Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by GTx10 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:40 pm

Thani wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:25 pm
GTx10 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:08 pm Well that was something... Here is my question. What form is Goku using? Is it UI Sign?
Because Goku was at full power and yet his body didn't dodge Freeza's attack. After the TOP and the MORO arc Goku should not be getting blindsided anymore, by anyone. This arc really messed up UI too but at least they used the excuse that as Goku's strength wanes so does his UI. I could buy that, but he was full power here, what the hell happened?
It was "True Ultra Instinct", essentially Goku's own way of using UI that it's supposedly better than the Perfected Ultra Instinct.

And to your second question... it's good ol' power creep showing it's face again. Freeza was just too strong for Goku to react, even with UI. Gas himself was doing it left and right, too.

"TUI?" Wait is this another form of UI for Goku? (Brain pops) Ya know, I think DB has finally for me (anyway) become silly. So that in theory could mean Freeza could hit Whis. Well ok...
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jackalope89 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:21 pm

A real end to the arc. And quite the impression Frieza left in this chapter.

And after this chapter, it only raises so many more questions about Frieza's race. Like, life span, if his race still exists, etc. Will be interesting to see where the next arc picks up at. A time skip of some sort, but how much is the question.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:04 am

Thani wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:25 pm
GTx10 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:08 pm Well that was something... Here is my question. What form is Goku using? Is it UI Sign?
Because Goku was at full power and yet his body didn't dodge Freeza's attack. After the TOP and the MORO arc Goku should not be getting blindsided anymore, by anyone. This arc really messed up UI too but at least they used the excuse that as Goku's strength wanes so does his UI. I could buy that, but he was full power here, what the hell happened?
It was "True Ultra Instinct", essentially Goku's own way of using UI that it's supposedly better than the Perfected Ultra Instinct.
These fanmade terms are killing me lol. It's just UI Omen (or Sign) and UI. I don't know why fans have an obsession with naming every small change to an attack or form.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:40 am

Xeogran wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:40 pmI honestly think the last DBS arc (if there will be one that is :lol: ) will be related to him.
As long as they do something cool. I'd be down for an interaction between him and Kuriza. If that's in the cards, then by all means, do bring Freeza back. If not, then let's just move on to new things.
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:49 pmMaybe they will keep the movies in the future, and keep the manga where it is, so we'll get both?
Thing is, there's only a difference of one year between Granolah saga and Movie 2. It would be a complete waste to keep setting those events from different media under that minimal gap. Just align the manga with the movies' time period already, there's more benefit to be got from that (even if we'd still be stuck in this time period in general...).
Helios518 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:04 amThese fanmade terms are killing me lol. It's just UI Omen (or Sign) and UI. I don't know why fans have an obsession with naming every small change to an attack or form.
"True" Ultra Instinct appears in this summary, but as one can see, "true" isn't really part of the name, it isn't even written in capital letter to denote that. It's just an adjective referring to a transformation Goku is using while able to have emotions attached to it.

But then again, ever since Toyotaro introduced it, "Ultra Instinct -Sign-" hasn't been appearing. That website just refers to it as "Ultra Instinct", as the latest summary shows it. Things are weird. If Ultra Instinct -Sign- is now the "real/true" Ultra Instinct, what does that make of Ultra Instinct (you know, the silver-haired one)?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:15 am

They are making Ultra Instinct so goddamn confusing. I liked it better when UI Sign was just the incomplete version where Goku could only dodge without thinking and with complete UI he could also attack without thinking.

I don’t understand “True Ultra Instinct”. Is he just fighting more aggressively? Didn’t he try that with Moro and fail miserably? How has remembering Bardock somehow improved his Ultra Instinct? I’m very confused. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:24 am

Fitting ending. Finally this arc is over.

I have actually liked it for what it is, but it’s definitely no masterpiece. Very mid, with some very great highs here and there.

This chapter had some, for me. I enjoyed it.

