It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

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Yuji
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Yuji » Mon May 08, 2023 4:04 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:54 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 1:00 pmAt a certain point battle power-oriented fans gained a bad reputation for themselves essentially because they wouldn't shut the hell up, how's this any different?
Because media representation of women, queer people and BIPOC folks is actually important and battle powers are a dumb little world-building thing the author regrets creating.


I recognize the irony of someone who has failed to take her own advice many a time over the eighteen years she has been a member of this forum but has it not ever occured to you that you could just not reply to a thread? I've been working very hard on not doing that unless I think I'm serving a good cause. It's cut my stress down remarkably well. In fact, I'm kicking myself for being curious enough to remove you from my ignore list long enough to read this post. :rofl:
I understand that, but we've reached a point where most threads start leaning towards this kind of talk at some point. Should I, and others who share my view, just ignore half of all threads, or can we just not point out sometimes "hey, maybe this got a little off-the-rails, can we get back to Dragon Ball please"?

I think someone else said in another thread in response to one of your posts, something akin to "We don't need to bring real life into every discussion, we already live it 24/7."

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon May 08, 2023 4:07 pm

To be fair, as someone who doesn't even entirely disagree with you, I really can't say it's been that much of a thing with like threads irrelevant to it, and with this one especially...I mean it's about Videl. Like, people's biggest issues with her writing in the modern stuff is kinda based around that they just made her a mother, gender discussion is kinda inherently tied to discussion around her, especially since Super.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Mon May 08, 2023 4:17 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 4:04 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:54 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 1:00 pmAt a certain point battle power-oriented fans gained a bad reputation for themselves essentially because they wouldn't shut the hell up, how's this any different?
Because media representation of women, queer people and BIPOC folks is actually important and battle powers are a dumb little world-building thing the author regrets creating.


I recognize the irony of someone who has failed to take her own advice many a time over the eighteen years she has been a member of this forum but has it not ever occured to you that you could just not reply to a thread? I've been working very hard on not doing that unless I think I'm serving a good cause. It's cut my stress down remarkably well. In fact, I'm kicking myself for being curious enough to remove you from my ignore list long enough to read this post. :rofl:
I understand that, but we've reached a point where most threads start leaning towards this kind of talk at some point. Should I, and others who share my view, just ignore half of all threads, or can we just not point out sometimes "hey, maybe this got a little off-the-rails, can we get back to Dragon Ball please"?

I think someone else said in another thread in response to one of your posts, something akin to "We don't need to bring real life into every discussion, we already live it 24/7."
Would it really kill you to just post less or just make the sort of discussion threads you want to discuss?

You've chosen a really weird thread to take this stand in.

I guarantee we wouldn't have to keep rehashing the same dumb conversations if people didn't weirdly push back against "Wow, this female/queer character being treated this way is bad, I hope it doesn't happen again in the future!"
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 08, 2023 4:39 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 4:07 pm , I really can't say it's been that much of a thing with like threads irrelevant to it, and with this one especially...I mean it's about Videl. Like, people's biggest issues with her writing in the modern stuff is kinda based around that they just made her a mother, gender discussion is kinda inherently tied to discussion around her, especially since Super.
This part.

I could understand being frustrated if the topic is like "Should Super Saiyan 4 become implemented in Super?" And then someone goes out of their way to find a way to go "Buuuut sexism! 😠"

But....is that even happening..... like at all? This is a thread about how Videl started out "as a tomboy with attitude and then became a boring housewife (per the OP's words) " I think Toriyama's tendency to turn all his females characters into wives and mothers and the larger sexist implications especially Videl in particular, who remains Toriyama's biggest failing in that department, are completely valid and relevant to this kind of thread.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed May 24, 2023 11:31 am

Yuji wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 4:04 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:54 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 1:00 pmAt a certain point battle power-oriented fans gained a bad reputation for themselves essentially because they wouldn't shut the hell up, how's this any different?
Because media representation of women, queer people and BIPOC folks is actually important and battle powers are a dumb little world-building thing the author regrets creating.


I recognize the irony of someone who has failed to take her own advice many a time over the eighteen years she has been a member of this forum but has it not ever occured to you that you could just not reply to a thread? I've been working very hard on not doing that unless I think I'm serving a good cause. It's cut my stress down remarkably well. In fact, I'm kicking myself for being curious enough to remove you from my ignore list long enough to read this post. :rofl:
I understand that, but we've reached a point where most threads start leaning towards this kind of talk at some point. Should I, and others who share my view, just ignore half of all threads, or can we just not point out sometimes "hey, maybe this got a little off-the-rails, can we get back to Dragon Ball please"?

