Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:34 pm

Peach wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:38 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:27 pm
Peach wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:49 pm
I assumed he did the Super Saiyan ritual off screen between the two movies.

I'm not really looking at the Toei recap episodes. Seems like Toriyama wasn't really involved and was developing the Zamasu saga during that.
It was flat out stated by Goku in all versions of RoF that Vegeta intentionally did not use the ritual to achieve God status.
Not in the movie.

Toei may have wrote that line as padding for their weekly show, but I don't take all their dialog seriously. They also said there's 21 planets left or something. BS.
The 28 planets nonsense was in the manga too.

Also, Toyotaro wrote an official RoF manga in 2015, and Vegeta wasn't ever stated to have used the ritual there either.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:40 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:10 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:23 pm
Vegeta obviously DID achieve SSG in the anime, otherwise he would have never gotten SSB at all.

Because as Goku himself explains in both versions of RoF, you need SSG in order to unlock SSB because SSB is simply when you combine SSG with SSJ1.
Goku said "the power of Super Saiyan God", right? Here's the thing, I don't think that means exactly "you have to achieve SSGod", but just "you have to achieve god ki". IMO Vegeta after some training with Whis unlocked the godly ki, but he didn't transformed in SS God, at least in the anime.
That doesn't make any sense. "the power of Super Saiyan God" literally means the transformation itself. If Goku meant "you only need God Ki (which isnt exclusive to SSG)" then he would have just said something like "SSB is what happens when you mix God ki with SSJ1)".

There's no way Vegeta would have ever gotten the power of SSG of he never got the form itself (logic 101). So its stupid to assume that he never got SSG in the anime.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:34 pm

I can't agree with that. Let's see:

Here Goku was using "the power of Super Saiyan God", but he wasn't transformed (Beyond God or whatever you want to call it). If "the power of Super Saiyan God" means the transformation he should have transformed. If it's possible to use this power without transform, I don't see why a saiyan will necessarily transform if he learn how to use godly ki without the ritual.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:57 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:34 pm
If it's possible to use this power without transform, I don't see why a saiyan will necessarily transform if he learn how to use godly ki without the ritual.
well, Ultra Instinct has been confirmed using God Ki, but Goku doesn't transforms into SSGod, so....

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by head_cha_la » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:02 pm

There is no need for the ritual, with training simply! Vegeta tells Cabba to train hard to become SSJ Blue in anime and manga, and Goku told Caulifla to forget about SSJ3 to reach the level beyond! So it confirms that Vegeta did it only with training!

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:08 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:34 pm
I can't agree with that. Let's see:

Here Goku was using "the power of Super Saiyan God", but he wasn't transformed (Beyond God or whatever you want to call it). If "the power of Super Saiyan God" means the transformation he should have transformed. If it's possible to use this power without transform, I don't see why a saiyan will necessarily transform if he learn how to use godly ki without the ritual.
There's way too many fallacies in your post.

- "Saiyan Beyond God" isn't SSG at all, its simply a state of being where a base Saiyan reaches God levels of power. That's why Goku & Vegeta can still use their God forms after the boost to their base forms.

- You failed to prove that SSB is simply "SSJ1 with God ki", which doesn't make any sense.

- Its been shown numerous times in the series that you don't a God transformation to use God ki at all. God ki is not exclusive to SSG, so to assume that "the power of SSG" means Goku was only referring to God ki and not the actual SSG transformation is stupid.

-"If "the power of Super Saiyan God" means the transformation he should have transformed."

This argument doesn't make any logical sense at all, especially literally did transform when demonstrating SSB.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:32 pm

No matter how I look at it, I just can’t seem to get a clue as to how Vegeta achieved SSJ God on his own. What training methods were being used? And how is SSJ God so different from SSJ Blue?! They totally have nothing in common! It’s like they’re fundamentally different transformations! I can’t seem to get my head around as to how ill explained it all is by the writers. It’s all very ill defined, and I think us fans deserve a proper answer.

Simply have Toriyama come out and say something like: “Whis has Vegeta train his Base form with those heavy weights and sparring with him, and then have him send to “that place” inside Whis’ staff to experience the Godly ki around him, and to learn to control his own ki, so that it doesn’t leak from his body.”

(Or something else)

At least a proper, well defined, well detailed answer would do.

