Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

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Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by MajinPopo » Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:39 pm

I've posted a recent comment on this subject, but figured it's interesting enough for a thread discussion

So, in Super we see Gohan and Piccolo re-training together to get themselves back up to scratch for the Tournament of Power. However, it seems like in terms of technique and advancement they've both sort of hit a wall and can't progress. Similar situations have been acknowledged with other characters.

I don't think it's just because of them getting used to peace time. I honestly think that Gohan and Piccolo are two characters trying hard to define themselves outside of their lineage and expectations thrust upon them. For Gohan it can be the adoption of a Superhero persona. For Piccolo it could be "playing Uncle Piccolo" for Pan.

However, this led to a neglecting of Martial Arts training. The process of constantly bettering yourself in the Martial Arts.

I don't think it was specifically the lack of training that affected them, it was that when they started training again, there was an obvious "wall" that they couldn't get past (which led to some pretty lame moments in the ToP).

My reasoning is that Gohan and Piccolo both fell back into the familiar Demon-Style training techniques, which is natural and comfortable for them. Remember that Piccolo specifically marked Gohan with a Demon symbol on his gi.

While they do improve and do master some training techniques that they missed in the never ending gauntlet of events that followed their initial training sessions in the Saiyan arc, they're still fighting with Demon-style techniques like Masenko etc.

Why is this a problem? Because of the natural Toriyama subversion. The kid marked "Demon" is the nicest most well adjusted character despite the traumatic life. The Demonic teacher is now the doting uncle.

They can't progress any further because at this point in their lives, the arbitrary demon classification is obsolete and doesn't reflect them as people. Two essentially good-hearted characters can't fully use an array of Demon attacks, and can't progress with Demon-style combat training because it runs counter to their nature.

This is probably why Gohan has needed characters like Guru and Elder Kai to unlock his latent potential. He simply CAN'T do it naturally with the style he fights in, as well as lacking the drive to do so.

With this theory in mind, and considering Gohan and Piccolo Jr's relatively close ages, I would like to see them abandon a traditional Master/Student relationship and have them study under a more traditional God or Master (that is, one without the Toriyama-esque vices like lust and gluttony) as equals. I'm talking someone outside of Whis, as I feel like he's not entirely noble, and has many character flaws himself.

I feel like the best way for them to progress in strength/form changes/techniques is to simply abandon an obsolete form of training and find a more spiritually pure way of training. It works as character development and also reduces this weird "cardboard" period of Dragon Ball where characters outside of Goku and Vegeta aren't allowed to progress beyond their marketable images.

Thoughts?

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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by BWri » Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:20 pm

This is a fantastic post but I don't personally see them as hitting a wall. They are as strong as they've ever been and this is without God of Destruction or Angel training. They are only a few steps behind Goku and Vegeta, and that's without any new transformations. Gohan himself, has developed new defensive techniques such as his shield. And Piccolo's shattered the limits of his Beam Cannon to defeat opponents who are significantly stronger than himself (at least in the anime).

If anything, what's holding them back is that they're idiots. Gohan can't effectively manage his time and doesn't value his own strength as important. And Piccolo is too prideful to seek further guidance from King Kai, the Yardrats, or Whis. Piccolo also seems to forget that he gains the most strength when he trains with others at his level or above, so it makes sense now that his training with Gohan again resulted in the biggest strength increase of his life just like it did when he trained with Goku. The fact that neither of them are training with Goku whenever he gets back to Earth is also fairly shortsighted and foolish. They should be constantly picking his brain whenever he's available for various tips on things he's picked up over the years or from Whis.

Me, emperior, Lionel, and Koitsukai shared some opinions on Kaioshin based training and powers for Gohan and Piccolo (and Trunks) viewtopic.php?f=25&t=46524&p=1710122&hi ... n#p1710122 on that thread.
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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by MajinPopo » Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:30 pm

Interesting and well reasoned response!

Do you think that Piccolo's increased hesitance to train or fight with Goku comes from the absorption of Kami?

Kami was good natured but was ultimately scared and hesitant, both of his own demon half, and the decision to act. I feel like the absorption of Kami is different than the absorption of Nail, since they are essentially two halves of the same being (with some fudging), and that it had a profound impact on Piccolo far more than a power boost.

