Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by ChibiGoku » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:15 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:48 am There definitely has been a problem in modern media of overcorrecting the portayal of men and writing them as incompetent manbabies who need a woman's guidance just to function properly...I've even noticed my own writing slipping into that and have had to revise it. It's jarring because most of the men I've known all of my life have been pretty solid, competent people? Definitely feels like they're either written by overcompensatory men or women with a surface level understanding of us.
I really am confused by this line of thinking. Most men I've met have had serious issues as the result of toxic society, including those around them, which includes family members. Many of us are broken and only put on a face or mask, pretending we're competant and put together. The reality is, many of us our broken, and if we show emotion or calls for help, we're shunned for it. There's this idea that we're "snow flakes" if we're finally speaking out about issues, or in your words, "incompetent manbabies". The fact men are shown seeking guidance with women is not a bad thing, and the reality is, men often seek guidance of their partners and friends, many who happen to be women.

If we didn't stigmatize men showing emotions and show more how men actually are both emotionally and need help/guidance, then we'd have less issues dealing with toxic masculinity. But instead, society continues to push forward with this. The idea you're wanting to put a stop of portraying men with flaws and emotions, shows you want to keep the status quo. That, in itself, is toxic and falls in line with the rest of this thread.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:42 pm

The manner in which men are written being pinned on women doesn't exactly sit well with me when the vast majority of modern media is A) written and produced by men for men; B) typically reflective of society's own failure to actually raise men as self-sufficient as they expect of women...because they expect girls to grow up to be mens' housekeepers and childcarers. Then as a result you get men feeling inadaquet because they've been force fed off of shitty ideas about what they as 'men' (something typically arbitrarily assigned at birth) are supposed to be.

I personally find the men in Dragon Ball to be written in tired, boring ways, in large part because their personalities revolve entirely around fighting or some random crass gag Toriyama wants to write. Toriyama's strive to never make anything Too Serious inevitably leads to creating a toxic story that portrays gender roles in a very stilted manner. This, ultimately, isn't reflective of real life. As many asshole men as I am forced to interact with I also am able to choose to surround myself with plenty of men who are normal, functioning people (not weird bigots).

Personally, I think defining any one gender is a toxic idea and seeing that re-enforced through media is bad. Whenever I see the phrase "I'm a man" or "A man should..." in media I cringe because, like, what makes that inherently gendered? Gender is fake! They ideas we teach our young about what they should do specifically to be the gender we arbitrarily assign them at birth is fake! The idea that 'men' feel and should act a certain way is fake.

I've never particularly seen Gokuu as being very 'male', mostly because he's never talking about being a man or acting in 'manly' ways. Albeit, I still think he's written from the angle of a toxic male, but Gokuu could be stripped of the supposed masc-coding he is drawn with or even be referred to as a woman or non-binary and I wouldn't see anything to suggest otherwise. With Vegeta, because he is depicted as a man, depicted with the 'traits' 'men' are taught to embody (loud, arrogant, physically strong, self-aggrandizing) I think there's definitely room to question whether or not he's a depiction of toxic masculinity. Toriyama often writes him as failing because of his nonsense but he's also never just directly called out, which lets 'men' latch on to him as a positive self-insert figure when he is anything but. People often criticize a lack of subtlety in media but the older I've gotten the more I've noticed just how much subtlety just prolongs the cycle of media illiteratecy and poor nurturing under capitalism and White Supremacy.

