Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

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supersaiyanZero
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:20 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:07 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:26 am
HeroR wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:15 pm


Those times were far between, especially compared to the amount of times where he was very immature and acted like OG Kid Goku. But for some reason, no one really remembers these moments.
Considering I just rewatched GT about two months ago, its pretty fresh in my mind. Those immature moments you're talking about were rare. Yes there were times he acted goofy or dumb, but not nearly to the level or constant frequency that DBS did.
Goku even in Super didn't act constantly immature. In fact, I can named every moment in Dragon Ball Super were Goku acted off and it's nowhere near the amount that people keep pushing.

In comparison, there was never a moment in Super that matched Goku not realizing that he was kidnapped, not recognizing his own granddaughter despite the fact that he should have realized who she was based on her ki, having problems during a three count attack which never made sense, and that entire stitch he had in Hell.
Are we watching the same show? Maybe the issue isn't the frequency, but the severity of low hanging fruit stupidity that Goku often displays in Super and the fact that for some reason he's got a lower IQ ceiling, not just mentally but also emotionally. Trash.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:04 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:20 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:07 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:26 am


Considering I just rewatched GT about two months ago, its pretty fresh in my mind. Those immature moments you're talking about were rare. Yes there were times he acted goofy or dumb, but not nearly to the level or constant frequency that DBS did.
Goku even in Super didn't act constantly immature. In fact, I can named every moment in Dragon Ball Super were Goku acted off and it's nowhere near the amount that people keep pushing.

In comparison, there was never a moment in Super that matched Goku not realizing that he was kidnapped, not recognizing his own granddaughter despite the fact that he should have realized who she was based on her ki, having problems during a three count attack which never made sense, and that entire stitch he had in Hell.
Are we watching the same show? Maybe the issue isn't the frequency, but the severity of low hanging fruit stupidity that Goku often displays in Super and the fact that for some reason he's got a lower IQ ceiling, not just mentally but also emotionally. Trash.
A lot of the ‘low IQ’ moments isn’t even Goku being stupid. It’s more Goku not given a damn or people thinking he should be more serious. Which isn’t low IQ, it’s Goku not given a damn.

And it’s even the severity since people got triggered over Goku getting motion sickness.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Rakurai » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:28 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:04 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:20 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:07 pm


Goku even in Super didn't act constantly immature. In fact, I can named every moment in Dragon Ball Super were Goku acted off and it's nowhere near the amount that people keep pushing.

In comparison, there was never a moment in Super that matched Goku not realizing that he was kidnapped, not recognizing his own granddaughter despite the fact that he should have realized who she was based on her ki, having problems during a three count attack which never made sense, and that entire stitch he had in Hell.
Are we watching the same show? Maybe the issue isn't the frequency, but the severity of low hanging fruit stupidity that Goku often displays in Super and the fact that for some reason he's got a lower IQ ceiling, not just mentally but also emotionally. Trash.
A lot of the ‘low IQ’ moments isn’t even Goku being stupid. It’s more Goku not given a damn or people thinking he should be more serious. Which isn’t low IQ, it’s Goku not given a damn.

And it’s even the severity since people got triggered over Goku getting motion sickness.
Goku not realizing Beerus in a Monaka suit is far worse than not recognizing his granddaughter whom he hasn't seen or felt in about 10 years.
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:08 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:28 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:04 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:20 pm


Are we watching the same show? Maybe the issue isn't the frequency, but the severity of low hanging fruit stupidity that Goku often displays in Super and the fact that for some reason he's got a lower IQ ceiling, not just mentally but also emotionally. Trash.
A lot of the ‘low IQ’ moments isn’t even Goku being stupid. It’s more Goku not given a damn or people thinking he should be more serious. Which isn’t low IQ, it’s Goku not given a damn.

And it’s even the severity since people got triggered over Goku getting motion sickness.
Goku not realizing Beerus in a Monaka suit is far worse than not recognizing his granddaughter whom he hasn't seen or felt in about 10 years.
And why hasn’t he seen his own grandchild in ten years when he can literally teleport and was on the same planet? Especially when Goku said at EOZ that he would visit Pan after she cried about him leaving. That and why Pan never visited him, she can sense Ki. There is no logical reason why Goku went ten years without seeing his grandchild when he literally promised to visit and Goku is strict about keeping his promise. This honestly makes Goku look more of an asshole than even Super Goku.


As for Monaka, you’re using an episode that purposely made Goku dim because everything was played for laughs and was never meant to be taken seriously. It’s like me using the driving episode in Dragon Ball Z where Goku didn’t know where the gas paddle was to show how dumb Goku is when he was able to operate a motorcycle in the first episode of Dragon Ball.

