It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

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Yuji
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Yuji » Fri May 05, 2023 11:34 am

Bulma has never been only a bystander, even in the original series. Even after having a kid with Vegeta, she's active in the Cell arc creating the time machine, the remote, fixing #16; and the Boo arc by gathering the dragon balls and wishing for the people Vegeta killed to be revived.

#18 likewise plays a role in the Boo arc by being the one to win the tournament the arc set out. She doesn't play a role in the world-saving action proper, but her main interest is money, not fighting strong people.

Bulma and 18 go on to play significant roles in Super both outside of being mothers. Bulma furthers the plot multiple times and 18 is an important fighter in the ToP and Moro arc. You've mentioned her staying behind as a reference to RF I'm guessing, but she's been in the frontlines multiple times already.

Videl is truly the only main female character that just becomes a housewife and not much else, and that's mostly a product of Super. In the original series we don't see much of her post-dating Gohan to see whether or not she'd fall into that role. And sure you can criticize Super for how it treated Videl, but then you're neglecting how it treats the other female characters. It seems she's more of a one-off rather than part of a pattern.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Zephyr » Fri May 05, 2023 11:54 am

Yuji wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 11:02 amAnd the male characters like Yamcha and Tenshinhan are relegated to loser loners with no life. If you're not a combatant or a character Toriyama is currently interested in using, then you'll fall to the wayside. Female characters becoming mothers serves as a more grounded and realistic reason for their passivity than just outright quitting.

In general, I don't think Toriyama is interested in writing female characters. He's a man writing for boys and he doesn't purport to be an amazing writer who can tap into the experience of people from all walks of life. If he's interested in writing about male characters then let him. Making female characters mothers is stereotypical but it's also what happens to, like, 99.9% of women in real life to begin with. It's hardly a bad example to be setting.
Yeah, both male and female characters fall out of relevance. However, while plenty of male characters stay relevant, pretty much no female characters do.

Yeah, it's a story about fighting, but women can and do fight too, both in real life and in Dragon Ball. Chichi, #18, and Videl are all introduced as characters who either can fight, do fight, or are deeply interested in fighting. There's no reason why they couldn't have kept up in strength had Toriyama wanted them to; that Toriyama didn't want to is the point of contention here. Yes, Bulma and #18 still play some narrative role outside of combat, but combat is the main focus of the story.

However realistic and grounded it might be for a woman to become a passive mother, that doesn't really matter. Dragon Ball is a gag fantasy story at its core, realism comes and goes at the author's whims. Said whims are the point of contention here. I'm also not sure about that "99.9% of women become mothers in real life" statistic. It sounds made up and false, but I could be wrong. Either way, a great many women do not want to become mothers, my wife included.

With regards to what is and is not "a bad example to be setting", there is indeed nothing wrong with depicting women becoming mothers; that is indeed a thing that happens all the time, and is in fact why anyone is here talking about this at all. That said, when you write all of your female characters as doing this, it sends a message, whether intended or not. Children learn things from the art they consume, whether they or the creator of said art intends this or not. Children are always learning, even when not being deliberately taught. The way that life and society are depicted in stories helps, alongside their real-life experiences, to shape the way they see the world. Certain expectations get created, particularly when certain people are depicted as doing specific things and going down specific paths in life, that this is indeed how the real world works.

When someone doesn't get out and socialize with members of certain groups very often, but has seen members of these groups depicted in stories a certain way, then the depictions in these stories will have an overwhelmingly stronger influence on their expectations for interactions with members of these groups. When stories by many different storytellers depict members of these groups in the same way, if not very similar, then these expectations are further reinforced. If you're a boy growing up in a society where most stories aimed at boys depict women as naturally inclined to become docile and demure housewives, and you don't really interact with many girls your age and hear about what they want and expect out of life, then your expectations with women are going to be a certain way, and won't likely be challenged by real life experiences. Until later, of course. You might be appalled to learn 10 years down the line that your girlfriend wants a career instead of being a housewife, or 20 years down the line that your wife doesn't want to have children. Depending on the person, they might react to that knowledge bitterly, and even violently.

