Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Geraldo » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:27 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:59 pm
TKA wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:45 pm
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:07 pm Also, about the hiatus: I'm all for it.
Co-signed.

Id rather he take 6 months off to meticulously plan out an arc than spend six months on a circular fight scene that goes nowhere.

It was cartoonish how many times Gas and Granolah said “now I’ll get serious”.
Planning doesn't really have anything to do with that. The comic is going to pass through the hands of more than just one person. The problem is that a decision was made to simply continually stretch out these battles despite having few ideas for character development and story. Toyo-tarou and Toriyama both have an editor who has to pre-approve the script and storyboards for the next chapter and proceeding storyline. It's up to said editor to make sure that the story doesn't get bogged down in being repetitive and to improve the quality of the comic. The problem here is that said editor (Victory Uchida?) is probably encouraging their nonsense because they think it sells magazines and merchandise. In the end all we get is a bunch of high-calorie, low-protein fighting that doesn't endear the characters or story onto the audience because nobody's examining each panel or line of dialogue as an opportunity to establish character and then build on it.

Like, the pee joke was probably the most humanizing thing Gas did in forever. We didn't get pay off for why Gas wanted to be the strongest, we didn't see Gas develop and reach a point of "hey, maybe being the strongest for Elec's sake instead of my own isn't healthy for me" nor did we really underscore that Granola could have wound up like Gas and he really dodged a bullet by meeting and learning from Gokuu and Vegeta and they in turn from him

Like, there's so much exciting character work they can do here but just...didn't.
You're a better storyteller and editor than 'utter defeat' "WE'RE REACHING THE CLIMAX, BUT ALLOW ME TO SPAM YOU OVER A 3 CHAPTERS BATTLE FOR OVER A YEAR" Uchida.

Heck, Gas about to drop dead in the midst of his last big battle while Elec showing signs of not caring for his life, and choosing to end this madness and realize he's been lied to, just for him to tell a wrinckled Granolah: "I rather live without this curse on my shoulders, how do we reverse this?" And have all the people (sans Elec) to look after the Dragon Balls and to wish Toronbo to reverse everything their wishes had done to them and this cosmos, would be the fitting ending for this arc. With Elec running away with 7-3 on his control, plotting to extract revenge on everybody once the time is right. No Frieza and no shmeeza to be pulled out of nowhere.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:27 pm

Superhero handles it in typical Toriyama fashion where he makes sure to plug the egregious holes.

Since SuperHero takes place after this arc, you’d think Piccolo would just wish to be the strongest. But since this is proper Dragonball, the wish is much narrower and makes way more sense.

The wishes are only comparable in the sense that Toriyama wrote it the right way and Toyotaro wrote it the wrong way. Just saiyan.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:29 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:24 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:59 pmLike, there's so much exciting character work they can do here but just...didn't.
That's the most tragic thing about this arc for... the set-up to tell a poignant story about how self-destructive the pursuit of power can be was right there to be in an incredibly organic and efficient manner but it just never happened. The arc just developed into one big, long, slog of a fight that provided no interesting development or catharsis for anyone in the story.
Yeah, it really sucks. Toriyama's lack of desire to really make a work that makes its audience think really comes back to bite him in the ass and it's such a shame because Dragon Ball is only ever allowed to work in such a narrow little box. Really makes one think of just how useless our time is spent on Dragon Ball.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:31 pm

TKA wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:49 am If a sufficiently powerful bad guy shows up and wants to kill everyone, you should wish to be stronger than them. Who cares if you die right after you beat him?

Gas proved the wish worked exactly as presented. He lost due to a technicality in the wording. Next time someone should say “I wish I was the strongest in all of existence”.
Goku and Vegeta wouldn't wish that, they fight for sports and improve even in the most threatening situations, and the others would let them deal with it, and even if they don't, their potential would probably cap them weaker than Goku, if they don't consume all their lifespan and die before accomplishing anything.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:32 pm

I dunno why Granolah got such a lackluster ending in his own arc. Last chapter and he does nothing but scream Monaito's name only for Whis to heal him randomly anyway. Nothing about how he regrets making the wish or him wanting to undo it.