It feels like Piccolo's passion for fighting only comes out when he's in "Gohan's Teacher Mode" these days.

Your point about simple "stupidity" isn't inaccurate however.

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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by BWri » Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:42 pm

MajinPopo wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:30 pm Interesting and well reasoned response!

Do you think that Piccolo's increased hesitance to train or fight with Goku comes from the absorption of Kami?
Thanks! I do think to some degree that Kami has effected Piccolo's competitiveness. His drive to be the best was once up there with Goku and Vegeta's even after he was killed by Nappa.
Kami was good natured but was ultimately scared and hesitant, both of his own demon half, and the decision to act. I feel like the absorption of Kami is different than the absorption of Nail, since they are essentially two halves of the same being (with some fudging), and that it had a profound impact on Piccolo far more than a power boost.
I'm sure Kami's personality has had an impact on Piccolo's. Sometimes modern day Piccolo seems like a younger Kami.
It feels like Piccolo's passion for fighting only comes out when he's in "Gohan's Teacher Mode" these days.
That's part of it, but it is confirmed as of the Moro arc that he always trains fiercely. And if you look at his progress throughout Super, it shows. He never lost his passion for fighting and his power always grows proportionately. To us, it looks like he's stagnant or weak due to the level of the escalating encounters they all continue to face. But as I said above, it seems he's stopped trying to compete with absolute monsters on Goku and Vegeta's level, or he's simply accepted that he'll train at his own pace. It works for him as he's been able to outpace their base forms and he's even managed to outpace Gohan's SSJ and SSJ2 in the anime-verse.
Your point about simple "stupidity" isn't inaccurate however.
That's just how I see it. My main problem is with how the characters are written, but in-universe I can only see it as stupidity or oversight. I'm curious about your disagreement though. How would you define it?
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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by MajinPopo » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:49 pm

BWri wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:42 pm I'm curious about your disagreement though. How would you define it?
I was actually roughly agreeing. By saying it "isn't inaccurate" I'm saying that your take is fairly accurate.

In-universe it either has to be stupidity on their part or you extrapolate fanon and explain it away, which is kind of what I'm doing.

I'm not blind to the fact that I have a fan-brain that tries to explain away or rationalize things that bug me, that are more realistically explained as "the writers didn't give a shit".

But you do make a lot of good points about the training they did do. I suppose that in a series you spend so long with, where training would usually take long stretches of episodes, it feels like you don't really get to see characters train as much anymore even though narratively they are.

I mean, narratively Roshi trained off-screen quite a bit. But we didn't SEE it. That's why it was so jarring when he ass-pulled his sweet moves. The issue is that Gohan and Piccolo aren't generally weak characters being given a power boost, it seemed more like formerly great fighters wallowing in mediocrity.

I think maybe I wouldn't feel as I do, if I had experienced the Manga first, where things move more quickly. But I grew up on the anime where 5 minutes took twenty episodes. So to see quick one-off "training episodes", it just feels a little empty.

A huge part of the problem is Dragon Ball's nature as an ensemble type show. Narratively Goku tends to move onto bigger, better foes, but when enemies are befriended, they all become part of that "gang". Toriyama moves on from concepts quite quickly, but the characters remain in the story even when there's no actual forward narrative involving them. So they end up nerfing characters they don't want to use, but then making them train again because they're marketable, and then they end up in this weird limbo.

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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by Lionel » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:50 pm

What I would say is that Gohan and Piccolo, mostly the young adult half Saiyan, have found their lives perplexed by domestic human activities. Toriyama had elected around what may have been the Cell arc to project this dovish persona on Gohan and make him come out as being fundamentally opposed to life and death combat (the blood on his fist from pounding Sui to death must have dried by then). Whatever "academics" Gohan is engaged in shouldn't be so time consuming as to prohibit him from maintaining a work out regimen. Tenshinhan is a farmer who toils out in the fields but he's still able to make time for earnest training. Vegeta himself has a domestic life of his own in being with his wife and helping to raise his newborn daughter.

Piccolo shouldn't be so encumbered like Gohan. We've heard in interviews recently that he still engages in daily training like Goku and Vegeta. Unfortunately the efficiency of his methods don't appear to be so good but what's to expect when you're having to rely on transcendental and unorthodox methods like god ki and angelic mentorship to reach the new plateau of martial combat?

