Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by Aim » Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:26 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:41 pm Why are you arguing that Dragon Ball should be sold to an American studio right after acknowledging that there are non-Toriyama led projects and fan projects that are popular? If anything you should be arguing that Dragon Ball should be public domain so that anyone can create and sell Dragon Ball projects.
I think I'm one of the few people who knows what you're talking about in regards to this, even under a different societal structure (evolving to communism), I imagine you wouldn't be able to claim work as though you originally created it, though, you could still make fan products. I still think Toriyama's Dragon Ball will be sought after because he really gives it a different touch. Not even Toyo comes close, if anything, it's more fan-fic esque reading anything Toyo writes.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by Skar » Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:27 am

YMK_8000 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:37 pmBS there are fan works more popular that Super these days. GT which had no involvement from him Is beloved even way more than Super ever was.

You definitely can do Dragonball without Toriyama in fact the series MUCH would be better for it. No more of the “ oh well when an eagle lands at the top of korin tower at 12 in the afternoon everyone power level becomes infinite ” type explanations and crap. Just have writers who actually know the characters, throw in some meta jokes, a cool looking villain with powers, good animation and you will profit.

Dragonball isn’t rocket science yet the ones in charge treat it as such. I hope they either take the franchise away or sell it to Disney or an American studio that will deliver on hype.
You probably shouldn't call what anyone else says as BS based on your previous comments and "interesting" claims with no sources.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by YMK_8000 » Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:22 pm

Aim wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:26 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:41 pm Why are you arguing that Dragon Ball should be sold to an American studio right after acknowledging that there are non-Toriyama led projects and fan projects that are popular? If anything you should be arguing that Dragon Ball should be public domain so that anyone can create and sell Dragon Ball projects.
I think I'm one of the few people who knows what you're talking about in regards to this, even under a different societal structure (evolving to communism), I imagine you wouldn't be able to claim work as though you originally created it, though, you could still make fan products. I still think Toriyama's Dragon Ball will be sought after because he really gives it a different touch. Not even Toyo comes close, if anything, it's more fan-fic esque reading anything Toyo writes.

So Gohan Blanco and Orange piccolo, & Cell max doesnt reek of fanfic ? Hell I hate ultra ego Vegeta but even that shit was explained better and at least had a couple panel of training montage showing Vegeta working with Beerus to get it. And toyo got raked over the coals for that yet the fandom turns a blind eye to Toriyamas dogshit writing and art for “transformations” these days.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:25 pm

YMK_8000 wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:22 pm And toyo got raked over the coals for that yet the fandom turns a blind eye to Toriyamas dogshit writing and art for “transformations” these days.
You seem to just continue creating scenarios in your mind to argue against in every post I come across.

Plenty of people have extensively criticized the transformations (both in design and story-telling) from Super Hero.

I absolutely love Super Hero and I simultaneously don't like Beast at all. This stuff is incredibly nuanced and lots of people feel lots of different ways.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:57 pm

Aim wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:26 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:41 pm Why are you arguing that Dragon Ball should be sold to an American studio right after acknowledging that there are non-Toriyama led projects and fan projects that are popular? If anything you should be arguing that Dragon Ball should be public domain so that anyone can create and sell Dragon Ball projects.
I think I'm one of the few people who knows what you're talking about in regards to this, even under a different societal structure (evolving to communism), I imagine you wouldn't be able to claim work as though you originally created it, though, you could still make fan products. I still think Toriyama's Dragon Ball will be sought after because he really gives it a different touch. Not even Toyo comes close, if anything, it's more fan-fic esque reading anything Toyo writes.
Oh. Absolutely. My goal is:

1. Decouple selling art from one's ability to live by guaranteeing housing and healthcare and such.
2. Remove the ability to monopolize art and ideas, especially those that are popular and consolidate wealth in the hands of the few like Dragon Ball does.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:55 pm

I've noticed this as well. Maybe 'Super' as a brand is struggling?

Before anyone says, I'm well aware how much money DB makes. I just mean that maybe if hypothetically it stayed DBZ this would not be happening. Super Hero's marketing was abysmal, even compared to DBS Broly, but we're all aware of that by now. There has to be something going on behind the scenes.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by capsulecorp » Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:00 am

I for one am grateful that Toei has had some restraint and avoided churning out (more) work that Toriyama isn't enthusiastic about. I'm glad the super anime stopped and I hope it doesn't come back.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by YMK_8000 » Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:15 am

Dbzfan94 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:55 pm I've noticed this as well. Maybe 'Super' as a brand is struggling?

Before anyone says, I'm well aware how much money DB makes. I just mean that maybe if hypothetically it stayed DBZ this would not be happening. Super Hero's marketing was abysmal, even compared to DBS Broly, but we're all aware of that by now. There has to be something going on behind the scenes.
but before the latest disaster Super left on an extremely high note with the Broly movie ( not counting the manga in any regard) it only started struggling after the anime went completely off the air. It’s odd that Broly did that well and there was no follow up at all with a series in that same style.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by capsulecorp » Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:27 am

YMK_8000 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:15 am
Dbzfan94 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:55 pm I've noticed this as well. Maybe 'Super' as a brand is struggling?

