Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Psajdak » Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:16 pm

I think ever since his fight with Vegeta in Saiyan Saga (or maybe even earlier), Toei has been in love with often portraying Goku as underdog idiot, to be underestimated by his opponents, only for them to change their mind when he starts showing what he's actually capable of, and there's another side to him when he's fighting.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:34 am

super michael wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:43 am In DBS anime and DBS movie, it is like Toei always has to have Goku doing and saying dumb things. Goku does things in DBS, which contradicts what he learned in DB/DBZ, but the question is why.

With age Goku should be getting wise, not dumb instead.
the main ideas of that don't come only from toei...
in the manga goku does the same things....

-forget the seal to lock up zamasu with the mafuba
-he isnot knowing what a kiss is...
-he is accept not having been at gohan's birth as if it didn't matter

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by super michael » Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:28 am

Tai Lung wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:34 am
super michael wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:43 am In DBS anime and DBS movie, it is like Toei always has to have Goku doing and saying dumb things. Goku does things in DBS, which contradicts what he learned in DB/DBZ, but the question is why.

With age Goku should be getting wise, not dumb instead.
the main ideas of that don't come only from toei...
in the manga goku does the same things....

-forget the seal to lock up zamasu with the mafuba
-he isnot knowing what a kiss is...
-he is accept not having been at gohan's birth as if it didn't matter
- Goku got the tag, he did not forget it. Master Roshi handed him a coupon instead of talisman, therefore the mistake was Roshi.
- In the original manga we don't know if Goku and Chi Chi kiss in the mouth.
- This one was bad Goku not being there for his kid. That is a good point.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jun 21, 2023 4:09 pm

This >>>>>> goku toei
Image

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by super michael » Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:27 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 4:09 pm This >>>>>> goku toei
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DBS Manga Goku does dumb things but way less often than DBS Anime who constantly says and does dumb things.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jun 22, 2023 6:50 pm

super michael wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:27 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 4:09 pm This >>>>>> goku toei
Image
DBS Manga Goku does dumb things but way less often than DBS Anime who constantly says and does dumb things.
This is much dumber than anything goku has ever done in the anime

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by super michael » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:42 am

Tai Lung wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 6:50 pm
super michael wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:27 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 4:09 pm This >>>>>> goku toei
Image
DBS Manga Goku does dumb things but way less often than DBS Anime who constantly says and does dumb things.
This is much dumber than anything goku has ever done in the anime
I can agree that is worse than anything DBS Anime Goku has done.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Alkiser » Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:24 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 6:50 pm
super michael wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:27 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 4:09 pm This >>>>>> goku toei
Image
DBS Manga Goku does dumb things but way less often than DBS Anime who constantly says and does dumb things.
This is much dumber than anything goku has ever done in the anime
I disagree with you because in this case Goku had Moro under full control, to the point that Moro broke his hand on his chest. In the case of Cell it was Goku who literally gave him an even greater advantage by doing so because at that moment there was no one stronger than Cell.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:58 am

Alkiser wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:24 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 6:50 pm
super michael wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:27 pm

DBS Manga Goku does dumb things but way less often than DBS Anime who constantly says and does dumb things.
This is much dumber than anything goku has ever done in the anime
I disagree with you because in this case Goku had Moro under full control, to the point that Moro broke his hand on his chest. In the case of Cell it was Goku who literally gave him an even greater advantage by doing so because at that moment there was no one stronger than Cell.
It doesn't change that moro can be able to do this.....
Image
Gohan had cell under control .... And goku said
Image

Goku doesn't know all the abilities of him (angel power) ... same as cell bomb

And the reason is much worse... Goku wanted Moro to redeem himself even though he was pure evil

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Alkiser » Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am

Tai Lung wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:58 am
Alkiser wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:24 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 6:50 pm

This is much dumber than anything goku has ever done in the anime
I disagree with you because in this case Goku had Moro under full control, to the point that Moro broke his hand on his chest. In the case of Cell it was Goku who literally gave him an even greater advantage by doing so because at that moment there was no one stronger than Cell.
It doesn't change that moro can be able to do this.....
Image
Gohan had cell under control .... And goku said
Image

