Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Dragon Ball Ireland
I Live Here
Posts: 3540
Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Sligo, Ireland

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:57 am

ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:32 am DBZA has more depth? Now we're comparing it to The Empire Strikes Back? Did I wake up in Bizarro World?

And we were given a reason why Bulma took to Vegeta, she came to admire his sense of pride.
Right on the money. Empire Strikes Back is a movie driven by character and story. DBZ Abriged is a parody that is meant to be enjoyed but not taken seriously. Empire is also part of a trilogy, and a sequel that isn't entirely dependent on the content of Star Wars, as Abriged is to Dragon Ball Z. Not comparable at all.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

MyVisionity
Banned
Posts: 1834
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:00 am

I suppose for all of those who find the first DB series to be a waste of time and want to skip ahead to Z, but are not interested in the Japanese version, and find Abridged to be funnier and better written than the Funimation dub, then they will prefer to watch TFS instead.

precita
Banned
Posts: 6037
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by precita » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:14 am

Can someone explain to me what DBZA even is for someone who never watched it before? I know it's a parody dub, but do they actually go through every episode and cover the events of every saga? I'm a little confused by people saying people "watch through DBZ" this way. Do they actually go through all the big key events of the Saiyan and Freeza sagas, etc? I obviously know they don't dub all the fillers or every ep, but how do they do this? They cut episodes together and go through the big events?

User avatar
goku the krump dancer
I Live Here
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:17 am

Abridged is a mild retelling of the story through use of stereotypes and forum/sub-reddit memes. How anyone can say they prefer it over the series proper is beyond me and I'd question whether or not they're really a Dragon Ball fan at all.

I like Gohan's Speech to Cell about his disdain for fighting in Abridged, its a great summarization of Gohan's feelings at the time but it also sounds like a fan's synopsis, not something Gohan himself would say.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels

User avatar
coola
I Live Here
Posts: 3360
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:33 am
Location: Poland

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by coola » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:24 am

precita wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:14 am Can someone explain to me what DBZA even is for someone who never watched it before? I know it's a parody dub, but do they actually go through every episode and cover the events of every saga? I'm a little confused by people saying people "watch through DBZ" this way. Do they actually go through all the big key events of the Saiyan and Freeza sagas, etc? I obviously know they don't dub all the fillers or every ep, but how do they do this? They cut episodes together and go through the big events?
I know some reactors, like Calvin from Blind Wave and Spaz Boys, who said they didnt watched original series, and they seem to enjoy it, for Blind Wave, others often told Calvin how events went in actual series.
My Twitter: @kamil198811
Bulma fan
Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015

User avatar
TheBlackPaladin
I Live Here
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:15 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:32 amNow we're comparing it to The Empire Strikes Back?
Certainly not overall, no. Only in a very, very specific sense, which is that it gave a little more dimension to characters that had already been created and established. And, well...yeah, they did. I'll repeat that I don't blame Toriyama for this because he was never trying to create a deep story, he was trying to create a fun and simple adventure story.
ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:32 amAnd we were given a reason why Bulma took to Vegeta, she came to admire his sense of pride.
Was that ever mentioned in the story itself? I honestly don't recall that. Even if that is the explanation though, it still doesn't make nearly as much sense as what DBZA came up with.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:32 pm

It isn’t comparable in any way and I have no idea what you mean by depth because I don’t see that from TFS’s take on her attraction. For one she was not out to prove herself to anyone.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Yuli Ban
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Contact:

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by Yuli Ban » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:24 pm

My opinion on the matter is that DBZA is superior to the Saban/early FUNi dub DBZ so it's a better version to watch.

If I'm going to watch a bastardized version of Dragon Ball Z with hilariously unfitting voices, nonsensical jokes, script rewrites that change the story sometimes on a fundamental level, and a general sense of not giving a fuck, why not go with TFS's Abridged which does all that on purpose with an actual sense of comedy and isn't literally just trying to adapt Dragon Ball Z? Even at its least parody-ish moments (especially the last batch of episodes where many felt it was all but a new dub of DBZ) it still predominantly poked fun at Dragon Ball Z, especially the absurdity of the original manga's story. Because Funimation had largely unfucked themselves from the horror show that was the Namek/Freeza/early Android arcs (at least the most egregious examples) there was less to make fun of to boot.

This is why TFS seems to have peaked in its first two and a half seasons: most of their comedy then was simply riffing on the Saban/Ocean/early in-house Funi dub with bits of things like Toonzai Kai, sometimes lifting lines word for word. The parody was making fun of just how stupid the changes and censorship was. Because Funimation improved somewhat after that point (emphasis on somewhat) there was less to make fun of script-wise or censorship-wise and that's really when they shifted to poking fun at the manga itself and imbuing their own jokes and lore into it, which again is basically the closest it came to being an actual fandub.

