, then the grain also becomes sharp. So their solution is to remove the grain with DNR, then sharpen. And by the way, the "smudged" look you're talking about is probably not from the DNR, but rather from their hideous sharpener. If you've ever used DNR tools from even the late 2000s (well before any of these BD releases), you'll know that the grain can actually be removed with very minimal smearing or detail loss. Sure, some minimal smearing can happen if you're looking at it very closely, but not nearly to the extent that it happens on the latest DBZ releases.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by kyppk » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:28 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:59 pm I have seen the blog post and I've put together a little comparison to show the cropping differences:
https://slow.pics/c/pCg2dv4K
As you can see, whatever "damage" is present was cropped away on the Level Sets, not digitally fixed. But for some reason, the 30th is cropped well beyond what is necessary to hide that damage. And based on the images shown on the blog post, the blue strip thing seems consistent throughout the episode. So again, I think that when they rolled back to the cleanup step (in order to improve the tape mark removal), this undid the cropping which was on the Levels, which meant that they had to re-crop from scratch, and they just happened to do it very sloppily for episode 1 before improving.
To be fair, if they considered that darker corner in the bottom right to be damage and they wanted to keep the focus of the scene where it was traditionally and in a 4:3 ratio then you get the tight crop the 30th has for that scene, but the other scenes from the blog show images with pretty tight crops without those reasons.
I guess one could say that it's a consistent crop for the entire episode because of the "damage" in the one scene, and looking at the blog post images for the Saiyan Saga it might be, but who really knows in the end.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:37 pm

kyppk wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:28 pm To be fair, if they considered that darker corner in the bottom right to be damage and they wanted to keep the focus of the scene where it was traditionally and in a 4:3 ratio then you get the tight crop the 30th has for that scene, but the other scenes from the blog show images with pretty tight crops without those reasons.
Oh you mean the part that's a shadow? I guess it's possible that they mistook that as one of the film's corners. They really should be paying closer attention to what they're doing, but that is a plausible explanation.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:06 am

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:59 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:54 pm I am aware of the step by step process, and I understand what you are saying here.

Did you see the FUNimation blog post last year regarding the 30th? They showed their 16mm film scans for episode 1, and specifically damage in the lower right hand corner. It actually showed them cropping it tighter to remove the damaged corner. I tried to access that post the other day and couldn’t get to it, otherwise I would post a picture here.
I have seen the blog post and I've put together a little comparison to show the cropping differences:
https://slow.pics/c/pCg2dv4K
As you can see, whatever "damage" is present was cropped away on the Level Sets, not digitally fixed. But for some reason, the 30th is cropped well beyond what is necessary to hide that damage. And based on the images shown on the blog post, the blue strip thing seems consistent throughout the episode. So again, I think that when they rolled back to the cleanup step (in order to improve the tape mark removal), this undid the cropping which was on the Levels, which meant that they had to re-crop from scratch, and they just happened to do it very sloppily for episode 1 before improving.
So here’s a thought. What if there was another step. A step 1.5. This would have been a general cleanup for the entire series, removing the major flaws, especially the tape marks. Then step 2 was a second, more in depth cleanup, which became the Level Sets.

What I am proposing here, is that perhaps FUNimation went back to step 1.5 for the Season Sets and the 30th, and did their DVNR/sharpening for the entire series for the sake of consistency.
Well I think it's certainly possible that they did a less in-depth clean-up when they resumed their restoration. There have been reports of people noticing some more dirt and scratches slipping through on the 30th starting at around the late Frieza saga. Though even with the cleanup being slightly less meticulous, the "most time consuming of all the processes" (tape mark removal) was still continued and even improved upon for the episodes that the Levels covered.
That would explain the 2 mysteries. First, why the 30th’s first episode film damage was cropped when it was previously fixed for the Level Sets. Second, why in the heck they did heavy DVNR/Sharpening in the first place!!! Why smudge the image then sharpen it? I think it was to do a cheap, consistent clean-up on the image for the entire series. If they were working from a Level Set quality image in the first place, the heavy DVNR wouldn’t have been necessary to diminish the film grain, and give it a more modern look.
I just want to reiterate again that DNR isn't some magic thing that will just clean up every little defect in the image. It reduces/removes noise, which would be the grain. It's not meant for dirt, scratches, or tape marks, even though it can occasionally remove some dirt. And so this idea of "they didn't manually remove all the scratches and so they DNR'd it instead" doesn't really make sense to me. Now, there are automatic cleanup tools that can do these things, and they were used on the Orange Bricks......but they'll cause actual things in the animation to disappear, like this:
Neither the Season Blu-rays nor the 30th Anniversary have lines straight up disappearing like that. So this means that they didn't just use some automatic cleanup tool and call it a day. There had to have been some manual work similar to the Levels to make sure actual detail wasn't going away. And in order to lessen the manual workload, it's possible that they used an automatic filter on a low setting, which explains why people have noticed a few more scratches/dirt slipping through. But again, this sort of filter wouldn't really be affecting the grain because it's not DNR.