And then there's the effect this has on young girls and women. After all, not everyone reading a boy's magazine is going to be a boy. Some will be men. Some will be women. Some will be girls. And as a girl, if you see women in stories overwhelmingly depicted in a certain way, then you might come to have the expectation that this is simply the only option for you. Some girls go through life not realizing that certain career paths are even an option for them, because they are depicted as ones for boys or for men. The Society of Women Engineers (SWE) was founded 1950 for the purpose advocating for more women getting into the engineering. To mention my wife, again, when she was in highschool SWE visited her campus during a robotics class she was in. Prior to this, engineering had never crossed her mind as a viable career path, because she is a woman. Now? She has a mechatronics engineering degree and works a product support engineer with a tech company.

Saying to "let" Toriyama do anything is strange, as if anyone here is in a position to dictate what he does and how he does things. Yes, he has his interests and his strengths, but he also has a certain picture of a woman's role in society and he has his weaknesses. This picture, and these weaknesses, are entirely acceptable objects of criticism.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 05, 2023 12:00 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 11:34 am Bulma has never been only a bystander, even in the original series. Even after having a kid with Vegeta, she's active in the Cell arc creating the time machine, the remote, fixing #16; and the Boo arc by gathering the dragon balls and wishing for the people Vegeta killed to be revived.
The issue is again Bulma really doesn't do much in the Boo arc by which point she's settled into her role as wife and mother. The only thing you point to is gathering dragon balls which kind of became the minor characters lot in life by Z.
#18 likewise plays a role in the Boo arc by being the one to win the tournament the arc set out. She doesn't play a role in the world-saving action proper, but her main interest is money, not fighting strong people.
18 has the unfortunate circumstance of coming in to late to the story to be much use as a combatant. Doesn't make the fact that she's still ultimately just Krillin's prize for being such a swell guy less of an issue

And also its just the wider picture here

Chi Chi only ever wanting to be a wife and mother on its own isn't bad.

Bulma eventually having Vegeta's children and marrying him on its own isn't bad

18 marrying Krillin and having Marron on its own isn't bad

But they all become wife and mothers. There is no significant female character who has no interest in romance or a female character who is interested and never gets married. You used Yamcha and Tenshinhan as examples, but there is far more variance with the male characters. Lunch is the only one that doesn't get married and have children, she gets completely written out instead. Plus the aforementioned housekeeper role when she was in the manga.
Videl is truly the only main female character that just becomes a housewife and not much else, and that's mostly a product of Super. In the original series we don't see much of her post-dating Gohan to see whether or not she'd fall into that role. And sure you can criticize Super for how it treated Videl, but then you're neglecting how it treats the other female characters. It seems she's more of a one-off rather than part of a pattern.
Let's completely disregard Super for a sec.

This is Videl's character arc in the original story.


Introduced as a tomboy who fights crime, is stronger than her dad, and mouths off to Gohan and then bullies Gohan into entering into the tournament and teaching her how to fly

Gets a brutal beatdown from Spopvitch just to motivate Gohan's character

Spends the rest of the Boo arc crying over Gohan and then they get married in the epilogue. Yay!

I don't expect Videl to trade blows with Majin Boo but there's no reason she has to have her last showcase as a fighter be getting knocked around so she can learn her place.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Yuji » Fri May 05, 2023 12:19 pm

Zephyr wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 11:54 am Yeah, both male and female characters fall out of relevance. However, while plenty of male characters stay relevant, pretty much no female characters do.
There are precisely four mainstay male characters that don't fall to the wayside by the time the original series ends. That's Goku, the main character; Vegeta, the main character's rival; Gohan, the main character's son; and only arguably Piccolo, considering he's much of a bystander by the Boo arc already. In a series with twenty male characters for every one female, I'm not sure I can argue that there's an intentional disparaging of female fighters in favour of male fighters when only 3-4 longtime characters survive the powercreep by the time everything is over.

