Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:44 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:45 amGas had fallen into a decrepit state, but he was still capable of tossing UI Goku and UE Vegeta around without much issue.

Aside from that, everything appears to point to Freeza's power as the reason why he was able to end Gas so easily. I don't think he'd power-up/transform to attack Gas if the situation didn't call for it.
While I don't doubt Freeza is definitely powerful, Gas did force himself to become stronger and subsequently age a little more, already being on the verge of rotting into dusty bones, so maybe it could be a little of column A & B here. It should be noted that in the previous chapter, Vegeta was about to land a heavy blow on Gas but lost consciousness as he was in the midst of throwing his punch so perhaps Gas also just happened to have a bad turn of luck: Freeza obviously having no qualms about speeding up the process however much he did.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by hopjust602 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:17 pm

Pkjoan wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:40 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:11 pm And how much time went by between this and Super Hero?
2 years maybe?

Also, is it wrong for me to say that I would rather have more creative stuff ala SSJ4 than all these recolors? What even is "True" UI, that just seems Omen to me and it makes no God damn sense for it to be stronger than the silver haired version.

Also, UE freaking sucked. Not even SSJ3 was this bad.
True UI isn't Goku's strongest form. It's more comfortable to use than Complete UI, and it allows for him to manipulate his emotions. Complete UI and his Kaiju Size Avatar technique are his maximum power, but it doesn't work well if he's emotional. It's pretty much UI Omen but Goku has 100% control.
I agree that Ultra Ego is ugly, we need a Complete Ultra Ego that has an actually good design.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:57 pm

If Hakaishin Toppo is anything to go by, a “True” Ultra Ego Vegeta is only gonna look more monstrous.. Probably with a more reddish skin tone. Could be pretty cool.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:24 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:57 pm If Hakaishin Toppo is anything to go by, a “True” Ultra Ego Vegeta is only gonna look more monstrous.. Probably with a more reddish skin tone. Could be pretty cool.
If Hakaishin Top is anything to go by, I do not want to see that anime-ism introduced into the manga in any way, shape, or form.

Toei just refuses to understand that Toriyama’s style favors sleek and efficient over huge and bulky. They didn’t get it when they made those 13 awful Z movies, and they still don’t get it now.

At least Toyotaro is closer to Toriyama’s aesthetic.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:21 am

TKA wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:24 am
goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:57 pm If Hakaishin Toppo is anything to go by, a “True” Ultra Ego Vegeta is only gonna look more monstrous.. Probably with a more reddish skin tone. Could be pretty cool.
If Hakaishin Top is anything to go by, I do not want to see that anime-ism introduced into the manga in any way, shape, or form.

Toei just refuses to understand that Toriyama’s style favors sleek and efficient over huge and bulky. They didn’t get it when they made those 13 awful Z movies, and they still don’t get it now.

At least Toyotaro is closer to Toriyama’s aesthetic.
Well I don't know I don't know, after all Toriyama also designed various marvelous molds for Frieza, Cell or more recently Orange Piccolo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Luso Saiyan » Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:36 am

TKA wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:24 amAt least Toyotaro is closer to Toriyama’s aesthetic.
Only in some aspects. One of the things that I have disliked in the manga are some of the creative choices, including some designs that, to me, are so un-Toriyama.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:37 pm

When Toriyama designs bulky forms, he tends to use them for subversive purposes. The "grade" forms were inferior to a properly trained Super Saiyan, Orange Piccolo looks like an evil monster to contrast with the Gammas in their traditional superhero outfits (even though Piccolo is the real hero), etc.

When Toei does it, it's strictly unironic and almost always played straight. Blue Evolution, Rage Trunks and Steroids Toppo are some of the worst offenders because they're ugly as sin and bring nothing interesting to the table.