These two shouldn't be hampered by whatever goings-on they have in their personal lives. Vegeta was able to let go of his animosity and become an all around decent man at the Buu arc who acknowledges Goku for the strength he has but that hasn't stopped the Saiyan Prince from pushing onward to bigger and better things. To me I think it's just easier for Toyotaro to write for a two man act instead of the ensemble cast model that become so prototypical of Dragon Ball throughout the Z era.

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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by BWri » Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:58 pm

MajinPopo wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:49 pm I was actually roughly agreeing. By saying it "isn't inaccurate" I'm saying that your take is fairly accurate.
Sorry about that. Was reading too fast and doing too much as always. Even now, I'm bored at work and taking trips to the forums here.
I'm not blind to the fact that I have a fan-brain that tries to explain away or rationalize things that bug me, that are more realistically explained as "the writers didn't give a shit".
I'm the same way, until it goes too deep then I tap out because I know no one thought about it that deeply. I do like fan interpretations of these things. It does help me sleep at night, I won't lie :lol: As much as I like fan interpretations, I try not to get too attached.
But you do make a lot of good points about the training they did do. I suppose that in a series you spend so long with, where training would usually take long stretches of episodes, it feels like you don't really get to see characters train as much anymore even though narratively they are.
It's something of a missed opportunity IMO. Because there's tons of meat on the bone, so to speak, no matter what you do, but they've somehow chosen a path with no meat. You probably get where I'm going with that but I feel I have to explain that one a lil bit.

Training is vitally important to our main characters in some way, shape or form and its different for all of them but its vital to everything they do. With Goku and Vegeta, its obvious, but even with Gohan, it plays into his story arc but with him we're telling a different story, something more modern with him falling off the horse, so to speak. While I think Gohan's training journey could have used some more attention and emphasis, it's still a fairly good story at its core. Imagine if all the "Z fighters" got that sort of treatment. At least the ones that were vital to the ToP. Roshi would have been the best story IMO.

If you follow subtle context clues, Piccolo has something of a training arc in Super and it makes sense to me. If you ignore the wonky power scaling of the U6 arc, its clear that he's improved from RoF since he can fight an advanced form of Frost whereas Form 1 Frieza was a complete no go before. Then when he's told to his face that he doesn't stand a chance vs. Frost he goes out of his way to surprise Goku and force a draw. The anime presents an even more dramatic scenario. The embarassments he faced against Beerus, Frieza, and Frost motivated him to get even stronger than Gohan. He went from about as strong as Gohan's base to about as strong as Gohan's SSJ2. And this is a Gohan who was also kinda-sorta training. His motivation in the anime might have also been his death by Frieza's hand. Which again, is a great story to tell, but its only there if you put the pieces together yourself.
I mean, narratively Roshi trained off-screen quite a bit. But we didn't SEE it. That's why it was so jarring when he ass-pulled his sweet moves. The issue is that Gohan and Piccolo aren't generally weak characters being given a power boost, it seemed more like formerly great fighters wallowing in mediocrity.
I think this was true for much of Super but they seem to have been somewhat elevated these last few arcs. Ironically enough, thinking about things from an in-universe perspective has allowed me to respect the progress they have been making over what they haven't been. In isolation, they are still impressive characters. Gohan sometimes backtracks but he's more consistent in the manga at least. And I think Piccolo does really well for a character with no transformations or other hacks since the Cell arc. A lot of people disagree with me on this (but many also agree) but the way I see it, Piccolo is definitely as strong as a current Super Saiyan 3 if not stronger. That's a controversial read of the Moro arc, but that's how I see it unless something new contradicts that. But if this is the case, this Namekian, without a transformation went from base Gohan level in RoF to SSJ3 Goku level in only a few years. Even if you think he's only SSJ2 level, that's still an insane in-universe feat as it was a level of power that it took Goku and Vegeta nearly 7 years to surpass. And like you said before, him and Gohan are still so young so they have many more years to grow.
I think maybe I wouldn't feel as I do, if I had experienced the Manga first, where things move more quickly. But I grew up on the anime where 5 minutes took twenty episodes. So to see quick one-off "training episodes", it just feels a little empty.
Same, and my favorite episodes tended to be those very ones in Super. Episode 88 comes to mind as does Krillin's training journey.
A huge part of the problem is Dragon Ball's nature as an ensemble type show.