Goku doesn't know all the abilities of him (angel power) ... same as cell bomb

And the reason is much worse... Goku wanted Moro to redeem himself even though he was pure evil
What you are writing about is not related to any hidden Moro power, and the floating hand in the lava is related to the power of Merus. It would have been enough then that the severed hand was not there and Moro would have died anyway. Goku acted according to his earthly morals he learned on earth, in the case of Cella it was not about any desire for redemption about Gohan's unnecessary fun, while in the case of Cella there was an ulterior motive and it was necessary to get rid of him so Moro was saved by the accidental floating hand which was pure salvation and not Moro's sly plan. And as I mentioned moments after receiving the seznu Moro returned to its damaged state so the whole motive comes out to zero.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:09 pm

Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am What you are writing about is not related to any hidden Moro power, and the floating hand in the lava is related to the power of Merus
Which was in the Moro hand due to one of his abilities
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am It would have been enough then that the severed hand was not there and Moro would have died anyway
Again the goat had shown rare magic and surviving in space... destroying the earth was something possible
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am Goku acted according to his earthly morals he learned on earth, in the case of Cella it was not about any desire for redemption about Gohan's unnecessary fun, while in the case of Cella there was an ulterior motive and it was necessary to get rid of him
Image
Previously, Merus had died when facing Moro and Goku knows that Moro killed many others... And the only reason Goku forgives his enemies is because he is afraid of running out of strong opponents, that happened with Vegeta and Piccolo... .. Nothing else but that doesn't make sense with moro .... Moro was a dangerous assassin just like cell or buu
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am And as I mentioned moments after receiving the seznu Moro returned to its damaged state so the whole motive comes out to zero.
The more time he gave him to survive.... He gave him more opportunity.... Is symple

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Alkiser » Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:05 am

Tai Lung wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:09 pm
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am What you are writing about is not related to any hidden Moro power, and the floating hand in the lava is related to the power of Merus
Which was in the Moro hand due to one of his abilities
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am It would have been enough then that the severed hand was not there and Moro would have died anyway
Again the goat had shown rare magic and surviving in space... destroying the earth was something possible
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am Goku acted according to his earthly morals he learned on earth, in the case of Cella it was not about any desire for redemption about Gohan's unnecessary fun, while in the case of Cella there was an ulterior motive and it was necessary to get rid of him
Image
Previously, Merus had died when facing Moro and Goku knows that Moro killed many others... And the only reason Goku forgives his enemies is because he is afraid of running out of strong opponents, that happened with Vegeta and Piccolo... .. Nothing else but that doesn't make sense with moro .... Moro was a dangerous assassin just like cell or buu
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am And as I mentioned moments after receiving the seznu Moro returned to its damaged state so the whole motive comes out to zero.
The more time he gave him to survive.... He gave him more opportunity.... Is symple
Still, it was nothing like Moro planned and pure luck. He planned to do it a chapter earlier and Goku sent him kicking into the lava so argument disproven. But you remember that the killing of Piccolo's minion Daimao happened before Goku started training with Kami and before he started sparing the lives of individuals like Piccolo, Vegeta, Ginyu Ward, Frieza, Fat Buu?

Goku literally explained his course of action in the same saga during the last Merus flashback in which Merus talked to Goku. This is not a question of Goku's stupidity and a question of his earthiness after all, at the end of Chapter 64 he decided to fight as an earthling.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Jun 30, 2023 8:38 pm

