Could there be an inner struggle happening within Toei and/or the Dragon Ball department?

[Koitsukai]

BS there are fan works more popular that Super these days.

Really? there's fan work out there that is gathering thousands of people on the streets when they release their last episode, like DBS did?
I'd love to catch that fanwork, can you tell me the names -there's more than one, according to your use of plural- of the fanwork that is more popular than a worldwide series?

GT which had no involvement from him Is beloved even way more than Super ever was.

Citation needed.
I'd love to read the study that proves your statement. I'm starting to believe literally none of your claims can be supported, and you are just hiding your own opinions under "everybody".

[Vegard Aune]

Eh idk about that a lot people online said the movie would flop and suck & to boycot it & people were right and did boycott it the box office speaks for itself.

Trends and online public opinion matter to companies and brands more in this era than any before

How does it speak for itself? Super Hero made around 90 million?

Those online public opinions matter to them but as we've found out, they aren't necessarily representative.

I want to reiterate Abed that its weird fans are trying to act like Super Super Hero was some kind of bomb when it made 93 million worldwide. Second highest grossing Dragon Ball film and apparently 30th highest grossing Japanese anime in the world. But somehow fans are trying to convince themselves it bombed? It made more than double its projected US gross.

Stop confusing your dislike of something for something being a commercial failure guys.

It seems like people are taking "It performed worse than Broly" and running with it to the extreme of "It made no money at all" which is like... Folks... You do realize there are other options between "Made more money than the immediately preceding entry" and "Was a complete financial failure", right?

[super michael]

Getting a little (a lot!) off track here, folks.

One thing I do want to on-topic chime in on is to really warn people about these almost conspiracy-theory-esque lines of analysis.

Just because Shueisha and Toei aren't doing what YOU think they should do doesn't somehow mean there's this secret discontent and multi-departmental argument going on. They might be doing exactly what they want to be doing with the franchise right now, all completely agree on the current state of things, and are seeing the exact responses + sales figures that they want out of that line of effort.

And that's almost certainly the case here.

When Toei does things that contradicts Toriyama work, then there is something wrong.

As mentioned before Goku was a genius at training, he learned from the best. However we are expected to believe that in DBS Super Hero Goku doesn't know why meditation is good, especially when he done it in DB/DBZ/DBS.
Goku had common sense in late DB/DBZ and knew how to make plans, which in DBS Goku doesn't know how to do that. Anytime DBS Goku speak it is something dumb.

Toei seems to make Goku look like a character who forgets everything he learned and makes him look dumb every chance they get.


DBS Super Hero is a great movie, I enjoyed it.

As for Digimon Adventure Reboot without going too much into details, the kids Digimon refuse to turn Ultimate/Mega and rather lose instead. Worst episode was Petaldramon.
Joe getting captured by Olegmon pirate ship, since Joe airplane stayed by the ocean, instead of flying out of the ocean area.

Basically how they lost, got captured or died was horrible in Digimon Adventure Reboot.

[Majin Buu]

It seems like people are taking "It performed worse than Broly" and running with it to the extreme of "It made no money at all" which is like... Folks... You do realize there are other options between "Made more money than the immediately preceding entry" and "Was a complete financial failure", right?

I think that's just certain fans trying to push a narrative.

[DatHenson]

Honestly what gets me is that Super started with 2 arcs based on the immediate prior movies

Like that could've just been a flashback, because both movies already were too padded out enough, but no...2 full arcs

I honestly can't recall many shows doing that, ut just seems like a waste of time and resources since Dball was already sparking in popularity

When Toei does things that contradicts Toriyama work, then there is something wrong.

As mentioned before Goku was a genius at training, he learned from the best. However we are expected to believe that in DBS Super Hero Goku doesn't know why meditation is good, especially when he done it in DB/DBZ/DBS.
Goku had common sense in late DB/DBZ and knew how to make plans, which in DBS Goku doesn't know how to do that. Anytime DBS Goku speak it is something dumb.

Toei seems to make Goku look like a character who forgets everything he learned and makes him look dumb every chance they get.

See, I disagree with the first statement. About it contradicting Toriyama

I legit think Goku's regression is due to DBall nostalgia. It was already poking in Buu Saga, but Yo Son Goku and Super heavily push into the naivette that feels reverse for char dev. It's the same with the Red Ribbon nostalgia getting more and more involved (and that's ignoring that Cell Saga was a hacky attempt on RR as well)

Which is a shame cuz Kid Goku actually could take threats seriously, even more savage than Adult Goku in a lot of ways

I feel Toyotaro filters the stupidity partially from Toriyama's drafts, which might explain why Manga Super Goku is slightly better. But it doesn't matter too much given the Sentu Bean scene...

