Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TKA
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:59 pm

Skar wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:01 pm Well he wasn't too far off since a version of Broly ended up being close to Beerus' power. I'm pretty sure Toriyama did design the original LSSJ Broly though. This treated as Toriyama's usual style now but it wasn't that common in the original series. I think that's why it was a subversion because it didn't happen that often.

Freeza came as a surprise since he was getting more monstrous in each transformation until his final form. Before him only villains with transformations were Oozaru Vegeta and monster Zarbon. Cell was becoming more human like after absorbing each cyborg but still intimidating. Fat Buu was unexpected that the ancient demon feared by the highest gods was a pink fat blob but stronger versions like South Kaioshin absorbed and Super Buu were still scarier looking and muscular.
It's not just transformations, my guy. Since the first chapter of Dragonball, Toriyama had the childlike, unassuming Goku beating the shit out of scary monsters that should be way stronger than him based on their appearance.

When it comes to villains, he had the neatly-dressed, calm and subdued Tao Paipai kill the much more muscular General Blue with just his tongue. Spike the Devilman was built up as the most dangerous, only to be supplanted by the more powerful, diminutive, unassuming old man, Gohan.

The first time in the manga where Toriyama set out to create a traditionally terrifying villain, without subverting expectations by having him be a chump, was King Piccolo.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

With all the villains up to that point, there was always something likable about them. So Demon King Piccolo was born from me trying to create a truly bad guy. That period was the most interesting to draw.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archiv ... -toriyama/

I thought of Piccolo first, and I wanted to draw him as a scary character,
Fast forward to the Saiyan saga, and we meet Nappa, Raditz and Vegeta. The most powerful member is the shortest one who didn't have bulging exposed muscles. Go to Namek and Frieza's strongest henchman (pre-Ginyus) is the pretty boy, Zarbon. Fast forward to transformations and it's the same dynamic.

Toriyama has a pretty clear pattern, my guy. You'd have to be blind or not looking to not see it.
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:49 pm "Would Toriyama do this" is not really the best measure to go by. Plenty of other creators have contributed to Dragon Ball, many of them skilled directors, writers or animators. If we cared about only doing things that Toriyama would then we wouldn't get the directing of Ueda Yoshihiro, Yama'uchi Shigeyasu, Nagamine Tatsuya, Nakamura Ryouta, Ishitani Megumi or the writing of Tomioka Atsuhiro.
"Would Toriyama do this" is absolutely the best mantra to go by when you start making Dragonball content. If you're not doing that, then go make your own series. You can add your own spin on things, and hopefully you do, but the foundation should probably be the fact that you're working on Dragonball.

And yes, I would be willing to throw out every name you listed there because what made me a Dragonball fan was reading the manga. Nothing else in this franchise even comes close to what Toriyama put on paper 30-40 years ago. It's why I don't get particularly defensive or judgmental about any other dragonball product—they're all just fun side content of varying quality. The original manga is where my fandom truly lies.

Also, you should generally aim to be like one of the greatest storytellers to ever live if you wanna be a storyteller. Even if you fall short of them, you'll still land pretty high up.
Geraldo wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:43 am At the end of the day, Not-Bojack had needlessly caused Not-Bujin to get killed. At least Not-Zangya and Not-Bido are alive and well.
Bojack, the Super Incredible Guy, showing up out of nowhere to kill Gas and the Heeters would've been even more funny than Frieza doing it since they're all barely reskinned versions of Bojack and his group.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:50 am I agree. There should be brave developments... for example Lucasfilm and Dave Filoni. I don't wanna glorify this man or give him bigger credit, as I am not in the camp of "Kathleen Kennedy sucks, they ruin my childhood, make Filoni president." schtick.
Filoni and Toyotaro are the same. They can produce content that's probably better than what most people who come to work on this established franchise can produce, but they fall unimaginably, indescribably short from the original creator. Filoni on his best day can't shine GL's boots, much like Toyotaro and Toriyama.

I just wish, like Star Wars, Dragonball at least had more than one writer who can produce quality. I'd rank James Luceno and Matt Stover lightyears beyond Filoni when it comes to creative talent and telling stories that have meaning and weight. It's a shame Toyotaro is the only person to work on this franchise in the past 30 years that can tell an entertaining, coherent Dragonball story.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:39 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:23 pm
This one cracks me up, the guy admits he is not even confident to give a forgettable character some harmless background on a fucking interview, not even on paper, (like Flake is going to be a recurring character or something lol) yet people will come down on him anyway, blaming every big revelation, they dislike, that shakes the franchise's bases, on the guy.
Like after that confession, or after the one about the nameks not being from Namek, how could I bring myself to believe he came up with the Bardock wish, for instance? and if he did, it was supported and approved by the big T. Yet he will get the ticket anyway.
Yeah exactly, Toriyama is complicit in every big change and revelation. People that have problems with the weird wishes, the Namekian retcons, Bardock's entire involvement, etc. (which are all understandable criticisms) can't solely blame Toyotaro for it all even if he did come up with some of it, as Toriyama still has to give the okay to everything. Hell, we've had confirmation that this arc had more direct input from Toriyama than the Moro arc, so there's a strong possibility that the entire bloated run-around with Gas was Toriyama's mandate.

