Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:20 pm

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:03 am
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Thanks. Goku should’ve had the contextual awareness to drop the subject as soon as Vegeta said that he was doing his own form of training, or at least not try to argue that Vegeta was fibbing and that sitting around didn’t count as real training. Goku should know that Vegeta is no slob, he wouldn’t be sitting in a meditative pose for no reason. Whatever they were going for here, the scene is poorly communicated overall and simply makes Goku look obnoxiously dumber than usual, hence people’s confusion.

I get flashbacks to the infamous Future Trunks arc kissing scene, which some fans fell over themselves to try and rationalise as a play on words, a funny miscommunication, etc. Only for the simplest explanation to be the truth, as revealed in the much terser manga version of the same scene based on Toriyama’s notes: Goku really didn’t know what kissing was and never kissed his wife.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Peril » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:51 pm

I think the easy answer is they believe children like this. A clear misunderstanding of the character. Which seems easy to do. Is Goku's personality really hard to grasp?

Is it normal for shounen protags to be stupid these days?

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:58 pm

Peril wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:51 pm I think the easy answer is they believe children like this. A clear misunderstanding of the character. Which seems easy to do. Is Goku's personality really hard to grasp?

Is it normal for shounen protags to be stupid these days?
Among the shounen comics I read I would say only Asta from Black Clover is really 'stupid' but even then he has his moments of emotional maturity (he's also surrounded by much more emotionally mature characters). Denji from Chainsaw Man is 'stupid' but only in the sense that he's emotionally stunted and inexperienced at first and grows up throughout the story.

I think the closest you can get to describing Gokuu is like Luffy from One Piece but it isn't like Toriyama's vision for Gokuu ever focused on a sense of making Gokuu this mature, relatable figure (and I would criticize that decision, too).
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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by super michael » Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:00 pm

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:03 am
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:45 am There are certainly ways of rationalising around the meditation scene that are valid, but I think the sloppy presentation is the main issue. I like when Goku gets to act dumb and goofy about stuff outside of training, but one of the quiet pleasures of genre fiction is seeing a protagonist who is intelligent and competent at the specific thing they do, which is usually the centrepiece of the story and setting. If Goku is presented as a clueless dolt even in the one area he’s supposed to specialise in (he may not be against meditation per se, but the fact that he acts all bewildered by it and needs a lecture from Whis certainly creates that effect), that’s going too far in my opinion. Imagine if Poirot was suddenly confused by basic deductive techniques while investigating a murder, or Blackjack forgot how to do surgery without explanation. What would be the point of these characters if they lost their skills at their jobs? Now, I don’t think Goku is suddenly gonna lose his competence at fighting, but the fact that he is this strategic genius in all areas of martial arts is key to his character and makes him enjoyable to see in action, and this scene completely undermines that. It doesn’t help that the following training battle scene also shows Goku as a hotheaded, pratfalling brute compared to the calm and collected Vegeta.
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This is what it says in the subs:

Goku: Hey, cut it out! If you sit still so long, you're gonna get rusty! The world is full of guys like Jiren, and Broly here and loads of other amazin' folks!

Vegeta: Shut up and don't interfere. This is training too.

Goku: You fibber! No way is that a form of trainin'!

Vegeta: You just don't get it.

Goku: What's to get?

Vegeta: Jiren was so overwhelmingly strong. And yet, his power really wasn't so different from our own.

Goku: Huh?

Vegeta: But he used his power with total efficiency. Didn't you notice? Even in the midst of battle, his body and spirit were both fully relaxed until the moment he struck.

Goku: Really?

Vegeta: Such an attack from nowhere can't be predicted by the enemy, and packs a tremendous punch. What's more, it allows one to conserve stamina.

Goku: Maybe so...

Vegeta: Jiren probably achieved it by instinct. So since I can't manage it myself, I'm starting out with mental training.

Whis: Ding ding ding! Outstanding! Truly outstanding, Vegeta-san! I'm impressed you've realized that.
You are absolutely correct! It's not training to simply beef up your body like an idiot.


[hr] (it is supposed to be a line)

That whole conversation contradicts Goku meditating with Kami. It contradicts him meditating in the ROSAT during the Cell Saga, Otherworld during the Buu Saga and DBS.