Alkiser wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:05 am
Tai Lung wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:09 pm
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am What you are writing about is not related to any hidden Moro power, and the floating hand in the lava is related to the power of Merus
Which was in the Moro hand due to one of his abilities
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am It would have been enough then that the severed hand was not there and Moro would have died anyway
Again the goat had shown rare magic and surviving in space... destroying the earth was something possible
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am Goku acted according to his earthly morals he learned on earth, in the case of Cella it was not about any desire for redemption about Gohan's unnecessary fun, while in the case of Cella there was an ulterior motive and it was necessary to get rid of him
Image
Previously, Merus had died when facing Moro and Goku knows that Moro killed many others... And the only reason Goku forgives his enemies is because he is afraid of running out of strong opponents, that happened with Vegeta and Piccolo... .. Nothing else but that doesn't make sense with moro .... Moro was a dangerous assassin just like cell or buu
Alkiser wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:57 am And as I mentioned moments after receiving the seznu Moro returned to its damaged state so the whole motive comes out to zero.
The more time he gave him to survive.... He gave him more opportunity.... Is symple
Still, it was nothing like Moro planned and pure luck. He planned to do it a chapter earlier and Goku sent him kicking into the lava so argument disproven. But you remember that the killing of Piccolo's minion Daimao happened before Goku started training with Kami and before he started sparing the lives of individuals like Piccolo, Vegeta, Ginyu Ward, Frieza, Fat Buu?

Goku literally explained his course of action in the same saga during the last Merus flashback in which Merus talked to Goku. This is not a question of Goku's stupidity and a question of his earthiness after all, at the end of Chapter 64 he decided to fight as an earthling.
For goku to be fully sure that nothing would happen, he would have to know all of moro's abilities and their limits... It's not the case... He lowered his guard, Frieza literally killed everyone in ROF for that reason
Do you want to see it as just luck? I agree but not for me ... Luck is irrelevant without the opportunities (2) that Moro received

The only chance that Goku gave (and only because he begged him)
Image

Recoome, nappa and burter were left quadriplegic by goku and this at least in the manga goku never offers a senzu bean ....
Goku leaving him alive isn't even the problem... it's "how"... giving him a senzu... And when he attacked again... Goku still didn't do anything
More time and more opportunity ....

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Alkiser » Sat Jul 01, 2023 7:35 am

Tai Lung wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 8:38 pm
Alkiser wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:05 am
Tai Lung wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:09 pm

Which was in the Moro hand due to one of his abilities



Again the goat had shown rare magic and surviving in space... destroying the earth was something possible



Image
Previously, Merus had died when facing Moro and Goku knows that Moro killed many others... And the only reason Goku forgives his enemies is because he is afraid of running out of strong opponents, that happened with Vegeta and Piccolo... .. Nothing else but that doesn't make sense with moro .... Moro was a dangerous assassin just like cell or buu



The more time he gave him to survive.... He gave him more opportunity.... Is symple
Still, it was nothing like Moro planned and pure luck. He planned to do it a chapter earlier and Goku sent him kicking into the lava so argument disproven. But you remember that the killing of Piccolo's minion Daimao happened before Goku started training with Kami and before he started sparing the lives of individuals like Piccolo, Vegeta, Ginyu Ward, Frieza, Fat Buu?

Goku literally explained his course of action in the same saga during the last Merus flashback in which Merus talked to Goku. This is not a question of Goku's stupidity and a question of his earthiness after all, at the end of Chapter 64 he decided to fight as an earthling.
For goku to be fully sure that nothing would happen, he would have to know all of moro's abilities and their limits... It's not the case... He lowered his guard, Frieza literally killed everyone in ROF for that reason
Do you want to see it as just luck? I agree but not for me ... Luck is irrelevant without the opportunities (2) that Moro received

The only chance that Goku gave (and only because he begged him)
Image

Recoome, nappa and burter were left quadriplegic by goku and this at least in the manga goku never offers a senzu bean ....
Goku leaving him alive isn't even the problem... it's "how"... giving him a senzu... And when he attacked again... Goku still didn't do anything
More time and more opportunity ....
Goku was willing to let Ginyu force leave Namek after defeating Reecom, in the case of Frieza he was willing to leave him alive even before Frieza beheaded himself with his energy disk, on top of that he was also offering Frieza to learn some new moves, so he was even able to leave him relatively intact to defeat him again later.

