Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

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Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:39 am

So I know that this is a way too saturated topic to be debating, but when it comes to DB, and specially, the movies, I love to talk about this, it's something so interesting that you want to know the truth. I initially thought that all of the Movies could be a single alternate timeline, but not, at least most of them are a different continuity. While Dainzeshuu says that only 4 of them (DB movies 3 and Z Movie 7) aren't from the main continuity, we keep talking about this, and I love it, I worked hard in this thought, and I came to conclusion that it exists at least 8 Continuities in the DB/Z era, actually 9, because I'm also going to count the Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans OVA here. Super won't be included, I've already made a thread about it. I want to share my theories and thoughts on how the continuities of these movies work, and see what you guys think, what are your theories, what you think it was the fate of each continuity and what happened in each one of them? How do you separate them? Is there something I missed? Or something I'm wrong? Let's go, this I what I think.

Continuity #1 The Main Animation Continuity
This continuity involves the entire DB anime,the two DB Safety specials, the Z anime but only Saiyans, Freeza, Cell, Other World Tournament and Boo, The Bardock and Trunks specials, and Z Movies 8, 9 and 13. GT and A hero's legacy as well. This continuity to this day hasn't progressed after the end of GT and A Hero's Legacy.
Trivia
  • In GT, the Grand Kaio-Sama Planet appears, which was a filler material exclusive from the Z anime, that leads to GT being canon to the Z anime.
  • Movie 8 definitely can happen during the 10 Days before the Cell Games, I know that Goku and Gohan aren't in their SSJ FP form in the whole movie, but honestly, Goku was going to a Interview, and both staying in their base forms won't change much.
  • Definitely nothing prevents Movie 9 from being part of this continuity, it can happen after Mirai Trunks is ressurected and before the Other World Tournament.
  • Definitely nothing prevents Movie 13 from being part of this continuity, it can happen in between Boo's defeat and the End of Z time skip.
  • Since Movies 10 and 11 can't happen in this continuity, we can assume that Broly died permanently here.
Continuity #2 The First Alternate Story
In this continuity, we have The First 3 DB Movies, all of them are retellings, with the third one containing the biggest differences. Even though Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle doesn't mentions the events of the Legend of Shenlong, and Great Mystical Adventure doesn't mention the events from both of the previous two movies, we can pretty much all agree that both of the 3 belong to the same continuity. No Sign of Suno, Chichi, Gyumao, Uranai Baba, no TB, Red Ribbon is replaced by the Mifan Empire, and Pilaf just appears in Movie 3. This continuity to this day hasn't progressed after Movie 3.
Trivia
  • Since in Movie 3, Goku already meets Karin, he didn't fought Tenshinhan, but he and Chiaotzu turn into Z Warriors in the end, and Bora is resurrected, there's pretty much no reason to Uranai Baba arc happen in this continuity, so everything leads directly to the Piccolo arc, except if Pilaf and his Gang weren't killed by Tao Pai Pai.
  • There's a chance that the events in Mt. Frypan happened in off-screen.
Continuity #3 Revenge of Garlic Jr.
Continuity of the movie "Dead Zone" and the Garlic Jr. Arc, this continuity definitely involves a alternate version of the Z anime continuity. This continuity to this day hasn't progressed after the Garlic Jr. Arc ended.
Trivia
  • Since it's impossible for this movie to happen after Raditz, and Kuririn already knows Gohan, It's easy to assume that in this continuity, Raditz came to earth later.
  • The Garlic Jr. Arc implies that the events of Dead Zone, were exactly the same as the ones in the movie, and there's absolutely no chance that the Movie could have happened off-screen in Continuity #1.
  • Even though Maron appears in Z episode 128, she doesn't mentions any of the events of the Garlic Jr. Arc, it's totally possible of Maron existing in Continuity #1 without the events of Dead Zone and the Garlic Jr. Arc.
  • Due to several factors, such as Uranai Baba, the Movie and the Arc also can't happen in Continuity #2.
  • The Garlic Jr. Arc is the only arc in the Z anime that is contradictory to the anime itself.
Continuity #4 The Z Warriors Survive against the Saiyans
Continuity of Z Movies 2 and 3, this continuity involves another alternate version of the Z anime continuity. This continuity to this day hasn't progressed after Movie 3.
Trivia
  • Since Goku in these two movies, uses the Kaioken and the Genki Dama, they need obligatory to take place after the fight against Nappa and Vegeta, but Piccolo, Chiaotzu, Tenshinhan and Yamcha are alive, this implies that in this continuity, all of them survived in the battle.
  • Tree of Might implies that the travel to Namek never happened, which makes sense, the movie takes place in Earth, Piccolo definitely isn't fused with Nail, Goku is still wearing the Kaio-Sama gi. The Only thing related to the Freeza arc in this movie, is a line said by Lakasei (or Rasin, can't remember which of the two said it) mentioning Freeza's name, but that doesn't mean anything.
  • The events of this continuity can't happen in Continuity #3 as well, The Garlic Jr. Arc implies that after Raditz and Dead Zone, everything went normal as in Continuity #1.
  • It's also impossible to happen in Continuity #2 due to obvious reasons.
  • The Flashback of Piccolo dying show in Movie 2, doesn't mean much, that could be just a artistic choice.
  • It's hard to think about what happened after Tree of Might, the characters would never have a good reason to travel to Namek, we can pretty much say that the Cell arc happened, and that due to the inexistence of the power ups from Namek, everyone was killed in the end.
Continuity #5 Freeza is Killed by the Genki Dama
Continuity of Z Movies 4 and 5. this continuity also involves other alternate version of the Z anime continuity. This continuity to this day hasn't progressed after Movie 5.
Trivia
  • Kaio-Sama says that Slug can be stronger than Freeza, that implies that the Freeza arc happaned, but since Goku is in Earth, doesn't know how to transform into SSJ, Kuririn is alive, Piccolo seems much stronger, Cooler says that Freeza was killed, and the fight against Final Form Cooler implies that it was the first time Goku turned into SSJ, it's easy to believe that in the continuity of these two movies, Freeza actually died to the Genkidama and that Namek never exploded.
  • These two movies can't happen in Continuity #4 because that continuity implies that the Travel to Namek never happened.
  • Goku never went to Yadorat.
  • They also can't happen in Continuity #3, because during the Garlic Jr. Arc, Goku isn't in Earth.