Vegeta was doing standing meditation in the Cell Saga, which Goku calls him a genius.
Goku unlocked SSJ Grade 2 and 3 with meditation. He unlocked True Ultra Instincts with meditation also.

Goku has patient to wait, seeing that he allowed Vegeta and Trunks to train first. He didn't budge in and interrupt their training.


Toei are so obsessed in making Goku dumb, they don't stop and think if it is good or if that contradicts anything. No they have to make Goku into a total idiot.


This is smart Goku:
https://youtu.be/q3amWxZr-3w

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Peril » Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:14 pm

It's like someone got Goku and Vegeta backwards. Granted by Super it makes sense Vegeta would understand the benefit of meditation. I don't understand why Goku is holding the stupid ball when Broly is right there. Let him ask the questions.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:26 am

I think Broly has only like 3 or 5 lines in the movie lmao

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by super michael » Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:24 am

Peril wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:14 pm It's like someone got Goku and Vegeta backwards. Granted by Super it makes sense Vegeta would understand the benefit of meditation. I don't understand why Goku is holding the stupid ball when Broly is right there. Let him ask the questions.
Good point there, most likely Broly was never taught about meditation, so for him to not know anything is normal.

So why does Goku have to be clueless one that is beyond me. Like I said Toei has this idea that Goku always has to be stupid.

Goku should have been teaching Broly about meditation.
Lets not forget how Goku knew why Ginyu wouldn't be able to use Goku body full power.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by coola » Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:57 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:20 pm
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:03 am
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Thanks. Goku should’ve had the contextual awareness to drop the subject as soon as Vegeta said that he was doing his own form of training, or at least not try to argue that Vegeta was fibbing and that sitting around didn’t count as real training. Goku should know that Vegeta is no slob, he wouldn’t be sitting in a meditative pose for no reason. Whatever they were going for here, the scene is poorly communicated overall and simply makes Goku look obnoxiously dumber than usual, hence people’s confusion.

I get flashbacks to the infamous Future Trunks arc kissing scene, which some fans fell over themselves to try and rationalise as a play on words, a funny miscommunication, etc. Only for the simplest explanation to be the truth, as revealed in the much terser manga version of the same scene based on Toriyama’s notes: Goku really didn’t know what kissing was and never kissed his wife.
Yeesh, thank Kami i ve skipped that movie, i feel like they really should let Goku go, they clearly have no idea what to do with him without making him OOC, this type of "comedy" don't fit anymore, it wasn't funny then, and it's not funny now (in my opinion, of course :) )
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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:33 pm

I swear Broly doesn’t even have that many lines. He really was rather wasted. I agree that he should’ve been the one curious about Goku and Vegeta’s training methods, since all he had before were simulations with Paragus. It just makes way more sense and is overall less of a headache.
coola wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:57 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:20 pm
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:03 am
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Thanks. Goku should’ve had the contextual awareness to drop the subject as soon as Vegeta said that he was doing his own form of training, or at least not try to argue that Vegeta was fibbing and that sitting around didn’t count as real training. Goku should know that Vegeta is no slob, he wouldn’t be sitting in a meditative pose for no reason. Whatever they were going for here, the scene is poorly communicated overall and simply makes Goku look obnoxiously dumber than usual, hence people’s confusion.

I get flashbacks to the infamous Future Trunks arc kissing scene, which some fans fell over themselves to try and rationalise as a play on words, a funny miscommunication, etc. Only for the simplest explanation to be the truth, as revealed in the much terser manga version of the same scene based on Toriyama’s notes: Goku really didn’t know what kissing was and never kissed his wife.
Yeesh, thank Kami i ve skipped that movie, i feel like they really should let Goku go, they clearly have no idea what to do with him without making him OOC, this type of "comedy" don't fit anymore, it wasn't funny then, and it's not funny now (in my opinion, of course :) )
Eh, it’s ultimately a brief and fairly inconsequential segment in the movie (one that many people agree could’ve easily been omitted entirely), I’d say the rest is worth a watch. The momentum of the central conflict suffers towards the end, that’s my other major criticism.

What I find confusing is that Toriyama himself seemed to realise that the gag of Goku being confused by simple concepts wore out its welcome way back in the second arc of the original manga, when Roshi told him to shut up and gave him some basic education as part of his training. Toriyama seemingly looked back on that very embryonic characterisation for child Goku and thought it was the peak of his comedic excellence, so decided to heap an extra dose of it onto a nearly 50-year-old Goku.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:03 pm

I think it's because Dragon Ball is FAR MORE of a comedy than what people who only have watched Z realize.