You also asked "Why smudge the image then sharpen it?". Well, that's unfortunately something I've seen done a lot. It often starts from a desire to sharpen it only. However, if you sharpen something with grain, then the grain also becomes sharp. So their solution is to remove the grain with DNR, then sharpen. And by the way, the "smudged" look you're talking about is probably not from the DNR, but rather from their hideous sharpener. If you've ever used DNR tools from even the late 2000s (well before any of these BD releases), you'll know that the grain can actually be removed with very minimal smearing or detail loss. Sure, some minimal smearing can happen if you're looking at it very closely, but not nearly to the extent that it happens on the latest DBZ releases.
Wow. Ok, your explanation sounds very reasonable. However, if this is accurate, then FUNimation was deceptive in their description.

I was able to get back into the blog post. My phone was trying to open it through the app so I had to bypass that. So here’s what they say about the video presentation:

“Regarding the image itself, there is some digital video noise reduction to clean up some of the noise, dust and grain from the original film materials, which we felt was mandatory for this release based on the different levels of fan support from various past DBZ releases with different levels of noise reduction over the years.”

What you’re saying Vance, is basically that yes they did these things and THEN used a “sharpener” (which was totally unnecessary) to alter the look of the image? One could say, to make an artistic change? Basically making the lines sharper to make it look cleaner, like newer animation? They forgot to mention that!!!

So I don’t think the sharpener is a deal-breaker, as I said before I am enjoying my Steelbooks. But what they have done to the image is a step down, especially in the background scenery. Look at the next to the last screen caps FUNi shared on the blog post. I guess is don’t know how to put the pics directly on here yet but it is the pic of Goku on the nimbus.

https://www.funimation.com/blog/2019/04 ... s-created/

The background is the mist, grass, and hills, with subtle color graduations. In the 30th, some of these subtleties are lost completely. And you are saying is that this is NOT because of the DNR, but some extra unnecessary BS....

FUNi is thinking the average viewer would see the film grain, and the softer image and... stop buying the sets. But, in reality, they are doing the “hard-core” fans and the show itself a great disservice... while the vast majority of fans, and the casual viewers they are so worried about offending, most likely DON’T GIVE A CRAP about those things. How ironic.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:35 pm

Jhanzie wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:06 am Wow. Ok, your explanation sounds very reasonable. However, if this is accurate, then FUNimation was deceptive in their description.

I was able to get back into the blog post. My phone was trying to open it through the app so I had to bypass that. So here’s what they say about the video presentation:

“Regarding the image itself, there is some digital video noise reduction to clean up some of the noise, dust and grain from the original film materials, which we felt was mandatory for this release based on the different levels of fan support from various past DBZ releases with different levels of noise reduction over the years.”
It's definitely a misleading statement on their blog. Because first they talk about cleaning up "noise" and "grain" with the DNR, but then they added a layer of fake grain at the end anyway which shows that they don't really have a problem with it. If that's the case, why would they get rid of it to begin with? So I again go back to what I was thinking earlier which is that they didn't want it to get in the way of their sharpener. So they de-grained, then sharpened, then added fake grain on top.
What you’re saying Vance, is basically that yes they did these things and THEN used a “sharpener” (which was totally unnecessary) to alter the look of the image? One could say, to make an artistic change? Basically making the lines sharper to make it look cleaner, like newer animation? They forgot to mention that!!!

