Are Base Goku/Vegeta God-Level or Not?

[Hero]

I haven't watched the Super anime outside of some clips on YouTube. I did watch the 2019 Broly movie and the recent "Superhero" movie, however, and was confused on one aspect.

In the end of Battle of Gods, base Goku is shown to have god ki as he can still keep up with Beerus. It's safe to say that his newly godly base is far above his prior SSJ3 level. In RoF, base Goku can keep up with post-training final form Frieza. This should put base Goku and Vegeta far above the other fighters on earth. And though it's never stated that they can't go regular SSJ, the implication of the movie is that SSJGSSJ/SSJB is their new default transformation.

However in the new Broly movie, Goku and Vegeta go regular SSJ before going SSJG. Does that mean they have two bases? One normal ki base and one godly ki base? Were they retconnned in Super to only having a normal ki base? Is their no definitive answer given in Super?

[Hugo Boss]

What you described is basically a plot hole created by Dragon Ball’s “gardening” writing style. Or some may say it‘s a soft retcon, but it’s definitely not that simple.

At least, I will have you know there is only one base/regular Saiyan form, the anime never acknowledged the existence of two base Saiyan forms or that they ever had godly ki as Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue do.

However, depending on who is writing an episode, you could have a Base Saiyan with power equivalent to Super Saiyan God (again, just the power, not the ki type) or being pushed back by Krillin. It goes back and forth on this loop several times. After watching and rewatching, you can figure out on your own which instance is A or B, or even something in-between.

Personally, I think bringing back yellow-haired Super Saiyan forms was a matter of time, given their popularity, but story-wise ditching them would be the best.

If you want to read a little more consistent approach to this Saiyan evolution line, I would recommend reading the Dragon Ball Super manga instead. There are fights in which Goku shows off practically all the Saiyan forms.

[Koitsukai]

Hugo pretty much said it all.

The anime goes back and forth with it, the manga doesn't have them as strong. By now they might be as strong as SS3 in their base forms, not higher. Maybe it doesn't matter anymore, because Uub may have been "retconned", but if Uub is as strong as Kid Buu, in EoZ, then base Goku shouldn't be that much stronger.

BoG and RoF had that god base thing, but in Broly who knows, they only fought a brand new guy, though I doubt Broly's base was already that much stronger than a BoG SSG.

[ZombieVito]

They don't have 2 bases. They just grew stronger in base than the Boo arc high tier characters by training with Whis/SSG ritual.

People like to downplay them in the manga but they are just as strong there as well.

[batistabus]

The answer seems to be no...at the moment, anyway.

Between Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, Toriyama did some interviews. In at least one, he talks about how Goku had absorbed the power of God without needing the transformation. So, back to your question: at the time, it seemed like the answer to your question would have been "yes".

Q: Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
A: I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -toriyama/

In Resurrection F, SSBSS is described as Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Based on Toriyama's quote, SSB could be viewed as "what happens when Goku tries to transform into Super Saiyan now that he has fully absorbed God ki." In BoG, Goku uses Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God already (while still looking like a normal Super Saiyan), so Blue might just be a refined version of that. In that case, and based on the fact that Goku implies he had stabilized the form (by criticizing Freeza for being too hasty with his transformation), there would be no reason to transform into regular Super Saiyan.

However, in the Universe 6 arc, the U7 Saiyans can turn into Super Saiyan without incorporating god ki. In the manga version, Goku can also turn into the red-haired Super Saiyan God (the anime did this later and again in Broly). If he had already fully absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God without needing to transform, what happens when he uses the God transformation on top of that? Is it Super Saiyan God x2? The source material never implies that, and if that was the case, it certainly would have. In the subsequent arcs (especially in the case of the manga, but also through anime Vegeta's SSBE), we find out just how much more was required to master SSB.

It's a soft retcon. While you could logic your way into thinking the lesser-than-SSB forms would never come back, it was always feasible that the Saiyans could still transform into their lesser forms. As a practical battle strategy, it allows Goku and Vegeta to gauge their opponents while conserving strength. Ultimately, as the series continued long after Battle of Gods, the authors dialed back Goku's mastery of God ki. It has become a journey for him, and it's still playing out through Migatte no Gokui. Also...it's fanservice to cycle through all the forms every once in a while.

This history is kind of similar to the Makaioshin concept. Toriyama introduced the concept of Demon Realm Kaioshin (that inspired the villains from DBSSH, although they're not exactly the same) in guidebook interviews back in the day. For the main series, those ideas never played out; instead, we got Gods of Destruction. Even if Toriyama says something in an interview, it's not the final word unless/until it appears in the series (even if it is hinted at in the source material, and unless you're DBH [where anything goes]).