First, Freeza’s appearance, although unexpected, was foreshadowed many times. Heck, Granolah couldn’t even sense him once he got his powers which is what sparked all this mess on Cereal in the first place.

Elec was a great character. His plan would have been quite great had Freeza not stumbled upon a room of time.

And it made sense for Freeza to leave them alive as long as he needed them for his business. The Heeters were just 4 pawns which posed no threat. As he showed, Freeza had both more power and more intel than they ever did. Maybe it was Bardock who informed everyone of the Heeters’ plans? It does not matter though.

What matters, and I think that many are missing this, is that Freeza is now a full-fledged martial artist. He’s adopted Son Goku’s mentality of self improvement, and he’s been willing to train for 10 years to get better.

That’s why he spared the two Saiyans. He actually respects them.

Now, I wonder where this will go. Freeza must have been plotting something.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:33 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:15 am I don’t understand “True Ultra Instinct”. Is he just fighting more aggressively? Didn’t he try that with Moro and fail miserably? How has remembering Bardock somehow improved his Ultra Instinct? I’m very confused. :lol:
Stop thinking in terms of forms and branding.

The story is pretty clear about this. To fight in his perfected Ultra Instinct, you have to have a clear mind and heart. These are things that Goku can do, but it doesn't suit how he actually fights. By sticking to just "Sign"/"Omen", he can still feel things and fight the way he wants to. It's his "true" Ultra Instinct because it's the one that suits him more. No, it's not better than white haired ultra instinct, but it's better for Goku.

They go through great lengths to explain this many, many times in the previous chapter. Re-read it, probably.

Toyotaro tends to overly explain everything that happens in this manga. The only thing he didn't explain is how you can wish to be the strongest in the universe and not have that be a plot point that gets brought up every time an absurdly strong guy shows up.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:35 am

TKA wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:33 am
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:15 am I don’t understand “True Ultra Instinct”. Is he just fighting more aggressively? Didn’t he try that with Moro and fail miserably? How has remembering Bardock somehow improved his Ultra Instinct? I’m very confused. :lol:
Toyotaro tends to overly explain everything that happens in this manga. The only thing he didn't explain is how you can wish to be the strongest in the universe and not have that be a plot point that gets brought up every time an absurdly strong guy shows up.
Do you still think this, or has this chapter satisfied you?

I am curious because personally I think this issue of the dragon balls being exploited to obtain immense power has clear drawbacks, as seen with Gas. To the point that it wouldn’t make much sense for good guys to wish the same.

Though Granolah is seemingly fine and has been spared by the curse, so it might either be that Elec’s wish was worded differently, or that Granolah’s curse was lifted by Elec wishing for the same thing for Gas.

I would also argue that it’s as game breaking as fusion. So yeah, next time what would stop someone from wishing to be the strongest to beat the n-th threat? But the same can be argued about fusion too. Even though potara has been nerfed.

And both the dragon wish and the fusion have the drawback of not always being available. Moroever, it’s possible that only Toronbo, aside from Super Shenron, can grant such wishes. And Monaito is deactivating him…
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragmobot12 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:24 am

Would anyone be upset if Cooler was introduced in Dragon Ball Super as Frost's brother instead of Frieza's?
Honestly, it doesn't make a difference to me personally, I feel like if he were Frost's brother, it would give more depth to both characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:59 am

Thoughts on the Granolah the Survivor Arc:

Full disclosure: I will be reiterating points I've made in previous threads along with some new stuff, so if you're averse to that kind of commentary, I'd advise reading no further. I probably won't have a lot to say about it after this. Take heed, lads!

I went back and marathoned everything to make sure I wouldn't take anything out of context, and also because I was curious enough to see if a full binge-read would change my opinion. If there's one thing I've been consistently struck by, it's how carefully and deliberately set up the first volume is. That's not without good reason: Granolah is unusually nuanced for a guest character in Super, his opening chapters taking the time to humanize him with a look into his home life, current relationships, internal trauma and motives, and personal flaws/mistakes (for example, he's almost instantly humiliated by the Heeters after he's told Freeza had been revived) to ensure he's more than just "sniping badass with tragic backstory". He and his goals are pivotal to the arc, while his employer, the Heeters, are almost machiavellian in their own schemes. It's got an ambitious premise that dedicates a lot of its time establishing who and what it's supposed to be about, and clearly wants you to be invested in Granolah's journey.