Merus, in comparison, got a much better finisher (though he should've remained dead if they don't plan on doing anything with him again.)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:52 pm

So it looks like Oil and Macki were unaware of the fact that Elec was the weakest of the group.

Understandable. He was the leader of the family and made all of the decisions. It makes sense for them to have held him in high regard.

Seeing Elec go out like that was disappointing. The character was so much cooler early on when he was portrayed as a calculating strategist.

Gas was whatever to me. The weapon switching gimmick was cool. That's about it.

Now I'm wondering what the next arc is going to be about.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:45 pm

Helios518 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:42 amThank you for the explanation! In that case, I suppose Toyotaro is at fault for not properly explaining this weird conundrum.
That means he's doing his job well. "Explanation" is not Dragon Ball's forte. :shifty:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:02 pm

TKA wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:27 pm Since SuperHero takes place after this arc, you’d think Piccolo would just wish to be the strongest. But since this is proper Dragonball, the wish is much narrower and makes way more sense.
Piccolo might not know such a wish is possible. Goku and Vegeta don't just hang out with their friends and shoot the shit. Even if they did, the moral would be: it's a bad wish, don't do it.

Also, Piccolo does have some sense of pride. It's why they didn't just wish RR away. He'd wish for his existing abilities to be polished, but I can't see him wishing to be strongest in the universe. As for the Orange power-up...well, he didn't ask for it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:11 pm

Something interesting I noticed: the motif of knowledge got brought up again in this chapter. Elec's whole schtick is his belief that knowledge > brute power. The hypocrisy is that the only way he exerts his massive, massive brain is to just get other people to kill everything that stands in his way. His grand plans wouldn't get off the ground at all if there weren't people far stronger than him that he could manipulate into doing his dirty work. Then Freeza comes in and reveals that not only is he stronger, he also knew everything Elec had been planning all along. "There's nothing in the universe I'm not privy to." To twist the knife further, Freeza rubs in that Elec's precious intel was futile. He failed to ascertain Freeza's whereabouts prior to summoning him and he was foolish for placing so much faith in the Dragon Balls despite knowing the limitations of his wishes. As a last apple in the hog roast, he exposes Elec as the weakest of his family. Freeza pretty much embodies the perfect villain: one who's both cunning and powerful. Both traits that Elec ultimately lacked.

It's interesting that Gas was apparently oblivious to his lifeforce being drained, even as his body is visibly decaying. They gave him a sympathetic/humanising moment, probably the first since he pissed himself, and they have Freeza kill him immediately as he has this huge internal crisis. As much as I have enjoyed Freeza crashing the party, that exemplifies the biggest tragedy of this arc. As Julie and Lord Beerus have already said, those in charge have seemingly done in their power to avoid or ignore any challenging implications within the narrative (i.e. really dissecting Gas's motives for fighting, how he feels about being used by his brother, etc.) whenever the opportunities to delve in deeper have arisen. And instead threw in another action sequence. Which sucks, because it felt like the arc really did want to do something more different and thought-provoking at first.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:33 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:40 am
Helios518 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:04 amThese fanmade terms are killing me lol. It's just UI Omen (or Sign) and UI. I don't know why fans have an obsession with naming every small change to an attack or form.
"True" Ultra Instinct appears in this summary, but as one can see, "true" isn't really part of the name, it isn't even written in capital letter to denote that. It's just an adjective referring to a transformation Goku is using while able to have emotions attached to it.

But then again, ever since Toyotaro introduced it, "Ultra Instinct -Sign-" hasn't been appearing. That website just refers to it as "Ultra Instinct", as the latest summary shows it. Things are weird. If Ultra Instinct -Sign- is now the "real/true" Ultra Instinct, what does that make of Ultra Instinct (you know, the silver-haired one)?
I commented about this subject in another thread.

TL;DR: Black-haired ultra form can now perform “true” Ultra Instinct, whilst it was only capable of mustering -Sign- until Moro. The “true” Ultra Instinct’s accuracy from the silver-haired ultra form drops significantly when Goku’s heart is not calm, otherwise it performs similarly to the black-haired one while being Goku’s most powerful form.