[theherodjl]

There is a sort of 'two-base' thing but it's not two different base forms, rather, one collection of forms having "normal" Ki and another collection having "God" Ki. Whenever Goku & Vegeta are in base/SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3, they are in "normal-Ki-mode". Whenever they are in SSJG/any variation of SSJB/any variation of UI/UE, they are in "God-Ki-mode". With that being said, there doesn't seem to actually be any innate power difference between normal Ki & God Ki like it was initially believed, it's just that God Ki happens to appear in newer forms that are stronger than the SSJ forms of the past. If you took away the God Ki aspects of all of the forms introduced in DBS, they'd all still be the same forms that are higher than SSJ3, just with normal Ki instead.

[Hero]

Between Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, Toriyama did some interviews. In at least one, he talks about how Goku had absorbed the power of God without needing the transformation. So, back to your question: at the time, it seemed like the answer to your question would have been "yes".

On top of that, the end of BoG clearly shows that Goku has absorbed "god power" since he's able to hang with Beerus despite being in base. Even my wife, who hasn't watched Dragon Ball Z, and my mom, whose second language is English, were able to figure that out. As vague as God ki was in the movie, Goku absorbing the power of SSJG was really clear to see.

In that case, and based on the fact that Goku implies he had stabilized the form (by criticizing Freeza for being too hasty with his transformation), there would be no reason to transform into regular Super Saiyan.

I had a feeling the normal SSJ forms would return due to fanservice. But yeah, in RoF it seemed that Goku had his new godly base and SSJGSSJ, and the old forms were obsolete.

the manga version, Goku can also turn into the red-haired Super Saiyan God (the anime did this later and again in Broly). If he had already fully absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God without needing to transform, what happens when he uses the God transformation on top of that? Is it Super Saiyan God x2?

I haven't read the manga, but Goku going SSJG in the Broly movie confused the hell out of me since it meant Goku wasn't "god mode" while in base and SSJ. I took the SSJG form as Goku channeling the god ki he had absorbed in the Beerus fight, which I have no problem with. It's fine for Goku to go between normal mode and god mode as long as Super makes it clear he can do that.

It's a soft retcon

I was going to say that it's a hard retcon for me. But now that I think about it, BoG and RoF never state that Goku can't go back to normal mode. It's still unnecessarily confusing, though. Dragon Ball and DBZ never confused me with its power scaling, but Super does. The difference between a normal base and a godly base is so absurdly large that I, as the viewer, need to know when each is being used. It's literally larger than the gap between base and SSJ3. Imagine if the Buu saga somehow never showed when Goku was in base or if he was SSJ3. It feels like that to me.

Edit: It's a different topic, but Beerus' ever changing power also confuses me. Even if you don't take the 6, 10 and 15 gap to be true, BoG does state that Beerus had to use 70% of his power against Goku. I don't know if Super's version of the arc had that line, though. But now Beerus is apparently above a SSJB Goku using a 20x kaioken? Just how strong is Beerus now?

[Issei189]

Edit: It's a different topic, but Beerus' ever changing power also confuses me. Even if you don't take the 6, 10 and 15 gap to be true, BoG does state that Beerus had to use 70% of his power against Goku. I don't know if Super's version of the arc had that line, though. But now Beerus is apparently above a SSJB Goku using a 20x kaioken? Just how strong is Beerus now?

That 70% line wasn't mentioned in the DBS version and Whis's line about SSB Goku and Vegeta being strong enough to beat Beerus while fighting together was also cut out from the anime version of ROF, so yeah Beerus's power was indeed retconned in DBS. Currently he's stronger than Goku's highest state Ultra Instinct.

[Hero]

Edit: It's a different topic, but Beerus' ever changing power also confuses me. Even if you don't take the 6, 10 and 15 gap to be true, BoG does state that Beerus had to use 70% of his power against Goku. I don't know if Super's version of the arc had that line, though. But now Beerus is apparently above a SSJB Goku using a 20x kaioken? Just how strong is Beerus now?

That 70% line wasn't mentioned in the DBS version and Whis's line about SSB Goku and Vegeta being strong enough to beat Beerus while fighting together was also cut out from the anime version of ROF, so yeah Beerus's power was indeed retconned in DBS. Currently he's stronger than Goku's highest state Ultra Instinct.

Jesus Christ lol. As in, the UI Goku uses even in the Granola arc?

If Beerus is stronger than Black Frieza, then I'll just laugh.

[Hugo Boss]

It's a different topic, but Beerus' ever changing power also confuses me. Even if you don't take the 6, 10 and 15 gap to be true, BoG does state that Beerus had to use 70% of his power against Goku. I don't know if Super's version of the arc had that line, though. But now Beerus is apparently above a SSJB Goku using a 20x kaioken? Just how strong is Beerus now?