I also liked Vegeta vs. Granolah, which I'd go so far as to call the arc's pinnacle after a considerably less interesting skirmish between Goku and Granolah. Rather than develop Vegeta further through some specific circumstance like with the previous arc, his prior growth throughout Dragon Ball instead enhances Granolah's development; if Oatmeel represents Granolah's conscience that he's desperately trying to bury, then Vegeta reflects all the harmful repercussions of burying it. Just about everything these characters grapple with during their conflict — Granolah throwing away Oatmeel, Vegeta's remorse over the actions of the Saiyans, Granolah seeing the terrified Sugarian family and being reminded of his own trauma, Vegeta asking Granolah if there's truly nothing more to his life — really drives home how Granolah had discarded his own life's purpose for the sake of misguided payback. It's not a path that's glorified, but a surprisingly in-depth analysis of revenge along with its psychological impact and consequences.

Sadly, that's where my compliments end, for what little I could muster.

My re-read was an all-too-potent reminder that the plot indeed becomes a total nothingburger from after Vegeta's fight all the way until the end: Granolah stops mattering in his own arc, Gas takes over as the main focus despite effectively being a non-character, Bardock is the K00LEST SAIYAN EVAR!!!1 and his fanfic-y text really wants you to know it, and Elec turns out to be generic cartoon doomsday villain #567 whose personality amounts to making evil smiley faces or shaking his fist whenever his brother winds up on the losing end. None of these sweeping changes accomplish anything narratively except to retrospectively make all those initial chapters — and what they wanted you, the reader, to be invested in — feel utterly pointless, and fruitless. All characterization is swept under the rug, and all structural coherency is reduced so drastically that to this day I can't believe this was actually drafted in a planned outline. Toriyama might have written by the seat of his pants for the original run, but he was miles better at keeping things more consistent and exciting than this.

Moreover, what really stinks about this padded "climax" that spans over half the arc is actually twofold; it's pure filler, but it also drags on for ten chapters (that's two and a half volumes) so it's an even more exhausting slog to revisit. That's an awful lot of pages for something that essentially does nothing with the story or characters. A more elaborate kind of progression could have worked back when its plotting felt more scheme-y in the first act; not so much in any subsequent one, which thoroughly amounts to a series of empty, dragged out, repetitive fights with barely any pretext or subtext to accompany them. It's pretty much a textbook example of what not to do while telling a story, particularly a canonical Dragon Ball one. Just to put into perspective how pointless Gas's whole subplot is, you can skip volumes 18 and 19 entirely and the whole arc would probably improve for it.

Even the action beats are virtually the same every chapter, but with a different coat of paint. Gas constantly sandbags because he's either holding back or isn't experienced with his power, then he starts losing, then he decides he's gonna get serious-for-real now or gets a pep talk from Elec, then he powers up, then it's back to the start of the cycle. Rinse and repeat again, and again, and again, and again. It's all the same shit disguised under different choreography, so turning my brain off for this stretch wouldn't cure the boredom. Chapter 81 was the only time their prolonged battle genuinely had me guessing what could happen next, and it just turned out to be Goku using a diversion to buy time.

Among the occasional parts here that weren't terrible, like Bardock's first chapter or the planet-swapping portion of Goku's fight, I could only enjoy those if I mentally isolated them from the arc as a whole because their surrounding context is so ass. It's at least clear that the central theme is "accepting one's self/past instead of clinging to the burdens of one's self/past", but when the arc unceremoniously benches its own MC only to replace him with a much less integral one, or haphazardly tries to shift its emotional core to Goku and Bardock (which fails to work even on its own merits) while miring them with all kinds of thoughtless retcons from dramatic "resolve" boosts to plot armor bestowing wishes, it can't resonate. These things add nothing, and certainly aren't as compelling as the arc's initial storyline. It's uber shallow stuff.