  • Can't happen in Continuity #2 as well.
  • This one is harder to tell what happened later, we don't even know if Vegeta was resurrected, and if Freeza was really killed, if so, then everyone would die in the end again just as in Continuity #4 due to obvious reasons.
Continuity #6 Revenge of Cooler and The Androids
Continuity of Z Movies 6 and 7. This, obviously, involves another alternate version of Z anime continuity, and a alternate version of the events from Movie 5. This continuity to this day hasn't progressed after Movie 7.
Trivia
  • Movie 6 can't be canon to the Movie 5 as we know, due to the simple fact that Goku uses Shunkanido against Metal Cooler, but since we're talking about THE RETURN of Cooler, I'll assume that in this continuity, Movie 5 happened, but not as like as it was in Continuity #5, here, Cooler probably arrived during the training for the Androids, resulting into him being defeated easier.
  • This continuity is the hardest one to tell what's going on, Since in this Movie 6, and in Movie 7, Piccolo is already fused with Kami, Dende is already the Kami-Sama, Goku isn't SSJ Full FP yet, Vegeta isn't SSJ Dai Ni Dankai, there's no Trunks in Namek, and Gohan can't even go regular SSJ yet. I can assume that both of them happen before Piccolo goes to fight #17, but, Goku used the virus medicine, was defeated by #18 and #17, and still took a while for the Saiyans to go to the Room of Spirit and Time, but for some reason, they decided to go to Namek while Cell and the Androids were around, Movie 7 shows 18 and 17 killing Gero, maybe here, they let Gero escape? So they went to Namek without even knowing about the two? Then Movie 7 happened somehow? This can't be before Cell games, Cell would've killed everyone just in his second form or even in his stronger imperfect state. The Only good theory I could find for this was the one in the DB Wiki, which says that Trunks deactivated 17,18 and 16, which makes sense.
  • These movies can't happen in Continuities #1,#2,#3 and #4 due to obvious reasons
  • Can't tell if Slug happened.
  • As it was already hard to tell what's going on in this continuity, it's also hard to tell what happened with it later, but going by the theory in DB Wiki, we can pretty much say that Cell in his stronger imperfect state, or Dabura, or Majin Boo, killed everyone.
Continuity #7 The Plan to Eradicate The Saiyans
Continuity of, daaah, Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, this again, involves another alternate version of the Z anime continuity. This continuity to this day hasn't progressed after the events of this OVA.
Trivia
  • This one is worse, While we have the appareance of Slug, Cooler and Turles, and Goku mentioning Broly, we definitely can't say that this OVA belongs to Continuities #1 to #6, first of all, everyone is already like as they are in Cell Games (not gonna mention Trunks' haircurt), Turles being in there is already totally contradictory, as in the continuity of his movie everyone was killed before Cell could even show up, Vegeta and Trunks, makes everything even more confusing, as the Slug and Cooler movies doesn't let us know if Vegeta was resurrected and Freeza survived. All i can say is that in this continuity, Movies 3, 4 and 5 happened somehow, but not in the way as we know, I can't think about how these events could have happened in this continuity without just saying "Turles, Slug and Cooler all showed up during the training for the Androids and all of them were killed too easy", DB wiki doesn't even say anything about this, they just say that it can be inferred that this OVA can take place in the same continuity as Movies 3, 4 and 5, which makes them contradict themselves.
  • Can't tell if Movies 6 and 7 happened, probably not.
Continuity #8 Broly Returns, Gotenks Kills Super Boo & Goku and Vegeta aren't Resurrected
Continuity of Z Movies 10, 11 and 12. For the last time, this one includes just one more another alternate version of the Z anime continuity. This continuity to this day hasn't progressed after the events of Movie 12.
Trivia
  • It's also pretty hard to tell what's going on in this one, but not as the previous ones, firstly, Movie 10 can't take place in the regular continuity (which is the same as Movie 8 ), because the dragon balls are used, the whole Boo arc happens in 2 days and a half, the Dragon balls are used in the Boo arc, and they take some months to be used again, so using them two times in less than a month? Also, many people says that this movie happens before the 25th TB, but Goten already knows Goku when his "spirit" or something shows up, sooo...
  • In Movie 11, we can all understand that it takes place after the TB ends, and that Movie 10 is canon to it, but Goten and Trunks should be in desert, Kuririn should be a stone, and Goku alongside Vegeta,Gohan and Kaioshin inside Babidi's ship. With all of that in mind and with the fact that Gohan and Vegeta aren't around, I can pretty much say that in this continuity, Goten, Trunks ahd Kuririn arrived in the desert much later, okay but what about Goku in the end? Easy, nothing implies that the last scene of the movie happens right after the death of Bio Broly, like, wow, Goku receives the news that Broly returned when he was already dead lol, that scene could have happened in any moment, as when Goku returned to the Other World, nothing prevents it.
  • In Movie 12, Goku mentions Majin Boo, implying that his fight against him already happened, Gotenks already exists, Gohan can't go Ultimate, Shenlong is summoned, the world doesn't seem to be afraid of Majin Boo, Goku and Vegeta both are dead, so, it's really easy to say that in this continuity, Gotenks killed Super Boo, leading to Gohan having no reason to complete his training, and Goku not being ressurected, same for Vegeta.
  • But what about the Dragon balls? Movie 12 could be months after Movie 10 and 11, that's why they could summon Shenlong again.
  • Can't belong to any of the previous Continuities due to obvious reasons, but since several characters of past movies show up here, we can pretty much say that at least Movies 1-5 happened in this continuity somehow, but diferrent from what we know.
  • What happens later? Well, GT or Super, but completelly different from what has actually happened, as everyone needing to Fight Beerus without the help of Goku and Vegeta, leading to Earth's destruction, and Goku never meeting Uub and never becoming a kid.
Continuity #9 The Second Alternate Story
This one is the Continuity from the 10th Anniversary Movie "Path to Power", the purpose of the movie is to retell the beginning of DB once again, so obviously, it can't belong to any of the previous continuities. The Battle against Red Ribbon happens before the events with the Pilaf Gang, Frypan, Kuririn and the 21th TB, and Android 8 dies. This continuity to this day hasn't progressed after the movie.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MrSatan2099 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:55 am