Also, did he achieve SSJ God BEFORE SSJ Blue?? I assume so!
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:38 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:08 pm
There's way too many fallacies in your post.

- "Saiyan Beyond God" isn't SSG at all, its simply a state of being where a base Saiyan reaches God levels of power. That's why Goku & Vegeta can still use their God forms after the boost to their base forms.

- You failed to prove that SSB is simply "SSJ1 with God ki", which doesn't make any sense.

- Its been shown numerous times in the series that you don't a God transformation to use God ki at all. God ki is not exclusive to SSG, so to assume that "the power of SSG" means Goku was only referring to God ki and not the actual SSG transformation is stupid.

-"If "the power of Super Saiyan God" means the transformation he should have transformed."

This argument doesn't make any logical sense at all, especially literally did transform when demonstrating SSB.
You are answering my "fallacies" with your own :lol:. I feel like this discussion will take forever, because I don't think that your arguments make sense, and you probably think the same thing about mine. Anyway:

We don't know what exactly what "Beyond God" is, but there's more than one interpretation about the form. Probably because of that it's hard to have a consense in debates. In my case, Beyond God is just when a saiyan can use all the power of SS God, but without transform (the famous "two base theory").

Also, as far as I know "power of SS God" and "godly ki" are the same thing. Unless, of course, there is something explicitly saying that they are two different things.

But IMO the most important thing is: Goku gave us a short explanation, without details. There's probably a lot more than just "This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan", we just don't know yet.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:54 pm

Blue is literally stated being "Going Super Saiyan with [the power of a Super Saiyan God]"

Many here believe "Power of a Super Saiyan God" is "God Ki".

Do you have any scan\reference\proof that "Power of a Super Saiyan God" and "God Ki" are different things?

It's worth to note that "Super Saiyan God" implies "God Ki" but "God Ki" doesn't implies "Super Saiyan God"(see Ultra Instinct)

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:41 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:38 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:08 pm
There's way too many fallacies in your post.

- "Saiyan Beyond God" isn't SSG at all, its simply a state of being where a base Saiyan reaches God levels of power. That's why Goku & Vegeta can still use their God forms after the boost to their base forms.

- You failed to prove that SSB is simply "SSJ1 with God ki", which doesn't make any sense.

- Its been shown numerous times in the series that you don't a God transformation to use God ki at all. God ki is not exclusive to SSG, so to assume that "the power of SSG" means Goku was only referring to God ki and not the actual SSG transformation is stupid.

-"If "the power of Super Saiyan God" means the transformation he should have transformed."

This argument doesn't make any logical sense at all, especially literally did transform when demonstrating SSB.
You are answering my "fallacies" with your own :lol:. I feel like this discussion will take forever, because I don't think that your arguments make sense, and you probably think the same thing about mine. Anyway:

We don't know what exactly what "Beyond God" is, but there's more than one interpretation about the form. Probably because of that it's hard to have a consense in debates. In my case, Beyond God is just when a saiyan can use all the power of SS God, but without transform (the famous "two base theory").

Also, as far as I know "power of SS God" and "godly ki" are the same thing. Unless, of course, there is something explicitly saying that they are two different things.

But IMO the most important thing is: Goku gave us a short explanation, without details. There's probably a lot more than just "This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan", we just don't know yet.
There are no fallacies in my post. You failed to point out any.

Also, 2 Base Theory is a debunked myth. Its nothing more than just a headcanon excuse to downplay certain characters in the series because they cant accept the fact that certain characters are just that powerful (ex. "there's no way Cabba solos Z") smh.

"Saiyan beyond God" is simply a really powerful base Saiyan with God ki. It isn't SSG nor is it even a transformation at all (they very fact that Goku & Vegeta could even use SSG & SSB again after BoG at all proves this.) If Saiyan beyond God was "SSG in base form" then Goku and Vegeta would have no reason to ever use any form below SSB again.

And bro, its an obvious fact that "SSG" and God ki are different things, since there's multiple characters in the series they use God ki without SSG or any God form at all. Its that's a lot of BS mental gymnastics to assume Goku was referring to God ki in RoF.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 pm

Is not like I'm failing to point your fallacies. IMO the whole post is a fallacy, so there's no need to point anything.