Edit: And the end goal is “true” Ultra Instinct in his normal form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:00 pm

Interesting how, when the arc started, Elec was immediately praised for being "cunning" and "manipulative", making him "unique" amongst DB villains... but in the end, he didn't really achieve anything of note. On top of that, it was revealed that Frieza had been manipulating him and using him as a pawn for 40 years. So, basically, Elec was never really in control of the game, he was always just someone else's pawn.

It's just funny to me how, one year ago, everyone was praising Elec as the smartest villain, but in the end he was just a delusional pawn.

Elec is pathetic compared to the other villains of Super. Zamasu took over the entire Multiverse and caused an entire timeline to be erased. Moro at the very least caused an Angel to become mortal. What did Elec accomplish, again? :think:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:10 pm

What I got out of the whole arc: being the strongest is always momentary; ever changing; never constant. Also, must have a good reason to be the strongest. The right motivations not based on revenge, selfish ambition, guilt, denial, etc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:05 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:00 pm Interesting how, when the arc started, Elec was immediately praised for being "cunning" and "manipulative", making him "unique" amongst DB villains... but in the end, he didn't really achieve anything of note. On top of that, it was revealed that Frieza had been manipulating him and using him as a pawn for 40 years. So, basically, Elec was never really in control of the game, he was always just someone else's pawn.

It's just funny to me how, one year ago, everyone was praising Elec as the smartest villain, but in the end he was just a delusional pawn.

Elec is pathetic compared to the other villains of Super. Zamasu took over the entire Multiverse and caused an entire timeline to be erased. Moro at the very least caused an Angel to become mortal. What did Elec accomplish, again? :think:
Elec would have won it though, had Freeza not been in another dimension at the time of the wish, and if Gas had been more competent in getting things done.

So he wasn’t exactly stupid. He just got unlucky. He should have gathered the balls once again to hedge, considering their unlimited uses. So that’s probably a mistake he made, but he probably had to rush it because Gas had very little left to live.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:30 pm

emperior wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:05 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:00 pm Interesting how, when the arc started, Elec was immediately praised for being "cunning" and "manipulative", making him "unique" amongst DB villains... but in the end, he didn't really achieve anything of note. On top of that, it was revealed that Frieza had been manipulating him and using him as a pawn for 40 years. So, basically, Elec was never really in control of the game, he was always just someone else's pawn.

It's just funny to me how, one year ago, everyone was praising Elec as the smartest villain, but in the end he was just a delusional pawn.

Elec is pathetic compared to the other villains of Super. Zamasu took over the entire Multiverse and caused an entire timeline to be erased. Moro at the very least caused an Angel to become mortal. What did Elec accomplish, again? :think:
Elec would have won it though, had Freeza not been in another dimension at the time of the wish, and if Gas had been more competent in getting things done.

So he wasn’t exactly stupid. He just got unlucky. He should have gathered the balls once again to hedge, considering their unlimited uses. So that’s probably a mistake he made, but he probably had to rush it because Gas had very little left to live.
That too was part of Frieza's plan.

Frieza told Elec that he knew about his ambition to make Gas the strongest and use him to usurp control of the empire. He also said that there's nothing in the Universe he's not privy to.

Elec was simply foolish and underestimated Frieza's influence. He's the Emperor of the Universe, of course he'd have spies and agents everywhere, especially near trade partners like the Heeters. As such, Elec was very foolish to discuss his plans and strategies so openly, of course Frieza was going to find out evenually. He's the Emperor of the Universe and nothing can escape him. Universe 7 is his empire, after all.

Frieza most likely knew when Elec was going to make the wish, and entered into the training dimension at the appropriate time, so as not to be affected by the wish. In the end, he completely manipulated and tricked Elec.

I just find it funny that Elec, this character that the fandom hyped up as the "ultimate mastermind", was used as a pawn since the beginning. It's just hilarious to me. All this guy wanted was to usurp Frieza; but, in the end, all the work he did in the past 40 years only benefitted Frieza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:00 pm

batistabus wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:02 pm Piccolo might not know such a wish is possible.
Because in proper dragonball, it shouldn't be.

You'd think any of the Namekians would've made that wish back when Frieza was genociding their race. Etc. Etc.
pepd wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:31 pm Goku and Vegeta wouldn't wish that, they fight for sports and improve even in the most threatening situations, and the others would let them deal with it, and even if they don't, their potential would probably cap them weaker than Goku, if they don't consume all their lifespan and die before accomplishing anything.
I addressed all of these points well over a year ago.