The ROF example would have made sense if Moro hadn't tried to destroy the earth in Chapter 64, which cost him being dug into a geyser of lava by Goku. Moro no longer had any viable options until a happily floating hand that he himself did not expect.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by super michael » Mon Jul 03, 2023 4:32 pm

Goku has done dumb things there is no denying that, however when it comes to quantity Goku is none stop saying and doing dumb things. There are episodes dedicated to Goku being stupid.

The Monaka episode was just dumb.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by ChronoTwigger » Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:25 am

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:27 am
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:38 pm
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:56 pm You may think it's annoying, but the profits say otherwise. Folks gotta understand that unlike most anime, your internet bubble is legitimately insignificant. There a far more people with widely different perspectives than what you see on the internet. Most fans aren't even thinking about this, that hard.

The amount of people who enjoy Goku's comical dumbness far outweighs those that don't. It's just the reality. Goku is Homer Jay Simpson if he liked fighting instead of donuts.

Dragon Ball is EXTREMELY subversive in that way. Almost everyone around him is a far more serious character than him. He's like Bugs Bunny placed in Charlie Brown. Except Goku's passion actually gets him in serious trouble. He's Sun Wukong more than people actually realize.

No one's dumber than Goku, no cares less than Goku, but no one's more correct than Goku in the end. With the whole introduction of the Ultras it's clear that they haven't abandoned Journey to the West. Goku's impossible dumbness is a gag that illustrates he's above it all. Goku always goes back to the guy he was right before every saga starts. It's not a coincidence.
How many people actively praise Goku's dumber characterisation, though? Is this really something that fans around the world hanker for out of their Dragon Ball media, or is it just a peripheral element that people grin and bear through to get to the more appealing aspects of Goku's character (e.g. friendly personality, amazing powers, love of strong opponents), amongst all of the other things that make Dragon Ball an internationally beloved IP? While I think the latter is more likely based on interactions I've had with fans both online and in real life, it's impossible to say with any certainty because you're making an extremely broad, generalised assumption here based purely on box office figures.

I'm not here to deny that Goku's social cluelessness is a big part of his character, but it was a strange move to suddenly start arguing ad populum here. Of course users on a niche fan forum are going to overthink and take umbrage with trivial things that general audiences don't spare a single stray thought towards, but it doesn't make their opinions any less valid. On an entirely subjective level, I just don't find many of the "dumb Goku" jokes very funny, particularly when they're used to undermine his overall characterisation as we understand it.
Goku is still arguably Dragon Ball's most popular character, to this day. Likely the most popular character in all of anime and manga. The franchise has reached new heights whilst relying heavily on him. Also something people on this very minute section of the internet constantly complain about. Despite it being cash-money... Largely because of Goku...

These facts clearly outweigh whatever a section of the fandom thinks on the internet. People grin and bare his comical idiocy to continue to prop him up as arguably the greatest anime character of all time, even after several decades?

That sounds like a reach. Most people enjoy the fact that Goku is comically stupid. The creators wouldn't keep doing it if that wasn't the case. It's a joke. That's a far easier assumption.

Idk if people are leaving Dragon Ball and watching/reading other anime/manga and coming back, forgetting what Dragon Ball is/was or what.

It's not One Piece or Bleach. Dragon Ball's really silly. Goku and Arale are neck & neck.
Profit is nothing. Mafia is doing a lot of profits right now. So mafia is correct?

Is not about comedy. As you, I like more original than DBZ.
It's a matter of COHERENCY.

Vegeta = hot headed, rushing, blast-all proud prince of Sayan. He just learned to channel his destruction instinct.
Goku = naive but strongly scrupulous Earthling hero. Whatever Toriyama say, Goku save the Universe coming with ideas on the fly, driven by feels.

Now you'll see Vegeta the savvy student, Goku unaware of meditation training, and WTF how they didn't came with that some years ago? Not wasting energy? How Goku didn't noticed?!?!