When Granolah finally does return for the conclusion, it's almost as if the manga concedes it was wasting the reader's time. Goku and Vegeta haven't really changed, or to put it more astutely, they regressed and reverted back to normal. Granolah says he's decided to not dwell on revenge anymore, which happened off panel, and offers no explanation for how he arrived at that point other than — hilariously, and you guessed it — putting Bardock on a pedestal. His development is completely skipped over because of all this screentime having been devoted to peripheral nobodies like Gas, so while the arc's stakes are intended to be more personal, they never truly come across that way. There's never a reason to care about the story's conflicts, and said conflicts stopped feeling personal after Vegeta's first fight on Cereal. Gas might have his one-way hang-ups, but Elec's obsession with having two disinterested Saiyans killed at the cost of Gas's own life doesn't track when you consider his own goals. Goku himself alludes to how nonsensical their motivations are.

Lastly, one might notice that I've mentioned nothing about Oil and Macki because there's so little to say about them in general. They're comic relief characters that are rarely used for comic relief, if at all. I think exactly one chapter had gags and they weren't even in it. The Heeters as a group are so bereft of anything narratively worthwhile that Freeza of all people had to swoop in out of nowhere to put the collective out of its misery because nobody else bothered to do it; a very twisty (and very Freeza) resolution not out of the ordinary for DB, to be sure, but one that in this case just re-affirmed how painfully fucking monotonous everything had been up to that point. As was mentioned above, the catharsis here is only that Freeza "saved" the arc by bringing it to an abruptly swift end.

Those are my grievances in a nutshell. I guess my one positive takeaway from the arc (or rather, despite the arc) is that I still like Granolah as a character, ignoring the massive disservice done to him. Were it not for his inclusion, I'd struggle to find anything positive to say about it. He could've been a part of something potentially very compelling, and it sure is a bummer that never came to pass.

Overall:

I called 'Galactic Patrol Prisoner' the worst arc of the manga back when it had just ended, but added that it was nonetheless a moderately enjoyable experience. I stand by the latter part of that statement. What it sometimes lacked in pacing or in being too predictable and derivative, it made up for in dovetailing character throughlines, sufficient levity and funny gags, a competently executed theme (stealing vs. earning/giving), and a formulaic but satisfying climax. It was okay, and could have been even better if it dared to take more risks. While a lot of folks frequently compared the arc to Toei productions from the 90's, I think it felt uniquely Dragon Ball in a way they didn't, albeit not quite Toriyama's Dragon Ball. It's a solid 6/10, which is slightly above average.

This arc, on the other hand, is well below average. This arc is bad. It is the actual nadir of the manga, and is fundamentally at odds with the kind of story it was originally trying to be. What it lacks in structure, it rings just as hollow in every other regard despite its promising start. Its tone, pacing, and flow feel nothing like Toriyama's work. The action sequences in its latter half have absolutely nothing going for them and would rather spend more time indulging in epic choreography or whatever than aspire to be as unpredictably off-the-wall as the conflicts and story beats DB is known for. Due to its meandering focus, its main theme isn't communicated in a way that would actually resonate with readers. Character throughlines constantly fall flat; Granolah's practically disappears. It's a shame that it turned out that way, but I shit you not when I say I enjoyed GT and the majority of the old Z movies more than this. That's something I've never, ever said, or thought I'd say, about a mainline manga arc.

To everyone who mentioned Super is spinning its wheels at this point, I'd agree that it's due for a conclusive ending soon if it's going to continue in this direction. In the meantime, I'm personally okay with the so-called "status quo" as long as these stories can be told in ways that complement their guest characters or at least come across as a focused narrative. That's evidently not always the case. If what transpired is a sign of things to come, I have no interest in DBS going forward. Toyotaro is better than this, and Toriyama is definitely better.