You can argue that maybe the series should have introduced more female characters, but again I argue that the author is a man writing for boys in a boys' magazine. The male characters are supposed to be the focus because they're the target for relatability.
Yeah, it's a story about fighting, but women can and do fight too, both in real life and in Dragon Ball. Chichi, #18, and Videl are all introduced as characters who either can fight, do fight, or are deeply interested in fighting. There's no reason why they couldn't have kept up in strength had Toriyama wanted them to; that Toriyama didn't want to is the point of contention here. Yes, Bulma and #18 still play some narrative role outside of combat, but combat is the main focus of the story.
Sure, like there's no reason Kuririn, or Yajirobe, or Karin, or Roshi, or Gyuumao, or Yamcha, or Namu, or whoever else couldn't have kept up. It's easy to focus on the female characters when there are so few of them, but like I said above, I don't think there's any intentional targetting at play here.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not interested in discussing broader social influences. I think that discussion is boring and played out because there's no tangible progress to be made in having it. Dragon Ball can reinforce stereotypes that some groups of people may resent but it also has been influenced by them to begin with and created within a society that accepts them.

A little girl won't find herself discouraged from being an astronaut by seeing her favourite character Bulma becoming a housewife, nor will a grown man beat his wife for not wanting children because he saw his favourite character Goku start a family. People's ideologies and philosophies are a result of a lifetime of experiences. The degree of unconscious influence Dragon Ball may have on people's actions is so miniscule that it's not worth arguing over. There are thousands of variables at play here that dictate social normals and standards, Dragon Ball is a piece of a complex puzzle we can't hope to dismantle. I don't blame art for functioning within the social norms it was created in, just as I don't blame people for buying clothes made in sweatshops.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Zephyr » Fri May 05, 2023 12:40 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:19 pmAs for the rest of your post, I'm not interested in discussing broader social influences. I think that discussion is boring and played out because there's no tangible progress to be made in having it. Dragon Ball can reinforce stereotypes that some groups of people may resent but it also has been influenced by them to begin with and created within a society that accepts them.

A little girl won't find herself discouraged from being an astronaut by seeing her favourite character Bulma becoming a housewife, nor will a grown man beat his wife for not wanting children because he saw his favourite character Goku start a family. People's ideologies and philosophies are a result of a lifetime of experiences. The degree of unconscious influence Dragon Ball may have on people's actions is so miniscule that it's not worth arguing over. There are thousands of variables at play here that dictate social normals and standards, Dragon Ball is a piece of a complex puzzle we can't hope to dismantle. I don't blame art for functioning within the social norms it was created in, just as I don't blame people for buying clothes made in sweatshops.
If you're not interested in discussing broad social influences, then you probably don't want to make claims about what is and is not a bad example to set. Such claims invite the discussion.

It's not about Dragon Ball alone, obviously. That has been clarified countless times in the several dozen threads talking about the kinds of social examples Dragon Ball sets. It's about how Dragon Ball is one of many stories reinforcing a specific form of social organization, and what the consequences are of all of them working in tandem. That Dragon Ball specifically does this is not the end of the world, but the fact that it is one of countless stories reinforcing certain norms is at least worth pointing out and discussing.

Yeah, art is shaped by the norms of the society in which it is created, but it in turn helps to influence the social norms. It's a reciprocal process. You can pretend that "we can't hope to dismantle" this "complex puzzle", but I assure you that people have been working on this for thousands of years and there is a wealth of valuable and instructive research and literature on the matter.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Yuji » Fri May 05, 2023 12:53 pm

Individually, it doesn't set a bad example. You agreed as much.

We can't hope to dismantle it here, on Kanzenshuu. This is probably the best place to discuss Dragon Ball on the internet but it's still not an academic workspace. What do we exactly achieve by circlejerking around on this forum about how Dragon Ball is one of millions of works of art that reinforces certain social examples?

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 05, 2023 1:23 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:53 pm Individually, it doesn't set a bad example. You agreed as much.

We can't hope to dismantle it here, on Kanzenshuu. This is probably the best place to discuss Dragon Ball on the internet but it's still not an academic workspace. What do we exactly achieve by circlejerking around on this forum about how Dragon Ball is one of millions of works of art that reinforces certain social examples?
Why does acknowledging and discussing Dragon Ball's shortcomings when it comes to gender dynamics have any less relevance than any of the other things that are discussed on here?