On this side of the forum, I've noticed a particular cult-like idolatry towards Toriyama -- the man can literally do no wrong, so if something happens that's undesirable, there's always another scapegoat to blame... most often Toyotaro, but there's also Uchida, Shueisha, Toei, literally anyone else that can be conveniently blamed for a poor decision.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:17 pm

I think this bears repeating.

A bad arc is a bad arc, y'all. It doesn't matter who signed off on what, who approved what, who wrote what. I think's it's fair to say that this would be uncharacteristically subpar for Toriyama even if he was directly responsible for some of the worst writing in it, while also conceding that all creatives involved are ultimately responsible for their stuff.

Nobody gets Dragon Ball like Toriyama, but nobody's infallible either. That's fine. The best we can hope for is that the next mainline story improves, and that Toyotaro can present it in a better way too.

If we get anything like the Gas fight again, I'll peace out of the manga faster than Freeza dunked on the goons in this chapter.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:23 pm

I think this bears repeating.

A bad arc is a bad arc, y'all. It doesn't matter who signed off on what, who approved what, who wrote what. I think's it's fair to say that this would be uncharacteristically subpar for Toriyama even if he was directly responsible for some of the worst writing in it, while also conceding that all creatives involved are ultimately responsible for their stuff.

Nobody gets Dragon Ball like Toriyama, but nobody's infallible either. That's fine. The best we can hope for is that the next mainline story improves, and that Toyotaro can present it in a better way too.

If we get anything like the Gas fight again, I'll peace out of the manga faster than Freeza dunked on the goons in this chapter.
I respect that approach to it, honestly. No excuses made for anyone.
"Would Toriyama do this" is not really the best measure to go by. Plenty of other creators have contributed to Dragon Ball, many of them skilled directors, writers or animators. If we cared about only doing things that Toriyama would then we wouldn't get the directing of Ueda Yoshihiro, Yama'uchi Shigeyasu, Nagamine Tatsuya, Nakamura Ryouta, Ishitani Megumi or the writing of Tomioka Atsuhiro.
"Would Toriyama do this" is absolutely the best mantra to go by when you start making Dragonball content. If you're not doing that, then go make your own series. You can add your own spin on things, and hopefully you do, but the foundation should probably be the fact that you're working on Dragonball.

And yes, I would be willing to throw out every name you listed there because what made me a Dragonball fan was reading the manga. Nothing else in this franchise even comes close to what Toriyama put on paper 30-40 years ago. It's why I don't get particularly defensive or judgmental about any other dragonball product—they're all just fun side content of varying quality. The original manga is where my fandom truly lies.

Also, you should generally aim to be like one of the greatest storytellers to ever live if you wanna be a storyteller. Even if you fall short of them, you'll still land pretty high up.
Sometimes in real life situations, I think to myself, "what would Cliff Richard Toriyama Akira do?"

What can I say, he's someone who lives his life in a way we should all aspire to.
Last edited by LoganForkHands73 on Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:24 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:59 pmIt's not just transformations, my guy. Since the first chapter of Dragonball, Toriyama had the childlike, unassuming Goku beating the shit out of scary monsters that should be way stronger than him based on their appearance.

When it comes to villains, he had the neatly-dressed, calm and subdued Tao Paipai kill the much more muscular General Blue with just his tongue. Spike the Devilman was built up as the most dangerous, only to be supplanted by the more powerful, diminutive, unassuming old man, Gohan.

The first time in the manga where Toriyama set out to create a traditionally terrifying villain, without subverting expectations by having him be a chump, was King Piccolo.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

With all the villains up to that point, there was always something likable about them. So Demon King Piccolo was born from me trying to create a truly bad guy. That period was the most interesting to draw.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archiv ... -toriyama/

I thought of Piccolo first, and I wanted to draw him as a scary character,
Fast forward to the Saiyan saga, and we meet Nappa, Raditz and Vegeta. The most powerful member is the shortest one who didn't have bulging exposed muscles. Go to Namek and Frieza's strongest henchman (pre-Ginyus) is the pretty boy, Zarbon. Fast forward to transformations and it's the same dynamic.