Toyotaro is somewhere between. I think he "gets" Toriyama's intent more than Toei does, but also doesn't design things as elegantly. As expected, of course: Toriyama is an impossibly high standard to begin with.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:25 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:24 amToei just refuses to understand that Toriyama’s style favors sleek and efficient over huge and bulky. They didn’t get it when they made those 13 awful Z movies, and they still don’t get it now.
That's a little unfair. If you show someone Orange Piccolo, they would probably assume it was designed by Toei since it's the same kind of transformation as Garlic Jr or Bojack. To be honest I was even sure it was designed by Toriyama until he mentioned it in an interview since we found out the bigger LSSJ version of Broly was added by someone else in the film.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:18 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:36 am Only in some aspects.
Yes, obviously. That's why I said "closer". If you look at any random cover of this manga, characters are posed in ways Toriyama never would, usually from very dynamic perspectives that Toriyama never used. That's his own flair he's throwing in, as any decent artist would.

Even with his flourishes, I find his art closer to Toriyama's aesthetic than an Omega Shenron, a General Rilldo, a Hirudegarn, a Hatchiyak etc. etc.
Skar wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:25 pm That's a little unfair. If you show someone Orange Piccolo, they would probably assume it was designed by Toei since it's the same kind of transformation as Garlic Jr or Bojack
I think we're mature enough here for me to be able to speak without having to list the minor exceptions. Orange Piccolo being one of them. Toriyama's *usual* modus operandi is that big, jacked forms are meant to be red herrings before he reveals the sleeker, unassuming form.

If you look through Toei's archives, you can find an instance or two where they don't go the super jacked route, like with Meta Cooler or Ledgic. It doesn't change the fact that their usual M.O. is "scary villain needs to be big." See: Koyama whining about Beerus being stronger than Broly.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:27 pm

Skar wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:25 pm since we found out the bigger LSSJ version of Broly was added by someone else in the film.
It was added by Shintani, and I'll readily admit that bit of info surprised me given how subversively it was handled. Dude gets an ass whoopin' from Gogeta the whole time in that form.

Toei has its rare exceptions too, I guess.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:49 pm

"Would Toriyama do this" is not really the best measure to go by. Plenty of other creators have contributed to Dragon Ball, many of them skilled directors, writers or animators. If we cared about only doing things that Toriyama would then we wouldn't get the directing of Ueda Yoshihiro, Yama'uchi Shigeyasu, Nagamine Tatsuya, Nakamura Ryouta, Ishitani Megumi or the writing of Tomioka Atsuhiro.

We should always aim to be better than Toriyama, not copy his style perfectly.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:01 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:18 pmI think we're mature enough here for me to be able to speak without having to list the minor exceptions. Orange Piccolo being one of them. Toriyama's *usual* modus operandi is that big, jacked forms are meant to be red herrings before he reveals the sleeker, unassuming form.

If you look through Toei's archives, you can find an instance or two where they don't go the super jacked route, like with Meta Cooler or Ledgic. It doesn't change the fact that their usual M.O. is "scary villain needs to be big." See: Koyama whining about Beerus being stronger than Broly.
Well he wasn't too far off since a version of Broly ended up being close to Beerus' power. I'm pretty sure Toriyama did design the original LSSJ Broly though. This treated as Toriyama's usual style now but it wasn't that common in the original series. I think that's why it was a subversion because it didn't happen that often.

Freeza came as a surprise since he was getting more monstrous in each transformation until his final form. Before him only villains with transformations were Oozaru Vegeta and monster Zarbon. Cell was becoming more human like after absorbing each cyborg but still intimidating. Fat Buu was unexpected that the ancient demon feared by the highest gods was a pink fat blob but stronger versions like South Kaioshin absorbed and Super Buu were still scarier looking and muscular.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:07 pm

I think Toyotaro has produced the best Dragon Ball character designs aside from Toriyama. That said, Toyotaro is the only one we know that has had multiple rounds of drafts approved by Toriyama himself before character designs were accepted. I'm not a fan of the GT character designs, but if Nakatsuru did them on his own, I think he did an acceptable job.