I think someone else said in another thread in response to one of your posts, something akin to "We don't need to bring real life into every discussion, we already live it 24/7."
I advice you to do what the others have said, be the change you want to see in the world. You should make the sort of threads you want to see on Kanzenshuu
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Wed May 24, 2023 4:08 pm

It's not much but the Superhero movied mentioned that she's a martial arts teacher/self defense trainer by day. So at least they show that she used her previous passion for combat into something constructive to help other people. It's a good contrast to her father who used his status and combat prowess for nothing but selfish gain. Doesn't fix that the character has no place in the story anymore beyond being a supportive wife background character.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Wed May 24, 2023 4:10 pm

I mean, it's one thing to toss in a random note of "Oh, she's got martial artists students now!" and another thing entirely to actually tell her story. Seeing is believing, as they say. She's ultimately as disregarded and alien to the story as she was during the original 1984 comic series, only now with slightly less overt misogyny.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Thu May 25, 2023 5:26 am

I said that it doesn't actually fix anything. She's still just supportive wife archetype at the end of the day.
The contrast with Mr. Satan is just me looking too deep into it because the series gives her absolutely nothing to do outside of existing in the background.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu May 25, 2023 9:17 am

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:26 am I said that it doesn't actually fix anything. She's still just supportive wife archetype at the end of the day.
The contrast with Mr. Satan is just me looking too deep into it because the series gives her absolutely nothing to do outside of existing in the background.
Understandable, unfortunately, sometimes, you have to settle for table scraps.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by PurestEvil » Thu May 25, 2023 9:27 am

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:08 pm It's not much but the Superhero movied mentioned that she's a martial arts teacher/self defense trainer by day.
Hopefully they can show that instead of telling us again in a later story, preferably one centered around Gohan’s family life.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Thu May 25, 2023 11:27 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:17 am
BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:26 am I said that it doesn't actually fix anything. She's still just supportive wife archetype at the end of the day.
The contrast with Mr. Satan is just me looking too deep into it because the series gives her absolutely nothing to do outside of existing in the background.
Understandable, unfortunately, sometimes, you have to settle for table scraps.
I mean, I won't settle, but I'm also not going to keep posting about it when I could be off doing gay shit with girls lulz.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Scientist Fu » Thu May 25, 2023 12:00 pm

Well, saying a "boring housewife" is rude, imo. But, I also don't like the fact that when a lady gets married she is automatically reduced to a "housewife" for the rest of her life, when in reality, one of them is much stronger than the husband (hello C-18). I can understand that the child and the mom are very close (because I am too) and that they need each other more than anything, but some diversity in a fictional world won't hurt. I hope once Pan grows up, Videl will be more helpful in the future (if they decide to do something with her).

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Thu May 25, 2023 12:23 pm

Scientist Fu wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:00 pm Well, saying a "boring housewife" is rude, imo. But, I also don't like the fact that when a lady gets married she is automatically reduced to a "housewife" for the rest of her life, when in reality, one of them is much stronger than the husband (hello C-18). I can understand that the child and the mom are very close (because I am too) and that they need each other more than anything, but some diversity in a fictional world won't hurt. I hope once Pan grows up, Videl will be more helpful in the future (if they decide to do something with her).
I agree that 'boring housewife' smacks of back-handed misogyny/sexism.

My opinion as a woman—for all that it's worth on a forum of overwhelmingly cishet men—is that the precise issue is that these characters do not have character arcs and exist purely for pointing and laughing at women or re-inforcing the idea that the women in the lives of its 'male targeted' audience are a pain in their asses. Of course, girls also read these types of stories and I think that leaves a negative impression on kids.

I don't necessarily need a woman saving the planet (although they fuckin' should 'cause fuck the haters) but I also don't really need a man saving the planet (actually, they should all stop being able to save the planet). I think that Dragon Ball would do some good to actually have women involved in the creation process. It's not like Toriyama writes all the shit without in-put from others himself, after all.

Too bad JUMP doesn't allow women to be editors.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu May 25, 2023 7:03 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 4:39 pm
This part.

I could understand being frustrated if the topic is like "Should Super Saiyan 4 become implemented in Super?" And then someone goes out of their way to find a way to go "Buuuut sexism! 😠"

But....is that even happening..... like at all? This is a thread about how Videl started out "as a tomboy with attitude and then became a boring housewife (per the OP's words) " I think Toriyama's tendency to turn all his females characters into wives and mothers and the larger sexist implications especially Videl in particular, who remains Toriyama's biggest failing in that department, are completely valid and relevant to this kind of thread.
This is what I don't get either. Only threads that are explicitly about politics like this one attract that kind of discussion. Most people on this site are ostensibly grown-ass adults, so it definitely shouldn't be taboo to discuss topics related to cold hard reality, occasionally.

All that said, a few years ago, I would've been more sympathetic to Yuji's arguments. Maybe it was just COVID isolation getting people worked up, but there indeed were an awful lot of obvious bait threads that inevitably got derailed with large amounts of shit-flinging on both sides. NGL, it was good tea to tune into, but those kinds of threads rarely appear anymore. At this point, it's just counterproductive and flamebait-y for someone to jump into a thread purely to order everyone else to stop talking about stuff that either make them uncomfortable or holds no concern to them in the first place. It really is best to just not engage at all.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Fri May 26, 2023 11:31 am

