Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:00 am

Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88

スーパーヒーロー誕生
Sūpā Hiirō Tanjō
A/The Super Hero(es) Is/Are Born


-------------------------------

Release Information:

JAPAN:
Date: December 21, 2022
Publication: V-Jump, February 2023 Issue
Cost: ¥620

(V-Jump is forward-dated two months from its actual release window. Issues are generally released on the 21st of each month, barring a Sunday or a holiday, in which case the issue gets moved up a day appropriately.)

INTERNATIONAL:
Date: December 20, 2021 (timed to the JP midnight-on-December-21st release)
Publication: Digital (Viz/Shonen Jump + Manga Plus)
Cost: Free

FIRST OFFICIAL TEASE:
The "Weekly Dragon Ball News" segment posted on the Dragon Ball Official Website on 12 December 2022 featured Victory Uchida (Shueisha employee/mascot, and editor for the Dragon Ball Super manga working alongside Toyotaro and Akira Toriyama) displaying a tease for the upcoming drafts on screen, which will (tentatively) be shared on December 14.

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STORYBOARDS/DRAFTS:
The first several pages of any given chapter's roughs/storyboards/drafts have been posted on the official Dragon Ball website for quite some time now (in all likelihood done in an attempt to combat piracy and control the narrative by releasing teases of specific information and context at their own discretion). The drafts for Dragon Ball Super manga chapter 88 were posted on December 14 (Japan time). As these specific articles are generally removed from the website upon the chapter's formal release, archived versions of these links (such as this) are generally shared by fandom.

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THREAD/DISCUSSION INFORMATION

This is the "official" discussion thread for Dragon Ball Super manga chapter 88. All content regarding this specific chapter would be great to include here in this thread, rather than the dedicated / larger / all-encompassing ongoing thread. Posts that are specific to the individual chapter in the gigantic thread with no relevance to the larger series will be reported and/or removed.

Q: When will this thread open?

A: This thread will be opened by a Kanzenshuu moderator when the first official promotion of the respective chapter occurs. This may be when its storyboards are shared, or in some kind of formal news article leading up to that point. Please do not create a separate thread of your own to discuss this chapter.

Q: What is the history behind a [blank]-specific discussion thread?

A: We established episode-specific discussion threads beginning with Dragon Ball Kai in 2011, followed by the Dragon Ball Super television series in 2015. These episode-specific threads allowed people to discuss just that: those specific episodes, without being interrupted by other discussions regarding general production, promotion, etc. We didn't create corresponding Dragon Ball Super manga chapter threads at its debut due to the nature of its production: it was initially billed as a "comicalization" of the television series, and the first arc barely stood on its own as a unique production, rather than supplemental/incidental/disposable. We had kept the larger thread out of inertia from those earlier chapters, and have wavered for literal years over whether or not to separate them out.

Q: We've had worthwhile individual chapters since chapter five. This is absurd. Why are you just starting individual discussion threads so many years into the manga, when the TV series had it from the start?

A: All of that is correct. Maybe we will go back and pull out threads for past chapters. Maybe we won't. We should have done this a long time ago. Better late than never. This is the plan for now on and is not currently up for discussion or reconsideration. Thank you.

Q: OK, but... so what's the point?

A: At Kanzenshuu we believe in history and preservation. It is worthwhile to future versions of ourselves and entirely new future fans to be able to dig back and find real-time reactions to specific productions (such as a specific episode or chapter). It's much easier to do this when the discussions are separated into these unique threads.

Q: When will new threads be created?

A: Threads for new/upcoming manga chapters will be created by a Kanzenshuu administrator at an appropriate point in time following the release of a previous chapter, and ahead of that next chapter's release schedule (which itself includes the official drafts/storyboards).

Q: OK, so what do you expect us to actually discuss in a chapter thread, particularly ahead of its release?

A: For some time now, Shueisha (in all likelihood to combat "leaks" and illegal piracy) has released "draft" pages of upcoming chapters in the two weeks leading up to any given chapter's release. These are official pieces of information dissemination and absolutely up for discussion. We welcome questions about where and how to legally and officially consume the manga. We do not condone nor allow the discussion or encouragement of piracy. Following a chapter's release, of course anything relating to that chapter and its contents are up for discussion in a specific thread.