Since you seem to be interested in strength related discussion, do you mind redirecting this question to the sticked Super thread?

We will all be glad to participate in there.

[Koitsukai]

Edit: It's a different topic, but Beerus' ever changing power also confuses me. Even if you don't take the 6, 10 and 15 gap to be true, BoG does state that Beerus had to use 70% of his power against Goku. I don't know if Super's version of the arc had that line, though. But now Beerus is apparently above a SSJB Goku using a 20x kaioken? Just how strong is Beerus now?

That 70% line wasn't mentioned in the DBS version and Whis's line about SSB Goku and Vegeta being strong enough to beat Beerus while fighting together was also cut out from the anime version of ROF, so yeah Beerus's power was indeed retconned in DBS. Currently he's stronger than Goku's highest state Ultra Instinct.

Jesus Christ lol. As in, the UI Goku uses even in the Granola arc?

If Beerus is stronger than Black Frieza, then I'll just laugh.

Stronger than the people oneshotting that iteration of UI, too.

I'd encourage you to laugh, buuut Black Freeza is implied to be the one shifting the balance of the universe (I guess that would be surpassing the hakaishin of the universe), so he might be stronger.
He probably won't be, and still be worlds behind Beerus. I wouldn't be surprised if they meet each other and Freeza is still scared of a non chalant Beerus.

[dragonball0900]

Nah, they are not. That was obviously retconned. Otherwise, pretty much every character would have to be stronger than SSG Goku which doesn't make sense with the context of the story.

I have the Base Saiyans at BEST weaker than SSJ2 Kid Gohan as implied in the manga Future Trunks Arc during the Goku vs Trunks fight.

[Goku9001]

At the end of Battle of Gods, we are told that Goku had retained the power of Super Saiyan God in his Super Saiyan form. Considering how the Z Senshi were capable of sensing Super Saiyan Goku's ki, that would mean that Goku was no longer using god ki. The reason why his regular power reached god power was due to his body internalizing the experience he had by experiencing Super Saiyan God. By doing so, his body retained its power, not its ki. This was firmly established in the movie and then was translated to the anime as well.

At the time of the movie, the intention was for Goku to retain the power of Super Saiyan God and presumably its ki in his Base form. Super Saiyan God would essentially function as Goku's new Base form so that going Super Saiyan would result in Super Saiyan Blue. This was changed by allowing Goku and Vegeta to have access to all Super Saiyan forms so that Super Saiyan Blue is the result of Goku/Vegeta going Super Saiyan when using the Super Saiyan God transformation. As such, it seems that Goku and Vegeta's Base level were god-level and then had access to higher transformations on top of that.

This gets tricky though because there were different writers working on the anime so Goku and Vegeta's Base levels seem to fluctuate between different episodes, most notably closer to the Tournament of Power. I would say they were consistently made out to be God-level in at least their Super Saiyan forms up until the Tournament of Power where their Base level had to have been "nerfed" to make sense of some of their battles.

We've had instances where Base Vegeta (for simplicity) easily trashed SSJ3 Gotenks, SSJ2 Goku fighting at a God-level in a later arc, and Base Goku fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan 3 Goku when sparring with Beerus again. We've had an episode where Base Goku's arms were literally shaking when fighting Roshi yet another level where Base Goku fights Gohan who had surpassed his Buu Arc self and Roshi even is astonished by their speed and power and could hardly track them. We've also had episodes where Base Goku and Vegeta were seen struggling against opponents that Android 18 and other Z Senshi could fight or where Base Goku was struggling in a training session with Piccolo (who is weaker than Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan).

There's definitely an upward trend in how strong the Saiyans are getting relative to other fighters but a clear inconsistency in how their Base forms are portrayed. This makes it nearly impossible to get a sharp fix on their Base levels. I'd say in most cases they were perceived to be God-level outside of maybe the entire Universe 6 Tournament and then during the final anime arc, you would have to use your best judgment as to what level the writer chose to have him at this specific moment in time.

[Hugo Boss]

Speaking of Beerus, the anime doesn’t have the “nearly 70%” line, but it has him using 10% of his power to fight Vegeta in his rage-indulged powered-up state.

The first time Beerus is ever implied to be surpassed (aside from angels and Zeno) was in the Tournament of Power arc, when Whis told Goku there is a universe in which lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can’t defeat, and that God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus. Presumably Whis was talking about Jiren and Vermoud.

When Goku manages to turn the tables on Jiren with ultra instinct it’s heavily implied he has surpassed Beerus too, though this is only a thing in the anime. The manga has a totally different direction on Beerus’ power hierarchy. He may be even stronger than Black Freeza there.

[SSJgogeto]

"Are Base Goku/Vegeta God-Level or Not?"

Not anymore.