Also, GT is five years after EOZ.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Deity » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:19 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:10 pm
Deity wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:54 am
This is a great topic. As a person who finds the best thing about dragon ball to be the characters / story (and not so much the fighting / transformations), this really pushes my buttons. And it's not just Goku: Chi-chi all of a sudden wants Goten to study and not fight? Since when is kid Trunks dumb? Wasn't Ten Shin Han a crazy skillful and knowledgeable martial artist (same can be said for Piccolo)? :crazy:

One thing that has always irritated me in Super is how easily Goku can lie. He has always lived his life according to the teachings of his grandfather. I guess he learned to lie when he got himself a girl :lol: still, I'm surprised he can still ride the kinto un given how much he lies now.

I really loved the character development and character interactions in dragon ball. Dragon ball super unfortunately didn't care much about this aspect of the series. I still think that the show did well in bringing in aspects of the early series (kaioken, mafuba, yajirobe), but they dropped the ball in terms of continuity, more specifically with character traits and their development.
When did he lie? the only time I can think of is Goku telling everyone that the TOP has prized money and he only did that because Beerus and Gohan told him to lie. And he was terrible at it too. That and I don't remember Goku saying Grandpa Gohan told me to never lie.

Also, Chichi wanted Goten to study because he's actually in school and not home school. I mean he's in an actual public school going by Goten having the day off on Sunday.

Not sure when Kid Trunks was dumb outside having problems with math.
If I recall correctly, he lied even after he was called out for lying. I don't have all episodes seared into my memory but I remember thinking that Goku is lying too much for a person who used to say lying is bad. Even Kuririn was not able to ride the kinto un just because he liked girls, it seems to me you have to be really pure hearted to do it. And now he is lying just to get people to do what he wants, seems really weird to me. Just because you can't say something, does not mean you have to lie, and that's how goku acted in dragon ball, because he really hated lying (and anything wrong as taught by grandpa Gohan)

So, was Goten not in school before Majin buu appeared? She's not just getting a kid to study what he needs to study, she acts like she did with Gohan, forbidding the kid to train and fight, and excessively pushing studies onto him, enough to make me think it is more than normal, like it was with Gohan. Attending school vs being home schooled in my opinion would mean that you actually have to spend less time studying at home... But yeah, maybe you see it differently...

The kid who at eight years old was explaining Goten what biotechnology is (non Canon), now cannot do simple primary school Math ? (I don't remember what in super made me think that they are not really following what was depicted before for the character) Trunks was always portrayed as a smart kid, even in GT. It felt really out of character.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:00 am

Deity wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:19 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:10 pm
Deity wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:54 am
This is a great topic. As a person who finds the best thing about dragon ball to be the characters / story (and not so much the fighting / transformations), this really pushes my buttons. And it's not just Goku: Chi-chi all of a sudden wants Goten to study and not fight? Since when is kid Trunks dumb? Wasn't Ten Shin Han a crazy skillful and knowledgeable martial artist (same can be said for Piccolo)? :crazy:

One thing that has always irritated me in Super is how easily Goku can lie. He has always lived his life according to the teachings of his grandfather. I guess he learned to lie when he got himself a girl :lol: still, I'm surprised he can still ride the kinto un given how much he lies now.

I really loved the character development and character interactions in dragon ball. Dragon ball super unfortunately didn't care much about this aspect of the series. I still think that the show did well in bringing in aspects of the early series (kaioken, mafuba, yajirobe), but they dropped the ball in terms of continuity, more specifically with character traits and their development.
When did he lie? the only time I can think of is Goku telling everyone that the TOP has prized money and he only did that because Beerus and Gohan told him to lie. And he was terrible at it too. That and I don't remember Goku saying Grandpa Gohan told me to never lie.

Also, Chichi wanted Goten to study because he's actually in school and not home school. I mean he's in an actual public school going by Goten having the day off on Sunday.

Not sure when Kid Trunks was dumb outside having problems with math.
If I recall correctly, he lied even after he was called out for lying. I don't have all episodes seared into my memory but I remember thinking that Goku is lying too much for a person who used to say lying is bad. Even Kuririn was not able to ride the kinto un just because he liked girls, it seems to me you have to be really pure hearted to do it. And now he is lying just to get people to do what he wants, seems really weird to me. Just because you can't say something, does not mean you have to lie, and that's how goku acted in dragon ball, because he really hated lying (and anything wrong as taught by grandpa Gohan)

So, was Goten not in school before Majin buu appeared? She's not just getting a kid to study what he needs to study, she acts like she did with Gohan, forbidding the kid to train and fight, and excessively pushing studies onto him, enough to make me think it is more than normal, like it was with Gohan. Attending school vs being home schooled in my opinion would mean that you actually have to spend less time studying at home... But yeah, maybe you see it differently...