3/10.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:32 am

I love this chapter. I think it's a really great ending to the arc. It's packed with so many moments, and like ch.86, the pacing is notably faster than much of the story.

The healer leveled up from healing so much. In a series that's mostly about characters training to improve fighting, I like this little plot point.

I speculated that there might have been more to Elec than selfish manipulation, but it turns out he was pretty straightforward. It could've been cool if he had more of a mafia-style view of family, but as is, he's even more of a despicable bastard, and Gas' story is that much more tragic as a result. I've liked Gas more with every subsequent chapter (even though his series of fight drag out the arc for me), and I definitely feel bad for him here. And even though I don't think Elec quite lived up to expectations, I still think Heata - as a unit - is an interesting addition to the DB universe.

On that note, I like zombie Gas. "Cursed to be the Universe's strongest..." Diving into the beam is a ridiculous strategy, it's great. And although Gas taunted Granolah, he decided to tend to Monaito instead of fighting. In the end, he cared for his loved one more than revenge. And he doesn't even seem to notice when Freeza shows up.

The draft cliffhanger was really successful in creating speculation around Freeza, revealing it to be Gas, but then delivering on Freeza in the end. Some thought the arc might breeze right past Freeza (like the Moro arc), which would've been funny, but I think this is infinitely more satisfying. Summoning Freeza was Elec's "errand" that he needed to attend to, apparently.

Freeza's in top form here. I actually like "Team Rocket" Freeza. I think it's a good use for him in the Super era, and he always delivers. Gas' death is among the most brutal in all of DB. Black Freeza is absurd and anticipated; the moment calls back to foreshadowing from DBS:Broly. And like Gogeta in that movie, he lets them live. I guess Maki and Oil are replacing Cheelai and Lemo on Freeza's staff?

Whis retrieves the Saiyans because Beerus can't figure out to boil water lol. Vegeta gifts Granolah the Dragon Radar while Monaito gifts Goku the Scouter. Both moments are appropriately touching and "small".

Whis comments that "maybe the strongest warrior emerged elsewhere in our universe". It's a cheeky statement, so maybe he's just lying to motivate them, but the next villain is always more formidable than the last.

The manga is in an indefinite hiatus to prepare for the new arc. This is good news. With release of Super Hero and the end of this arc, I'm happy to sit on those stories for a while. Hopefully Toyotaro is able to get some well-deserved rest, but I kind of doubt it. I'm looking forward to whatever's next. And since we shouldn't expect a new chapter for a while, I'll probably wait to summarize my thoughts on the arc as a whole.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:42 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:40 am
Helios518 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:04 amThese fanmade terms are killing me lol. It's just UI Omen (or Sign) and UI. I don't know why fans have an obsession with naming every small change to an attack or form.
"True" Ultra Instinct appears in this summary, but as one can see, "true" isn't really part of the name, it isn't even written in capital letter to denote that. It's just an adjective referring to a transformation Goku is using while able to have emotions attached to it.

But then again, ever since Toyotaro introduced it, "Ultra Instinct -Sign-" hasn't been appearing. That website just refers to it as "Ultra Instinct", as the latest summary shows it. Things are weird. If Ultra Instinct -Sign- is now the "real/true" Ultra Instinct, what does that make of Ultra Instinct (you know, the silver-haired one)?
Thank you for the explanation! In that case, I suppose Toyotaro is at fault for not properly explaining this weird conundrum.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Peach » Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:44 am

Dragmobot12 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:06 pm What kind of villain would you guys want to see next?
I've always thought it would be cool to see a villainous team similar to the Akatsuki and Espada.

Also, a former protegee or rival of Beerus

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:49 am

emperior wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:35 am Do you still think this, or has this chapter satisfied you?

I am curious because personally I think this issue of the dragon balls being exploited to obtain immense power has clear drawbacks, as seen with Gas. To the point that it wouldn’t make much sense for good guys to wish the same
Yes, I feel the exact same way.

If a sufficiently powerful bad guy shows up and wants to kill everyone, you should wish to be stronger than them. Who cares if you die right after you beat him?