As for what writers/artists should aim for, Toriyama is absolutely the standard. "Better than Toriyama" doesn't exist when it comes to Dragon Ball, in my view. Even "nearly as good as Toriyama" is an extremely high standard. Should artists aim to be better? Well...shoot for the moon and land among the stars, I guess.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:03 am

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:49 pm "Would Toriyama do this" is not really the best measure to go by. Plenty of other creators have contributed to Dragon Ball, many of them skilled directors, writers or animators. If we cared about only doing things that Toriyama would then we wouldn't get the directing of Ueda Yoshihiro, Yama'uchi Shigeyasu, Nagamine Tatsuya, Nakamura Ryouta, Ishitani Megumi or the writing of Tomioka Atsuhiro.

We should always aim to be better than Toriyama, not copy his style perfectly.
And the whole spirit of it all is rebellion, so why not rebel against the new norm of simplistic sleek transformations with a gaudy monstrosity ala SSJ3, Orange Piccolo, LSSJ Broly, Gohan Beast, etc? To borrow a cliche, rules are meant to be broken, no?

I'm just saying, it's okay, encouraged even, that not all transformations follow the same design philosophy.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:06 am

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:49 pm "Would Toriyama do this" is not really the best measure to go by. Plenty of other creators have contributed to Dragon Ball, many of them skilled directors, writers or animators. If we cared about only doing things that Toriyama would then we wouldn't get the directing of Ueda Yoshihiro, Yama'uchi Shigeyasu, Nagamine Tatsuya, Nakamura Ryouta, Ishitani Megumi or the writing of Tomioka Atsuhiro.

We should always aim to be better than Toriyama, not copy his style perfectly.
I don't know what "better than Toriyama" is, and arguing the artistic skills necessary for a different medium is a non sequitur.

I think those working on Dragon Ball should at least strive to honor (not necessarily copy) the aesthetic he created, because that's part of what makes it Dragon Ball. There's plenty of DB content that doesn't bother to do that to the point of it screaming fan fiction had it not been released under the license. Not just concerning the art style but storywise too. And even though Toyotaro does tend to conform to Toriyama's aesthetic (and that doesn't mean just the drawing style) compared to others, he also suffers from this to some extent. To me, this last chapter is evidence of that.

What usually happens when other creatives take over from the creator is either limiting themselves to what came before and try to emulate it (badly), or go in the opposite direction and do stuff that is so alien at various levels that is either ludicrous or repulsive in regards to what was established. I think "would Toriyama do this" is a great metric to avoid both, even though it's a rather subjective topic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Geraldo » Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:43 am

At the end of the day, Not-Bojack had needlessly caused Not-Bujin to get killed. At least Not-Zangya and Not-Bido are alive and well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:50 am

Luso Saiyan wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:06 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:49 pm "Would Toriyama do this" is not really the best measure to go by. Plenty of other creators have contributed to Dragon Ball, many of them skilled directors, writers or animators. If we cared about only doing things that Toriyama would then we wouldn't get the directing of Ueda Yoshihiro, Yama'uchi Shigeyasu, Nagamine Tatsuya, Nakamura Ryouta, Ishitani Megumi or the writing of Tomioka Atsuhiro.

We should always aim to be better than Toriyama, not copy his style perfectly.
I don't know what "better than Toriyama" is, and arguing the artistic skills necessary for a different medium is a non sequitur.

I think those working on Dragon Ball should at least strive to honor (not necessarily copy) the aesthetic he created, because that's part of what makes it Dragon Ball. There's plenty of DB content that doesn't bother to do that to the point of it screaming fan fiction had it not been released under the license. Not just concerning the art style but storywise too. And even though Toyotaro does tend to conform to Toriyama's aesthetic (and that doesn't mean just the drawing style) compared to others, he also suffers from this to some extent. To me, this last chapter is evidence of that.

What usually happens when other creatives take over from the creator is either limiting themselves to what came before and try to emulate it (badly), or go in the opposite direction and do stuff that is so alien at various levels that is either ludicrous or repulsive in regards to what was established. I think "would Toriyama do this" is a great metric to avoid both, even though it's a rather subjective topic.
I agree. There should be brave developments... for example Lucasfilm and Dave Filoni. I don't wanna glorify this man or give him bigger credit, as I am not in the camp of "Kathleen Kennedy sucks, they ruin my childhood, make Filoni president." schtick.