I really appreciate the time and energy you put into the topic. In my younger days I too used to rack my brain trying to fit everything as neatly into continuity as I could.

I always came to the same conclusion that each movie was the junction point of an alternate timeline/reality. The fun thing about Dragon Ball of course is that there's a real canon example of that idea with the Future Trunks Story. So maybe all of these alternate versions of the characters are out there in the ether just like Future Trunks exists in his own world.

Ultimately though it's one of those cases of just love what you love. Obviously official continuity is important, but if you're a long time fan there's something to be said for head-canon. For instance, as a Star Wars fan who followed the old "Legends" books and comics back in the day, I have a hard time letting that stuff go. So my head-canon is a mish mash of ideas from both continuities.

So if someone just loves one of the movies and they feel like it's part of "their" story of the characters I say that's cool.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Grimlock » Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:45 am

You may want to read everything in this thread, you know, to get more perspective and see what others had said.

I don't have much to add that I hadn't said in the other thread already, other than pointing out again that I'm not in favor of each movie, or some movies, taking place in different dimensions. I think they all happen in very same one. And if I were to guess, I think if Toei or Shueisha would ever explain this, in or out-universe, they would think the same. It's easier to put all movies "in the same place" rather than complicating things even further. Stuff like "this major thing? Yeah, it didn't happen" simply doesn't feel like something they would do. I think they would try to deviate from the known story as less as possible.
Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:39 amThis continuity to this day hasn't progressed after the end of GT and A Hero's Legacy.
Dragon Ball Heroes and the Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission manga serve as separated sequels to Dragon Ball GT.

The Time Patrollers in that game are the GT characters after the series ended, and according to VegettoEX, the manga seemingly is a follow-up to that series too. But you'd have to ask him for more details, I can't tell you if this is indeed the case.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:48 am

This is a good attempt at this giant conundrum. Follow up movies don't follow each other, that's crazy but it is what it is.