Super went back to its roots and honestly... I love it.

Goku is impossibly dumb AND a fighting genius, but it's supposed to be goofy that way. The anime AND manga LITERALLY does not take itself as seriously as other Shonen. Dragon Ball is a lot closer to something like Family Guy than it is to Naruto, if you watch/read it closely.

Dragon Ball Super, just like the OG, is hyper-goofy until asses need to get kicked and even then it finds a way to ram a few jokes in. I seriously don't know how people take the franchise this seriously when you realize what "Ultra Instinct & Ego" translate to in Japanese. Like we seriously just had an entire arc with a dude named Granola and Toyo just confirmed Freeza's forms are based off of Credit Cards. Like seriously 🤣

Goku's dumb cuz it's funny. My mind was literally blown at how mad internet people were getting when Goku didn't know what a kiss was. He's so stupid it's impossible, Vegeta's reaction in english was priceless. Everyone on the block laughed, but when you got on the internet, all you saw were tantrums. Gotta admit tho, that was funny, too.😂

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by super michael » Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:34 am

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:03 pm I think it's because Dragon Ball is FAR MORE of a comedy than what people who only have watched Z realize.

Super went back to its roots and honestly... I love it.

Goku is impossibly dumb AND a fighting genius, but it's supposed to be goofy that way. The anime AND manga LITERALLY does not take itself as seriously as other Shonen. Dragon Ball is a lot closer to something like Family Guy than it is to Naruto, if you watch/read it closely.

Dragon Ball Super, just like the OG, is hyper-goofy until asses need to get kicked and even then it finds a way to ram a few jokes in. I seriously don't know how people take the franchise this seriously when you realize what "Ultra Instinct & Ego" translate to in Japanese. Like we seriously just had an entire arc with a dude named Granola and Toyo just confirmed Freeza's forms are based off of Credit Cards. Like seriously 🤣

Goku's dumb cuz it's funny. My mind was literally blown at how mad internet people were getting when Goku didn't know what a kiss was. He's so stupid it's impossible, Vegeta's reaction in english was priceless. Everyone on the block laughed, but when you got on the internet, all you saw were tantrums. Gotta admit tho, that was funny, too.😂
Doing dumb thing can be funny, however Toei goes way to far that it becomes annoying. Toei doesn't know when to stop, Toei doesn't care if it contradict said character.

As DB progress, Goku matured and learned. Sure Goku doesn't know certain things like marriage, but Goku was never taught what marriage was.

In DBS anime Goku doesn't know the things he learned in the past.

As for Goku not knowing how to play baseball or kissing in the mouth, there is no evidence he learned about those things.



The problem isn't the fans, the problem is Toei who doesn't care about quality writing.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by dva_raza » Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:19 pm

Cipher wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:40 pm I also think fans tend to overblow it. The context of the scene is that they’ve come to Beerus’ planet for training, and Vegeta has just been sitting around during that time, while Goku is looking to practice. It’s not really egregious to have him be frustrated by it. The line where he comes down on meditation as a whole is … not in the film and invented entirely in fans’ heads.

That said, certain traits of Goku’s, like certain traits of everyone’s, get a little exaggerated in the movies because they’re written as condensed stories that have to communicate character elements and work both action and humor into 90 minutes.
Well not only the point isn’t whether Vegeta gave an exact definition of the term meditation or not, which he did, the point is what he explained to be doing, whatever that is, by no means is something Goku should be ignorant of, so if fans are the ones who named that ‘meditation’ is not really relevant at all.

And regarding the context, you’re saying Goku was basically in a mood for something more active, awesome, except that contradicts literally nothing about the reaction and the words he says making no sense unless I have to assume he had a stroke in that scene.

And no, I don’t think something having a comedic tone is excuse to shit on basic things that make the characters who they are.

The main character’s primary trait as a martial artist being his openness to new ways of training is what makes him saying “no way is that a form of training” plain and simple character assassination, yeah just that little line. And first time ever I personally have an issue with the writing in this series.

Which is probably cause it wasn’t the typical mistake or stupid things for humor as there are plenty, this was deliberate. The reason it was done is pathetic and doesn't need to be defended.
Pandering to public is one of the cheapest things someone could resort to in writing in my opinion.

