Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

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Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by buutenks » Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:30 am

I haven't been on these forums in quite some time, so idk if this has been settled or not.

My take is he was neither ssj1 or ssj2, but inbetween.

When Kibito restored Gohan's power, he wasnt able to restore him to full power. So Gohan tried to go full power,aka ssj2 but could not, so he powered up to some semi ssj2 state. This is also supported by Gohan's hairstyle vs Dabura and the fact that Dabura is compared to Cell,who while not at full power was still above Mssj1 kid Gohan, let alone his FP self. And when Gohan tried to destroy Buu's egg he powered up, but still no sparks. I think this was intentional by Toriyama to show that Gohan wasnt at full strength.

Plus Goku never felt SPC power level, so he only has FP Cell to compare to. So a Gohan who is weaker than his kid self in a semi ssj2 form vs a FP Cell level opponent makes more sense than weaker ssj1 Gohan fighting a FP Cell level opponent.

Again if this has already been settled, I apologize.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:37 pm

I agree.
With Gohan, things are never as straight forward, so while Toriyama already settled this when he drew that chapter (with regular SS Gohan with no sparks) and this has just been mostly the fandom being fandom-y, I believe even if Gohan was SS2, it wasn't the SS2 type he displayed at the Cell Games or vs Bojack, or the one Goku was telling him to unlock once more, it wasn't a limit breaker SS2, a rage-fuelled form.

His hair wasn't like his regular SS vs Goten when they were training, it was more like SS2 but not quite. So if SS2 is 100, and SS is 50, vs Dabura he was 70-ish.

Also, Dabura was pretty much two-shot by a Fat Buu who was said to be weaker than SS2 Majin Vegeta, SS2 Gohan from 7 years ago was also weaker than the SS2s. This puts Initial Fat Buu pretty much on CG SS2 Gohan's level... so if he had been SS2 vs Dabura, even if he was weaker than when he was a child, he'd still would've had the upper hand vs Dabura.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:40 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:37 pm Also, Dabura was pretty much two-shot by a Fat Buu who was said to be weaker than SS2 Majin Vegeta, SS2 Gohan from 7 years ago was also weaker than the SS2s. This puts Initial Fat Buu pretty much on CG SS2 Gohan's level... so if he had been SS2 vs Dabura, even if he was weaker than when he was a child, he'd still would've had the upper hand vs Dabura.
You also said this in another thread about Fat Buu being weaker than Vegeta. Indeed he was, until he powered up and then two-shotted Dabra. His change in ki making Vegeta reconsider his initial assesement of Buu.
So Dabra wasn't two-shotted by someone weaker than Vegeta.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:51 pm

dbgtFO wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:40 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:37 pm Also, Dabura was pretty much two-shot by a Fat Buu who was said to be weaker than SS2 Majin Vegeta, SS2 Gohan from 7 years ago was also weaker than the SS2s. This puts Initial Fat Buu pretty much on CG SS2 Gohan's level... so if he had been SS2 vs Dabura, even if he was weaker than when he was a child, he'd still would've had the upper hand vs Dabura.
You also said this in another thread about Fat Buu being weaker than Vegeta. Indeed he was, until he powered up and then two-shotted Dabra. His change in ki making Vegeta reconsider his initial assesement of Buu.
So Dabra wasn't two-shotted by someone weaker than Vegeta.
Oh you are correct, my bad. For some reason I thought the power up was prior to Vegeta's comment.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by Lionel » Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:25 pm

Do we know for certain if Goku couldn't sense Cell's strength following his return? Keep in mind that Goku expressly went to King Kai's planet so that he could gain a better directional scope of where to find the Namekians on their new planet. I don't see why the same couldn't be done for a planet and its inhabitants he was all too familiar with. Cell's power should, in theory, be possible to register for Goku.

We can't say as to how powerful Gohan truly was against Dabura. The visual cues seem to lean towards regular Super Saiyan but when taking Goku's observations and Dabura's performance in the future timeline into account, he should be more comparable to Super Saiyan 2. If the external features were a product of not being sufficiently restored to full power then that begs the question of how Gohan could maintain such strength when he's alleging to have only half of his strength available in the final climax against Cell. Now personally I believe he may have been speaking with respect to his ability to use the Kamehameha and perhaps his confidence disrupting the condition of his ki but nonetheless he wasn't in a very good state at that time.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:18 pm

The anime, guidebooks and the Super manga all confirm that Dabura is SS2 tier so Gohan must have been a SS2 too.

Toriyama just screwed up.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:24 pm

The big thing here for me is Majin Vegeta, right when he gets possessed in the ship. You can't read those chapters and tell me he's weaker than Gohan. Was he already a SSJ2 there? If so what's his power up with Goku supposed to be?
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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:13 am

The Saiyans are sometimes seen fighting powerful opponents in their base/prior forms so evidently, they're able to tap into their full power and borrow some of it to either conserve their energy or for other reasons. I think Gohan fighting Dabra was the result of this: He certainly didn't want to risk giving Babidi a lot of his energy so he stayed in SSJ but at the same time, he wasn't quite at his best due to Kibito not being able to completely restore his lost power so Gohan settled for drawing on his SSJ2 power from his SSJ form. It was enough to more or less remain even with Dabra but Gohan probably would've needed to go full-on SSJ2 to turn the tide. That might very well have been where things were going...had Vegeta not been so mouthy.
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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by DBZ Expert » Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:49 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:18 pm The anime, guidebooks and the Super manga all confirm that Dabura is SS2 tier so Gohan must have been a SS2 too.