The kid who at eight years old was explaining Goten what biotechnology is (non Canon), now cannot do simple primary school Math ? (I don't remember what in super made me think that they are not really following what was depicted before for the character) Trunks was always portrayed as a smart kid, even in GT. It felt really out of character.

Actually, he didn't. This is the entire scene here:https://youtu.be/0etRcwqAJ48?t=11

Unless you mean another scene that I'm missing. Also, Krillin couldn't ride Nimbus because he was nasty kid who actually stole, cheated, and demeaned Goku. It wasn't about him liking girls too much.

And again, he only lied because Beerus and Gohan told him to lie. When he was left to his own devices, he was frank about what the TOP was. Here is the entire scene with Gohan: https://youtu.be/yrdVZfC1b7k?t=74. He was also frank with Piccolo: https://youtu.be/eClynJEISKQ?t=26. He was also going to be frank with Vegeta, until Vegeta cut him off: https://youtu.be/xngCbv0Kw2w?t=92

Also, I don't remember Goku ever saying Grandpa Gohan told him not to lie or that lying is bad in general outside of breaking your promise. In fact, he never said anything about lying, he's just bad at it because he's brutally honest.

You can be smart and have problems in math. Yeah know the cliche is if you're smart you're a math genius, but that isn't really true in real life. I know plenty of smart people who would have problems with the math problem shown to Trunks. That and Trunks in GT is in his twenties, so that's a weird comparisons to Trunks in Super whose around 13. And I have no idea when Trunks explained biotechnology to Goten. Can you give me a reference?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Deity » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:58 am

HeroR wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:00 am
Deity wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:19 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:10 pm


When did he lie? the only time I can think of is Goku telling everyone that the TOP has prized money and he only did that because Beerus and Gohan told him to lie. And he was terrible at it too. That and I don't remember Goku saying Grandpa Gohan told me to never lie.

Also, Chichi wanted Goten to study because he's actually in school and not home school. I mean he's in an actual public school going by Goten having the day off on Sunday.

Not sure when Kid Trunks was dumb outside having problems with math.
If I recall correctly, he lied even after he was called out for lying. I don't have all episodes seared into my memory but I remember thinking that Goku is lying too much for a person who used to say lying is bad. Even Kuririn was not able to ride the kinto un just because he liked girls, it seems to me you have to be really pure hearted to do it. And now he is lying just to get people to do what he wants, seems really weird to me. Just because you can't say something, does not mean you have to lie, and that's how goku acted in dragon ball, because he really hated lying (and anything wrong as taught by grandpa Gohan)

So, was Goten not in school before Majin buu appeared? She's not just getting a kid to study what he needs to study, she acts like she did with Gohan, forbidding the kid to train and fight, and excessively pushing studies onto him, enough to make me think it is more than normal, like it was with Gohan. Attending school vs being home schooled in my opinion would mean that you actually have to spend less time studying at home... But yeah, maybe you see it differently...

The kid who at eight years old was explaining Goten what biotechnology is (non Canon), now cannot do simple primary school Math ? (I don't remember what in super made me think that they are not really following what was depicted before for the character) Trunks was always portrayed as a smart kid, even in GT. It felt really out of character.

Actually, he didn't. This is the entire scene here:https://youtu.be/0etRcwqAJ48?t=11

Unless you mean another scene that I'm missing. Also, Krillin couldn't ride Nimbus because he was nasty kid who actually stole, cheated, and demeaned Goku. It wasn't about him liking girls too much.

And again, he only lied because Beerus and Gohan told him to lie. When he was left to his own devices, he was frank about what the TOP was. Here is the entire scene with Gohan: https://youtu.be/yrdVZfC1b7k?t=74. He was also frank with Piccolo: https://youtu.be/eClynJEISKQ?t=26. He was also going to be frank with Vegeta, until Vegeta cut him off: https://youtu.be/xngCbv0Kw2w?t=92

Also, I don't remember Goku ever saying Grandpa Gohan told him not to lie or that lying is bad in general outside of breaking your promise. In fact, he never said anything about lying, he's just bad at it because he's brutally honest.

You can be smart and have problems in math. Yeah know the cliche is if you're smart you're a math genius, but that isn't really true in real life. I know plenty of smart people who would have problems with the math problem shown to Trunks. That and Trunks in GT is in his twenties, so that's a weird comparisons to Trunks in Super whose around 13. And I have no idea when Trunks explained biotechnology to Goten. Can you give me a reference?
Indeed krillin was a nasty little boy :D as for the rest, let's just agree to disagree, when I watch the show again I'll take your points into consideration.