Before anyone says, I'm well aware how much money DB makes. I just mean that maybe if hypothetically it stayed DBZ this would not be happening. Super Hero's marketing was abysmal, even compared to DBS Broly, but we're all aware of that by now. There has to be something going on behind the scenes.
but before the latest disaster Super left on an extremely high note with the Broly movie ( not counting the manga in any regard) it only started struggling after the anime went completely off the air. It’s odd that Broly did that well and there was no follow up at all with a series in that same style.
I'm actually glad they're not so devoted to following sales. I don't want creative outlets driven purely by trend forecasting, market research and the profit motive. It may be "odd" they that don't, but I'm glad.

And, frankly, the things you're saying are false. Super Hero wasn't a "disaster", and it didn't "struggle", at least not according to many of the most passionate fans on this very website.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by super michael » Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:54 am

One of Toei problem is they like making certains really bad in DBS, an example is Goku and Chi Chi.
Then they like teasing fans, acting like certain character will do things, only for them to do nothing. Some are forbidden or asleep an example.

Goku is the main character, yet he is a character that people hates, thanks to Toei decision. Even in the latest movie, Toei makes Goku look bad.

Toei censoring DBS was bad.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:59 am

super michael wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:54 am One of Toei problem is they like making certains really bad in DBS, an example is Goku and Chi Chi.
Then they like teasing fans, acting like certain character will do things, only for them to do nothing. Some are forbidden or asleep an example.

Goku is the main character, yet he is a character that people hates, thanks to Toei decision. Even in the latest movie, Toei makes Goku look bad.

Toei censoring DBS was bad.
I know you don't like DBS and find the writing to be awful, but you and others need to stop making unfounded statements like "Goku is a character that people hate thanks to Toei." If you think Toei makes him look bad, that's fine. It's opinion and you are more than welcome to it, but anyone claim people hate Super or Goku, you are making a statement you deem to be factual. It's just not true.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by super michael » Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:29 am

ABED wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:59 am
super michael wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:54 am One of Toei problem is they like making certains really bad in DBS, an example is Goku and Chi Chi.
Then they like teasing fans, acting like certain character will do things, only for them to do nothing. Some are forbidden or asleep an example.

Goku is the main character, yet he is a character that people hates, thanks to Toei decision. Even in the latest movie, Toei makes Goku look bad.

Toei censoring DBS was bad.
I know you don't like DBS and find the writing to be awful, but you and others need to stop making unfounded statements like "Goku is a character that people hate thanks to Toei." If you think Toei makes him look bad, that's fine. It's opinion and you are more than welcome to it, but anyone claim people hate Super or Goku, you are making a statement you deem to be factual. It's just not true.
Toei seems to believe that making Goku more dumb and brainless = more people likes him, which isn't even true.
In DBS Super Hero what was Toei trying to achieve by having Goku not know the benefit of meditation and consider it something only lazy people does?

Goku never had a problem with meditation in DB/DBZ at all, even called Vegeta a genius for standing still for a couple days straight. DBS Super Hero is a huge contradiction.

My problem with DBS is Toei doesn't understand Dragon Ball.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:38 am

super michael wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:29 am
ABED wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:59 am
super michael wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:54 am One of Toei problem is they like making certains really bad in DBS, an example is Goku and Chi Chi.
Then they like teasing fans, acting like certain character will do things, only for them to do nothing. Some are forbidden or asleep an example.

Goku is the main character, yet he is a character that people hates, thanks to Toei decision. Even in the latest movie, Toei makes Goku look bad.

Toei censoring DBS was bad.
I know you don't like DBS and find the writing to be awful, but you and others need to stop making unfounded statements like "Goku is a character that people hate thanks to Toei." If you think Toei makes him look bad, that's fine. It's opinion and you are more than welcome to it, but anyone claim people hate Super or Goku, you are making a statement you deem to be factual. It's just not true.
Toei seems to believe that making Goku more dumb and brainless = more people likes him, which isn't even true.
In DBS Super Hero what was Toei trying to achieve by having Goku not know the benefit of meditation and consider it something only lazy people does?

Goku never had a problem with meditation in DB/DBZ at all, even called Vegeta a genius for standing still for a couple days straight. DBS Super Hero is a huge contradiction.