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Zephyr » Fri May 05, 2023 2:52 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:53 pmWe can't hope to dismantle it here, on Kanzenshuu. This is probably the best place to discuss Dragon Ball on the internet but it's still not an academic workspace. What do we exactly achieve by circlejerking around on this forum about how Dragon Ball is one of millions of works of art that reinforces certain social examples?
Nobody is forcing you to participate in these discussions.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Yuji » Fri May 05, 2023 3:42 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 1:23 pm
Yuji wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:53 pm Individually, it doesn't set a bad example. You agreed as much.

We can't hope to dismantle it here, on Kanzenshuu. This is probably the best place to discuss Dragon Ball on the internet but it's still not an academic workspace. What do we exactly achieve by circlejerking around on this forum about how Dragon Ball is one of millions of works of art that reinforces certain social examples?
Why does acknowledging and discussing Dragon Ball's shortcomings when it comes to gender dynamics have any less relevance than any of the other things that are discussed on here?
The other discussions don't pretend like they're anything more than anonymous people talking about what they like and dislike about a cartoon. These discussions always have a pretentious, self-righteous, armchair activist, undertone of "we must do better!" without a hint of self-awareness.

@Zephyr, I think it's interesting to discuss the role female characters play in Dragon Ball - just as any other character - I just dislike the moralism that these discussions inevitably devolve into. Want to talk about how Videl was poorly utilized as a character? Fine, I'm all game. Notice how the initial post was exactly that, but the thread is soon hijacked by needless, generic and superficial social commentary that has been circlejerked ad nauseam around this forum.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by VegettoEX » Fri May 05, 2023 3:51 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:42 pm Notice how the initial post was exactly that, but the thread is soon hijacked by needless, generic and superficial social commentary that has been circlejerked ad nauseam around this forum.
Seems to me it was "hijacked" by a random new user who necroposted in an otherwise dead two-year-old thread specifically to cause issues, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Yuji » Fri May 05, 2023 3:58 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:51 pm
Yuji wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:42 pm Notice how the initial post was exactly that, but the thread is soon hijacked by needless, generic and superficial social commentary that has been circlejerked ad nauseam around this forum.
Seems to me it was "hijacked" by a random new user who necroposted in an otherwise dead two-year-old thread specifically to cause issues, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best.
The social discussion was going on before the necropost (starting on page 2), regardless of the new user's reactionary language.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri May 05, 2023 4:20 pm

I wouldn't say it's circle-jerking, but I do agree the social problems aspect of DB, or most shounen series, has had all of what has needed to be said. Not to say it shouldn't be talked about, or I am against people or myself talking about it, or that Dragon Ball exists in a world where certain societal norms didn't effect it...it's just not that type of series where it's so prominent it's an issue, and there's only so much to talk about with the fact it was a boys comic from the 80s. I guess the dirty stuff I would say is like, not unique to DB but definitely is like, a problem and interesting to talk about, but I just don't think there's a lot to be said about how DB, unique to itself, has dealt with stuff like gender. With how women are depicted in stories for boys, or their roles in Eastern stories, or stories written by men, or whatever, sure, there's a lot to be talked about and it's a very meaningful thing, but with DB ? I mean besides the dirty humor, I just don't see it, not to say stories for boys shouldn't strive to have better female characters, or show femininity in a positive light, but that is geuninely such a global issue and has been for like centuries, that, talking about in a Dragon Ball only context, only so much can be said.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 05, 2023 4:42 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 4:20 pm I wouldn't say it's circle-jerking, but I do agree the social problems aspect of DB, or most shounen series, has had all of what has needed to be said. Not to say it shouldn't be talked about, or I am against people or myself talking about it, or that Dragon Ball exists in a world where certain societal norms didn't effect it...it's just not that type of series where it's so prominent it's an issue, and there's only so much to talk about with the fact it was a boys comic from the 80s. I guess the dirty stuff I would say is like, not unique to DB but definitely is like, a problem and interesting to talk about, but I just don't think there's a lot to be said about how DB, unique to itself, has dealt with stuff like gender. With how women are depicted in stories for boys, or their roles in Eastern stories, or stories written by men, or whatever, sure, there's a lot to be talked about and it's a very meaningful thing, but with DB ? I mean besides the dirty humor, I just don't see it, not to say stories for boys shouldn't strive to have better female characters, or show femininity in a positive light, but that is geuninely such a global issue and has been for like centuries, that, talking about in a Dragon Ball only context, only so much can be said.
Sure, but there's only so much that can be said about "Are the new Super Saiyan designs in the modern era lazy" "Has GT been vindicated by the lukewarm reception of Super?" "What is canon?" "Is the series justified in keeping Goku as the lead or should Dragon Ball pass the torch or focus on being an ensemble?" and those topics pop up again and again.