Trunks explained biotechnology to Goten in movie 11. He managed to say it was applied genetic engineering, but when asked what applied genetic engineering is he said... Biotechnology. Fun moment, but still pretty smart kid. My point was that he was always portrayed as a smart person even in GT, to me it felt out of character to show him in a not so smart moment, and not so much compare an adult with a kid. Of course in real life people can be smart without being good in math. In dragon ball, people can be smart and then act pretty dumb. Bulma is portrayed as smart as is able to make complex math calculations of course, but still acts pretty dumb plenty of times. That Trunks moment felt to me really out of character for a character who was always portrayed as smart. I see you disagree with it, fine :thumbup:

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:15 am

The movies and DBS anime outlines were written by the same guy who wrote the manga, so at the very least "Goku blunders into starting a tournament that will doom all existence," "Goku brings back Freeza AGAIN and is fine with him wreaking havoc in the galaxy" and "Goku frolics in the snow like an ickle baby" all came from the same pen that gave us his sacrifice to save the world from an exploding Cell.

There's plenty of poison and recklessness in DB manga Goku's actions- threatening the Supreme Kai to fight Vegeta is a shocking one that I don't think Toei's writers would have ever come up with. If we're going by his general childishness, I think it could be a consequence of the change in focus. Goku seemed more mature in the Cell and Buu sagas because Toriyama was setting up a passing of the torch storyline. When that didn't work out, Goku went back to his old challenge-seeker personality.

For what it's worth, I think the only time the Super anime really overdid the goofiness was in the stuff with Monaka, and his first encounter with Zamasu. And at the very least, Toriyama would have had a hand in the former, since Goku falling for that was probably in the tournament arc outline. They tightened him up a bit in the Universe Survival arc; I wouldn't say there was anything in that which felt out of character. If anything, they arguably softened him up by re-emphasising his desire to see Gohan succeed, and his whole friendship monologue in the final battle against Jiren.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Rakurai » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:22 am

HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:08 pm

And why hasn’t he seen his own grandchild in ten years when he can literally teleport and was on the same planet? Especially when Goku said at EOZ that he would visit Pan after she cried about him leaving. That and why Pan never visited him, she can sense Ki. There is no logical reason why Goku went ten years without seeing his grandchild when he literally promised to visit and Goku is strict about keeping his promise. This honestly makes Goku look more of an asshole than even Super Goku.


As for Monaka, you’re using an episode that purposely made Goku dim because everything was played for laughs and was never meant to be taken seriously. It’s like me using the driving episode in Dragon Ball Z where Goku didn’t know where the gas paddle was to show how dumb Goku is when he was able to operate a motorcycle in the first episode of Dragon Ball.

Also, GT is five years after EOZ.
Not my point. I was only pointing out Goku's lack of brains or recognition of people, not his asshole attitude.

We're talking about the same Goku who didn't visit Bulma for 5 years even though he could literally do the same. Goku's training >>>>> family. GT followed immediately after EoZ aired, so of course the writers would make him do such a thing to keep him IC. That part is Z era Toriyama level of writing.

There is no "purposely dim" attempt implied anywhere. DBS Goku in that episode acts exactly the way we would expect DBS Goku to act. I will never try to defend GT Goku losing a kid's tournament by being tickled out of the ring cause it's inconceivable, but even then Vegeta admits it's stupid so there you have it. Also it's laughable to think that motorcycles = cars, this is coming from someone who rides motorcycles.
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:07 pm

Deity wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:58 am
HeroR wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:00 am
Deity wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:19 pm


If I recall correctly, he lied even after he was called out for lying. I don't have all episodes seared into my memory but I remember thinking that Goku is lying too much for a person who used to say lying is bad. Even Kuririn was not able to ride the kinto un just because he liked girls, it seems to me you have to be really pure hearted to do it. And now he is lying just to get people to do what he wants, seems really weird to me. Just because you can't say something, does not mean you have to lie, and that's how goku acted in dragon ball, because he really hated lying (and anything wrong as taught by grandpa Gohan)

So, was Goten not in school before Majin buu appeared? She's not just getting a kid to study what he needs to study, she acts like she did with Gohan, forbidding the kid to train and fight, and excessively pushing studies onto him, enough to make me think it is more than normal, like it was with Gohan. Attending school vs being home schooled in my opinion would mean that you actually have to spend less time studying at home... But yeah, maybe you see it differently...

The kid who at eight years old was explaining Goten what biotechnology is (non Canon), now cannot do simple primary school Math ? (I don't remember what in super made me think that they are not really following what was depicted before for the character) Trunks was always portrayed as a smart kid, even in GT. It felt really out of character.

Actually, he didn't. This is the entire scene here:https://youtu.be/0etRcwqAJ48?t=11

Unless you mean another scene that I'm missing. Also, Krillin couldn't ride Nimbus because he was nasty kid who actually stole, cheated, and demeaned Goku. It wasn't about him liking girls too much.