Q: What kinds of "sources" can we discuss?

A: You can discuss whatever you want, so long as it lives up to the community guidelines. It is recommended that you link to / discuss actual sources of information, rather than second-hand accounts. Twitter and its users are not "sources" of information. Shueisha has its own official Dragon Ball website and weekly news broadcast on YouTube, which will in all likelihood be your actual primary sources of information leading up to a chapter's release.

Q: What if I have something to say about another chapter that's not this chapter?

A: Is what you have to say/ask/post even tangentially related to this chapter? That's fine. Does it have absolutely nothing to do with this chapter? Post it elsewhere. These chapter-specific threads do not automatically close after a new chapter comes out; you are free to keep discussing a specific chapter for as long as you all feel like talking about it.

Q: So what do we do with the big/main thread?

A: The dedicated / larger / all-encompassing ongoing thread is still perfect for overall/holistic discussion regarding the manga, its production, its promotion, its content relation to other parts of the franchise, etc.

Q: I want to learn more about what's going on with this manga's production!

A: Check out Episode #0489 of our podcast for an extreme deep-dive (with all the receipts you can eat!) into the production of the manga, including all of the ways that Toyotaro, Akira Toriyama, and Victory Uchida each individually contribute to it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:11 am

It's probably going to be addressed in the chapter proper, but going just by the summary, it kinda seems like Dragon Ball Super Super Hero takes place in the same year as Granolah saga. If that turns out to be the case, Moro saga will have to change too, as it takes place just a few months before it.

Anyway, hopefully Toyotaro gets rid of any "gag" scenes with Goku and Vegeta during their training (seen in the movie). These dudes should be trembling in fear of Freeza. They should be training for their lives... literally.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Geraldo » Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:38 am

Toyotaro and Toriyama surely don't keep track of their own work.

Pan was born a few months prior to Resurrection 'F', the Tournament of Power took place about a year later so she's 1 year old going 2; then shortly after 'Broly' happened, and she's still not 2 years old, a few more months took for the whole moro arc to happen (less than 3 months of crisis in-universe) and she's about 2 years old; it didn't took too long for the Granolah arc to happen and this whole story is sat in the same month in-universe, meaning she's not 3 years old. In "Super Hero" she's stated to be 3 years old going 4.

The gap is of about a year. This is absolutely idiotic to not keep track of the timeline and retcon the story all the time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:52 am

Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:11 am Anyway, hopefully Toyotaro gets rid of any "gag" scenes with Goku and Vegeta during their training (seen in the movie). These dudes should be trembling in fear of Freeza. They should be training for their lives... literally.
There have always been moments of levity even the most dire of situations. I'd argue that's what makes it uniquely Dragon Ball with Toriyama's specific brand of delivery and sharp dialog in those moments.
Geraldo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:38 am This is absolutely idiotic to not keep track of the timeline and retcon the story all the time.
You haven't seen what the new story arc in the manga is going to do or say. It's bizarre to be calling things that you don't know "idiotic", and were I not a moderator trying to set an example, I wouldn't want to engage with these kind of hyperbolic, off-putting comments.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:05 am

I was not expecting the Super Hero arc to take place so close in time to the Granola arc. I wonder if we will see Son Goten and Trunks commenting on their new growth spurts in a way beyond just "Oh, we're taller now?"s
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:36 am

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:52 amThere have always been moments of levity even the most dire of situations. I'd argue that's what makes it uniquely Dragon Ball with Toriyama's specific brand of delivery and sharp dialog in those moments.
Yeah, but I mean... Like this Freeza situation? Off the top of my head I recall the Majin Buu one, Vegeta wanting to eliminate him while everyone else refused. But in that case, Majin Buu had just fought with them and there was the whole Mister Satan's relationship and whatnot that they knew about. They had a reason to let Majin Buu run around, even if at that point he was stronger.