But once you get to the Kai dub and the original Japanese version, its status as a parody takes precedence. The parody works best when you know what it's parodying, even though I think it still holds up on its own (much like the aforementioned Spaceballs or Blazing Saddles or Airplane!).

As for others, I do have a hypothesis.

Plenty of people who say that DBZA is better than the original series tend to be those who still rely on the original English dub of DBZ as their source of what Dragon Ball is. For all they know, Dragon Ball Z started in 1996 and ended in 2003 and the fact it was an early Japanese show is just a footnote. They may not even know that Sean Schemmel wasn't the first voice of Z Goku in English. Sometimes, they haven't even seen Dragon Ball Z in decades since it went off the air on Toonami, outside of maybe a few games and maybe the 2010s Z/Super movies or, of course, Dragon Ball Super itself. And a lot of the times I have definitely noticed that if they have kept up with Dragon Ball, their opinion of Dragon Ball Z Kai is the same as most casual fans' since 2010-2011— "mud blood, no swearing, censored out the wazoo, they cut out all the good stuff" etc. You know, the Nicktoons version, not the uncut version. It flummoxed me too, but apparently there are still plenty of people who think Nicktoons Kai was what Kai was as a whole. You could swap out Faulconer for orchestral kung fu music and change the script to be more accurate and lose "I am the hope of the universe" and whatnot, but once you take away the blood and swearing, what's even the point? At that point, DBZA seems so much more appealing and has better jokes and more self-awareness.

The point of this being that their idea of the "original series" isn't really the "original series" but a bastardized version of it. DBZA is directly poking fun at these bastardized versions constantly on top of still telling the story in a much more self-aware and less restrained manner.
This doesn't explain ALL cases because there are just some who prefer DBZA on its own merits, but I do believe my own spurious, barely-researched hypothesis.

TLDR: In my own opinion, DBZA is a better experience than the VERY awkward 90s English dub but doesn't take precedence over the original series. People who say DBZA > DBZ are usually talking about the old-school dub version of DBZ, still hold antipathy over Nicktoons Kai, or haven't even watched Dragon Ball in the first place save for MAYBE Super.
The Yabanverse
My own take on Saiyajins in a fanverse.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:06 pm

Maybe the early in house dub but not the Ocean dub, not by a long shot.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:58 pm

I’ve said this before, but the parody aspect of DBZA is a lot less apparent in later episodes. By the time they get to the Cell arc, they not only more or less do a straightforward adaptation of the series, but they also weirdly make efforts to “improve” on the original story. A key example is how they tie Dr. Gero’s son into his reason for hating Goku, which I found unnecessary, partly because some fans now seem to think that’s canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:43 pm

I have seen stuff from that late into the show and that's just not true. It's a parody straight up. Dropping the nugget of Gero's son doesn't make it earnest since that was something Toriyama came up with in an interview as I recall.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:37 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:43 pm I have seen stuff from that late into the show and that's just not true. It's a parody straight up. Dropping the nugget of Gero's son doesn't make it earnest since that was something Toriyama came up with in an interview as I recall.
It does attempt to be more earnest in later episodes. That’s not up for debate. Also, Toriyama established that Dr. Gero based #16 on his dead son, but in DBZA, its established that Goku killed Gero’s son, thus changing his reason for hating Goku.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:40 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:37 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:43 pm I have seen stuff from that late into the show and that's just not true. It's a parody straight up. Dropping the nugget of Gero's son doesn't make it earnest since that was something Toriyama came up with in an interview as I recall.
It does attempt to be more earnest in later episodes. That’s not up for debate. Also, Toriyama established that Dr. Gero based #16 on his dead son, but in DBZA, its established that Goku killed Gero’s son, thus changing his reason for hating Goku.
It is absolutely up for debate. It's the same ridiculous random humor throughout. This little nugget about 16 doesn't give anything more depth. It's a hackneyed motivation.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:46 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:40 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:37 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:43 pm I have seen stuff from that late into the show and that's just not true. It's a parody straight up. Dropping the nugget of Gero's son doesn't make it earnest since that was something Toriyama came up with in an interview as I recall.
It does attempt to be more earnest in later episodes. That’s not up for debate. Also, Toriyama established that Dr. Gero based #16 on his dead son, but in DBZA, its established that Goku killed Gero’s son, thus changing his reason for hating Goku.
It is absolutely up for debate. It's the same ridiculous random humor throughout. This little nugget about 16 doesn't give anything more depth. It's a hackneyed motivation.
Not really. For one, the early episodes regularly have the characters breaking the fourth wall. They stop doing that after a while. The later episodes also put a tad more emphasis on the drama, while the early episodes basically never take themselves seriously. And just to be clear, I agree that it’s a hackneyed motivation, but it’s obviously something they included because they thought it would add more depth.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:50 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:46 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:40 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:37 pm