But the nostalgia factor is a scary thing with how surface level it is. Cell Saga failed with how stupid yet boring Gero was + piling on villains to where RR doesn't even matter, Buu saga was incredibly messy for plot, with the Gohan plan and "passing the torch to next gen" theme collapsing, GT failed for its attempt on Dball nostalgia for humor and adventure (though this is on Toei), Android 21's campaign in Fighter Z is mediocre, and Super Hero's RR army use is randomly extended and honestly detrimental to the film. Super recycling Freeza hype doesn't help

I honestly hope the new chapters with Goten is actually new, and I hope Toei gives the anime better priority given Super Hero's success

[MasenkoHA]

Honestly what gets me is that Super started with 2 arcs based on the immediate prior movies

Like that could've just been a flashback, because both movies already were too padded out enough, but no...2 full arcs

Wasting 29 episodes retelling two movies most Dragon Ball fans have already seen was definitely a low point for Super. Hopefully in the incredibly slim chance Super comes back for a season 2 they dont waste time retelling Broly and Super Hero

See, I disagree with the first statement. About it contradicting Toriyama

I legit think Goku's regression is due to DBall nostalgia. It was already poking in Buu Saga

Where though

(and that's ignoring that Cell Saga was a hacky attempt on RR as well)

But not really. The Cell saga wasnt some attempt to cash in on Red Ribbon nostalgia. The Red Ribbon connection was just an explanation for where Gero came from and why he had it out for Goku. Other than the two anime only appearances of Tao in Z there is zero attempt from Dragon Ball Z to go "member the Red Ribbon saga? Do you remember? Do you? HUH?" The Androids and Cell don't even mention the Red Ribbon Army and Gero seems to give no damns about Commander Red. There's Roshi's flashback too but even that really just seem to exist for the benefit of viewers who were too young to have seen or remember the Red Ribbon arc

Which is a shame cuz Kid Goku actually could take threats seriously

The exact opposite. He didn't even bother to do anything about the Red Ribbon Army until he needed their dragon balls.

.

But the nostalgia factor is a scary thing with how surface level it is. Cell Saga failed with how stupid yet boring Gero was + piling on villains to where RR doesn't even matter,

Red Ribbon was never suppose to matter. That was never the point. Same with Gero. Sure he's boring but he only exist to explain where the Androids and Cell came from. He's not required to be interesting.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Wasting 29 episodes retelling two movies most Dragon Ball fans have already seen was definitely a low point for Super. Hopefully in the incredibly slim chance Super comes back for a season 2 they dont waste time retelling Broly and Super Hero

Agreed, the arcs retelling Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F which are the first TWO arcs of DBS were a waste. You're not missing out on anything by just watching the films themselves. Dragging them out into full episodic arcs was not a great move because they were not made to be shown in that format. Honestly, i just watch the movies then move on to the original material.

[JulieYBM]

The real problem is that the anime arc adaptions didn't do anything new because the series itself is held back by a production crew working to create episodes at the eleventh hour and with mandates to stick close to Toriyama's notes, rather than actually being allowed to flex their creative muscles.

Actually remaking those films as story arcs isn't a bad idea.

[ABED]

The two fundamental reasons the revival isn't doing anything great or new has ZERO to do with the production schedule. It all boils down to the writing. The two reasons are:

- Over reliance on nostalgia
- the lightning in a bottle of Dragon Ball is gone. It went on for so long and covered so much ground. Nothing gold can stay. You might occasionally get flashes of brilliance like Battle of Gods and the introduction of new characters like Whis and Beerus, as of now, the spark of the series is gone.

No amount of changes made to the production schedule will change that as it's all a function of story. If the story doesn't work, great artwork and choreography won't matter.

If they aren't going to stick close to Toriyama's world, at some point, they might as well make a new franchise.

[Xeogran]

You're not missing out on anything by just watching the films themselves.

Technically you are, on Ginyu's fate. Yeah he's a side character from like 10 arcs ago, but still memorable enough.
Though I wish they brought him back in a better manner than this..

[MasenkoHA]

You're not missing out on anything by just watching the films themselves.

Technically you are, on Ginyu's fate. Yeah he's a side character from like 10 arcs ago, but still memorable enough.
Though I wish they brought him back in a better manner than this..

He spent the rest of his days as a Namekian frog was an acceptable fate.

[YMK_8000]

How does it speak for itself? Super Hero made around 90 million?