Here, Freeza simply came out of nowhere and defeated them in their strongest forms. I would be terrified for a while! Maybe I want to see Goku and Vegeta terrified for a change, it'd probably be interesting. Also, I am going by the summary, which doesn't lead me to think there is a timeskip between Granolah and the movie, but if the manga establishes a timeskip, then I think it would be fine for them to have moments of levity.
Geraldo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:38 amthe Tournament of Power took place about a year later so she's 1 year old going 2
We only use "going X" in case of assumptions and/or to avoid problems. She is one year old in Universe Survival saga.
Geraldo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:38 am; then shortly after 'Broly' happened, and she's still not 2 years old, a few more months took for the whole moro arc to happen (less than 3 months of crisis in-universe) and she's about 2 years old
Well, that would depend on when you place Dragon Ball Super Broly. For convenience, I place it on the same year as Universe Survival saga, that would mean Pan is still one year old during the events of the movie.

We don't know the timeskip between Dragon Ball Super Broly and the Moro saga. You can freely move the latter to take place between AGE 780 and AGE 781 (if the latter suits you better, you can say she's two years old just fine).
Geraldo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:38 amin "Super Hero" she's stated to be 3 years old going 4.
Nope, it's just said she's three years old, "going 4" is nowhere to be found in the movie. There's nothing in the movie suggesting that, so for now, Dragon Ball Super Super Hero takes place in AGE 782, two years before the tournament.

The "going X" appears here, where the manga says she's four in the tournament, but if you do simple math, you'll find out Pan is actually five years old. We must assume the tournament takes place before her birthday, so she's four but is turning five at some point after the tournament.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Geraldo » Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:51 am

Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:36 am
Geraldo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:38 amPan was born a few months prior to Resurrection 'F'
We don't know that.
We actually do know that. Pan was shown to be a few months old in her debut episode (15?) of Dragon Ball Super. She was already recognising her grandfather, Mr. Satan, and playing with Gohan as he gets home. This was before Sorbet and Tagoma revived Frieza. So, that settles the case.
Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:36 am
Geraldo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:38 amthe Tournament of Power took place about a year later so she's 1 year old going 2
We only use "going X" in case of assumptions and/or to avoid problems. She is one year old in Universe Survival saga.
This is based upon the 1 year cooldown period of the Super Dragon Balls. They were used in the Champa Saga and later in the Universal Survival Arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:19 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:36 am
VegettoEX wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:52 amThere have always been moments of levity even the most dire of situations. I'd argue that's what makes it uniquely Dragon Ball with Toriyama's specific brand of delivery and sharp dialog in those moments.
Yeah, but I mean... Like this Freeza situation? Off the top of my head I recall the Majin Buu one, Vegeta wanting to eliminate him while everyone else refused. But in that case, Majin Buu had just fought with them and there was the whole Mister Satan's relationship and whatnot that they knew about. They had a reason to let Majin Buu run around, even if at that point he was stronger.

Here, Freeza simply came out of nowhere and defeated them in their strongest forms. I would be terrified for a while! Maybe I want to see Goku and Vegeta terrified for a change, it'd probably be interesting. Also, I am going by the summary, which doesn't lead me to think there is a timeskip between Granolah and the movie, but if the manga establishes a timeskip, then I think it would be fine for them to have moments of levity.
I don't mean to be rude, but, I think that what you want only happens in bad DB fanfics, and I say "bad" because being melodramatic and serious to the point of 0 humor is the most anti-Dragon Ball you can be (IMO), even if the series is not as humoristic as started in the OG DB days, Z sill had humor between the serious moments, and Super is a bit more humoristic than Z, they can be concerned or even "terrified" and still eat, smile and make some gags, because that's what Dragon Ball does.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:28 pm