So I don’t think the sharpener is a deal-breaker, as I said before I am enjoying my Steelbooks. But what they have done to the image is a step down, especially in the background scenery. Look at the next to the last screen caps FUNi shared on the blog post. I guess is don’t know how to put the pics directly on here yet but it is the pic of Goku on the nimbus.

https://www.funimation.com/blog/2019/04 ... s-created/

The background is the mist, grass, and hills, with subtle color graduations. In the 30th, some of these subtleties are lost completely. And you are saying is that this is NOT because of the DNR, but some extra unnecessary BS....
Yeah the sharpener is my biggest issue, rather than the DNR. Things that normally would have soft or subtle shifts become extremely hard edged. Maybe they wanted to make things look clean or new, but it really just seems to eat away at what little texture there was in the lines and it alters the actual artwork. Now of course, their film is a few generations removed from the original negative, so things are going to be softer than is ideal. But the way they went about sharpening just looks so artificial and unnatural to me.
FUNi is thinking the average viewer would see the film grain, and the softer image and... stop buying the sets. But, in reality, they are doing the “hard-core” fans and the show itself a great disservice... while the vast majority of fans, and the casual viewers they are so worried about offending, most likely DON’T GIVE A CRAP about those things. How ironic.
I agree, the vast majority of people wouldn't mind anything as long as it's affordable and they can watch the whole show. It's so obvious to everyone except them, and that's why this whole situation is frustrating. They could easily give us something that everyone is happy with, but they continue to delude themselves into thinking that they need to tamper with the footage in order for it to sell.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Scsigs » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:51 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:35 pm
It's definitely a misleading statement on their blog. Because first they talk about cleaning up "noise" and "grain" with the DNR, but then they added a layer of fake grain at the end anyway which shows that they don't really have a problem with it. If that's the case, why would they get rid of it to begin with? So I again go back to what I was thinking earlier which is that they didn't want it to get in the way of their sharpener. So they de-grained, then sharpened, then added fake grain on top.

Yeah the sharpener is my biggest issue, rather than the DNR. Things that normally would have soft or subtle shifts become extremely hard edged. Maybe they wanted to make things look clean or new, but it really just seems to eat away at what little texture there was in the lines and it alters the actual artwork. Now of course, their film is a few generations removed from the original negative, so things are going to be softer than is ideal. But the way they went about sharpening just looks so artificial and unnatural to me.


I agree, the vast majority of people wouldn't mind anything as long as it's affordable and they can watch the whole show. It's so obvious to everyone except them, and that's why this whole situation is frustrating. They could easily give us something that everyone is happy with, but they continue to delude themselves into thinking that they need to tamper with the footage in order for it to sell.
Can confirm that, after watching the first episode on the discs, it IS fake grain that's in there. The type that's artificially put in by programs like iMovie. How you can see this is that the particles are too small & they repeat until the episode ends. That's the result of an algorithm, not film. They overly-applied the DVNR, sharpened it, then tried to cover it up by adding fake grain over it because they knew it looked awful & knew people wanted grain, but didn't wanna redo it. Pretty sure they keep the film scans they did YEARS ago on hard drives there so they don't have to keep pulling their film stock out to rescan & can keep doing these shitty remasters. I'm 100% certain they would've used the earlier remaster if they'd saved 4:3 versions of the episodes rather than redoing it.

The sharpening is really bad, but they wouldn't feel the need to apply it as harshly as they do if they didn't heavily apply the DVNR tot he level they do. Honestly, they just go too far with everything, then have to over-correct it. If they just did the amount of clean-up necessary to take away film damage & make the show presentable, then do a mild grain reduction, then make sure there's no crushed blacks & they'd have really good masters. They overthink the stupidest things. If they took the leads from other film restoration projects, they'd actually be respectable in this regard. Like, it's understandable that they can't get 100% of the accuracy that Toei's 1st gen film stock would bring, but they don't do it well at all. The 1 release that did got cancelled 2 volumes in because they weren't making money from it because of their stupid milking of the franchise for the 4 years prior.