I've had to learn that it's not. It's really always been the Goku show. It does become more clear when you read the manga. For instance, Piccolo's epic fight with Frieza went by so fast in the manga. It felt like an afterthought, whereas the anime added a lot of extra choreography and sequences to it, such as the earth shattering suplex Piccolo uses towards the end. But even though I live with that truth now, I still find the best parts of DB are when it has that ensemble feel to it. When other characters have agency and are doing things and having cool fights. The anime really emphasized this is a good way. That's why I grew to love the side characters even more than Goku when I was younger. That's one of the main things I love about the Moro arc and the anime version of the Tournament of Power.
Narratively Goku tends to move onto bigger, better foes, but when enemies are befriended, they all become part of that "gang". Toriyama moves on from concepts quite quickly, but the characters remain in the story even when there's no actual forward narrative involving them. So they end up nerfing characters they don't want to use, but then making them train again because they're marketable, and then they end up in this weird limbo.
Well, it's gotten to the point where even I, longtime fan and advocate of these characters just want them to retire from the story. I see no reason to keep using an awesome character like Tien if he's just going to be a punching bag with very little other redeeming factors. I love these characters but I'd prefer to see them grow. Anytime I see them, it sort of breaks immersion for me in a myriad of ways. It's mainly with how Tien, Roshi, and Krillin are handled. Tien especially. Like this dude's training journey just does not matter. No matter what he does, he's in quicksand. And he's apparently just as consistent as Piccolo but the results just aren't there and his creativity took as nosedive. The fact that Krillin can stay ahead of him with no effort and Roshi can surpass him so easily just takes me out of it. I can't square that round hole with in-universe logic. And there is no attempt to even tell that story, but I would be very interested in seeing it.
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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by BWri » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:59 pm

Lionel wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:50 pm What I would say is that Gohan and Piccolo, mostly the young adult half Saiyan, have found their lives perplexed by domestic human activities. Toriyama had elected around what may have been the Cell arc to project this dovish persona on Gohan and make him come out as being fundamentally opposed to life and death combat (the blood on his fist from pounding Sui to death must have dried by then).

That's a fantastic point about Sui. I always had the impression that Gohan wasn't this pacificist that everyone made him out to be, then I remembered that the Garlic Jr. arc wasn't canon. With that omitted, Sui is his only kill before Cell and the Cell Jrs, aside from some wild animals possibly. Perhaps his killing of Sui traumatized him. There's no indication as far as I know, but maybe.
Whatever "academics" Gohan is engaged in shouldn't be so time consuming as to prohibit him from maintaining a work out regimen. Tenshinhan is a farmer who toils out in the fields but he's still able to make time for earnest training. Vegeta himself has a domestic life of his own in being with his wife and helping to raise his newborn daughter.

Gohan seems to have figured this out in the manga. Possibly during or after the U6 tournament. Possibly even before, since Goku may have caught him at the wrong time when recruiting him for it.
Piccolo shouldn't be so encumbered like Gohan. We've heard in interviews recently that he still engages in daily training like Goku and Vegeta.

He told Krillin as much during the Moro arc, confirming that from an in-universe standpoint.
Unfortunately the efficiency of his methods don't appear to be so good but what's to expect when you're having to rely on transcendental and unorthodox methods like god ki and angelic mentorship to reach the new plateau of martial combat?

Compared to Goku and Vegeta in Super no, but if you compare that same progress with characters from Z, you'd think they were a prodigies, which they are. Going from MSSJ to SSJ2 in 7 years was still a big deal during the final arc of Z. SSJ2 was a big hump that required intense training and Piccolo's casually reached that level only a few years after Goku and Vegeta and with no transformations of his own.
To me I think it's just easier for Toyotaro to write for a two man act instead of the ensemble cast model that become so prototypical of Dragon Ball throughout the Z era.
I think so too. But I also think that neither he nor his mentor, Toriyama-san, are able to balance many spinning plates. They, at least, don't seem interested in it.
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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:18 pm

I think Piccolo just didn't see the point of trying to compete with Kakarot and Vegeta and Gohan stepped away from training to be with his family.
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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by nickzambuto » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:42 pm

Piccolo has been making major gains this whole time and he is probably stronger than all forms of Boo by now.