Those online public opinions matter to them but as we've found out, they aren't necessarily representative.

I want to reiterate Abed that its weird fans are trying to act like Super Super Hero was some kind of bomb when it made 93 million worldwide. Second highest grossing Dragon Ball film and apparently 30th highest grossing Japanese anime in the world. But somehow fans are trying to convince themselves it bombed? It made more than double its projected US gross.

Stop confusing your dislike of something for something being a commercial failure guys.

It seems like people are taking "It performed worse than Broly" and running with it to the extreme of "It made no money at all" which is like... Folks... You do realize there are other options between "Made more money than the immediately preceding entry" and "Was a complete financial failure", right?

Not with a franchise like Dragonball the standard is way different it’s success or bust there is no in between. My Hero, black clover, and the other B-tier anime 90 million is phenomenal. For DB it’s no good.

Also if it was a financial success why wasn’t it announced by Toei themselves? They had no problem doing it for Broly with the quickness.

[capsulecorp]

Not with a franchise like Dragonball the standard is way different it’s success or bust there is no in between. My Hero, black clover, and the other B-tier anime 90 million is phenomenal. For DB it’s no good.

Also if it was a financial success why wasn’t it announced by Toei themselves? They had no problem doing it for Broly with the quickness.

You're sort of just repeating yourself. You should either take the points that people are making more seriously, or stop posting.

[ABED]

Now it's surpassed 100 million. Can we please do away with the arbitrary assertion that it's a failure because Dragon Ball should make more?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Now it's surpassed 100 million. Can we please do away with the arbitrary assertion that it's a failure because Dragon Ball should make more?

Do we know this for definite? The-numbers has Super Hero at $69,456,133 (which I'm sceptical of), while at BoxOfficeMojo it's $86,562,140 (which I think is more likely). I'd have thought one of the two would be reporting $100 million if it was coming from a credible source.

Either way I agree the argument Super Hero was a flop doesn't hold up. Considering it's circumstances, the CGI, a movie not led by Goku, less fanservice, poor promotion and marketing, I think it's done fine, great even. It actually grossed more in the US than Broly, which is a real testament to how dedicated the fan base is over there.

[ABED]

Now it's surpassed 100 million. Can we please do away with the arbitrary assertion that it's a failure because Dragon Ball should make more?

Do we know this for definite? The-numbers has Super Hero at $69,456,133 (which I'm sceptical of), while at BoxOfficeMojo it's $86,562,140 (which I think is more likely). I'd have thought one of the two would be reporting $100 million if it was coming from a credible source.

Either way I agree the argument Super Hero was a flop doesn't hold up. Considering it's circumstances, the CGI, a movie not led by Goku, less fanservice, poor promotion and marketing, I think it's done fine, great even. It actually grossed more in the US than Broly, which is a real testament to how dedicated the fan base is over there.

I saw it on Twitter and looked on Wikipedia. I didn't click on the link with the source.

Given everything you mentioned, my guess is the powers that be weren't expecting it to make nearly as much as Broly. If it's not expected to make that, then why would anyone spend the money to try and get it to that? That's why the narrative that it failed is ridiculous. I'm guessing it made what it was projected to make.

[MasenkoHA]

Super Super Hero was a failure you guuuuuys

https://erzat.blog/one-piece-and-dragon ... of-fy2023/

No really

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/article/ed2473657348/

A failure
.https://www.siliconera.com/dragon-ball- ... nime-film/

[Koitsukai]

I read the same thing as Abed.

Apparently it's from reddit, from a user that used to be here a lot but then was banned.
They said you need a paid subscription to access this info due to being a business-related piece, but if it's true that after the release in China SH now sits at 100M, it's 30M short of Broly, and doubles the movie that sparked the revival, and a comfy 30M more than RoF.

Utter failure.

[Vegard Aune]

I read the same thing as Abed.

Apparently it's from reddit, from a user that used to be here a lot but then was banned.
They said you need a paid subscription to access this info due to being a business-related piece, but if it's true that after the release in China SH now sits at 100M, it's 30M short of Broly, and doubles the movie that sparked the revival, and a comfy 30M more than RoF.

Utter failure.

Second-most successful DB movie of all time.

Total flop.

[Skar]

What I understood from YMK's comments in other threads is that he considers a "flop" anything below $200 million. Only six anime films have grossed more than that and only three since 2008 so it's still pretty rare. I can understand if it's his personal opinion that it should make money but I think it's misinformation to make up your own definition of "flop" and keep arguing it in multiple threads.