Like there’s no pretext that it’s a minor or insignificant thing or something. No dude, Goku and Vegeta’s dynamic is the basis of the current storyline.
Shoving this to justify putting Vegeta on top is a disservice to him almost as much as to Goku.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:56 pm

super michael wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:34 am
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:03 pm I think it's because Dragon Ball is FAR MORE of a comedy than what people who only have watched Z realize.

Super went back to its roots and honestly... I love it.

Goku is impossibly dumb AND a fighting genius, but it's supposed to be goofy that way. The anime AND manga LITERALLY does not take itself as seriously as other Shonen. Dragon Ball is a lot closer to something like Family Guy than it is to Naruto, if you watch/read it closely.

Dragon Ball Super, just like the OG, is hyper-goofy until asses need to get kicked and even then it finds a way to ram a few jokes in. I seriously don't know how people take the franchise this seriously when you realize what "Ultra Instinct & Ego" translate to in Japanese. Like we seriously just had an entire arc with a dude named Granola and Toyo just confirmed Freeza's forms are based off of Credit Cards. Like seriously 🤣

Goku's dumb cuz it's funny. My mind was literally blown at how mad internet people were getting when Goku didn't know what a kiss was. He's so stupid it's impossible, Vegeta's reaction in english was priceless. Everyone on the block laughed, but when you got on the internet, all you saw were tantrums. Gotta admit tho, that was funny, too.😂
Doing dumb thing can be funny, however Toei goes way to far that it becomes annoying. Toei doesn't know when to stop, Toei doesn't care if it contradict said character.

As DB progress, Goku matured and learned. Sure Goku doesn't know certain things like marriage, but Goku was never taught what marriage was.

In DBS anime Goku doesn't know the things he learned in the past.

As for Goku not knowing how to play baseball or kissing in the mouth, there is no evidence he learned about those things.



The problem isn't the fans, the problem is Toei who doesn't care about quality writing.
You may think it's annoying, but the profits say otherwise. Folks gotta understand that unlike most anime, your internet bubble is legitimately insignificant. There a far more people with widely different perspectives than what you see on the internet. Most fans aren't even thinking about this, that hard.

The amount of people who enjoy Goku's comical dumbness far outweighs those that don't. It's just the reality. Goku is Homer Jay Simpson if he liked fighting instead of donuts.

Dragon Ball is EXTREMELY subversive in that way. Almost everyone around him is a far more serious character than him. He's like Bugs Bunny placed in Charlie Brown. Except Goku's passion actually gets him in serious trouble. He's Sun Wukong more than people actually realize.

No one's dumber than Goku, no cares less than Goku, but no one's more correct than Goku in the end. With the whole introduction of the Ultras it's clear that they haven't abandoned Journey to the West. Goku's impossible dumbness is a gag that illustrates he's above it all. Goku always goes back to the guy he was right before every saga starts. It's not a coincidence.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:38 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:56 pm You may think it's annoying, but the profits say otherwise. Folks gotta understand that unlike most anime, your internet bubble is legitimately insignificant. There a far more people with widely different perspectives than what you see on the internet. Most fans aren't even thinking about this, that hard.

The amount of people who enjoy Goku's comical dumbness far outweighs those that don't. It's just the reality. Goku is Homer Jay Simpson if he liked fighting instead of donuts.

Dragon Ball is EXTREMELY subversive in that way. Almost everyone around him is a far more serious character than him. He's like Bugs Bunny placed in Charlie Brown. Except Goku's passion actually gets him in serious trouble. He's Sun Wukong more than people actually realize.

No one's dumber than Goku, no cares less than Goku, but no one's more correct than Goku in the end. With the whole introduction of the Ultras it's clear that they haven't abandoned Journey to the West. Goku's impossible dumbness is a gag that illustrates he's above it all. Goku always goes back to the guy he was right before every saga starts. It's not a coincidence.
How many people actively praise Goku's dumber characterisation, though? Is this really something that fans around the world hanker for out of their Dragon Ball media, or is it just a peripheral element that people grin and bear through to get to the more appealing aspects of Goku's character (e.g. friendly personality, amazing powers, love of strong opponents), amongst all of the other things that make Dragon Ball an internationally beloved IP? While I think the latter is more likely based on interactions I've had with fans both online and in real life, it's impossible to say with any certainty because you're making an extremely broad, generalised assumption here based purely on box office figures.