But this guy spent years developing series with George Lucas and became his alumni. What he told he does, is not exactly "what would George Lucas do", but asks himself "what that means and how it works in the Star Wars universe and how it connects to everything that already happened. Also, what George told me about some of the established rules and fundamentals, what is Star Wars about?"
And that's it. There are weaker points, but Clone Wars, even Rebels and Bad Batch, when Filoni goes out of bounds of classic developments, it doesn't feel alien and you don't ask yourself, what the hell is happening, what are we watching?

Like Abrams on Star Wars went on route, let's try to replicate the magic Geroge Lucas did 30 years ago and not piss off the fans.
In the end, we know how that worked out. The movies definitely look great, but there is something lacking and you won't make the magic happen twice.
Even with the criticisms, mainly on the dialogues, the prequels still amaze me to this day and if there is a lesson learned with George Lucas, he constantly pushes things forward and all those times, people were blown away by his stuff, he knew that he can do better and was already moving somewhere else.

Thanks to Light & Magic documentary, I got to know George Lucas even more, that guy changed the whole cinema in an insane way.

With Dragon Ball, there is also this problem that probably only Toriyama can make it work, but if they could make a sort of playbook on how Dragon World works and people could move forward, that might be amazing.
We see that Toyotaro brings in some high influences from GT era in designs, which I kinda like, but as somebody said, it is not really faithful to Toriyama for obvious reasons, that guy is also constantly developing for his personal artistic reasons. When somebody starts to copy his art, he is already drawing in updated style.
Also, the stories, that would be for a huge analysis.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:41 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:50 amBut this guy spent years developing series with George Lucas and became his alumni. What he told he does, is not exactly "what would George Lucas do", but asks himself "what that means and how it works in the Star Wars universe and how it connects to everything that already happened. Also, what George told me about some of the established rules and fundamentals, what is Star Wars about?"
And that's it. There are weaker points, but Clone Wars, even Rebels and Bad Batch, when Filoni goes out of bounds of classic developments, it doesn't feel alien and you don't ask yourself, what the hell is happening, what are we watching?
I wouldn't go that far. Filoni and Toyotaro do share a lot of similarities. They worked alongside the creator of their respective franchises, learning from them, but you can clearly see the "flaws" when they are left to their own devices. They don't hesitate to pander themselves.

And regarding Filoni, despite the years he spent with Lucas, his insights (wether superficial or deep) often go against what Lucas's own. But for those not in the know, they think they reflect Lucas's.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:38 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:50 am I agree. There should be brave developments... for example Lucasfilm and Dave Filoni. I don't wanna glorify this man or give him bigger credit, as I am not in the camp of "Kathleen Kennedy sucks, they ruin my childhood, make Filoni president." schtick.

But this guy spent years developing series with George Lucas and became his alumni. What he told he does, is not exactly "what would George Lucas do", but asks himself "what that means and how it works in the Star Wars universe and how it connects to everything that already happened. Also, what George told me about some of the established rules and fundamentals, what is Star Wars about?"
And that's it. There are weaker points, but Clone Wars, even Rebels and Bad Batch, when Filoni goes out of bounds of classic developments, it doesn't feel alien and you don't ask yourself, what the hell is happening, what are we watching?

Like Abrams on Star Wars went on route, let's try to replicate the magic Geroge Lucas did 30 years ago and not piss off the fans.
In the end, we know how that worked out. The movies definitely look great, but there is something lacking and you won't make the magic happen twice.
Even with the criticisms, mainly on the dialogues, the prequels still amaze me to this day and if there is a lesson learned with George Lucas, he constantly pushes things forward and all those times, people were blown away by his stuff, he knew that he can do better and was already moving somewhere else.

Thanks to Light & Magic documentary, I got to know George Lucas even more, that guy changed the whole cinema in an insane way.