I don't think anyone is legitimately expecting some kind of social change by criticizing how Dragon Ball handles women, lgbt, and racial minority characters but that doesn't mean people shouldn't discuss them on a Dragon Ball discussion forum. It's as fair game as anything else.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Majin Buu » Fri May 05, 2023 5:18 pm

Reactionary troll necroposting aside.....

I read something about Superhero the other day that said Colonel Violet is implied to be Magenta's mother. When I read that I thought to myself "If you're a woman in Dragon Ball, you're ultimately a potential incubator for future new characters and not even minor female characters are exempt from this".

Hell, I wouldn't put it past Toriyama to suddenly reveal that Baba is a mom if he can get a new character out of it (and a laugh, I could see him doing that just for a laugh).

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri May 05, 2023 5:43 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 4:42 pm

Sure, but there's only so much that can be said about "Are the new Super Saiyan designs in the modern era lazy" "Has GT been vindicated by the lukewarm reception of Super?" "What is canon?" "Is the series justified in keeping Goku as the lead or should Dragon Ball pass the torch or focus on being an ensemble?" and those topics pop up again and again.

I don't think anyone is legitimately expecting some kind of social change by criticizing how Dragon Ball handles women, lgbt, and racial minority characters but that doesn't mean people shouldn't discuss them on a Dragon Ball discussion forum. It's as fair game as anything else.
I don't really disagree with either of your points, especially the former lol, but I'm just saying that I think I can see where people are coming from, and that sometimes, I definitely get it. I know it's a bit deeper then that for some people, who just don't like to see those topics brought up at all, but I do get it.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 05, 2023 6:00 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 5:18 pm Reactionary troll necroposting aside.....

I read something about Superhero the other day that said Colonel Violet is implied to be Magenta's mother. ".
Look, I know all the best stuff with Violet was anime only and that's what's informing my perception of the character and the counter argument to what I'm about say is "That wasn't in the manga" but fuck it

No, god, no. Violet robbed Commander Red blind the first chance she got and was only involved with the Red Ribbon army for money. Even if any theoretical relationship that was business transactional occurred aint no way Violet carried any potential pregnancy from that to term. Girl is definitely a " my pets are my children" type,.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Mireya » Fri May 05, 2023 8:45 pm

It doesn't matter too much to me. It's a story made by a guy in the 90s, written for boys, so if he thought having mostly male characters as the badasses would get the point accross better, that's totally his right. Maybe it does indirectly show some kind of predisposition from the author in regards to roles, maybe, but it's not a big deal, and it's not like anyone in the series is enforcing the role of housewife to the women by saying it's their place. Chi-Chi seems like the one who went the wrong trail to me, she bacame an annoying mother and kinda forced. Videl in the original story had a strong personality, was stronger than her dead and has shown bravery multiple times. Super I may agree, but I don't care for Super, speaking only about Z. 18 humiliated Vegeta once and had her strength recognized by Vegeta and Trunks, and Bulma is a genius, there'd be no story without her. So their roles in such aspect don't concern me.

What indeed seems a problem was Roshi's disingenuous sexual jokes at the start, wanting to peek on a 16 years old girl and abuse her by blackmailing, and that being treated in a comedic tune, not to mention flat out harassing women by touching their asses and being vanglorized by many men back in the days. Those were old times, yeah, but that's the dark aspect.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Zephyr » Mon May 08, 2023 11:37 am

Yuji wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:42 pmThe other discussions don't pretend like they're anything more than anonymous people talking about what they like and dislike about a cartoon. These discussions always have a pretentious, self-righteous, armchair activist, undertone of "we must do better!" without a hint of self-awareness.