I'm not here to deny that Goku's social cluelessness is a big part of his character, but it was a strange move to suddenly start arguing ad populum here. Of course users on a niche fan forum are going to overthink and take umbrage with trivial things that general audiences don't spare a single stray thought towards, but it doesn't make their opinions any less valid. On an entirely subjective level, I just don't find many of the "dumb Goku" jokes very funny, particularly when they're used to undermine his overall characterisation as we understand it.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Alkiser » Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:44 am

super michael wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:34 am
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:03 pm I think it's because Dragon Ball is FAR MORE of a comedy than what people who only have watched Z realize.

Super went back to its roots and honestly... I love it.

Goku is impossibly dumb AND a fighting genius, but it's supposed to be goofy that way. The anime AND manga LITERALLY does not take itself as seriously as other Shonen. Dragon Ball is a lot closer to something like Family Guy than it is to Naruto, if you watch/read it closely.

Dragon Ball Super, just like the OG, is hyper-goofy until asses need to get kicked and even then it finds a way to ram a few jokes in. I seriously don't know how people take the franchise this seriously when you realize what "Ultra Instinct & Ego" translate to in Japanese. Like we seriously just had an entire arc with a dude named Granola and Toyo just confirmed Freeza's forms are based off of Credit Cards. Like seriously 🤣

Goku's dumb cuz it's funny. My mind was literally blown at how mad internet people were getting when Goku didn't know what a kiss was. He's so stupid it's impossible, Vegeta's reaction in english was priceless. Everyone on the block laughed, but when you got on the internet, all you saw were tantrums. Gotta admit tho, that was funny, too.😂
Doing dumb thing can be funny, however Toei goes way to far that it becomes annoying. Toei doesn't know when to stop, Toei doesn't care if it contradict said character.

As DB progress, Goku matured and learned. Sure Goku doesn't know certain things like marriage, but Goku was never taught what marriage was.

In DBS anime Goku doesn't know the things he learned in the past.

As for Goku not knowing how to play baseball or kissing in the mouth, there is no evidence he learned about those things.



The problem isn't the fans, the problem is Toei who doesn't care about quality writing.
,,Toei doesn't care if it conflicts with the character in question."

Wait a minute moment, why are you blaming Toei for this, when since the author of the original manga Akira Toriyama directly said that he wrote the dialogues for this movie.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Peril » Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:26 am

Comedy doesn't work when the comedy is just retcons and contradictions.

Does this situation count as a "Tori forgot" or "Tori don't care"?

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by Alkiser » Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:33 am

Peril wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:26 am Comedy doesn't work when the comedy is just retcons and contradictions.

Does this situation count as a "Tori forgot" or "Tori don't care"?
Definitely don't care

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by TheMikado » Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:39 pm

Peril wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:26 am Comedy doesn't work when the comedy is just retcons and contradictions.

Does this situation count as a "Tori forgot" or "Tori don't care"?
It’s both, I’m so glad people are finally coming around to Toriyama being fallible as a writer. That’s not to say he hasn’t done great work, but just because his name is slapped on something or even directly involved doesn’t make everything he produced good by default.

The willingness to blame Toei all the time is completely unfair. Especially when they gave us great character concepts like Broly, Cooler, and SSJ4.

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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:27 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:38 pm
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:56 pm You may think it's annoying, but the profits say otherwise. Folks gotta understand that unlike most anime, your internet bubble is legitimately insignificant. There a far more people with widely different perspectives than what you see on the internet. Most fans aren't even thinking about this, that hard.

The amount of people who enjoy Goku's comical dumbness far outweighs those that don't. It's just the reality. Goku is Homer Jay Simpson if he liked fighting instead of donuts.

Dragon Ball is EXTREMELY subversive in that way. Almost everyone around him is a far more serious character than him. He's like Bugs Bunny placed in Charlie Brown. Except Goku's passion actually gets him in serious trouble. He's Sun Wukong more than people actually realize.