See, most people wouldn't mind buying a newly-restored release of something as long as they know they're getting quality. Like, a lot of shows that get restored in HD get super high-quality rereleases that cost more money than people would expect, then those get brought down in price over time & rereleased into more affordable sets. The advent of having a remastered release be affordable at launch is complete bullshit. Look at FUNi's own releases of remastered HD shows. Cowboy Bebop's release was the standard $40-$50 initially, same as Outlaw Star, etc. Hell, even shows they release that were created in HD that they're allowed by the Japanese companies to release on BR in North America, they overprice the shit out of to make money back for spending the money on the masters int he licensing deals. It's certainly not going to paying their actors better. It's going towards new products, paying other staff, & making money, as a business does. If FUNi hadn't lulled the DB fanbase into thinking that new releases of Z didn't cost more than $25 per set, then they'd be in a better position to rerelease the series with better masters because people's expectations would be right. As well as if they set more realistic goals for how much money they expect to make with them in a given amount of time, as well as give it a good break in between releases. I've never heard anyone in the DB fandom say, "I bought the orange bricks/season sets/30th anniversary set because they don't have grain!" Never have I heard anyone unironically say that. Literally, the only substantive justification I've heard for them is that they orange bricks had good audio options, the seasons BRs were slightly better than the OBs, & the 30th set had the show in 4:3. No other substantive arguments. FUNi relies on people being so fed up that they either don't buy any of the releases, or people settle for "good. enough," which is just awful.

Honestly, you're better off getting Kai. The only complaints I've heard about it is that people enjoyed some of the filler that expanded on some things, they enjoyed the Z dub more, they prefer the Yamamoto score, the redrawn scenes take them out of the moments, or it's too soft. At least it's a good faith attempt to bring Z into HD & has an English dub that isn't 2 decade old cringe at best. Like, it's amazing how much better Kai's dub has aged 10 years on compared to Z's 20 years on, honestly. Other than that, other than collector's value, I see no point in getting the Z releases if you're expecting good quality & can't do mental gymnastics to justify it. I'm in the camp of "Get these, wait 100 years for FUNi to finally give us good remasters of the episodes, then finally die knowing those are coming out" personally, so I'll let you decide.
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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Trachta10 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:35 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:06 am Wow. Ok, your explanation sounds very reasonable. However, if this is accurate, then FUNimation was deceptive in their description.

I was able to get back into the blog post. My phone was trying to open it through the app so I had to bypass that. So here’s what they say about the video presentation:

“Regarding the image itself, there is some digital video noise reduction to clean up some of the noise, dust and grain from the original film materials, which we felt was mandatory for this release based on the different levels of fan support from various past DBZ releases with different levels of noise reduction over the years.”
It's definitely a misleading statement on their blog. Because first they talk about cleaning up "noise" and "grain" with the DNR, but then they added a layer of fake grain at the end anyway which shows that they don't really have a problem with it. If that's the case, why would they get rid of it to begin with? So I again go back to what I was thinking earlier which is that they didn't want it to get in the way of their sharpener. So they de-grained, then sharpened, then added fake grain on top.
What you’re saying Vance, is basically that yes they did these things and THEN used a “sharpener” (which was totally unnecessary) to alter the look of the image? One could say, to make an artistic change? Basically making the lines sharper to make it look cleaner, like newer animation? They forgot to mention that!!!

So I don’t think the sharpener is a deal-breaker, as I said before I am enjoying my Steelbooks. But what they have done to the image is a step down, especially in the background scenery. Look at the next to the last screen caps FUNi shared on the blog post. I guess is don’t know how to put the pics directly on here yet but it is the pic of Goku on the nimbus.

https://www.funimation.com/blog/2019/04 ... s-created/

The background is the mist, grass, and hills, with subtle color graduations. In the 30th, some of these subtleties are lost completely. And you are saying is that this is NOT because of the DNR, but some extra unnecessary BS....
Yeah the sharpener is my biggest issue, rather than the DNR. Things that normally would have soft or subtle shifts become extremely hard edged. Maybe they wanted to make things look clean or new, but it really just seems to eat away at what little texture there was in the lines and it alters the actual artwork. Now of course, their film is a few generations removed from the original negative, so things are going to be softer than is ideal. But the way they went about sharpening just looks so artificial and unnatural to me.
FUNi is thinking the average viewer would see the film grain, and the softer image and... stop buying the sets. But, in reality, they are doing the “hard-core” fans and the show itself a great disservice... while the vast majority of fans, and the casual viewers they are so worried about offending, most likely DON’T GIVE A CRAP about those things. How ironic.
I agree, the vast majority of people wouldn't mind anything as long as it's affordable and they can watch the whole show. It's so obvious to everyone except them, and that's why this whole situation is frustrating. They could easily give us something that everyone is happy with, but they continue to delude themselves into thinking that they need to tamper with the footage in order for it to sell.
I have a question, shouldn't the raw footage be a RAW file? not a JPG
because I think you can remove noise better in RAW files
https://www.dxo.com/dxo-photolab/deepprime/
and is better for dark or very bright details