I think I agree with most of the list, my minor nitpick is that the Broly movie cannot take place in the main continuity, not just because of the non-permanent SS, but because it's a peaceful air they are breathing. The gang is having a picnic, Chichi is planning Gohan's next year, and not just the Son family, hundreds of people are trying to get their kids enrolled in a fancy school... when a few days earlier Earth got an expiration date by a giant bug that had been taking out entire cities. Earth was going nuts during the waiting period -the filler had people hiding in bunkers- yet here they are just planning their future and going to the park, people keep commuting to work, Krilin who couldn't believe Goku was so relaxed, is now singing, I cannot buy this planet just got a death sentence.

I think Cell got defeated by Vegeta or Trunks, explaining why Goku and Gohan don't need to master SS, why Vegeta isn't training his ass off, why life is resuming to normal, why Chichi is so obsessed with school again, and why people are just having a ball. I like to believe they were celebrating their victory at the park.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:18 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:48 am This is a good attempt at this giant conundrum. Follow up movies don't follow each other, that's crazy but it is what it is.
That's the thing "all the movies take place in the same universe" people don't want to accept but is the truth. Both the Lord Slug and first Coola movie -for example- take place after Namek but only one of them addresses that Goku has the ability to become Super Saiyan due to where the manga/tv series where at during the time of release.

I think I agree with most of the list, my minor nitpick is that the Broly movie cannot take place in the main continuity, not just because of the non-permanent SS, but because it's a peaceful air they are breathing. The gang is having a picnic, Chichi is planning Gohan's next year, and not just the Son family, hundreds of people are trying to get their kids enrolled in a fancy school... when a few days earlier Earth got an expiration date by a giant bug that had been taking out entire cities. Earth was going nuts during the waiting period -the filler had people hiding in bunkers- yet here they are just planning their future and going to the park, people keep commuting to work, Krilin who couldn't believe Goku was so relaxed, is now singing, I cannot buy this planet just got a death sentence.

I think Cell got defeated by Vegeta or Trunks, explaining why Goku and Gohan don't need to master SS, why Vegeta isn't training his ass off, why life is resuming to normal, why Chichi is so obsessed with school again, and why people are just having a ball. I like to believe they were celebrating their victory at the park.
We can actually pinpoint the first Broli movie taking place in late March (so a good 10 months after the Cell saga) by Chi Chi mentioning Gohan's spring break has ended. Like the majority of Z movies it wants to set itself "after current conflict in the manga/show ended" but doesn't have the foresight to know what's going to happen (in this case Goku dying at the Cell Games which happened in the manga only a few days before release)

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:51 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:18 am Like the majority of Z movies it wants to set itself "after current conflict in the manga/show ended" but doesn't have the foresight to know what's going to happen (in this case Goku dying at the Cell Games which happened in the manga only a few days before release)
Yeah, it's not like they were just going nuts and re-writing history because that's their thing and fuck Toriyama we can do it better than you, it's just that the manga wasn't that far ahead when they started working on a movie.
SS Goku appeared in the manga, according to Kanzenshuu's manga guide, in march of '91, the anime got it in june. The Cooler movie premiered on july of that year, by the time they were expecting Goku to return from Yadrat.
That manga arc ended around june, so there was no way they could include every new revelation in a movie that was probably in post-production. So they went with a dead Freeza, a Goku with no SS at hand, no Vegeta, and no Yadrat nor shunkanido.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:59 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:48 am This is a good attempt at this giant conundrum. Follow up movies don't follow each other, that's crazy but it is what it is.

I think I agree with most of the list, my minor nitpick is that the Broly movie cannot take place in the main continuity, not just because of the non-permanent SS, but because it's a peaceful air they are breathing. The gang is having a picnic, Chichi is planning Gohan's next year, and not just the Son family, hundreds of people are trying to get their kids enrolled in a fancy school... when a few days earlier Earth got an expiration date by a giant bug that had been taking out entire cities. Earth was going nuts during the waiting period -the filler had people hiding in bunkers- yet here they are just planning their future and going to the park, people keep commuting to work, Krilin who couldn't believe Goku was so relaxed, is now singing, I cannot buy this planet just got a death sentence.

I think Cell got defeated by Vegeta or Trunks, explaining why Goku and Gohan don't need to master SS, why Vegeta isn't training his ass off, why life is resuming to normal, why Chichi is so obsessed with school again, and why people are just having a ball. I like to believe they were celebrating their victory at the park.
You forgot the biggest red flag of them all: Vegetas presence at the picnic! It's enough of a stretch to begin with, but with the Cell Games days away? Yeah, no.