Geraldo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:51 amWe actually do know that. Pan was shown to be a few months old in her debut episode (15?) of Dragon Ball Super.
Well, I was talking about the movie, since it's the continuity I follow. For all we know, Pan could have been born in the week prior to the beginning of the movie (and I would argue we should assume something like that). If Dragon Ball Super screws that, then it's Toei's and whoever follows the anime continuity's problem.
Geraldo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:51 amThis is based upon the 1 year cooldown period of the Super Dragon Balls. They were used in the Champa Saga and later in the Universal Survival Arc.
I know. And the Universe 6 saga takes place in AGE 779, that's when the Super Dragon Balls were first used. Then, one year later, used again in Universe Survival saga, AGE 780. Like I said, it means Pan is one year old.
YamiGoku wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:19 pmI don't mean to be rude, but, I think that what you want only happens in bad DB fanfics, and I say "bad" because being melodramatic and serious to the point of 0 humor is the most anti-Dragon Ball you can be (IMO), even if the series is not as humoristic as started in the OG DB days, Z sill had humor between the serious moments, and Super is a bit more humoristic than Z, they can be concerned or even "terrified" and still eat, smile and make some gags, because that's what Dragon Ball does.
Goku and Vegeta (well, mostly Vegeta) showed concern about Freeza in Dragon Ball Super Broly. All I'm saying is we should have something like that, only to a bit greater effect because, like I said, they were easily defeated in their strongest forms. If Vegeta was already concerned about letting Freeza out there after Universe Survivial saga, he should be terrified about leaving Freeza out there after Granolah saga.

What is extremely weird is "eating, smiling and making some gags" without even acknowleding the danger out there, which is exactly Dragon Ball Super Super Hero does and the opposite of what Dragon Ball Super Broly does (yes, I know why there is no acknowledgement out-universe speaking. Which just leads to another issue I have).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:17 pm

I'm excited for the comeback! I got a surprising amount of enjoyment out of this one low-resolution draft page.

Re: Attitudes about Black Freeza: He did spare them, and he's not trying to mess with them at the moment. Goku's laid back because he's Goku, but Vegeta is clearly concerned.

Re: the timeline: I couldn't care less about precisely accounting for specific periods of time..."this happened after that" is enough for me. As for the boys, it might be fun to see the growth spurt play out in some way on the page. I'm looking forward to some gags...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by eledoremassis02 » Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:53 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:52 am
Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:11 am Anyway, hopefully Toyotaro gets rid of any "gag" scenes with Goku and Vegeta during their training (seen in the movie). These dudes should be trembling in fear of Freeza. They should be training for their lives... literally.
There have always been moments of levity even the most dire of situations. I'd argue that's what makes it uniquely Dragon Ball with Toriyama's specific brand of delivery and sharp dialog in those moments.
Even in this chapter sketch, Vegeta is the one who's focused while Beerus and Goku enjoy themselves
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:33 pm

I'll have to admit, I focused more on the summary and didn't pay much attention to the actual sketch (I never did), just glanced it really fast. Believe or not, I didn't see Vegeta seemingly worried about Freeza. Well, good thing Vegeta is doing what is expected.

Still, Goku just got his "missing piece" back. Now that he finally remembers everything, I don't know if he should come out of that experience 100% the way he was. He's a Saiyan, and just like Vegeta apparently, he should be worrying about Freeza, even if it's to a lesser extent than Vegeta. Again, I really hope Goku remembering stuff does cause something onto his personality, even it's a small thing, at some point... Otherwise this very important aspect would be completely pointless.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:52 pm

I hope we get some more context explaining why Vegeta turns his mind to Jiren during his mental training. It would be cool if we have a scene of him thinking back on their last several enemies. Gas, Granolah, Moro and Broly were all extremely strong, but the limits of their powers are known; Jiren's, on the other hand, are not. More so in the manga, where he wasn't beaten fairly by anyone, and the source of his powers are even more mysterious.

Already, the way this has all tied together is quite clean. I thought Goku and Vegeta were both out-of-character in the movie, but the reveal that the Cerealian shitstorm happened in such close proximity could at least go some ways towards justifying Vegeta's uncharacteristically foreboding demeanour as he realises he really has to knuckle down. His prediction of Freeza gaining a new power-up came true, exactly as he feared. Goku, I'm not so sure about... maybe that punch from Black Freeza rattled his skull one too many times and made him forget meditation training? :think:

As for timeline discrepancies about character's birthdates and stuff like that, is that really such a dealbreaker for people? It seems to come up constantly, it's just pissing me off now. Dragon Ball Super bascially operates on cartoon logic when it comes to dates and years, so I've never stressed on the exact details.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:45 pm

I think Goku downplaying meditation makes sense when you factor in Goku is moving away from the more collected approach of UI, and going the more raw route for TUI.