Also, probably you know that, but I'm just giving my opinion. But the thing is, you are answering like you are pointing out the facts, but you're not (unless of course you point the sources). That's just your headcanon, who you are using to counter my headcanon. That's why the best option here is agree to disagree, because you can't convince me and I can't convince you.

Finally, I said "'power of SS God' and 'godly ki' are the same thing". I'm not talking about the transformation, but about the power behind that.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:41 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:14 pm
What exact training method was being used for him to attain such a divine and miraculous transformation that normally requiers a magic ritual involving 5 other good hearted Saiyans to pour their spirit energy into you???

We know Vegeta got it from Whis’ training and not the magic ritual.

What exact teachings and training methods did he get from Whis to be able to unlock that other worldly form??

Is anyone able to guess?

We know that SSJ Blue is achieved through hiding your energy/aura inside your body as deeply as you can, and then turn SSJ on top of it to turn SSJ Blue.

But what is the method to achieve SSJ God?
We don't know, it's never been explained in the manga or anime. Maybe the ritual was performed off screen, maybe he learned how to transform from watching Goku, or maybe Whis was able to transform him after seeing the ritual and learning exactly what causes the transformation.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:07 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:41 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:14 pm
What exact training method was being used for him to attain such a divine and miraculous transformation that normally requiers a magic ritual involving 5 other good hearted Saiyans to pour their spirit energy into you???

We know Vegeta got it from Whis’ training and not the magic ritual.

What exact teachings and training methods did he get from Whis to be able to unlock that other worldly form??

Is anyone able to guess?

We know that SSJ Blue is achieved through hiding your energy/aura inside your body as deeply as you can, and then turn SSJ on top of it to turn SSJ Blue.

But what is the method to achieve SSJ God?
We don't know, it's never been explained in the manga or anime. Maybe the ritual was performed off screen, maybe he learned how to transform from watching Goku, or maybe Whis was able to transform him after seeing the ritual and learning exactly what causes the transformation.
Uhm no. In the RoF Anime version Goku clearly stated that Vegeta achieved it on his own without the help of other Saiyans. This is common knowledge.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:34 pm
Also, Toyotaro wrote an official RoF manga in 2015, and Vegeta wasn't ever stated to have used the ritual there either.
Again, how Vegeta learned SSGSS was only in one adaptation. The anime.

Movies, it's implied the ritual was used. Manga skips Resurrection F (or if you wanna include the Res F promotional chapters, it skips the fight where it's used) so it doesn't matter.

I wouldn't care too much. There's 3 continuities and I'm pretty sure every version of Resurrection F has been retconned in someway by this point anyhow (what with SSG not being absorbed anymore.)

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Peach » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:36 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:34 pm
Also, Toyotaro wrote an official RoF manga in 2015, and Vegeta wasn't ever stated to have used the ritual there either.
Again, how Vegeta learned SSGSS was only in one adaptation. The anime.

Movies, it's implied the ritual was used. Manga skips Resurrection F (or if you wanna include the Res F promotional chapters, it skips the fight where it's used) so it doesn't matter.

I wouldn't care too much. There's 3 continuities and I'm pretty sure every version of Resurrection F has been retconned in someway by this point anyhow (what with SSG not being absorbed anymore.)
Finally someone is talking with common sense. This is true. There are three continuities.


1. The movie continuity, which starts off years later. Everything in the manga and Yo Son Goku and His Friends Return happened.

2. The anime continuity, which kickstarts only 6 months after Kid Buu. This seems to be a direct sequel to the Dragon Ball Z anime since it includes filler characters like Gregory. The movie continuity seem has shifted into existing in this world starting with Dragon Ball Super Broly.

3. The manga continuity.


Obviously stuff that happened in the anime continuity (like Vegeta changing Beerus' sheets, circumventing the ritual, Captain Ginyu returning, and the superhuman water saga) didn't happen in the the movie or the manga. It's just Toei's interpretation of events.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:37 am

manga RoF literally tells you to watch the movie for the complete events, so i'd say the RoF movie is canon to the manga continuity

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:07 am

Peach wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:36 am
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:34 pm
Also, Toyotaro wrote an official RoF manga in 2015, and Vegeta wasn't ever stated to have used the ritual there either.
Again, how Vegeta learned SSGSS was only in one adaptation. The anime.