And again, he only lied because Beerus and Gohan told him to lie. When he was left to his own devices, he was frank about what the TOP was. Here is the entire scene with Gohan: https://youtu.be/yrdVZfC1b7k?t=74. He was also frank with Piccolo: https://youtu.be/eClynJEISKQ?t=26. He was also going to be frank with Vegeta, until Vegeta cut him off: https://youtu.be/xngCbv0Kw2w?t=92

Also, I don't remember Goku ever saying Grandpa Gohan told him not to lie or that lying is bad in general outside of breaking your promise. In fact, he never said anything about lying, he's just bad at it because he's brutally honest.

You can be smart and have problems in math. Yeah know the cliche is if you're smart you're a math genius, but that isn't really true in real life. I know plenty of smart people who would have problems with the math problem shown to Trunks. That and Trunks in GT is in his twenties, so that's a weird comparisons to Trunks in Super whose around 13. And I have no idea when Trunks explained biotechnology to Goten. Can you give me a reference?
Indeed krillin was a nasty little boy :D as for the rest, let's just agree to disagree, when I watch the show again I'll take your points into consideration.

Trunks explained biotechnology to Goten in movie 11. He managed to say it was applied genetic engineering, but when asked what applied genetic engineering is he said... Biotechnology. Fun moment, but still pretty smart kid. My point was that he was always portrayed as a smart person even in GT, to me it felt out of character to show him in a not so smart moment, and not so much compare an adult with a kid. Of course in real life people can be smart without being good in math. In dragon ball, people can be smart and then act pretty dumb. Bulma is portrayed as smart as is able to make complex math calculations of course, but still acts pretty dumb plenty of times. That Trunks moment felt to me really out of character for a character who was always portrayed as smart. I see you disagree with it, fine :thumbup:
But as you noted, it's a movie that doesn't even fit in the main timeline. Trunks in the original manga has no such feat.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:15 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:22 am
HeroR wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:08 pm

And why hasn’t he seen his own grandchild in ten years when he can literally teleport and was on the same planet? Especially when Goku said at EOZ that he would visit Pan after she cried about him leaving. That and why Pan never visited him, she can sense Ki. There is no logical reason why Goku went ten years without seeing his grandchild when he literally promised to visit and Goku is strict about keeping his promise. This honestly makes Goku look more of an asshole than even Super Goku.


As for Monaka, you’re using an episode that purposely made Goku dim because everything was played for laughs and was never meant to be taken seriously. It’s like me using the driving episode in Dragon Ball Z where Goku didn’t know where the gas paddle was to show how dumb Goku is when he was able to operate a motorcycle in the first episode of Dragon Ball.

Also, GT is five years after EOZ.
Not my point. I was only pointing out Goku's lack of brains or recognition of people, not his asshole attitude.

We're talking about the same Goku who didn't visit Bulma for 5 years even though he could literally do the same. Goku's training >>>>> family. GT followed immediately after EoZ aired, so of course the writers would make him do such a thing to keep him IC. That part is Z era Toriyama level of writing.

There is no "purposely dim" attempt implied anywhere. DBS Goku in that episode acts exactly the way we would expect DBS Goku to act. I will never try to defend GT Goku losing a kid's tournament by being tickled out of the ring cause it's inconceivable, but even then Vegeta admits it's stupid so there you have it. Also it's laughable to think that motorcycles = cars, this is coming from someone who rides motorcycles.
Except again, it makes no sense for Goku not to see his grandchild in those and forget what her ki feels like. There is also a major different not seeing your friends in five years, and not seeing your family which Goku actually promised to visit. No such promised was ever made to his friends. It doesn't even match Toriyama's writing since Toriyama has Goku visited his family in Neko Majin. So even if you say Goku puts training above family, he also puts his promises above all else, which is how he even got married.

Except in no other episode of Super did Goku act that dim. And the reason why I pointed out the oddity in the driving episode is because Goku showed in the first episode of Dragon Ball to be a fast learner, while Goku in the driving episode actually forgot where the gas paddle was after being told once before by the driving teacher. That is a level of dim that Goku that is inconstant with Goku's character.

Honestly, while Goku losing in the tournament in GT was dumb, it never bothered me since that entire episode was basically a gag and was not meant to be taken seriously. That and everyone in that episode was OOC to the point of lunacy.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:30 pm

Goku put family >> training in the transition between DB and DBZ, he actually says he doesn't train Gohan because Chichi gets mad over it. He never visited his master and kohais in half a decade due to spending time with his family.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Rakurai » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 am

HeroR wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:15 pm

Except again, it makes no sense for Goku not to see his grandchild in those and forget what her ki feels like. There is also a major different not seeing your friends in five years, and not seeing your family which Goku actually promised to visit. No such promised was ever made to his friends. It doesn't even match Toriyama's writing since Toriyama has Goku visited his family in Neko Majin. So even if you say Goku puts training above family, he also puts his promises above all else, which is how he even got married.