Now, do I buy it was all neatly planned in advance? Nope. But it could add up at the end of the day.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragmobot12 » Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:59 pm

I don't know guys, having Frieza as future main villain for the third time is so Disney Star Wars, like, are we moving on or we're not? What's the deal here?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by theherodjl » Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:15 am

The impression I'm getting here is that Freeza isn't just a bit stronger than Goku & Vegeta like during the RoF arc, he's now way stronger and represents a new wall that both Saiyans have to overcome. I'm guessing it's going to take more than simple training for several months to be able to challenge Black Freeza: Goku & Vegeta will have to push their respective Ultra forms even further or possibly perfect them to overcome the progress that Freeza has evidently made. I don't doubt that they can but it's probably not going to be as easy as trying to get a better handle on SSJ, the Ultra stuff seems more based on where Goku & Vegeta are willing to see themselves rather than genetic power ups that have a limit.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by eledoremassis02 » Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:43 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:45 pm I think Goku downplaying meditation makes sense when you factor in Goku is moving away from the more collected approach of UI, and going the more raw route for TUI.

Now, do I buy it was all neatly planned in advance? Nope. But it could add up at the end of the day.
I think the surprise hit of Super Hero really changed things and just happend to fall into the hiadus. A part of me feels like this new arc was more mandate than plan (though it does fall into people who wanted more Trunks and Goten). It actually takes me back to Supers routs (the BOG retelling)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:55 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:28 pm
YamiGoku wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:19 pmI don't mean to be rude, but, I think that what you want only happens in bad DB fanfics, and I say "bad" because being melodramatic and serious to the point of 0 humor is the most anti-Dragon Ball you can be (IMO), even if the series is not as humoristic as started in the OG DB days, Z sill had humor between the serious moments, and Super is a bit more humoristic than Z, they can be concerned or even "terrified" and still eat, smile and make some gags, because that's what Dragon Ball does.
Goku and Vegeta (well, mostly Vegeta) showed concern about Freeza in Dragon Ball Super Broly. All I'm saying is we should have something like that, only to a bit greater effect because, like I said, they were easily defeated in their strongest forms. If Vegeta was already concerned about letting Freeza out there after Universe Survivial saga, he should be terrified about leaving Freeza out there after Granolah saga.

What is extremely weird is "eating, smiling and making some gags" without even acknowleding the danger out there, which is exactly Dragon Ball Super Super Hero does and the opposite of what Dragon Ball Super Broly does (yes, I know why there is no acknowledgement out-universe speaking. Which just leads to another issue I have).
Vegeta showed concern in Broly, followed by a Gag of calling Goku an Idiot, thats the most you can expect, I really don't think that Toriyama/Toyotaro will just show Goku/Vegeta in serious mode for a "large" amount of time or something like that, I dont remember a threat in the OG or in Z that made Goku or the rest of the cast remain serious for a long time, Hell even when we got the first major death in the series when Krillin was killed and Goku got super pissed, he went from vengeful rage, to oh I'm hungry, hey look a fish, followed with a bunch of gags when he met Yajirobe.

In Toei eyes, Super Hero cant acknowledge Black Frieza without confusing the anime only fans, there wasnt a reason for them to look concern if they cant explain why they look concern, but even if they put that on the movie, I dont think it would have amounted to much in terms of acting concerned/serious.

In the end I hope the new ark makes us both happy, and everyone likes it, I need the DB comeback, I like Super Hero but I want more good stuff.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:32 am

Toyotaro's drafts seem a bit rougher this month? I think that's probably a good thing...his drafts were always unusually detailed. Maybe it's because the editors wanted a better sense of what he was going to publish. Either way, hopefully he's taking some notes from Toriyama about cutting corners.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 88 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:57 am

There are way too many panels on some of those pages.
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