No one's dumber than Goku, no cares less than Goku, but no one's more correct than Goku in the end. With the whole introduction of the Ultras it's clear that they haven't abandoned Journey to the West. Goku's impossible dumbness is a gag that illustrates he's above it all. Goku always goes back to the guy he was right before every saga starts. It's not a coincidence.
How many people actively praise Goku's dumber characterisation, though? Is this really something that fans around the world hanker for out of their Dragon Ball media, or is it just a peripheral element that people grin and bear through to get to the more appealing aspects of Goku's character (e.g. friendly personality, amazing powers, love of strong opponents), amongst all of the other things that make Dragon Ball an internationally beloved IP? While I think the latter is more likely based on interactions I've had with fans both online and in real life, it's impossible to say with any certainty because you're making an extremely broad, generalised assumption here based purely on box office figures.

I'm not here to deny that Goku's social cluelessness is a big part of his character, but it was a strange move to suddenly start arguing ad populum here. Of course users on a niche fan forum are going to overthink and take umbrage with trivial things that general audiences don't spare a single stray thought towards, but it doesn't make their opinions any less valid. On an entirely subjective level, I just don't find many of the "dumb Goku" jokes very funny, particularly when they're used to undermine his overall characterisation as we understand it.
Goku is still arguably Dragon Ball's most popular character, to this day. Likely the most popular character in all of anime and manga. The franchise has reached new heights whilst relying heavily on him. Also something people on this very minute section of the internet constantly complain about. Despite it being cash-money... Largely because of Goku...

These facts clearly outweigh whatever a section of the fandom thinks on the internet. People grin and bare his comical idiocy to continue to prop him up as arguably the greatest anime character of all time, even after several decades?

That sounds like a reach. Most people enjoy the fact that Goku is comically stupid. The creators wouldn't keep doing it if that wasn't the case. It's a joke. That's a far easier assumption.

Idk if people are leaving Dragon Ball and watching/reading other anime/manga and coming back, forgetting what Dragon Ball is/was or what.

It's not One Piece or Bleach. Dragon Ball's really silly. Goku and Arale are neck & neck.

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LoganForkHands73
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Re: Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:30 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:27 am Goku is still arguably Dragon Ball's most popular character, to this day. Likely the most popular character in all of anime and manga. The franchise has reached new heights whilst relying heavily on him. Also something people on this very minute section of the internet constantly complain about. Despite it being cash-money... Largely because of Goku...

These facts clearly outweigh whatever a section of the fandom thinks on the internet.
All I can say is... so? Hiveminds on here, Twitter, Reddit, etc. have different opinions to the majority of the public. This isn't news to anyone, nor is it really relevant. This thread (presumably) isn't about Goku's stupid writing being a serious detriment to the franchise's profits, it's just seen as an annoying quirk by the OP and other likeminded people.
People grin and bare his comical idiocy to continue to prop him up as arguably the greatest anime character of all time, even after several decades?

That sounds like a reach. Most people enjoy the fact that Goku is comically stupid. The creators wouldn't keep doing it if that wasn't the case. It's a joke. That's a far easier assumption.
Again, I see no real evidence that mainstream audiences have a particular attachment to Goku's idiocy, which is mainly used for cheap gags that are completely disposable in the grand scheme of the stories being told. It's like the Wilhelm stock scream effect being used in summer blockbusters, it's a minor running gag among sound designers that most people don't even register while watching and very few would particularly care if they never heard it again.

In short, I believe people keep tuning for better reasons than to hear Goku hyuck-hyuck like Goofy and admit that he doesn't know how to tie his shoelaces or whatever. If that's the main thing you're here for, more power to you.
Idk if people are leaving Dragon Ball and watching/reading other anime/manga and coming back, forgetting what Dragon Ball is/was or what.
Bluntly, yes. Plenty of casual viewers have a skewed view of Dragon Ball for so many reasons: inaccurate regional dubs perverting the original scripts, the tonal differences between the manga and anime, viewing it through nostalgia glasses, lumping Dragon Ball in with other popular shonen franchises, etc etc etc. This is precisely why relying on what (you authoritatively assume) the masses think is a weak position to take.
It's not One Piece or Bleach. Dragon Ball's really silly. Goku and Arale are neck & neck.
It's not One Piece or Bleach, but it's not Dr. Slump either. To say so is just as misleading.

Toriyama has gone on record saying that he disliked how the anime staff initially presented Dragon Ball as Dr. Slump 2.0 because he always viewed the former as a very different beast, even back when the manga still had much of the same irreverent humour.

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