Except in no other episode of Super did Goku act that dim. And the reason why I pointed out the oddity in the driving episode is because Goku showed in the first episode of Dragon Ball to be a fast learner, while Goku in the driving episode actually forgot where the gas paddle was after being told once before by the driving teacher. That is a level of dim that Goku that is inconstant with Goku's character.

Honestly, while Goku losing in the tournament in GT was dumb, it never bothered me since that entire episode was basically a gag and was not meant to be taken seriously. That and everyone in that episode was OOC to the point of lunacy.
That chapter of Neko Majin Z was literally written 10 years after the original manga ended. That's not Z era Toriyama writing, which I meant as the period when the DB manga was still being published and the Z anime airing, and we know that Toriyama's perception of Goku changes over time as he tends to forget stuff he did with his own manga. GT's narrative of Goku not seeing Pan in 5 years is in line with EoZ Goku's portrayal and obsession with training. Goku is well-known to be a training freak, not a promise keeper, as it was only when Chi-Chi reminded him of it.
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:30 pm
Goku put family >> training in the transition between DB and DBZ, he actually says he doesn't train Gohan because Chichi gets mad over it. He never visited his master and kohais in half a decade due to spending time with his family.
He would rather stay dead and meet the martial artists of the older generation than stay with his family in the World of the Living after Cell. People can and do change.
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Rakurai wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 am
He would rather stay dead and meet the martial artists of the older generation than stay with his family in the World of the Living after Cell. People can and do change.
Guys, it’s Goku. I’m talking to you from the other world, please listen for a bit. Bulma kind of said it, but I attract bad guys… If you think about it, it really is true I guess. I think that without me, there’d be peace on Earth. Kaiō also noticed this. I didn’t really think I’d become a sacrifice. Since I’ve saved the Earth and stuff, I’ll get special treatment. Ordinary people and bad guys like Cell become just souls. I get to keep my body! And since I’m dead, I won’t age! Here in the other world, there are experts from the past, it should be very fun. Though Kaiō would’ve been returned to life by Shenlong just now, he stopped so he’ll keep me company. And so. I thought of how it would be bad for Chi-Chi and Gohan, but I figured it’d be okay. Gohan is already more together of a person than me.”

from the manga guide. think it's clear that he's choosing to stay dead in order to keep peace.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Rakurai » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:36 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am
Rakurai wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 am
He would rather stay dead and meet the martial artists of the older generation than stay with his family in the World of the Living after Cell. People can and do change.
Guys, it’s Goku. I’m talking to you from the other world, please listen for a bit. Bulma kind of said it, but I attract bad guys… If you think about it, it really is true I guess. I think that without me, there’d be peace on Earth. Kaiō also noticed this. I didn’t really think I’d become a sacrifice. Since I’ve saved the Earth and stuff, I’ll get special treatment. Ordinary people and bad guys like Cell become just souls. I get to keep my body! And since I’m dead, I won’t age! Here in the other world, there are experts from the past, it should be very fun. Though Kaiō would’ve been returned to life by Shenlong just now, he stopped so he’ll keep me company. And so. I thought of how it would be bad for Chi-Chi and Gohan, but I figured it’d be okay. Gohan is already more together of a person than me.”

from the manga guide. think it's clear that he's choosing to stay dead in order to keep peace.
An appeal to probability isn't an excuse to be away from one's responsibilities. Furthermore, when you think about it... all the bad guys that Goku's attracted would have ended up bringing about ruin and destruction had Goku not been there.

Vegeta and Nappa - would've destroyed the Earth had Goku not been there.

Freeza - same as above.

Androids - well we saw FTrunks' timeline.
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:03 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:36 pm
An appeal to probability isn't an excuse to be away from one's responsibilities. Furthermore, when you think about it... all the bad guys that Goku's attracted would have ended up bringing about ruin and destruction had Goku not been there.

Vegeta and Nappa - would've destroyed the Earth had Goku not been there.

Freeza - same as above.