My problem with DBS is Toei doesn't understand Dragon Ball.
I'm well aware of your feelings towards Super, but it's not true that people hate Goku. All I'm asking is everyone separate statements of fact from opinion.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by super michael » Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:41 am

ABED wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:38 am
super michael wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:29 am
ABED wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:59 am I know you don't like DBS and find the writing to be awful, but you and others need to stop making unfounded statements like "Goku is a character that people hate thanks to Toei." If you think Toei makes him look bad, that's fine. It's opinion and you are more than welcome to it, but anyone claim people hate Super or Goku, you are making a statement you deem to be factual. It's just not true.
Toei seems to believe that making Goku more dumb and brainless = more people likes him, which isn't even true.
In DBS Super Hero what was Toei trying to achieve by having Goku not know the benefit of meditation and consider it something only lazy people does?

Goku never had a problem with meditation in DB/DBZ at all, even called Vegeta a genius for standing still for a couple days straight. DBS Super Hero is a huge contradiction.

My problem with DBS is Toei doesn't understand Dragon Ball.
I'm well aware of your feelings towards Super, but it's not true that people hate Goku. All I'm asking is everyone separate statements of fact from opinion.
Many people in many website complains about DBS Goku, it is a fact that more people hates DBS Goku compared to DB/DBZ Goku.
You can't ignore many people complain and hates DBS Goku.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:48 am

This site, the internet in general, and even social media aren't representative samples of real-world opinions.

I can't add anything more to this conversation, so with that said, I bid thee farewell.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by ATA » Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:00 pm

super michael wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:41 am
ABED wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:38 am
super michael wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:29 am

Toei seems to believe that making Goku more dumb and brainless = more people likes him, which isn't even true.
In DBS Super Hero what was Toei trying to achieve by having Goku not know the benefit of meditation and consider it something only lazy people does?

Goku never had a problem with meditation in DB/DBZ at all, even called Vegeta a genius for standing still for a couple days straight. DBS Super Hero is a huge contradiction.

My problem with DBS is Toei doesn't understand Dragon Ball.
I'm well aware of your feelings towards Super, but it's not true that people hate Goku. All I'm asking is everyone separate statements of fact from opinion.
Many people in many website complains about DBS Goku, it is a fact that more people hates DBS Goku compared to DB/DBZ Goku.
You can't ignore many people complain and hates DBS Goku.

People LOVE Goku. He may not have been written the best lately but Goku is still loved by the fans. The reason people don't like DBS Goku because they love Goku.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by super michael » Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:28 am

ATA wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:00 pm
super michael wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:41 am
ABED wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:38 am I'm well aware of your feelings towards Super, but it's not true that people hate Goku. All I'm asking is everyone separate statements of fact from opinion.
Many people in many website complains about DBS Goku, it is a fact that more people hates DBS Goku compared to DB/DBZ Goku.
You can't ignore many people complain and hates DBS Goku.

People LOVE Goku. He may not have been written the best lately but Goku is still loved by the fans. The reason people don't like DBS Goku because they love Goku.
Sorry but many people don't love DBS Goku, they hate DBS Goku who has no brains at all and acts like a clown.
DBS Goku is a shell of his former self.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by dragonballhero » Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:56 am

You know, as I've watched the last 10-15 eps of One Piece, one thought that kept running through my mind was just how in the world is it DB can't get that kind of treatment? Now that I think about it (and maybe this is just my imagination), but I remember seeing One Piece as having far more consistent art per week than DB's ever had in anime form.

As some of you have mentioned on here, seeing Super Hero's near-abysmal promotion is also something to behold. I mean, considering how the West loves Gohan, I'd think TOEI would have capitalized on all of it way more.

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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:57 pm

dragonballhero wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:56 am You know, as I've watched the last 10-15 eps of One Piece, one thought that kept running through my mind was just how in the world is it DB can't get that kind of treatment? Now that I think about it (and maybe this is just my imagination), but I remember seeing One Piece as having far more consistent art per week than DB's ever had in anime form.

As some of you have mentioned on here, seeing Super Hero's near-abysmal promotion is also something to behold. I mean, considering how the West loves Gohan, I'd think TOEI would have capitalized on all of it way more.
One Piece is mostly so good right now because the core staff have connections and are willing to bend over backwards to recruit freelancers to help on the series. Series Director Nagamine Tatsuya and friends have done an amazing job of compiling so many skilled animators. After he's done with One Piece (whether that's after the Wano story arc ends in a year or two or after the series ends) I hope that Nagamine will do the same for PreCure next.
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Re: Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

Post by ATA » Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:14 pm

super michael wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:28 am
ATA wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:00 pm
super michael wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:41 am

Many people in many website complains about DBS Goku, it is a fact that more people hates DBS Goku compared to DB/DBZ Goku.
You can't ignore many people complain and hates DBS Goku.

People LOVE Goku. He may not have been written the best lately but Goku is still loved by the fans. The reason people don't like DBS Goku because they love Goku.
Sorry but many people don't love DBS Goku, they hate DBS Goku who has no brains at all and acts like a clown.
DBS Goku is a shell of his former self.

With all due respect. I literally said "The reason people don't like DBS Goku because they love Goku". To which you responded with "they hate DBS Goku". I'm not sure where this conversation is heading at this point.
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