Like Masenko laid out, Movies 5, 8 and 13 only work by fluke. And even movie 5 ahas some inconsistencies.

Movie 1 on the other hand, is clearly more in line with the three preceeding DB movies and providing an alternate scenario to an event in the series. Every movie after that is clearly meant to be post-saga based on current information.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:27 pm

MrSatan2099 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:55 am there's a real canon example of that idea with the Future Trunks Story. So maybe all of these alternate versions of the characters are out there in the ether just like Future Trunks exists in his own world.
I think the only difference here is that Mirai Trunks story is set in a parallel timeline, while the movies, in a parallel world, I think that in Dragon Ball, in the concepts of a parallel timeline, everything needs to be accurate to the main timeline as we know, being able to just differ from the original by having a changing the course of the events, and characters being born, or not being born (ex: Goten, Pan and Bra), or dying (ex: almost everyone).
While in the concepts of a parallel world, everything can change, new characters can exist (ex: every movie villain), others can't (ex: Red ribbon in DB movie 3), and the course of the events aren't necessarily changed, they can be completelly different from the beginning.
Due to that, a character like, Turles for example, can't exist in the Future Trunks timeline. Turles only exists in the Tree of Might continuity because that world allowed him to exist, there wasn't a charge of course that resulted in the birth of a bad guy who's similar to Goku. The main timeline allowed Goten to exist, but that only happened because of the FTrunks returning back in time, that was a change in the course of the events.
It's almost like saying that a parallel world is actually a different universe, also, thanks ^^
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:33 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:45 am Dragon Ball Heroes and the Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission manga serve as separated sequels to Dragon Ball GT.

The Time Patrollers in that game are the GT characters after the series ended, and according to VegettoEX, the manga seemingly is a follow-up to that series too. But you'd have to ask him for more details, I can't tell you if this is indeed the case.
After the 100 year time skip? I actually discounted heroes here, that is a mix of several continuities into one, but to consider what you said, I personaly like to believe that Heroes started in another alternate version of continuity #1, I can't see anything of that happening in that continuity as we know. Also thanks for the link.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:04 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:48 am my minor nitpick is that the Broly movie cannot take place in the main continuity, not just because of the non-permanent SS, but because it's a peaceful air they are breathing. The gang is having a picnic, Chichi is planning Gohan's next year, and not just the Son family, hundreds of people are trying to get their kids enrolled in a fancy school... when a few days earlier Earth got an expiration date by a giant bug that had been taking out entire cities. Earth was going nuts during the waiting period -the filler had people hiding in bunkers- yet here they are just planning their future and going to the park, people keep commuting to work, Krilin who couldn't believe Goku was so relaxed, is now singing, I cannot buy this planet just got a death sentence.
I think for now, I can only explain that with a out-universe thought. Basically all of the hero characters in every dragon ball movie needs to be in a peaceful scenario in the beginning, the movies never can start with them already facing a situation, basically they all have this pattern: something related to the main villain is show up -> title card -> characters having some slice of life moments -> the main villain's actions start to interfere in their lifes -> battle happens.
That even happened with the last movie, with the beginning totally focused in introducing (re-introducing actually) the main villains, then we see our heroes in a 100% slice of life scenario until Gamma 2 shows up.
With that in mind, for me it's totally understandable for the Broly movie starting in that way, I can't imagine they wanting to expose the Cell Games in a non-canon movie, as for people being so relaxed in the movie, but in the anime, they still being scared, well, maybe everyone was already putting their hopes in Mr. Satan, this is the only explanation I can give, and I'm 100% sure that even though the Warriors traveled to space, Cell would keep his promise and stay on his ring until the start of the Games, and it's clearly not everyone who stopped their lifes just because of Cell, some of the same filler eps still shows people living normally or going to work, and we literally see that the warriors weren't training for the whole time.
I think Cell got defeated by Vegeta or Trunks.
By Trunks I can't believe, but by Vegeta, then Final Flash would need to have oblitared him, that's the only possibility I can think of.
explaining why Goku and Gohan don't need to master SS
But don't both of them go SSJFP in the movie? The only difference I believe is that Gohan looks weaker in the movie.
why Vegeta isn't training his ass off, why life is resuming to normal, why Chichi is so obsessed with school again, and why people are just having a ball. I like to believe they were celebrating their victory at the park.
There is Kuririn singing that love-ish song, I saw some people seeing that it could be a tribute to Android 18, because of the likelihood that she died in this continuity.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:23 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:18 am That's the thing "all the movies take place in the same universe" people don't want to accept but is the truth. Both the Lord Slug and first Coola movie -for example- take place after Namek but only one of them addresses that Goku has the ability to become Super Saiyan due to where the manga/tv series where at during the time of release.
I didn't get very well what you meant here, you're saying that only one of the movies shows that Goku can turn into a SSJ? or that only one of them shows that he already can go SSJ? Goku can't transform into SSJ againt Cooler from the beginning, can't False SSJ count a as key for the door? We all know what washis purpose after all.
We can actually pinpoint the first Broli movie taking place in late March (so a good 10 months after the Cell saga) by Chi Chi mentioning Gohan's spring break has ended. Like the majority of Z movies it wants to set itself "after current conflict in the manga/show ended" but doesn't have the foresight to know what's going to happen (in this case Goku dying at the Cell Games which happened in the manga only a few days before release)
That's a really good thought that I actually got in mind for a while, but while that works in some of the movies, in some others, don't, Movies 2 and 3 for example, Movie 2 was produced and released after Saiyans arc have already ended in both anime and manga, and in Movie 3 we have Lakasei (or Rasin, still can't remember which one of the two) mentioning Freeza, implying that he's alive (or maybe not? Maybe he was already dead but Turles and his men weren't aware?)
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:28 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:23 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:18 am That's the thing "all the movies take place in the same universe" people don't want to accept but is the truth. Both the Lord Slug and first Coola movie -for example- take place after Namek but only one of them addresses that Goku has the ability to become Super Saiyan due to where the manga/tv series where at during the time of release.
I didn't get very well what you meant here, you're saying that only one of the movies shows that Goku can turn into a SSJ? or that only one of them shows that he already can go SSJ? Goku can't transform into SSJ againt Cooler from the beginning, can't False SSJ count a as key for the door? We all know what washis purpose after all.
In the Lord Slug movie Goku turns into "False Super Saiyan" and Kaio questions if he had become a Super Saiyan i.e its made explicitly clear that Goku had never become a Super Saiyan before that time. In the Coola movie, he can became a Super Saiyan. Again both movies are set after Namek but only one of those movies follows up on Goku becoming a Super Saiyan while still on Namek. The movies do not and cannot exist in the same timeline