Let's rewrite the scene.
Vegeta clash with Broly, just to lose.
-Why I cannot win?-
He notice Goku meditating and tell him that's not actual training and he's wasting time. Goku explain what he noticed while fighting Jiren (as it was Goku that *mostly* fought Jiren!): efficient KI management.
(Now for the comedy)
Vegeta: -So you're meditating to keep KI under control?-
Goku: -Meditating? No, right now I was just waiting for food. Soooo hungry!-
Vegeta shout, Goku eating babbling "You cannot meditate with an empty stomach". Just later again, Goku seems to meditate, while instead falling asleep for digestion. Vegeta angry again.
Finally, in DB style, Goku *really* meditating, and everyone notice a change in his KI signature. Wow!
Comedy served, DB mood delivered, and everyone still in role.

Do you understand now the issue? Is not the amount of comedy, is how they force comedy BADLY.
Practically, Toriyama and the staff have no more sense of humor and lost the grip on their characters.
Why so? You can age badly.
I learned english listening to songs. So I don't know anything about. The day you had to learn play piano by just listening .mp3, you'll understand.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by super michael » Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:33 pm

The problem with DBS Anime specifically is that they go overboard with comedy. They don't care if that comedy makes the character looks bad or contradicts whatever they learned in the past.
Goku was known to meditate in the past, while in DBS Super Heroes movie they didn't care they only thought of making Goku look dumb for comedy, which is just lazy writing.

Toriyama has Goten and Trunks not allowed in RoF along with Buu sleeping, then Toei just gets carried away.
Chi Chi isn't a bad character in DBS Manga, while in the anime she is terrible all for the sake of comedy.

Toei issue is they don't care about quality or if the writing is good.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Shinsa » Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:15 pm

super michael wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:33 pm The problem with DBS Anime specifically is that they go overboard with comedy. They don't care if that comedy makes the character looks bad or contradicts whatever they learned in the past.
Goku was known to meditate in the past, while in DBS Super Heroes movie they didn't care they only thought of making Goku look dumb for comedy, which is just lazy writing.

Toriyama has Goten and Trunks not allowed in RoF along with Buu sleeping, then Toei just gets carried away.
Chi Chi isn't a bad character in DBS Manga, while in the anime she is terrible all for the sake of comedy.

Toei issue is they don't care about quality or if the writing is good.
This is answer right here...
The fact that the fanbase is divided about Goku's character it proof that a lot of people are not happy with his character and how he was portrayed.
We can argue all we want about Goku's characterization but the reality is that Toei/Toriyama didn't put much care into it. DB as a whole is pretty inconsistent but this in my opinion is the worst inconsistency any writer can do specially with its MC. Much of the MCU films do it as well for some slap stick comedy which is only good for a quick laugh but at the characters expense. It's good for a wider audience and I think that's why they do it to get that quick giggle for quick viewership/sales.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by funrush » Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:49 pm

My explanation as for why Goku seems to get a little smarter during Buu arc but then goes back to being dumb again is that his brain damage is adding up :lol: , only so many times you can get hit in the head by planet busters without consequence.

He will be a stoner as an old man to cope with the constant concussion headaches. :lol:

In all seriousness, I think Goku has always been pretty dumb, and him getting slightly smarter at the end of Z is just something Toriyama hadn't put much thought into, or maybe he prefers to write Goku like a dummy.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by super michael » Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:31 am

funrush wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:49 pm My explanation as for why Goku seems to get a little smarter during Buu arc but then goes back to being dumb again is that his brain damage is adding up :lol: , only so many times you can get hit in the head by planet busters without consequence.

He will be a stoner as an old man to cope with the constant concussion headaches. :lol:

In all seriousness, I think Goku has always been pretty dumb, and him getting slightly smarter at the end of Z is just something Toriyama hadn't put much thought into, or maybe he prefers to write Goku like a dummy.

In DB was gaining more knowledge and getting less dumb and less ignorant. As for Goku not knowing what marriage is, does that make him dumb? If no one taught him what marriage was and never was around other humans, how is he supposed to know?
Is Goku dumb for not knowing how to create a cyborg?

DBS Goku lost many knowledge and skills that he knew in the past. He lost a lot of common sense also. Some episode was just Goku being dumb in DBS.

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