Scientist Fu wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:00 pm Well, saying a "boring housewife" is rude, imo. But, I also don't like the fact that when a lady gets married she is automatically reduced to a "housewife" for the rest of her life, when in reality, one of them is much stronger than the husband (hello C-18). I can understand that the child and the mom are very close (because I am too) and that they need each other more than anything, but some diversity in a fictional world won't hurt. I hope once Pan grows up, Videl will be more helpful in the future (if they decide to do something with her).
It is rude which is why I try to say "housewife archetype." (Because it is an archetype within Dragon Ball) On the other end of the spectrum Bulma at least got to buck that trend to some extent by being a scientist, business manager even after becoming a mom. However she's the only character to do that so that's a real problem. It kinda feels like Toriyama had no idea what to do with these characters after their initial story arc ends. Much like how Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, and many others fell into that trap after their character arc's ended and power creep became more serious.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by BlueChi » Fri May 26, 2023 11:50 am

JulieYBM wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:10 pm I mean, it's one thing to toss in a random note of "Oh, she's got martial artists students now!" and another thing entirely to actually tell her story. Seeing is believing, as they say. She's ultimately as disregarded and alien to the story as she was during the original 1984 comic series, only now with slightly less overt misogyny.
At this point you're asking for Dragon Ball to not be Dragon Ball and switch genres.
I'd love for a slice-of-life DB spinoff, don't get me wrong, but it's pretty silly to complain that a battle shonen manga isn't showing us the daily struggles of a tertiary character's professional achievements. There's not even precedent for it with characters that had considerably much more screentime than Videl.

At the end of the day, Videl is unable to catch up with literal deities and she isn't Bulma, someone who can break the laws of reality with her intelligence. The logistics of jamming the jamming the character in the plot in any way that would feel natural is intimidating at best.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 26, 2023 12:00 pm

BlueChi wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:50 am
JulieYBM wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:10 pm I mean, it's one thing to toss in a random note of "Oh, she's got martial artists students now!" and another thing entirely to actually tell her story. Seeing is believing, as they say. She's ultimately as disregarded and alien to the story as she was during the original 1984 comic series, only now with slightly less overt misogyny.
At this point you're asking for Dragon Ball to not be Dragon Ball and switch genres.
I'd love for a slice-of-life DB spinoff, don't get me wrong, but it's pretty silly to complain that a battle shonen manga isn't showing us the daily struggles of a tertiary character's professional achievements. .
Exactly how is that switching genres?


Oh wow seeing the wife of one of the most important (and occasionally main) characters teach a martial arts class? In a martial arts comic? What a dramatic genre shift!

And Dragon Ball Super was already by far the most slice of life-y Dragon Ball series.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by BlueChi » Fri May 26, 2023 12:06 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:00 pm Exactly how is that switching genres?


Oh wow seeing the wife of one of the most important (and occasionally main) characters teach a martial arts class? In a martial arts comic? What a dramatic genre shift!

And Dragon Ball Super was already by far the most slice of life-y Dragon Ball series.
Don't argue in bad faith, you disclosed earlier that if Super were to show a glimpse of that, it'd be considered as 'table scraps'.
It's pretty clear you want Videl to have a much bigger spotlight, and honestly, so do I.

But that is best done in a spinoff, there is no precedent for either the manga or the anime to completely veer course into the daily routine of a tertiary character for a prolonged period of time.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 26, 2023 12:16 pm

BlueChi wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:06 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:00 pm Exactly how is that switching genres?


Oh wow seeing the wife of one of the most important (and occasionally main) characters teach a martial arts class? In a martial arts comic? What a dramatic genre shift!

And Dragon Ball Super was already by far the most slice of life-y Dragon Ball series.
Don't argue in bad faith, you disclosed earlier that if Super were to show a glimpse of that, it'd be considered as 'table scraps'.
It's not arguing in bad faith. Your argument that showing Videl teach martial arts would be a dramatic genre shift is just a terrible nonsense argument.


Also reading is fundamental.

BootyCheeksJohnson- At least Super Hero said she teaches martial arts

Julie- Show don't tell

BootyCheeksJohnson- Yeah it doesn't fix anything I'm just trying to find something because the series gives us nothing for Videl

Me (in response to BootyCheeksJohnson)- Sometimes you have to settle for table scraps.


In no way is that saying "They shouldn't show Videl teaching martial arts" its just being sympathetic to BCJ plight in trying to find something in a series that is content in providing nothing (in regards to Videl being anything but Toriyama homemaker #45543)



But that is best done in a spinoff, there is no precedent for either the manga or the anime to completely veer course into the daily routine of a tertiary character for a prolonged period of time.

Who said anything about a prolonged period of time? We got to see Krillin be a cop. We got to see Tenshinhan teach at his dojo. In Z we got to see Yamcha play baseball. But we can't see Videl teach her karate class because ummm uh ummmm?

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by BlueChi » Fri May 26, 2023 12:22 pm

Reading is indeed fundamental, which is why you should read Julie's posts stating she wants Videl to have a much bigger spotlight.
I'm pretty sure no one here is against a glimpse into Videl's life, most of us would welcome that. But that is not what Julie, and you by extension, have been asking for, and I don't see the need to pretend that suddenly you're fine with the 'table scraps' when we have 16 pages displaying the fact you want a substantial spotlight on a character that has lost a lot of relevance.

There is a female DB character with an enormous amount of potential, even for a potential main character slot.
Her name is Pan.

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