Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by dragonballhero » Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:06 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:57 pm
dragonballhero wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:56 am You know, as I've watched the last 10-15 eps of One Piece, one thought that kept running through my mind was just how in the world is it DB can't get that kind of treatment? Now that I think about it (and maybe this is just my imagination), but I remember seeing One Piece as having far more consistent art per week than DB's ever had in anime form.

As some of you have mentioned on here, seeing Super Hero's near-abysmal promotion is also something to behold. I mean, considering how the West loves Gohan, I'd think TOEI would have capitalized on all of it way more.
One Piece is mostly so good right now because the core staff have connections and are willing to bend over backwards to recruit freelancers to help on the series. Series Director Nagamine Tatsuya and friends have done an amazing job of compiling so many skilled animators. After he's done with One Piece (whether that's after the Wano story arc ends in a year or two or after the series ends) I hope that Nagamine will do the same for PreCure next.
See, now why is it that Dragon Ball can't get that level of care, when it's proven itself to be quite possibly TOEI's most well-known series? Don't get me wrong, I love One Piece, but... I'd be lying if I said that it didn't bug me to no end that TOEI treats One Piece (which, unfortunately, didn't take off in the West as well as DB) is like their ONLY golden child.

Side note, I DO hope Pretty Cure gets that treatment too. I mean, I think Nagamine was the chief director of the franchise's 5th season (Yes! PreCure 5 GoGo!, I think).

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by YMK_8000 » Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:40 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:48 am , and even social media aren't representative samples of real-world opinions.
Eh idk about that a lot people online said the movie would flop and suck & to boycot it & people were right and did boycott it the box office speaks for itself.

Trends and online public opinion matter to companies and brands more in this era than any before

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:53 pm

dragonballhero wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:06 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:57 pm
dragonballhero wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:56 am You know, as I've watched the last 10-15 eps of One Piece, one thought that kept running through my mind was just how in the world is it DB can't get that kind of treatment? Now that I think about it (and maybe this is just my imagination), but I remember seeing One Piece as having far more consistent art per week than DB's ever had in anime form.

As some of you have mentioned on here, seeing Super Hero's near-abysmal promotion is also something to behold. I mean, considering how the West loves Gohan, I'd think TOEI would have capitalized on all of it way more.
One Piece is mostly so good right now because the core staff have connections and are willing to bend over backwards to recruit freelancers to help on the series. Series Director Nagamine Tatsuya and friends have done an amazing job of compiling so many skilled animators. After he's done with One Piece (whether that's after the Wano story arc ends in a year or two or after the series ends) I hope that Nagamine will do the same for PreCure next.
See, now why is it that Dragon Ball can't get that level of care, when it's proven itself to be quite possibly TOEI's most well-known series? Don't get me wrong, I love One Piece, but... I'd be lying if I said that it didn't bug me to no end that TOEI treats One Piece (which, unfortunately, didn't take off in the West as well as DB) is like their ONLY golden child.

Side note, I DO hope Pretty Cure gets that treatment too. I mean, I think Nagamine was the chief director of the franchise's 5th season (Yes! PreCure 5 GoGo!, I think).
It gets it because people want to work on One Piece and want to work with the core staff. Most of what makes any anime good is connections and One Piece's current series directors and production desk and production assistants have good connections. They can't just tell freelancers what to work on.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:31 pm

YMK_8000 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:37 pm
Skar wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:48 am I think the explanation that Shuiesha wanted Toei to wait for more content to adapt made the most sense whether it's the manga or outlines from Toriyama. From what we've seen, there doesn't seem to be much demand for Dragon Ball not involving Toriyama. Since BoG, we've only gotten Heroes which is a promotional anime only released in Japan. A few years break between seasons isn't that uncommon nowadays.
BS there are fan works more popular that Super these days. GT which had no involvement from him Is beloved even way more than Super ever was.
Super is still more well liked than GT. You have people asking for Super to return, and the brand name for Super sells well. GT has a bad stigma from fans for being "non cannon". GT was even hated back in the old days in the late 90s and early 2000s. Doing Dragon Ball without Toriyama won't get much buzz. Most people will look at it as another GT, and skip it. The whole franchise lives and dies off from Toriyama.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:02 pm

The Dragon Ball GT DVDs sold extremely well in Japan. Dragon Ball GT is also still alive-and-well in modern merchandise and such, it just isn't what is being considered the 'main' Dragon Ball brand because Toriyama was so hands-off and they thusly cannot market it as being 'from the original author'.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by ABED » Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:32 pm

YMK_8000 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:40 pm
ABED wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:48 am , and even social media aren't representative samples of real-world opinions.
Eh idk about that a lot people online said the movie would flop and suck & to boycot it & people were right and did boycott it the box office speaks for itself.

Trends and online public opinion matter to companies and brands more in this era than any before
How does it speak for itself? Super Hero made around 90 million?