Movies, it's implied the ritual was used. Manga skips Resurrection F (or if you wanna include the Res F promotional chapters, it skips the fight where it's used) so it doesn't matter.

I wouldn't care too much. There's 3 continuities and I'm pretty sure every version of Resurrection F has been retconned in someway by this point anyhow (what with SSG not being absorbed anymore.)
Finally someone is talking with common sense. This is true. There are three continuities.


1. The movie continuity, which starts off years later. Everything in the manga and Yo Son Goku and His Friends Return happened.

2. The anime continuity, which kickstarts only 6 months after Kid Buu. This seems to be a direct sequel to the Dragon Ball Z anime since it includes filler characters like Gregory. The movie continuity seem has shifted into existing in this world starting with Dragon Ball Super Broly.

3. The manga continuity.


Obviously stuff that happened in the anime continuity (like Vegeta changing Beerus' sheets, circumventing the ritual, Captain Ginyu returning, and the superhuman water saga) didn't happen in the the movie or the manga. It's just Toei's interpretation of events.
There's literally no way Vegeta could have used the ritual in any continuity. It makes zero sense (and no were in the Movie is Vegeta using the ritual ever implied. You are just reading into things).

- 1st, the ritual requires a Saiyan standing in a circle with 5 other Saiyans holding hands. To argue that Vegeta used the ritual to unlock SSG is to argue that at some point after BoG Vegeta called up Goku, Gohan, Goten, Trunks and a pregent Videl again to perform the ritual again, which is never implied to have happened in any version of RoF.

- The fact that Gohan and the all the Z-fighters except Goku were all surprised that Vegeta could even use God ki and God forms at all in every version of RoF suggest that they never used the ritual on Vegeta.

- Also, claiming Vegeta used to ritual fails to explain why they never bothered using it on Gohan and the other 2 Saiyans afterwards when there's no cost in doing so.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:09 am

Peach wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:36 am
The movie continuity seem has shifted into existing in this world starting with Dragon Ball Super Broly.
I wouldn't be so sure honestly. DBS Broly deliberately ignores aspects exclusive to the anime (including the minor would-be relevant plot detail from the Res F recap that Frieza already knows what fusion is.) It's arguably the only media that could hold true for all 3 continuities, especially since the manga basically just says to watch the movie like with Resurrection F.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 pm
Is not like I'm failing to point your fallacies. IMO the whole post is a fallacy, so there's no need to point anything.

Also, probably you know that, but I'm just giving my opinion. But the thing is, you are answering like you are pointing out the facts, but you're not (unless of course you point the sources). That's just your headcanon, who you are using to counter my headcanon. That's why the best option here is agree to disagree, because you can't convince me and I can't convince you.

Finally, I said "'power of SS God' and 'godly ki' are the same thing". I'm not talking about the transformation, but about the power behind that.
So you admit you can't prove me wrong lmao.

- "But the thing is, you are answering like you are pointing out the facts, but you're not (unless of course you point the sources). That's just your headcanon, who you are using to counter my headcanon"

Thats just your opinion is not a real argument. And I have used sources, just listen in RoF when Goku explains SSB to Freeza.

- "Finally, I said "'power of SS God' and 'godly ki' are the same thing". I'm not talking about the transformation, but about the power behind that."

This is a dumb argument because the power behind SSG is the transformation. Transformations are isolated sets of power, they are multipliers of a person's base power.

And if "SSG" and "Godly ki" are the same thing then that means Beerus and all the other GoDS and Kais also have SSG, which shows how dumb that interpretation really is lmao.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:25 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:09 am
Peach wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:36 am
The movie continuity seem has shifted into existing in this world starting with Dragon Ball Super Broly.
I wouldn't be so sure honestly. DBS Broly deliberately ignores aspects exclusive to the anime (including the minor would-be relevant plot detail from the Res F recap that Frieza already knows what fusion is.) It's arguably the only media that could hold true for all 3 continuities, especially since the manga basically just says to watch the movie like with Resurrection F.
The TV anime versions of both BoG and RoF (and manga version of BoG) all contradict the Movie versions of events, so there's no way the Movies are canon to all mediums (especially since back in January 2018 Toriyama said that the Broly film would take place directly after the ToP anime).

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