Androids - well we saw FTrunks' timeline.
wait huh ? the artificial humans were created in order to kill goku, if goku didn't destroy the red ribbon army, they wouldn't have existed. the whole reason raditz came to earth was to find goku, and if goku wasn't there, raditz would have no reason to come there, which would mean nappa and vegeta would never come to earth. no vegeta coming to earth means that freeza never finds out about the dragon balls and it's unlikely he comes to earth or even goes to namek.

i don't agree with goku's logic to stay dead and have always found it kinda dumb, but i can see what toriyama was going for with goku saying that.
Last edited by Soppa Saia People on Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:21 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:36 pm
Soppa Saia People wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am
Rakurai wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 am
He would rather stay dead and meet the martial artists of the older generation than stay with his family in the World of the Living after Cell. People can and do change.
Guys, it’s Goku. I’m talking to you from the other world, please listen for a bit. Bulma kind of said it, but I attract bad guys… If you think about it, it really is true I guess. I think that without me, there’d be peace on Earth. Kaiō also noticed this. I didn’t really think I’d become a sacrifice. Since I’ve saved the Earth and stuff, I’ll get special treatment. Ordinary people and bad guys like Cell become just souls. I get to keep my body! And since I’m dead, I won’t age! Here in the other world, there are experts from the past, it should be very fun. Though Kaiō would’ve been returned to life by Shenlong just now, he stopped so he’ll keep me company. And so. I thought of how it would be bad for Chi-Chi and Gohan, but I figured it’d be okay. Gohan is already more together of a person than me.”

from the manga guide. think it's clear that he's choosing to stay dead in order to keep peace.
An appeal to probability isn't an excuse to be away from one's responsibilities. Furthermore, when you think about it... all the bad guys that Goku's attracted would have ended up bringing about ruin and destruction had Goku not been there.

Vegeta and Nappa - would've destroyed the Earth had Goku not been there.

Freeza - same as above.

Androids - well we saw FTrunks' timeline.
And having perks to being dead doesn't mean they are the reason why he is staying dead, specially if the reason was already stated. We can argue all day long but Goku himself stated that he better lay off of Earth, besides he was dead, end of the line for the second time, better not keep pushing the natural ways of the universe, again. It's not like he is choosing to stay in Namekusei or take naps in some far away planet. The man can't even die that he still gets called out on his responsabilities?

Yes, Goku solved the Freeza problem but probably none of the above would've happened if he was never sent to Earth but that's for Masako to unravel.

Anyway, he can feel (based on his own experience or told by others) as guilty as he wants about his involvement in the recent crisis.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:31 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 am
HeroR wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:15 pm

Except again, it makes no sense for Goku not to see his grandchild in those and forget what her ki feels like. There is also a major different not seeing your friends in five years, and not seeing your family which Goku actually promised to visit. No such promised was ever made to his friends. It doesn't even match Toriyama's writing since Toriyama has Goku visited his family in Neko Majin. So even if you say Goku puts training above family, he also puts his promises above all else, which is how he even got married.

Except in no other episode of Super did Goku act that dim. And the reason why I pointed out the oddity in the driving episode is because Goku showed in the first episode of Dragon Ball to be a fast learner, while Goku in the driving episode actually forgot where the gas paddle was after being told once before by the driving teacher. That is a level of dim that Goku that is inconstant with Goku's character.

Honestly, while Goku losing in the tournament in GT was dumb, it never bothered me since that entire episode was basically a gag and was not meant to be taken seriously. That and everyone in that episode was OOC to the point of lunacy.
That chapter of Neko Majin Z was literally written 10 years after the original manga ended. That's not Z era Toriyama writing, which I meant as the period when the DB manga was still being published and the Z anime airing, and we know that Toriyama's perception of Goku changes over time as he tends to forget stuff he did with his own manga. GT's narrative of Goku not seeing Pan in 5 years is in line with EoZ Goku's portrayal and obsession with training. Goku is well-known to be a training freak, not a promise keeper, as it was only when Chi-Chi reminded him of it.
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:30 pm
Goku put family >> training in the transition between DB and DBZ, he actually says he doesn't train Gohan because Chichi gets mad over it. He never visited his master and kohais in half a decade due to spending time with his family.
He would rather stay dead and meet the martial artists of the older generation than stay with his family in the World of the Living after Cell. People can and do change.
Even in Z era Goku, he never broke a promise, which he did to Pan by literally never visiting her. Which isn't the same thing as Goku not seeing his friends for five years. In fact, nothing in Goku's history showed he would abandoned his family for that long even in Z outside of being dead.

That and Goku "as it was only when Chi-Chi reminded him", only happened because he had no idea what marriage was and thought Chi-Chi was going to give him food. That and unlike Pan, he knows Pan and is personally training her, while Chi-Chi is literally met once. Even more, if he was so obsessed with training, why did he suddenly stopped training Pan? That also makes no sense for Goku to abandoned Pan completely to train when she was his student too.