Toriyama just screwed up.
He likely was a SSjin 2 in the anime but that's because the anime always likes to make the characters at their strongest state. See Pure Boo > Gohan-Boo for example. The guidebooks contradict themselves when it comes to what Gohan's form was vs Dabura. The Super manga on firm Dabura is SSjin 2 tier? If anything the Trunks going SSjin 2 and defeats Dabura suggests that Dabura was actually fighting SSjin Gohan in the Manga.

Toriyama never Screwed up when it comes to the aura. It's obvious from the art and plot that Gohan was a SSjin. If anything, that was because it was still not known that Vegeta and Goku had SSjin 2 and that they surpassed CG Gohan so Toriyama wanted them to be relevant.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:35 am

If anybody screwed up was TOEI, regular SS Goku fought SS2 Vegeta for an entire episode. :crazy:

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by Lionel » Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:28 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:24 pm The big thing here for me is Majin Vegeta, right when he gets possessed in the ship. You can't read those chapters and tell me he's weaker than Gohan. Was he already a SSJ2 there? If so what's his power up with Goku supposed to be?
I think Vegeta before his possession and the subsequent potential unlock was more or loss on par with Kid Gohan; meaning that, yes, he did have SSJ2. A hypothetical fight between the two of them would be very close and intense. The increase from Babidi's sorcery wasn't anything too grand, I believe; owing to the fact that he had been undergoing intensive training for multiple years on end so his potential was probably already realised for the most part. Goku still had the advantage and so Vegeta seized upon an opportunity made available to him in order to bridge the gap.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:32 pm

DBZ Expert wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:49 am He likely was a SSjin 2 in the anime but that's because the anime always likes to make the characters at their strongest state. See Pure Boo > Gohan-Boo for example. The guidebooks contradict themselves when it comes to what Gohan's form was vs Dabura. The Super manga on firm Dabura is SSjin 2 tier? If anything the Trunks going SSjin 2 and defeats Dabura suggests that Dabura was actually fighting SSjin Gohan in the Manga.

Toriyama never Screwed up when it comes to the aura. It's obvious from the art and plot that Gohan was a SSjin. If anything, that was because it was still not known that Vegeta and Goku had SSjin 2 and that they surpassed CG Gohan so Toriyama wanted them to be relevant.
Dabura was actually confident in defeating SS2 Trunks (after being attacked by him) and Shin was needed to paralyze him for Trunks to kill him. He is SS2 tier.

Care to tell me where did the guidebooks contradict each other?

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by DBZ Expert » Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:39 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:32 pm
DBZ Expert wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:49 am He likely was a SSjin 2 in the anime but that's because the anime always likes to make the characters at their strongest state. See Pure Boo > Gohan-Boo for example. The guidebooks contradict themselves when it comes to what Gohan's form was vs Dabura. The Super manga on firm Dabura is SSjin 2 tier? If anything the Trunks going SSjin 2 and defeats Dabura suggests that Dabura was actually fighting SSjin Gohan in the Manga.

Toriyama never Screwed up when it comes to the aura. It's obvious from the art and plot that Gohan was a SSjin. If anything, that was because it was still not known that Vegeta and Goku had SSjin 2 and that they surpassed CG Gohan so Toriyama wanted them to be relevant.
Dabura was actually confident in defeating SS2 Trunks (after being attacked by him) and Shin was needed to paralyze him for Trunks to kill him. He is SS2 tier.

Care to tell me where did the guidebooks contradict each other?
Trunks was beating Dabura before Kaioshin paralyzed him. It's a similiar case with Beast Gohan vs Cell Max where Piccolo held him so Gohan can finish him off. Daizenshuu 7 says Gohan was a SSjin 2 but Daizenshuu 2 says Gohan only went SSjin 2 vs Kibito.

And Dabura never showed any confidence if beating Trunks.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by desu » Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:31 pm

I'm sure he was a regular SSJ. Several reasons as to why this seems to be the case:
1. Dabura was stated to be nearly as powerful as Cell.
2. Dabura had the upperhand during the fight and he wasn't using all his power.
3. Vegeta getting angry at Gohan for not using his full power (SSJ2) and making so many mistakes during the fight.
4. Vegeta telling Gohan he should've used all his power after the fight since killing Dabura could've turned Piccolo and Krilin back to normal. Gohan agreeing to this saying in his head stating he didn't think about it.
5. Not a single panel where Gohan had lighting. Toriyama isn't perfect but it was pretty clear when a character was using SSJ2. Toei also didn't draw lighting in a single scene.