I consider we have three "base forms" in the anime/movies:

1 - Base form
2 - Base form after absorbing the power of SSGod
3 - The "Beyond God" form

The difference between 2 and 3 is ki control, Goku absorbed the "god power" but he couldn't control it effectively until his first train with Whis. Because of this training, he and Vegeta achieved the "Beyond God" form, which is not only much more powerful than the previous form but is also the way to achieve SS Blue.

However, IMO the "Beyond God" is just another step in their training, and they discarded this form some time later.

[Almighty Majin]

They're not God level in base, but they definitely are not Buu arc level like many people like to believe. I think Z-era levels of power became irrelevant after RoF (except maybe Super Vegito). People just don't like the idea of characters like Cabba and Frost being stronger than Buu saga high tiers even though this is par for the course in DB (see: Raditz and the Androids). Power creep has been a consistent thing in this franchise, it's just something that has to be accepted as wacky as it seems.

[Miracles]

If anyone is interested...

"Apparently, you haven't realized it, yourself. Your Super Saiyan god time ran out a good while ago. It seems as though while you had turned god and were fighting me, you absorbed that world into your body. Which is why, even though you've returned to normal, you haven't powered down all that much. You're something else."~Beerus BOG.

"It appears your Super Saiyan god powers did not disappear due to some time limit. Rather the power completely fused within your very being. The god's red brilliance...is still burning brightly in you like a flame."~Beerus Episode 13.

"You scrape together the power of five Saiyans...and get a patchwork-like Super Saiyan god. You made it your own and perfected it..." ~ Beerus Episode 14.

So, Goku has the powers of god in his body, which powered up his base and Super Saiyan modes but they are still a "powered down" version of Red.

Therefore his base has no godly presence like red and blue as evidence in the anime. People can still sense his normal state.
Even in the manga, the gods comment on Goku's godly presence when he goes red. They don't say the same for his other modes.

viewtopic.php?p=1410618#p1410618

[ZombieVito]

They're not God level in base, but they definitely are not Buu arc level like many people like to believe. I think Z-era levels of power became irrelevant after RoF (except maybe Super Vegito). People just don't like the idea of characters like Cabba and Frost being stronger than Buu saga high tiers even though this is par for the course in DB (see: Raditz and the Androids). Power creep has been a consistent thing in this franchise, it's just something that has to be accepted as wacky as it seems.

Exactly.

Another thing to note is First Form Freeza being stronger than Boo arc Super Saiyan tier and nothing in the entirety of Super even implies that the boost of his transformations are any different than Namek so Final Form Freeza in RoF is over 100 times (226 in fact if he uses 100%) stronger than said tier. It's a fact base Goku fought this Freeza so he simply is stronger than everyone in the Boo arc besides Vegetto.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

As much shit as I (and everyone else) give the manga, I think Toyotaro did it best: Goku doesn't absorb SSJG in the manga, and RoF happens off screen so he avoids the "Saiyan Beyond God" thing altogether. Since Toyotaro is rather close to Toriyama, I suspect he might have talked his sensei into turning around and retconning Goku's level down. Not only the golden SSJ forms and SSJG come back, but it would also be easier to make old characters like Piccolo play semi-relevant roles (though he could also just go the 17 route and make them all super strong, but 17 is special I guess).

The anime tends to oscilate on this as others mentioned, but I think Freeza being in Base Goku's level in RoF and then being SSJG level in the Tournament of Power (He beat up Dyspo who had SSJG Goku in the ropes) shows they've entertained the idea of a retcon.

Don't let that fool you though: Base Goku might not be god level, but he's naturally still leaps and bounds above what he was in the Boo Saga by virtue of his godly training.

[ZombieVito]

As much shit as I (and everyone else) give the manga, I think Toyotaro did it best: Goku doesn't absorb SSJG in the manga, and RoF happens off screen so he avoids the "Saiyan Beyond God" thing altogether. Since Toyotaro is rather close to Toriyama, I suspect he might have talked his sensei into turning around and retconning Goku's level down. Not only the golden SSJ forms and SSJG come back, but it would also be easier to make old characters like Piccolo play semi-relevant roles (though he could also just go the 17 route and make them all super strong, but 17 is special I guess).

The anime tends to oscilate on this as others mentioned, but I think Freeza being in Base Goku's level in RoF and then being SSJG level in the Tournament of Power (He beat up Dyspo who had SSJG Goku in the ropes) shows they've entertained the idea of a retcon.

Don't let that fool you though: Base Goku might not be god level, but he's naturally still leaps and bounds above what he was in the Boo Saga by virtue of his godly training.

FF Freeza is not SSG level though. It's explained why he was beating Dyspo's speed but in the end Freeza still needed to turn Golden to keep up anyway.