Goku and Vegeta have swallowed their pride on many previous occasions to save the day. Vegito, Vegito in the Trunks arc, Gogeta in the Broly movie, Bingo Dance, and first transformation of Super Saiyan God. All these scenarios featured them swallowing their pride for the greater good.

As for the second point, we have no idea how many years convert into how many levels of power. Because that wasn't explained to us. We don't know how long-lived or not Gas' race is, nor do we know that for Granolah's race. There are also any number of ways to circumvent the lifeforce into power level gambit since the Earth dragonballs grant 3 wishes.

It's a poorly-implemented and poorly-thought out plot point that didn't need to be this bad. It was just lazily introduced and will now be an albatross around the series' neck going forward.

Or Toriyama can just keep writing and ignoring that shit, as he should.
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How will Goku and Vegeta defeat Frieza?

Post by hopjust602 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:11 pm

Logically, the answer is Vegeta or Goku unlocking new levels of their respective Ultra forms and finally beating Frieza.
However, at this point they're not getting rid of Frieza. Frieza has been a recurring villain & character in Dragon Ball for a long time, and killing him off permanently now would be unexpected. But what I mean by the question is, how will they be able to conclude (what I assume is the next arc) without making it feel like a cheap "oh he just teleported away!"
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Trouser » Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:27 pm

The only answer is... another LAZY recolor.

Ultra Instinct/Ultra Ego Super Saiyan or some other unnecessary bs.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:43 pm

On a separate note, I'm kind of bummed about Goku's "TUI" being black haired like omen. It destroys the cool contrast between he and Vegeta's forms.

But this chapter was great and my favorite so far since Vegeta achieved UE. God bless Freeza and what he brings to the series.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:15 pm

TKA wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:00 pm
pepd wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:31 pm Goku and Vegeta wouldn't wish that, they fight for sports and improve even in the most threatening situations, and the others would let them deal with it, and even if they don't, their potential would probably cap them weaker than Goku, if they don't consume all their lifespan and die before accomplishing anything.
I addressed all of these points well over a year ago.
Mmm... ok? I don't follow your posts...
Goku and Vegeta have swallowed their pride on many previous occasions to save the day. Vegito, Vegito in the Trunks arc, Gogeta in the Broly movie, Bingo Dance, and first transformation of Super Saiyan God. All these scenarios featured them swallowing their pride for the greater good.
Yes, but always only as a very last option, after endangering the day to extremes that may have ended with everyone dead; and a fusion is more like teamwork plus giving up to leave it to someone else, than it is to gain immense and permanent unearned power, abandoning their self-improvement for good. So, if after trying everything from solo to teamwork to fusion, and being in the position to freely ask the wish, they would refuse to do so, it would be problematic, but still not the same.

Don't get me wrong, I agree on that it brings a (yet another) problematic option to the table, but is not really that big for the mentioned reasons.
As for the second point, we have no idea how many years convert into how many levels of power. Because that wasn't explained to us. We don't know how long-lived or not Gas' race is, nor do we know that for Granolah's race.
We know Granola had a expected lifespan of 200 years, and that he started pretty high (Ginyu~), so it took 150 years of a high potential individual to take it to Goku level, and given that Goku is not getting any weaker, it just makes it more unlikely that it will ever be a problem.
There are also any number of ways to circumvent the lifeforce into power level gambit since the Earth dragonballs grant 3 wishes.
Using the Dragonballs creatively to solve anything has always been on the table.
It's a poorly-implemented and poorly-thought out plot point that didn't need to be this bad. It was just lazily introduced and will now be an albatross around the series' neck going forward.
Can't argue an opinion, but will say that its unapologetic silliness was of the most Toriyama there was in the arc. And, man, not that you are adding nothing to it, but "lazy" has ironically become one of the most popular lazy "criticisms".
Or Toriyama can just keep writing and ignoring that shit, as he should.
As he most likely will, but not because is the termination of tension and logic, but because that what he usually does, and the details they introduced around its functioning, and the characters, make it so that they can freely forget it without being particularly problematic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Peach » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:59 pm

I noticed in the movie that....


Maybe he said that because Frieza got so strong in the manga?

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