So I think he was crearly a SSJ during this fight, since he wasn't trying to use his full power and wasn't angry to turn SSJ2

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:39 pm

DBZ Expert wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:39 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:32 pm
DBZ Expert wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:49 am He likely was a SSjin 2 in the anime but that's because the anime always likes to make the characters at their strongest state. See Pure Boo > Gohan-Boo for example. The guidebooks contradict themselves when it comes to what Gohan's form was vs Dabura. The Super manga on firm Dabura is SSjin 2 tier? If anything the Trunks going SSjin 2 and defeats Dabura suggests that Dabura was actually fighting SSjin Gohan in the Manga.

Toriyama never Screwed up when it comes to the aura. It's obvious from the art and plot that Gohan was a SSjin. If anything, that was because it was still not known that Vegeta and Goku had SSjin 2 and that they surpassed CG Gohan so Toriyama wanted them to be relevant.
Dabura was actually confident in defeating SS2 Trunks (after being attacked by him) and Shin was needed to paralyze him for Trunks to kill him. He is SS2 tier.

Care to tell me where did the guidebooks contradict each other?
Trunks was beating Dabura before Kaioshin paralyzed him. It's a similiar case with Beast Gohan vs Cell Max where Piccolo held him so Gohan can finish him off. Daizenshuu 7 says Gohan was a SSjin 2 but Daizenshuu 2 says Gohan only went SSjin 2 vs Kibito.

And Dabura never showed any confidence if beating Trunks.
Dabra shook off Trunks attacks and still believed he could handle Trunks. We can see that Trunks wasn't holding-back here.

Nothing really points to Dabra being in danger there.

But Kaioshin urging Trunks to hurry up and finish Dabra seemed to indicate that Trunks needed to end it while he was able to restrain him.

As for the thread: Gohan ate a senzu right before round 2 with Dabra and appeared to transform into the same Super Saiyan form he already fought him in. So I don't believe it comes down to Kibito failing to restore him to his maximum power.

Then we fast forward to Kaioshin saying this to Kibito:
Kaioshin says Kibito wasn't around to see how powerful Gohan was.

Kibito already saw Gohan at the Budokai, so what Kaioshin is speaking on would most likely be beyond whatever Kibito saw.
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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by GatoF » Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:50 pm

SSJ2 Teen Gohan > Super Perfect Cell > SSJ2 Gohan > Dabura = Perfect Cell > SSJ1 Gohan

He was SSJ1 during his fight against Dabura and was probably rusty to fight as SSJ2, he only went SSJ2 during the budokai because he was angry because of Videl and to intimidate Kibito.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by Galan007 » Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:46 pm

The DBS stuff aside, I've always believed that Gohan must have been using SS2 against Dabura for a few main reasons:

-It was heavily implied that Dabura ~ Perfect Cell.
-It was reiterated a few different times that Gohan(Cell Games) > Gohan(Boo-era).

And during the Cell Games, Perfect Cell > SS1 Gohan... So if a more powerful SS1 Gohan was incapable of matching Perfect Cell, then how could a [significantly] weaker version of Gohan match a Cell-level opponent, if he weren't using SS2?

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:57 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:39 pm Kaioshin says Kibito wasn't around to see how powerful Gohan was.

Kibito already saw Gohan at the Budokai, so what Kaioshin is speaking on would most likely be beyond whatever Kibito saw.
To be fair, anything that Kaioshin saw the Saiyans doing in Babidi’s ship impressed him. SS2 Gohan probably doesn’t look as impressive in his eyes because he never got to show his power, his energy was immediately drained.

Galan007 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:46 pm So if a more powerful SS1 Gohan was incapable of matching Perfect Cell, then how could a [significantly] weaker version of Gohan match a Cell-level opponent, if he weren't using SS2?
Gohan wasn’t matching Dabra? Same way Goku wasn’t matching Cell, despite sometimes their fight looking like tight close.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by GatoF » Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:46 pm

Perfect Cell was SSJ1 tier, although he was stronger than his SSJ1 opponents they could put up a fight with him.
When he faced a SSJ2 tier character in Gohan he was completely humiliated until he got the near death zenkai boost.

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Re: Related to was Gohan ssj2 vs Dabura?

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:50 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:32 pmDabura was actually confident in defeating SS2 Trunks (after being attacked by him) and Shin was needed to paralyze him for Trunks to kill him. He is SS2 tier.

Care to tell me where did the guidebooks contradict each other?
Super Saiyan 2 isn't a tier, it's a multiplier. It's entirely possible that Trunks just happened to be a significantly weaker Super Saiyan 2 than Gohan was at the time.

Regarding the databooks, Daizenshuu 2 states that high school-aged Gohan only ever used SS2 in Volume 37, whereas he fought Dabra in Volume 38. Daizenshuu 7 conflicts with this by saying he did fight as a SS2. While it's possible one of the databooks just fucked up, I have been told that the contradiction could come from how Daizenshuu 2 is a manga-only, whereas Daizenshuu 7 is more all-inclusive and takes information that was changed or added from the anime version (and the anime version does add dialogue to imply Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 at the time).
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