It does attempt to be more earnest in later episodes. That’s not up for debate. Also, Toriyama established that Dr. Gero based #16 on his dead son, but in DBZA, its established that Goku killed Gero’s son, thus changing his reason for hating Goku.
It is absolutely up for debate. It's the same ridiculous random humor throughout. This little nugget about 16 doesn't give anything more depth. It's a hackneyed motivation.
Not really. For one, the early episodes regularly have the characters breaking the fourth wall. They stop doing that after a while. The later episodes also put a tad more emphasis on the drama, while the early episodes basically never take themselves seriously. And just to be clear, I agree that it’s a hackneyed motivation, but it’s obviously something they included because they thought it would add more depth.
The kind of humor changing doesn't make it more earnest. It is up for debate. I watched an entire episode and as much as I loathed it, it's still SO comedically bent, how you can tell me with a straight face that it indisputably became more earnest is baffling. Really? No one can possibly watch those episodes and see them as just as much of a parody as the when the show started?

I don't know the context of the scene in question but that doesn't necessarily mean it was meant to add more depth.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:56 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:50 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:46 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:40 pm

It is absolutely up for debate. It's the same ridiculous random humor throughout. This little nugget about 16 doesn't give anything more depth. It's a hackneyed motivation.
Not really. For one, the early episodes regularly have the characters breaking the fourth wall. They stop doing that after a while. The later episodes also put a tad more emphasis on the drama, while the early episodes basically never take themselves seriously. And just to be clear, I agree that it’s a hackneyed motivation, but it’s obviously something they included because they thought it would add more depth.
The kind of humor changing doesn't make it more earnest. It is up for debate. I watched an entire episode and as much as I loathed it, it's still SO comedically bent, how you can tell me with a straight face that it indisputably became more earnest is baffling.

I don't know the context of the scene in question but that doesn't necessarily mean it was meant to add more depth.
The show still remains a comedy from beginning to end, but the comedy later on puts less focus on making fun of the series it’s a parody of. It also plays certain moments more or less straight, like when Cell absorbs #18 or when Vegeta is mad about Trunks’ death. That’s why I said that it starts to feel less like a parody and more like a tongue-in-cheek fandub.

I can’t think of any other reason they would put something like that in their series. The scene where it’s revealed isn’t even really played as a joke.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:13 pm

It always is and will be a parody.
I can’t think of any other reason they would put something like that in their series.
Maybe to show it is a hacky motivation.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:25 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:13 pm It always is and will be a parody.
It’s always been intended as a parody. That was never in question. It just feels less like one later one, which I’d say is a detriment.
Maybe to show it is a hacky motivation.
Aside from the fact that the series never makes fun of that as a motivation, that seems like an incredibly random thing to “show” to begin with. Toriyama never claimed that Goku killed Dr. Gero’s son. In fact, he specifically said that Gero’s son was shot by an enemy group. In other words, Goku had nothing to do with his son’s death. Of course, thanks to TFS, I’ve now seen a few fans who do think that Goku actually killed Gero’s son, which I’m not a fan of.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:47 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:25 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:13 pm It always is and will be a parody.
It’s always been intended as a parody. That was never in question. It just feels less like one later one, which I’d say is a detriment.
Maybe to show it is a hacky motivation.
Aside from the fact that the series never makes fun of that as a motivation, that seems like an incredibly random thing to “show” to begin with. Toriyama never claimed that Goku killed Dr. Gero’s son. In fact, he specifically said that Gero’s son was shot by an enemy group. In other words, Goku had nothing to do with his son’s death. Of course, thanks to TFS, I’ve now seen a few fans who do think that Goku actually killed Gero’s son, which I’m not a fan of.
I would have to see it in context, and it's not random. They could be parodying Toriyama dropping that nugget in an interview.

Bottom line, the show doesn't add depth to DBZ and it damn sure ain't what Empire was to Star Wars.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Preferring Team Four Star's parody over the original series baffles me

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:50 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:47 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:25 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:13 pm It always is and will be a parody.
It’s always been intended as a parody. That was never in question. It just feels less like one later one, which I’d say is a detriment.
Maybe to show it is a hacky motivation.
Aside from the fact that the series never makes fun of that as a motivation, that seems like an incredibly random thing to “show” to begin with. Toriyama never claimed that Goku killed Dr. Gero’s son. In fact, he specifically said that Gero’s son was shot by an enemy group. In other words, Goku had nothing to do with his son’s death. Of course, thanks to TFS, I’ve now seen a few fans who do think that Goku actually killed Gero’s son, which I’m not a fan of.
I would have to see it in context, and it's not random. They could be parodying Toriyama dropping that nugget in an interview.

Bottom line, the show doesn't add depth to DBZ and it damn sure ain't what Empire was to Star Wars.
I wasn’t following the previous page in this thread, so I don’t know who said that, but I don’t agree with it either.

Locked