Those online public opinions matter to them but as we've found out, they aren't necessarily representative.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by YMK_8000 » Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:51 am

Hellspawn28 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:31 pm
YMK_8000 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:37 pm
Skar wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:48 am I think the explanation that Shuiesha wanted Toei to wait for more content to adapt made the most sense whether it's the manga or outlines from Toriyama. From what we've seen, there doesn't seem to be much demand for Dragon Ball not involving Toriyama. Since BoG, we've only gotten Heroes which is a promotional anime only released in Japan. A few years break between seasons isn't that uncommon nowadays.
BS there are fan works more popular that Super these days. GT which had no involvement from him Is beloved even way more than Super ever was.
Super is still more well liked than GT. You have people asking for Super to return, and the brand name for Super sells well. GT has a bad stigma from fans for being "non cannon". GT was even hated back in the old days in the late 90s and early 2000s. Doing Dragon Ball without Toriyama won't get much buzz. Most people will look at it as another GT, and skip it. The whole franchise lives and dies off from Toriyama.
I disagree GT is seen how the Star Wars prequels are nowadays. Flawed but loved 9000 time more than the new shit (DBS,sequels)

Also you bring up something I’ve often wondered? Why does the fan base refuses to accept someone else other than Toriyama doing Dragonball? When we all know his writing and handling of it as of late is equivalent to loading some kids up on caffeine/sugar & releasing them into the Dragonball toys section at the Bandai store, and Toriyama writes down everything the kids did uses it in the story. Just pure doo doo butter from his pen.

If we found out that the Broly movie was ghostwritten by someone else (who was paid but uncredited) & they just slapped Toriyamas name on it would we think any differently of that movie? Doubt it.

Somewhat similar to how Star Wars lets Dave Filoni and John Favreau have free rein with that franchise. I think a well written & planned out Dragonball that keeps consistent logic created by a person or group of people with no involvement from Toriyama who know the franchise in & out, the story, characters & is a excellent writer would make something better than what that anything that has the supposed holy seal of official quality and canon with that old geezers name on it.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by super michael » Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:32 am

dragonballhero wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:06 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:57 pm
dragonballhero wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:56 am You know, as I've watched the last 10-15 eps of One Piece, one thought that kept running through my mind was just how in the world is it DB can't get that kind of treatment? Now that I think about it (and maybe this is just my imagination), but I remember seeing One Piece as having far more consistent art per week than DB's ever had in anime form.

As some of you have mentioned on here, seeing Super Hero's near-abysmal promotion is also something to behold. I mean, considering how the West loves Gohan, I'd think TOEI would have capitalized on all of it way more.
One Piece is mostly so good right now because the core staff have connections and are willing to bend over backwards to recruit freelancers to help on the series. Series Director Nagamine Tatsuya and friends have done an amazing job of compiling so many skilled animators. After he's done with One Piece (whether that's after the Wano story arc ends in a year or two or after the series ends) I hope that Nagamine will do the same for PreCure next.
See, now why is it that Dragon Ball can't get that level of care, when it's proven itself to be quite possibly TOEI's most well-known series? Don't get me wrong, I love One Piece, but... I'd be lying if I said that it didn't bug me to no end that TOEI treats One Piece (which, unfortunately, didn't take off in the West as well as DB) is like their ONLY golden child.

Side note, I DO hope Pretty Cure gets that treatment too. I mean, I think Nagamine was the chief director of the franchise's 5th season (Yes! PreCure 5 GoGo!, I think).

Toei are a weird company, when a IP gets too big they do a terrible job.

Toei did a awful job with DBS, Digimon Adventure Reboot and Pokémon Sun & Moon. It is like it is written or drawn by amateurs.

I have a list how DBS Goku compares to DB/DBZ Goku, that shows how DBS Goku is awful compared to DB/DBZ.

Toei seems to believe that forbidding character is what fans wants, they couldn't be more wrong. If they are not allowed to fight, why write them that they want to fight? Why hype fans only to be let down constantly.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:35 am

YMK_8000 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:51 amI think a well written & planned out Dragonball that keeps consistent logic created by a person or group of people with no involvement from Toriyama who know the franchise in & out, the story, characters & is a excellent writer would make something better than what that anything that has the supposed holy seal of official quality and canon with that old geezers name on it.
This dude made the very series you're discussing about on this fan site that documents his work. Not everyone's against Dragon Ball stories being written by someone other than Toriyama. In fact, we've gotten 17 movies, 2 TV specials, a whole anime and a web series that are all not written by him, and some people love that stuff. But to act like no one likes what he's doing with modern DB stories is just a lie. Lots of people love the last few films and the stories from the Super anime/manga. I enjoyed Super, loved the Broly film and I thought Super Hero was great. Stop trying to convince everyone with almost all of your posts that Toriyama needs to leave the franchise. It's getting old.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by Xeogran » Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:54 am

super michael wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:32 am and Pokémon Sun & Moon
Uhhh :eh:
I don't think Toei has ever been involved in any Pokemon animation out there

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by Vegard Aune » Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:30 am

Xeogran wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:54 am
super michael wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:32 am and Pokémon Sun & Moon
Uhhh :eh:
I don't think Toei has ever been involved in any Pokemon animation out there
Indeed. Pokémon is OLM.