On the, "Toriyama's perception of Goku changes over time as he tends to forget stuff he did with his own manga", is flaw since Toriyama actually reread his own manga several times before writing something new. Compared to back in Z where everything was on the fly. So Toriyama's view on Goku should be more fresh, not less.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Rakurai » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:21 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:03 pm
wait huh ? the artificial humans were created in order to kill goku, if goku didn't destroy the red ribbon army, they wouldn't have existed. the whole reason raditz came to earth was to find goku, and if goku wasn't there, raditz would have no reason to come there, which would mean nappa and vegeta would never come to earth. no vegeta coming to earth means that freeza never finds out about the dragon balls and it's unlikely he comes to earth or even goes to namek.

i don't agree with goku's logic to stay dead and have always found it kinda dumb, but i can see what toriyama was going for with goku saying that.
Goku never existing/living on Earth is almost a different matter than Goku remaining dead cause of something offhand Bulma mentioned. Goku did exist and left his mark on Earth, there are no takebacks when it comes to that. If Goku thinks the Earth was better off at that point without him around when FTrunks' timeline showed otherwise... well he hasn't learned anything in the end.

But I sort of digress. Goku would rather stay dead off of a vague hunch and go train with a bunch of dead fighters than to be with his family.

You know what's even more fucked up? The fact that he didn't know Goten existed. Being dead and retaining a body, you'd think he'd bother checking up on his family every once in a while. He knew the Budokai Tenkaichi was happening after all.
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:21 pm

And having perks to being dead doesn't mean they are the reason why he is staying dead, specially if the reason was already stated. We can argue all day long but Goku himself stated that he better lay off of Earth, besides he was dead, end of the line for the second time, better not keep pushing the natural ways of the universe, again. It's not like he is choosing to stay in Namekusei or take naps in some far away planet. The man can't even die that he still gets called out on his responsabilities?

Yes, Goku solved the Freeza problem but probably none of the above would've happened if he was never sent to Earth but that's for Masako to unravel.

Anyway, he can feel (based on his own experience or told by others) as guilty as he wants about his involvement in the recent crisis.
"Natural ways of the universe?" I'm sorry but what kind of bullshit is this?

Goku broke the natural ways of the universe as soon as he accepted the virus medicine from FTrunks. He broke all natural laws as soon as he started using the DBs to revive people from their causes of death.

He got killed by sacrificing Cell, an unnatural being from another timeline.

His guilt is well-found but his decision is logically flawed. Nothing about him screams "family" in that scene. He mentioned that there are fighters he can be with in the Afterlife. His intentions were noble but his preference was clear.

And what does Nozawa have to do with any of this?
HeroR wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:31 pm

Even in Z era Goku, he never broke a promise, which he did to Pan by literally never visiting her. Which isn't the same thing as Goku not seeing his friends for five years. In fact, nothing in Goku's history showed he would abandoned his family for that long even in Z outside of being dead.

That and Goku "as it was only when Chi-Chi reminded him", only happened because he had no idea what marriage was and thought Chi-Chi was going to give him food. That and unlike Pan, he knows Pan and is personally training her, while Chi-Chi is literally met once. Even more, if he was so obsessed with training, why did he suddenly stopped training Pan? That also makes no sense for Goku to abandoned Pan completely to train when she was his student too.

On the, "Toriyama's perception of Goku changes over time as he tends to forget stuff he did with his own manga", is flaw since Toriyama actually reread his own manga several times before writing something new. Compared to back in Z where everything was on the fly. So Toriyama's view on Goku should be more fresh, not less.
Puh-lease. You're reaching at this point.

It was Goku that was supposed to give Chi-Chi something.
"Ahh! I remember! I certainly did say I would make you my wife!

(Oh yeah~ I thought "wife" was some kind of food at the time... whatever that's fine... I did make a promise.)"

So 1) he didn't bother going out in search for this food called a "wife" and 2) he forgot to make Chi-Chi his wife since it is clear from the dialogue he learned what a "wife" is at some point before his re-encounter with Chi-Chi. Only when he is reminded of it. And he does so in a nonchalant manner which implies it wasn't something he really thought about often if ever at all.

But frankly speaking, this whole fixation with "promise keeping" is a perception that arises out of actions which aren't emphasized as character traits by Goku, as opposed to him loving to train and fight above almost everything. It's a vague thing that might have lined up with his actions, but ultimately aren't a part of his actual character. Nowhere in the manga or series was it ever emphasized or even slightly noted that Goku is well-known for keeping his promises. Otherwise we wouldn't have this whole marriage misunderstanding, which again shows he never really cared or gave much thought to his "promise."

If he is reminded by someone of something that he is obligated to do, then sure he would probably fulfill it. But GT implies he hasn't seen anyone in 5 years so he wasn't reminded of any "promise" that not even Pan gave a rat's ass about by the start of GT.

Source that he rereads his own manga several times before writing something new like Neko Majin?
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:20 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:21 am

But I sort of digress. Goku would rather stay dead off of a vague hunch and go train with a bunch of dead fighters than to be with his family.
but that's not why he's doing it. like i get death of the author stuff but no, goku's logic is supposed to be "i attracted bad guys, earth won't be peaceful if i'm here", not that he wants to train, that's just a bonus to him, not his main reasoning.

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