With Dragon Ball, there is also this problem that probably only Toriyama can make it work, but if they could make a sort of playbook on how Dragon World works and people could move forward, that might be amazing.
We see that Toyotaro brings in some high influences from GT era in designs, which I kinda like, but as somebody said, it is not really faithful to Toriyama for obvious reasons, that guy is also constantly developing for his personal artistic reasons. When somebody starts to copy his art, he is already drawing in updated style.
Also, the stories, that would be for a huge analysis.
Definitely agree that new creators on a project should have a healthy balance of respect for the past and a braveness to push new ideas forward. In many interviews, Toyotaro seems quite timid about doing the latter, even though Toriyama apparently encourages him to think outside the box. Like he said he considered Flake to be Granolah's father, yet cannot confirm anything in the event that Toriyama might have other ideas. I understand his hesitation, but I highly doubt Toriyama cares about the identity of Granolah's father, especially since he did not create or design Granolah. Tori has always come across as someone quite happy to let other artists have the freedom to do their own thing (so long as they don't fragrantly disrespect his advice and legacy, like the producers of Dragonball Evolution).

On the beefy transformations debate, I think Toriyama's approach has always been varied and unpredictable. King Piccolo was the original planet-threatening supervillain, and he was a towering hulk of muscle. Then we have Freeza, whose strongest form is short and slender. Other strong characters have wavered in size and body shape, from slender to obese to muscular. It all seems to depend on what Toriyama thinks will be most jarring and unexpected! At a certain point, you need a design like Broly and Orange Piccolo to be exactly as tough as they look, to subvert the expectation... of subverting expectations. :crazy:

When it comes to GT, for me the problem with the character designs is fairly simple: they're just naff. Most of them aren't cool and don't reflect the previous look and feel of Dragon Ball. That includes the designs provided by Toriyama. Vegeta with his flat top/moustache combo, Trunks with his khaki jacket and shorts, Rilldo with his bootleg action figure transformations, Super Baby 2 looking like a Rob Liefeld comic book character, most of the Shadow Dragons not looking like dragons at all, etc. There's a charm with some of them for sure, but Dragon Ball really lives and dies by its cool characters and fighting choreography, both of which GT severely lacked. Super Saiyan 4 is the biggest exception as it's a genuinely cool and memorable design that even Toriyama appreciated. I haven't seen Toyotaro take much inspiration from GT yet (aside from that Cerealian who looks a bit like Dr. Myuu, though I saw that as a reference to one of Toriyama's concept sketches of a Tsufurian) and I'd prefer it if it stays that way, tbh.

As for Filoni, he's is a funny one. He obviously gets Star Wars on a very deep level and has worked closely with Lucas. Yet I don't think most of his recent work really reflects the feel of Lucas's Star Wars very well. While most of his work is better than the Sequel Trilogy stuff, there's a similar "uncanny valley Star Wars" feel to it, where everything works well on paper but still feels slightly... off. Filoni glorifies his own characters way too much, for one. But as you say, his approach is infinitely better than someone like Abrams who does nothing but make Frankenstein reanimations of others' work.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:23 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:38 pm In many interviews, Toyotaro seems quite timid about doing the latter, even though Toriyama apparently encourages him to think outside the box. Like he said he considered Flake to be Granolah's father, yet cannot confirm anything in the event that Toriyama might have other ideas. I understand his hesitation, but I highly doubt Toriyama cares about the identity of Granolah's father, especially since he did not create or design Granolah. Tori has always come across as someone quite happy to let other artists have the freedom to do their own thing (so long as they don't fragrantly disrespect his advice and legacy, like the producers of Dragonball Evolution).
This one cracks me up, the guy admits he is not even confident to give a forgettable character some harmless background on a fucking interview, not even on paper, (like Flake is going to be a recurring character or something lol) yet people will come down on him anyway, blaming every big revelation, they dislike, that shakes the franchise's bases, on the guy.
Like after that confession, or after the one about the nameks not being from Namek, how could I bring myself to believe he came up with the Bardock wish, for instance? and if he did, it was supported and approved by the big T. Yet he will get the ticket anyway.

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