Also Sun & Moon is amazing, actually. My favorite Pokémon series and it's not even close. It was everything I never knew I always wanted.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by super michael » Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:07 am

So Toei was never involved in Pokémon at all, thanks for letting me know. Don't know why I thought Toei was involved.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:04 am

Yeah, Pokemon is OLM. Furthermore, Sun & Moon is the best Pokemon anime. Amazing animation and fresh, fun stories.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by super michael » Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:28 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:04 am Yeah, Pokemon is OLM. Furthermore, Sun & Moon is the best Pokemon anime. Amazing animation and fresh, fun stories.

Animation I can't really comment, I only know in my opinion that Ash art style looks awful. As for story I have no idea.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:03 pm

super michael wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:28 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:04 am Yeah, Pokemon is OLM. Furthermore, Sun & Moon is the best Pokemon anime. Amazing animation and fresh, fun stories.

Animation I can't really comment, I only know in my opinion that Ash art style looks awful. As for story I have no idea.
Satoshi looks awesome and the story is a ton of fun.

The writing from long-time writers like Matsui Aya and Tomioka Atsuhiro are easily some of their best. Stories about family and dealing with death permeate the entire series and they're elevated greatly by the directing and animation. One of my favorite episodes with this brilliant combining of elements is Sun & Moon Episode #59. The animation really sells the bond between Suiren and Mao. Pocket Monsters Sun & Moon is a series any television creator should learn from.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:05 pm

As far as Ash/Satoshi's redesign is concerned Sun and Moon just took the novel approach of having the 10-year old *gasp* look and act like a 10-year old

I've seen the first 8 or so episodes of S&M (dubbed so that probably wasn't the best way to go about it) the series was too saccharine for my taste to continue but the animation is actually really good especially the character's facial animation.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:16 pm

super michael wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:07 am So Toei was never involved in Pokémon at all, thanks for letting me know. Don't know why I thought Toei was involved.
Maybe you got it confused with Digimon
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:23 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:05 pm As far as Ash/Satoshi's redesign is concerned Sun and Moon just took the novel approach of having the 10-year old *gasp* look and act like a 10-year old

I've seen the first 8 or so episodes of S&M (dubbed so that probably wasn't the best way to go about it) the series was too saccharine for my taste to continue but the animation is actually really good especially the character's facial animation.
It's a very sentimental series, more so than any other. It feels like a healing-type anime so I wouldn't watch it dubbed because half of that effect is wonderful performances of the Japanese voice cast. This is the series that really introduced me to Ueda Reina (Mao) and in addition to her work as Shinjou Akane in SSSS.Gridman it is a ton of fun. There are still big dramatic episodes but those are later down the line. The series' most major focus is on funny gag animation and character animation and it contains some of the best work of the Pokemon God himself, Iwane Masaaki. Iwane normally solos an episode him himself in just a month but what has always made him such an unmatched force as an animator is the quality and variety of his work in that short amount of time. Despite the short schedule he was working with Iwane was still able to produce minutes of dense movement per episode, funny faces and also work on episodes for other key animators. Sun & Moon is truly an unheard of masterpiece and something Toei Animation could learn from.

I've compiled a full list of Iwane's 100+ solo key animation episodes here.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:37 pm

Getting a little (a lot!) off track here, folks.

One thing I do want to on-topic chime in on is to really warn people about these almost conspiracy-theory-esque lines of analysis.

Just because Shueisha and Toei aren't doing what YOU think they should do doesn't somehow mean there's this secret discontent and multi-departmental argument going on. They might be doing exactly what they want to be doing with the franchise right now, all completely agree on the current state of things, and are seeing the exact responses + sales figures that they want out of that line of effort.

And that's almost certainly the case here.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:57 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:32 pm
YMK_8000 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:40 pm
ABED wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:48 am , and even social media aren't representative samples of real-world opinions.
Eh idk about that a lot people online said the movie would flop and suck & to boycot it & people were right and did boycott it the box office speaks for itself.

Trends and online public opinion matter to companies and brands more in this era than any before
How does it speak for itself? Super Hero made around 90 million?

Those online public opinions matter to them but as we've found out, they aren't necessarily representative.
I want to reiterate Abed that its weird fans are trying to act like Super Super Hero was some kind of bomb when it made 93 million worldwide. Second highest grossing Dragon Ball film and apparently 30th highest grossing Japanese anime in the world. But somehow fans are trying to convince themselves it bombed? It made more than double its projected US gross.

Stop confusing your dislike of something for something being a commercial failure guys.

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