Gas proved the wish worked exactly as presented. He lost due to a technicality in the wording. Next time someone should say “I wish I was the strongest in all of existence”.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jamiljamtheman » Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:03 pm

For an arc so focused on mindless fighting (which I enjoyed), I was taken aback by the darkness, the raw emotions of betrayal and genuine hurt from Gas, regarding his older brother. It was a little gut wrenching and a poignant scene.

A highlight in this chapter, which I enjoyed overall. Can’t wait to see what the next arc brings!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:07 pm

Also, about the hiatus: I'm all for it. Toyotaro really needs to take his time and think about how to properly present and structure a story, and mull over what made the Super manga's first three arcs so good.

I want him to make a worthwhile product, and I think he's already shown himself capable of it. As annoyed as I sometimes get by all the "don't like it, don't read it" complaining about complaints, there's some small merit to them when you've gone years being disappointed by the manga's nosedive in quality. Hopefully the third time's a charm, otherwise I'll have probably washed my hands with it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:45 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:07 pm Also, about the hiatus: I'm all for it.
Co-signed.

Id rather he take 6 months off to meticulously plan out an arc than spend six months on a circular fight scene that goes nowhere.

It was cartoonish how many times Gas and Granolah said “now I’ll get serious”.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:59 pm

TKA wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:45 pm
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:07 pm Also, about the hiatus: I'm all for it.
Co-signed.

Id rather he take 6 months off to meticulously plan out an arc than spend six months on a circular fight scene that goes nowhere.

It was cartoonish how many times Gas and Granolah said “now I’ll get serious”.
Planning doesn't really have anything to do with that. The comic is going to pass through the hands of more than just one person. The problem is that a decision was made to simply continually stretch out these battles despite having few ideas for character development and story. Toyo-tarou and Toriyama both have an editor who has to pre-approve the script and storyboards for the next chapter and proceeding storyline. It's up to said editor to make sure that the story doesn't get bogged down in being repetitive and to improve the quality of the comic. The problem here is that said editor (Victory Uchida?) is probably encouraging their nonsense because they think it sells magazines and merchandise. In the end all we get is a bunch of high-calorie, low-protein fighting that doesn't endear the characters or story onto the audience because nobody's examining each panel or line of dialogue as an opportunity to establish character and then build on it.

Like, the pee joke was probably the most humanizing thing Gas did in forever. We didn't get pay off for why Gas wanted to be the strongest, we didn't see Gas develop and reach a point of "hey, maybe being the strongest for Elec's sake instead of my own isn't healthy for me" nor did we really underscore that Granola could have wound up like Gas and he really dodged a bullet by meeting and learning from Gokuu and Vegeta and they in turn from him

Like, there's so much exciting character work they can do here but just...didn't.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:18 pm

Funnily enough, something similar to the wish happened in Super Hero, lol. Unlocking the full potential of somebody, only less capable and for a better reason. That hackotaro, man.

All in all, the arc was too long, after Gas got his wish, the story seemed to be stuck in mud, the fight was prolonged just because, that train chapter was as cool as unnecessary. Though the landing was good. After Goku managed to get his own UI, it was a whole different thing. And Freeza's appearance was a treat, Godot finally arrived. That was what I wanted Jiren to do in the Broly movie, or Beerus in the Moro arc, just to fuck with the audience lol.

I still want to know why the fuck there is a 2 set DB with no cooldown and with a dragon that walks you through your wish.

Granny's portion of the arc : 8/10
Gas' portion: 4.5/10
Climax: 9/10
Overall: 7/10 (but as a whole I'd give it a 6)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:24 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:59 pmLike, there's so much exciting character work they can do here but just...didn't.
That's the most tragic thing about this arc for... the set-up to tell a poignant story about how self-destructive the pursuit of power can be was right there to be in an incredibly organic and efficient manner but it just never happened. The arc just developed into one big, long, slog of a fight that provided no interesting development or catharsis for anyone in the story.

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