Image

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:01 pm

Trachta10 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 pm I have a question, shouldn't the raw footage be a RAW file? not a JPG
because I think you can remove noise better in RAW files
https://www.dxo.com/dxo-photolab/deepprime/
and is better for dark or very bright details
Yeah but who is using jpegs? The images on their blog (which aren't even jpegs) aren't the actual format of their raws...

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Trachta10 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:28 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:01 pm
Trachta10 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 pm I have a question, shouldn't the raw footage be a RAW file? not a JPG
because I think you can remove noise better in RAW files
https://www.dxo.com/dxo-photolab/deepprime/
and is better for dark or very bright details
Yeah but who is using jpegs? The images on their blog (which aren't even jpegs) aren't the actual format of their raws...
and why they didn't upload it in RAW format?
maybe they don't work with that format
and maybe that's why even the level sets have crushed blacks

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Ajay » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:07 am

Trachta10 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:28 pm
VanceRefrigeration wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:01 pm
Trachta10 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 pm I have a question, shouldn't the raw footage be a RAW file? not a JPG
because I think you can remove noise better in RAW files
https://www.dxo.com/dxo-photolab/deepprime/
and is better for dark or very bright details
Yeah but who is using jpegs? The images on their blog (which aren't even jpegs) aren't the actual format of their raws...
and why they didn't upload it in RAW format?
maybe they don't work with that format
and maybe that's why even the level sets have crushed blacks
Because that's not how images for web work...??? "Raw" isn't a format. Some PNGs are perfectly fine for showcasing shots accurately enough.

Black levels don't even come into play here.
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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Trachta10 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:58 am

Ajay wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:07 am
Trachta10 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:28 pm
VanceRefrigeration wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:01 pm
Yeah but who is using jpegs? The images on their blog (which aren't even jpegs) aren't the actual format of their raws...
and why they didn't upload it in RAW format?
maybe they don't work with that format
and maybe that's why even the level sets have crushed blacks
Because that's not how images for web work...??? "Raw" isn't a format. Some PNGs are perfectly fine for showcasing shots accurately enough.

Black levels don't even come into play here.
From what I understand, many photographers take pictures in JPEG format because the difference with a RAW file is almost undetectable (same with a image scanner), but the truth is there is a vast difference in the amount of information retained in a RAW file compared to a JPEG, so if you just shot in JPEG, which is a “loss” file format, much of the initial image information and detail is discarded and cannot be recovered.

You can just shot in JPEG, or shot in RAW, edit it, and then convert it to a JPEG, is not the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format
https://www.slrlounge.com/workshop/dyna ... w-vs-jpeg/

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Ajay » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:28 pm

Trachta10 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:58 amFrom what I understand, many photographers take pictures in JPEG format because the difference with a RAW file is almost undetectable (same with a image scanner), but the truth is there is a vast difference in the amount of information retained in a RAW file compared to a JPEG, so if you just shot in JPEG, which is a “loss” file format, much of the initial image information and detail is discarded and cannot be recovered.

You can just shot in JPEG, or shot in RAW, edit it, and then convert it to a JPEG, is not the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format
https://www.slrlounge.com/workshop/dyna ... w-vs-jpeg/
Dude, I know what raw photography is. I'm saying that Funi using PNGs on their website has absolutely zero indication of what they do and don't have. It's just standard practise to use compressed images online. The company were never going to upload anything but that because browsers don't support it. Of course their raw scans will be in adequately lossless formats. To suggest they didn't scan their reels in an adequate format, let alone JPG, is one of the weirdest posts in this thread so far, especially trying to attribute the Level Sets' black levels to it. Like... what? That's not how any of this works.
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