Toriyama has a pretty clear pattern, my guy. You'd have to be blind or not looking to not see it.
To be honest, that's the first time I've heard that about Tao. He seems like he was inspired by the silent and intimidating master in classic Kung fu films. We're agreeing that Toriyama liked to subvert expectations. I think it's more about doing something new and unexpected not an idea that's been done before and never considered that great so the only surprise is Toriyama is deciding to use it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:23 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:57 pm If Hakaishin Toppo is anything to go by, a “True” Ultra Ego Vegeta is only gonna look more monstrous.. Probably with a more reddish skin tone. Could be pretty cool.
Hakaishin Toppo is just bulkier with a violet aura. Which is... pretty much what UE Vegeta seems to be, except less bulky.

And I'd argue Vegeta's might be closer to a complete\full UE than Toppo given that, by Beerus and Vegeta's words, UE is all about fixating on something.
And Toppo did decide to use it by leaving his fixation on Justice.

so, yeah. Toppo was doing it wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:58 am

I like the moment where Monaito gives Goku Bardock's scouter.

Goku has shown sentimentality previously toward Gohan's 4-star. His attitude toward the ball, as well as his journey to recover it, was a major part of the series.

Of course, Goku doesn't have the same connection with Bardock that he had with Gohan, but there's no reason he shouldn't be fond of his dad at this point. Goku's more mature than back then, so his quiet smile is appropriately subtle.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:10 am

TKA wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:24 amIf Hakaishin Top is anything to go by, I do not want to see that anime-ism introduced into the manga in any way, shape, or form.

Toei just refuses to understand that Toriyama’s style favors sleek and efficient over huge and bulky. They didn’t get it when they made those 13 awful Z movies, and they still don’t get it now.
TKA wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:18 pm
Skar wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:25 pm That's a little unfair. If you show someone Orange Piccolo, they would probably assume it was designed by Toei since it's the same kind of transformation as Garlic Jr or Bojack
I think we're mature enough here for me to be able to speak without having to list the minor exceptions. Orange Piccolo being one of them. Toriyama's *usual* modus operandi is that big, jacked forms are meant to be red herrings before he reveals the sleeker, unassuming form.

If you look through Toei's archives, you can find an instance or two where they don't go the super jacked route, like with Meta Cooler or Ledgic. It doesn't change the fact that their usual M.O. is "scary villain needs to be big." See: Koyama whining about Beerus being stronger than Broly.
Toriyama's MO is indeed usually "small guy stronger" to subvert expectations. But that doesn't mean "big guy stronger" is inherently at odds with his "style", otherwise 'minor exceptions' like Orange Piccolo wouldn't exist. Or the original bulky Broli. Or Ozaru Vegeta. Or Zarbon's transformation. Or 100% power Freeza. Or Coola's transformation. Or #13's transformation. The anime usually taking a different route also doesn't mean that they 'don't get it'. They very well may simply want to take a different route.

So, while the anime will usually go with "big guy stronger", that doesn't mean "big guy stronger" is inherently an 'anime-ism' (or that it necessarily comes from a place of ignorance). Meaning that there's no reason that Vegeta getting super roided up for a more 'complete' Hakaishin powerup would be fundamentally at odds with Dragon Ball's design philosophy, or something. Hell, it would track with Toriyama's MO of "smaller better" anyway, given that the Angels are stronger than the Hakaishin, and given that the core thrust of Goku and Vegeta's arcs is always going to be that Goku is better at this kung fu shit than Vegeta is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:11 pm

Uhm, okay.

I don’t think you said anything I didn’t say. There are smatterings of times where Toei doesn’t go “jacked guy big power” and there are smatterings of times where Toriyama goes “jacked guy big power”. There are no absolutes in the universe, my guy. We define things based on trends. The trend is Toei defaults to that, and Toriyama defaults to something different. We don’t define things by the exceptions.

Now here’s more of what I think: Toei knows it doesn’t have to put in much writing work to get large swaths of fans to pay for their shit; all they have to do is slap the “Dragonball” branding on it. In lieu of making compelling stories and complex villains who are scary based on their actions, they just design big guys who look intimidating.

A lot of writing went into making the diminutive Frieza terrifying. A lot went into making the fat, clown-like Buu terrifying. The creatively-bankrupt writers at Toei aren’t able to do that in their 90 minute movies, so they just default to making traditionally menacing characters.

This, mind you, is me being generous because GT was a whole dang show with 50+ episodes and all of its antagonists are big jacked dudes or giant scary robots.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by NeoKING » Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:27 pm

TKA wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:11 pm Uhm, okay.