He just can't keep up with the progression of the saiyans, who get strong way too quickly.

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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by Peach » Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:21 am

Gohan has never hit a wall. Just a few hours of training before the tournament of power put him on lower blue level.

What holds Gohan back is his personality and priorities.

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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by TobyS » Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:55 am

Honestly as of the Moro arc this isn't the case.
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He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by super michael » Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:01 pm

We know Namekians can outlive Saiyans, just look at Guru, Kami and King Piccolo they are older than Master Roshi who has been alive for 100s of years. Saiyans are only in their prime until in their 80 years.

Piccolo should train with Whis, Beerus and Yardrat.

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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by BWri » Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:05 pm

To put things in even more perspective post DBS: SH, with this arc being post Granolah arc that means that Gohan and Piccolo are likely near Granolah's level or surpassed it by the end of the movie which is wild because he's condensed a hundred and fifty additional years of training into his gains while Piccolo and Gohan are only in their twenties. By the time Piccolo is one hundred and fifty he'd be hundreds of times stronger than Whis at this rate unless he hits a hard cap.

If we go by, DBS: SH a majority of Piccolo's power seems to have been inaccessible due to lack of transformations. It's possibly why his SBC multiplier has been so godly in Super. I like this explanation. It lines up with the gains he's been making since the Cell arc which are consistent with Goku and Vegeta when discounting the raw power of SSJ2.

And Gohan's not capped anymore, thank goodness. He at least keeps himself in peak condition.
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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:31 pm

What wall?

Gohan pretty much reached Blue tier in less than 2 days and Piccolo can almost solo the entirety of Z after training with Gohan for that time.

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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:14 pm

I don't think Gohan has ever capped. He's always as strong as he in very short periods of time. He just doesn't train, which is the opposite of Piccolo. I don't think they should even be lumped together here at all.

Piccolo definitely ran into a wall before the new movie, however. It all traces back to the Cell Saga when he passed an offer to train a second year in the Rosat. He may train every day, and it allows him to surpass small flies like the rusty Gohan, Goten and Trunks, but just meditating by the river isn't gonna help him keep up with Goku and Vegeta.

Now that Piccolo has cheated his way into being on the upper ranks again, It's gonna be interesting to see how he tries to keep his position. But Gohan? He's a genetic freak, he only has to keep himself in shape to advance. Which is the big challenge for him, but I don't think he plans to adopt his dad's lifestyle anytime soon.
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Re: Logical reasoning for Piccolo and Gohan hitting a wall and not advancing with their training.

Post by Lionel » Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:01 pm

Over a year and a half since this topic was active. Yeah, I have watched Super Hero myself but it certainly lends some important developments to consider for Gohan and, perhaps more interestingly, Piccolo. Mindset is always going to be important when it comes to the further progression of strength as it takes a comprehending state of perception and the confidence that a greater level exists for one to firmly set out achieving it. When it comes to these two they used transformative methods to build their strength up towards achieving that plateau.

It's insane to take in the implications of how much of a leap these transformations afforded Gohan and Piccolo. How did they measure up beforehand? A lot of speculation as to how powerful exactly they had become during the Moro arc. I personally think they might have surpassed SSJ3 Goku's level and were positioned somewhere in the void between that level and SSJG. With the herculean orange form and the 'beast' form, they seem to have reached heights that might be comparable to Goku and Vegeta's god forms.

Who knows how much further Piccolo can progress. His potential was unleashed by Shenron and we can assume, I think, that the orange form is his variation of the 'way beyond your limits' permutation seen in other strength unlocking abilities like Babidi's magic and Elder Kaioshin's ritual. It's quite likely he could grow in strength even more and possibly gain another transformation but I wouldn't bet on him surpassing Goku and Vegeta ever again unless he received some critical development in his strength like through gaining some kind of equivalent of Ultra Instinct/Ultra Ego (maybe something having to do with creation and the Kaioshin as has been suggested before).

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