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:45 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:59 am You forgot the biggest red flag of them all: Vegetas presence at the picnic! It's enough of a stretch to begin with, but with the Cell Games days away? Yeah, no.

Like Masenko laid out, Movies 5, 8 and 13 only work by fluke. And even movie 5 ahas some inconsistencies.

Movie 1 on the other hand, is clearly more in line with the three preceeding DB movies and providing an alternate scenario to an event in the series. Every movie after that is clearly meant to be post-saga based on current information.
I disagree, firstly, The Garlic Jr. Arc Implies that Raditz and all of the later events actually happened just like as they are in the regular continuity, and not all of the movies can be post-saga based on current manga material. Movie 3 for example, what about that line mentioning Freeza? Movie 10 definitely also can't be after a possible death of Majin Boo right after his awakening, the movie was released when his fight against Majin Vegeta was still about to start in the manga, and Movie 11 the same thing, Gohan was already training in the Kaioshin world and Gohan and Trunks were already training the fusion dance in the manga when the Movie came out, they definitely were waiting to see what would happen next, setting the events of the movie happening right after Goku returned to the Other World
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:57 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:04 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:48 am my minor nitpick is that the Broly movie cannot take place in the main continuity, not just because of the non-permanent SS, but because it's a peaceful air they are breathing. The gang is having a picnic, Chichi is planning Gohan's next year, and not just the Son family, hundreds of people are trying to get their kids enrolled in a fancy school... when a few days earlier Earth got an expiration date by a giant bug that had been taking out entire cities. Earth was going nuts during the waiting period -the filler had people hiding in bunkers- yet here they are just planning their future and going to the park, people keep commuting to work, Krilin who couldn't believe Goku was so relaxed, is now singing, I cannot buy this planet just got a death sentence.
I think for now, I can only explain that with a out-universe thought. Basically all of the hero characters in every dragon ball movie needs to be in a peaceful scenario in the beginning, the movies never can start with them already facing a situation, basically they all have this pattern: something related to the main villain is show up -> title card -> characters having some slice of life moments -> the main villain's actions start to interfere in their lifes -> battle happens.
That even happened with the last movie, with the beginning totally focused in introducing (re-introducing actually) the main villains, then we see our heroes in a 100% slice of life scenario until Gamma 2 shows up.
With that in mind, for me it's totally understandable for the Broly movie starting in that way, I can't imagine they wanting to expose the Cell Games in a non-canon movie, as for people being so relaxed in the movie, but in the anime, they still being scared, well, maybe everyone was already putting their hopes in Mr. Satan, this is the only explanation I can give, and I'm 100% sure that even though the Warriors traveled to space, Cell would keep his promise and stay on his ring until the start of the Games, and it's clearly not everyone who stopped their lifes just because of Cell, some of the same filler eps still shows people living normally or going to work, and we literally see that the warriors weren't training for the whole time.
I think Cell got defeated by Vegeta or Trunks.
By Trunks I can't believe, but by Vegeta, then Final Flash would need to have oblitared him, that's the only possibility I can think of.
explaining why Goku and Gohan don't need to master SS
But don't both of them go SSJFP in the movie? The only difference I believe is that Gohan looks weaker in the movie.
why Vegeta isn't training his ass off, why life is resuming to normal, why Chichi is so obsessed with school again, and why people are just having a ball. I like to believe they were celebrating their victory at the park.
There is Kuririn singing that love-ish song, I saw some people seeing that it could be a tribute to Android 18, because of the likelihood that she died in this continuity.
I was actually thinking of 2nd form Cell, so either saiyan could do it. But it's all the same, still a deal big enough for Goku and Gohan to surrender to Chichi wanting them to let the yellow go, because there's no need for it anymore.