I don’t think you said anything I didn’t say. There are smatterings of times where Toei doesn’t go “jacked guy big power” and there are smatterings of times where Toriyama goes “jacked guy big power”. There are no absolutes in the universe, my guy. We define things based on trends. The trend is Toei defaults to that, and Toriyama defaults to something different. We don’t define things by the exceptions.

Now here’s more of what I think: Toei knows it doesn’t have to put in much writing work to get large swaths of fans to pay for their shit; all they have to do is slap the “Dragonball” branding on it. In lieu of making compelling stories and complex villains who are scary based on their actions, they just design big guys who look intimidating.

A lot of writing went into making the diminutive Frieza terrifying. A lot went into making the fat, clown-like Buu terrifying. The creatively-bankrupt writers at Toei aren’t able to do that in their 90 minute movies, so they just default to making traditionally menacing characters.

This, mind you, is me being generous because GT was a whole dang show with 50+ episodes and all of its antagonists are big jacked dudes or giant scary robots.
Funny thing about GT is the smaller = stronger trope got flipped on its head, since Goku was the diminutive one and most if not all his foes underestimated him for it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:56 pm

NeoKING wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:27 pm
TKA wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:11 pm Uhm, okay.

I don’t think you said anything I didn’t say. There are smatterings of times where Toei doesn’t go “jacked guy big power” and there are smatterings of times where Toriyama goes “jacked guy big power”. There are no absolutes in the universe, my guy. We define things based on trends. The trend is Toei defaults to that, and Toriyama defaults to something different. We don’t define things by the exceptions.

Now here’s more of what I think: Toei knows it doesn’t have to put in much writing work to get large swaths of fans to pay for their shit; all they have to do is slap the “Dragonball” branding on it. In lieu of making compelling stories and complex villains who are scary based on their actions, they just design big guys who look intimidating.

A lot of writing went into making the diminutive Frieza terrifying. A lot went into making the fat, clown-like Buu terrifying. The creatively-bankrupt writers at Toei aren’t able to do that in their 90 minute movies, so they just default to making traditionally menacing characters.

This, mind you, is me being generous because GT was a whole dang show with 50+ episodes and all of its antagonists are big jacked dudes or giant scary robots.
Funny thing about GT is the smaller = stronger trope got flipped on its head, since Goku was the diminutive one and most if not all his foes underestimated him for it.
After which he got an edgy SSJ4 transformation in which he returned to normal size, and looked even cooler.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by fleahop » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:37 pm

I wasn't a fan of the Moro arc because I thought it had a great idea and then tripped and fell on its face. It did manage to eek at a solid "Buu arc Vegeta thumbs-up" out of 10 for me, but just barely.

With the Granolah arc I felt we had a chance to get some really neat lore and see some unique ideas. Instead we got the most hamfisted through-line to tie Goku to his father he's never met and we saw the dumbest execution of unique ideas. The arc is so bad that the Moro arc seems good.

I tried to stay positive on this one, but wow, it's amazing how low it kept digging. I never thought Frieza showing up yet again with a new form would actually make me cheer.

I want a series refresh more than ever.
Movie 1/Dead Zone >>> DBS Broly

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:09 pm

TKA wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:11 pmWe don’t define things by the exceptions.
I'm not "defining anything". I'm saying that the "anime-ism" that is a swole Hakaishin form would be perfectly at home in the manga, despite your reservations. Especially in a manga by Toyble, a big fan of Dragon Ball's anime version.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:22 am

I'm sorry, but Whis had no business reviving Monaito. It took away all the tension from the surprise death beam. Heck, Granolah even completely ignored Frieza's arrival because of this. And the conclusion to all that was just your typical Whis saving the day for the n'th time. Isn't he supposed to be more neutral, being an Angel and all?

Not only that, but if Monaito died the DBs would cease to function and that would be much better end than him just deciding to seal them (???).
It came off as random, considering they've been used for good wishes for a long while until Granolah and Heeters did their attempts.

Poor Toronbo shouldn't just cease to exist because of them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:43 pm

Xeogran wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:22 am I'm sorry, but Whis had no business reviving Monaito. It took away all the tension from the surprise death beam. Heck, Granolah even completely ignored Frieza's arrival because of this. And the conclusion to all that was just your typical Whis saving the day for the n'th time. Isn't he supposed to be more neutral, being an Angel and all?

Not only that, but if Monaito died the DBs would cease to function and that would be much better end than him just deciding to seal them (???).
It came off as random, considering they've been used for good wishes for a long while until Granolah and Heeters did their attempts.

Poor Toronbo shouldn't just cease to exist because of them.
He did it to free them up so they could come and help sooner, rather than them going to Namek or earth and reviving him there. It served Beerus interests indirectly which is whis whole thing
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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