@Zephyr, I think it's interesting to discuss the role female characters play in Dragon Ball - just as any other character - I just dislike the moralism that these discussions inevitably devolve into. Want to talk about how Videl was poorly utilized as a character? Fine, I'm all game. Notice how the initial post was exactly that, but the thread is soon hijacked by needless, generic and superficial social commentary that has been circlejerked ad nauseam around this forum.
I feel like I'm wasting my time replying to you again. I'll try one more time. I'm trying to my best here to not be rude.

A thread can house multiple different conversations. If one of them doesn't interest you, you're not obligated to participate in that one. Yet, you decided to participate, before insisting that these matters don't interest you, and then continued to speak on them from a clearly ill-informed place. I don't think you should talk about what is and isn't "needless", or what is and is not "superficial".

Will people who don't want to get into the nitty-gritty of a topic please stop calling those who do "pretentious"? Will people who don't want to think very deeply about ethics please stop calling those who do "moralizing" or "self-righteous"?
Soppa Saia People wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 4:20 pmI do agree the social problems aspect of DB, or most shounen series, has had all of what has needed to be said.
I do think this is fair, though. These sorts of topics have come up quite a bit in the last several years, and pretty much everything that could be said has been said. On the other hand, though, I have to agree with MasenkoHA that the same can be said for just about every other topic here. However, nobody sticks around here forever, and there are always new users coming in. There will always be people who have not yet had these conversations. Every "was Gohan Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabura" thread is (possibly) somebody's first. :lol:

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Yuji » Mon May 08, 2023 1:00 pm

Zephyr wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 11:37 am I feel like I'm wasting my time replying to you again. I'll try one more time. I'm trying to my best here to not be rude.

A thread can house multiple different conversations. If one of them doesn't interest you, you're not obligated to participate in that one. Yet, you decided to participate, before insisting that these matters don't interest you, and then continued to speak on them from a clearly ill-informed place. I don't think you should talk about what is and isn't "needless", or what is and is not "superficial".

Will people who don't want to get into the nitty-gritty of a topic please stop calling those who do "pretentious"? Will people who don't want to think very deeply about ethics please stop calling those who do "moralizing" or "self-righteous"?
It's difficult to ignore when a) it feels like most threads with a hint of potential social analysis are hijacked to focus exclusively on it, and b) the users doing the social analysis are projecting their morals onto the artists or other users and demonizing those who don't agree, or don't care to discuss it. How can you discuss anything else in this thread the moment people start claiming the series is mysoginistic? That's where the focus will inherently be whether we want it to or not.

Maybe you don't feel the same because you're largely interested in these discussions to begin with, but to those who've had their share of them, this is what's happening and it's, at the bare minimum, annoying for those simply looking to have some light-hearted conversation about their favourite comic series. I've discussed intersectionality for over half a decade in my university. As interesting as it is to discuss, I don't need to bring it into every Dragon Ball conversation I have off-campus too.

I'm not one to tell people what they can and can't discuss but personally I don't see any difference between what these threads end up becoming and what battle power threads used to be in the 00s and 10s - overpowering the rest of the discourse and hostile to those that want to discuss something else or simply have a differing opinion. At a certain point battle power-oriented fans gained a bad reputation for themselves essentially because they wouldn't shut the hell up, how's this any different?

If you can call me ill-informed, I think I have a right to call people pretentious, moralizing and self-righteous. What I'm criticizing is the compulsive and obsessive need to practice social analysis on every single thread pertaining to certain characters, not the isolated interests one may have pertaining to systemic injustices and intersectional analysis. One can almost predict how certain threads will go by the subject matter. There are certain members on this forum who can't go a single post without projecting their political leanings onto a subject.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Mon May 08, 2023 3:54 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 1:00 pmAt a certain point battle power-oriented fans gained a bad reputation for themselves essentially because they wouldn't shut the hell up, how's this any different?
Because media representation of women, queer people and BIPOC folks is actually important and battle powers are a dumb little world-building thing the author regrets creating.


I recognize the irony of someone who has failed to take her own advice many a time over the eighteen years she has been a member of this forum but has it not ever occured to you that you could just not reply to a thread? I've been working very hard on not doing that unless I think I'm serving a good cause. It's cut my stress down remarkably well. In fact, I'm kicking myself for being curious enough to remove you from my ignore list long enough to read this post. :rofl:
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