I could understand not everybody being worried about the upcoming doom, there's always a wacko who doesn't buy it, as long as they are the minority, but in the film they are the majority. Literally everybody in the Broly movie had no other concern besides getting their kids to school for the upcoming school year. That collides with the Cell arc entirely, where people were just leaving town and whatnot. Here, they are willing to stay and send their kids to school.
I thought about Mr. Satan being the reason for it, but he had just been introduced in the anime around the time the movie was released, in the manga he wasn't as trust worthy just yet, and production might've started around the time his manga introduction happened.
Vegeta just spending time with people he hates when there's a Cell to beat, also doesn't add up. Them leaving the planet and forgetting about Cell also implies there's nothing to worry about on Earth, even Roshi tagged along.

Something funny I just found out, the Bojack movie was released during the 25th TB. So, the japanese audiences were already dealing with "adult" Gohan, and bam, they got a movie about Kid Gohan.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:05 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:28 pm In the Lord Slug movie Goku turns into "False Super Saiyan" and Kaio questions if he had become a Super Saiyan i.e its made explicitly clear that Goku had never become a Super Saiyan before that time. In the Coola movie, he can became a Super Saiyan. Again both movies are set after Namek but only one of those movies follows up on Goku becoming a Super Saiyan while still on Namek. The movies do not and cannot exist in the same timeline
Correction, in the Cooler movie, he can't become a Super Saiyan until the end. Goku doesn't know how to transform into a Super Saiyan until the ending when Final Form Cooler was preparing to destroy the Earth, his limit until before that moment is clearly the Kaioken, the actual canon serves as a proof that SSJ is a reason for Goku to retire the Kaioken (and yeah, I know he uses the Kaioken in Movie 6, but his battle against Metal Cooler implies that he wasn't aware that the single Metal cooler was pretty much in a Android 16 level, so he probably used Kaioken as a test), if Goku already knew how to transform into SSJ since the beginning of the movie, then there was no reason for him to let Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn almost die, and all the drama that the movie builds, from Goku getting angry for not being able to win, to him healing the bird, clearly shows for us that in this continuity, Goku transformed into a SSJ for the first time, against Final Form Cooler. This movie and Slug can indeed exist in the same continuity.
The Slug movie also clearly want us to believe that Goku couldn't control False SSJ, since False SSJ doesn't seen to be controllable form, so in that case
Goku's limit is Kaioken -> Goku fights Slug -> Slug makes Goku turn into False SSJ unconsciously -> Goku "loses" False SSJ and his limit is Kaioken again -> Goku fights Cooler -> Cooler Transforms into his Final Form -> Final Form Cooler makes Goku turn into SSJ -> Goku's limit from that moment is SSJ and he transforms when he wants.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Grimlock » Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:22 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:33 pmAfter the 100 year time skip?
In Goku's case, we don't know. In everyone else's case, pretty sure it's not. In regards to Goku, I prefer to assume he becomes a Time Patroller at some point during the timeskip, just like everyone else.

As for Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission, yes. It's way after the one-hundred timeskip, if I remember correctly.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:27 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:05 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:28 pm In the Lord Slug movie Goku turns into "False Super Saiyan" and Kaio questions if he had become a Super Saiyan i.e its made explicitly clear that Goku had never become a Super Saiyan before that time. In the Coola movie, he can became a Super Saiyan. Again both movies are set after Namek but only one of those movies follows up on Goku becoming a Super Saiyan while still on Namek. The movies do not and cannot exist in the same timeline
Correction, in the Cooler movie, he can't become a Super Saiyan until the end. Goku doesn't know how to transform into a Super Saiyan until the ending when Final Form Cooler was preparing to destroy the Earth, his limit until before that moment is clearly the Kaioken, the actual canon serves as a proof that SSJ is a reason for Goku to retire the Kaioken (and yeah, I know he uses the Kaioken in Movie 6, but his battle against Metal Cooler implies that he wasn't aware that the single Metal cooler was pretty much in a Android 16 level, so he probably used Kaioken as a test), if Goku already knew how to transform into SSJ since the beginning of the movie, then there was no reason for him to let Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn almost die, and all the drama that the movie builds, from Goku getting angry for not being able to win, to him healing the bird, clearly shows for us that in this continuity, Goku transformed into a SSJ for the first time, against Final Form Cooler. This movie and Slug can indeed exist in the same continuity.
The Slug movie also clearly want us to believe that Goku couldn't control False SSJ, since False SSJ doesn't seen to be controllable form, so in that case
Goku's limit is Kaioken -> Goku fights Slug -> Slug makes Goku turn into False SSJ unconsciously -> Goku "loses" False SSJ and his limit is Kaioken again -> Goku fights Cooler -> Cooler Transforms into his Final Form -> Final Form Cooler makes Goku turn into SSJ -> Goku's limit from that moment is SSJ and he transforms when he wants.
Huh? The Coola movie is a follow up to the Freeza arc where Goku became a Super Saiyan on Namek. That wasn't his first time becoming a Super Saiyan.

Lord Slug movie= Never became a Super Saiyan even on Namek since Kaio wonders if that form was Goku becoming a Super Saiyan

Coola movie= Became a Super Saiyan on Namek and then again in the showdown with Coola

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:31 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:57 pm I was actually thinking of 2nd form Cell, so either saiyan could do it. But it's all the same, still a deal big enough for Goku and Gohan to surrender to Chichi wanting them to let the yellow go, because there's no need for it anymore.

I could understand not everybody being worried about the upcoming doom, there's always a wacko who doesn't buy it, as long as they are the minority, but in the film they are the majority. Literally everybody in the Broly movie had no other concern besides getting their kids to school for the upcoming school year. That collides with the Cell arc entirely, where people were just leaving town and whatnot. Here, they are willing to stay and send their kids to school.
I thought about Mr. Satan being the reason for it, but he had just been introduced in the anime around the time the movie was released, in the manga he wasn't as trust worthy just yet, and production might've started around the time his manga introduction happened.
Vegeta just spending time with people he hates when there's a Cell to beat, also doesn't add up. Them leaving the planet and forgetting about Cell also implies there's nothing to worry about on Earth, even Roshi tagged along.

Something funny I just found out, the Bojack movie was released during the 25th TB. So, the japanese audiences were already dealing with "adult" Gohan, and bam, they got a movie about Kid Gohan.
While I tried to explain, In the bottom, I actually agree, but I still think that is the fault of the "movies needs to start in a slice of life scenario" pattern, and that they don't want to expose arc material in the movies, and actually there's one thing I forgot.
If we really go with that idea of Vegeta Dai Ni Dankai or Trunks Dai San Dankai defeating Semi Perfect Cell, then that means there is no reason for them to achieve the SSJFP form, which enters in conflict with my theory that Vegeta and Trunks actually used SSJFP against Broly and Bojack, like, honestly, at least for me, none of the two look very muscular in both movies, they don't even have veins. In Cell Games, both of the two stop using SSJ DND and DSD, for me they definitely use SSJFP in Movie 8 and 9, or there's a official source stating that they used those forms in these movies? I honestly don't know.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:44 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:27 pm Huh? The Coola movie is a follow up to the Freeza arc where Goku became a Super Saiyan on Namek. That wasn't his first time becoming a Super Saiyan.

Lord Slug movie= Never became a Super Saiyan even on Namek since Kaio wonders if that form was Goku becoming a Super Saiyan

Coola movie= Became a Super Saiyan on Namek and then again in the showdown with Coola
Wrong, firstly, why Goku is in Earth? If it's a follow up to SSJ Goku beating Freeza, then he should be in Yardorat, there's also no Vegeta or Trunks or Freeza returning, Salza says to Cooler that Freeza is dead, implying that the Genki dama killed him (same case of Slug movie), Goku is wearing his Namek gi, Kuririn also is wearing his Namek gi which is the same gi that he uses when Goku returns to earth, Gohan is still with his Namek haircut, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE told Goku to Transform, if in this continuity, he really turned into SSJ in Namek, then we would have...Gohan saying "Dad, use the SSJ against Cooler!", but not even that happened, do you really think Goku wouldn't use SSJ against Coller from the beginning? Why did he used Kaioken? Why he had difficulty to turn into SSJ? The movie makes all of this very clear for all of us.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:00 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:44 pm
Wrong, firstly, why Goku is in Earth?
Because the movie went into production before Toei knew Goku was going to stay in space for a while after Namek. Same reason he didn't just instantly become Super Saiyan since the movie was made before Toei knew that was going to be a thing. Doesn't change the fact that Goku becoming a Super Saiyan is not treated as something he's never done before.

So much of the problems people have with the movies would be answered if they looked at where the manga and tv series were at in relation to when the movie came out.

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