Which is to say, we have those embarassing Vegeta shirts because y'all are so obsessed with not coming out and just saying Vegeta's a weird loser.
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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:39 pm

ChibiGoku wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:15 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:48 am There definitely has been a problem in modern media of overcorrecting the portayal of men and writing them as incompetent manbabies who need a woman's guidance just to function properly...I've even noticed my own writing slipping into that and have had to revise it. It's jarring because most of the men I've known all of my life have been pretty solid, competent people? Definitely feels like they're either written by overcompensatory men or women with a surface level understanding of us.
The idea you're wanting to put a stop of portraying men with flaws and emotions, shows you want to keep the status quo. That, in itself, is toxic and falls in line with the rest of this thread.
Burh what? You're putting words in my mouth something serious. Nowhere did I say anything about how men should be portrayed without flaws, underlying issues, and trauma. Considering I'm in therapy for my own issues of expressing my emotions and inability to maintain friendships, that's hilarious. (which isn't really anything to do with male socialization as much as an anxiety I've recognized in myself in some fashion since I was 4, but still ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. CObviously only speaking for myself here, but in my lifetime, most of the urging I've received to express myself and show more emotion have actually come from men, ironically...while women have been far more condescending and intrusive when broaching the subject with me and far more likely to get offended when I don't. Which goes back to my original point of how people understand each other. Men have a better idea of how to broach those subjects with other men when they're being natural about it while sometimes girls might fall in the trap of treating us like their personal psych project.)

What I said was, modern media portays men as so incompetent and childish that that's not realistic either. Perhaps even less than the uber men of the 70s and 80s. It seems like you just read my post entirely at the surface and projected onto it.
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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by DatHenson » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:41 pm

There's also the fact that Toei (and maybe Toriyama? Hard to say if he wrote the other filler, but manga already was iffy for Blue) toxic masculinity can be seen in queer rep
Sailor Uranus and Neptune? Healthy couple, differing personalities and fashion taste, one has a sick car
General Blue? Is based on a Nazi pedo, has girly eyelashes, hates germs and mice
The guy in end of Z filler? Hitting on Goten, is in Leather harness wear

This isn't exactly gone either, and even impacts parts of the LGBTQ. Most media for kids that have lgbtq couples generally learn on female lesbian or bi couples, rarely males. Despite stats on there being more FtM trans people than MtF, only MtF is massively raged on

Like it's a shame cuz lesbian women have less support than gay men, but rep wise it's reversed due to toxic masculinity meaning expected audiences either hate the concept of a man not being dom, or are biased to find lesbians "hot" cuz they're written by men typically. Which again, goes back to sexism of treating people as just sex objects, not people

Sorry for the rant, just had to spill it

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:06 pm

DatHenson wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:41 pm
This isn't exactly gone either, and even impacts parts of the LGBTQ. Most media for kids that have lgbtq couples generally learn on female lesbian or bi couples, rarely males. Despite stats on there being more FtM trans people than MtF, only MtF is massively raged on
Transfemme's, as far as media and that type of thing goes, probably do get more abject mockery because it can double up as misogyny, homophobia and transphobia, but I wouldn't exactly say transmasc's have it easier or don't have to deal with bullcrap even if it isn't as open as "Haha Lady Looks Like Man". There's a lot of stuff that treats any AFAB person exploring gender stuff as, "just a phase", or sometimes only doing it to be trendy, or just outright not taking them seriously at all. I've known lots of transmasc's people who, maybe due to hormonal stuff or body stuff, are very femme passing and they just do not get a hint of respect, and obviously medical transphobia kinda goes everywhere, but you add that on top of a lot of medical stuff just being very outwardly misogynistic to people with female reproduction systems. Both get targeted, both deal with a unnecessary amount of shit, some of it is different ways, I don't think you should only transfemmes get ragged on.
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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:17 pm

DatHenson wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:41 pm
The guy in end of Z filler? Hitting on Goten, is in Leather harness wear
That character was in the last two chapters of the manga.

Despite stats on there being more FtM trans people than MtF, only MtF is massively raged on

To the point transphobes will often make asses of them telling trans MEN they'll never be a woman. Bigotry makes you stupid, who knew?
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:48 pm

Speaking for myself, I very much don't see toxic masculinity in DB, except for Vegeta perhaps.

Master Roshi, though a shameless flirt and pervert, is always stymied and beaten by the girls he chases. That's a classic anime comedy trope: a lecher and pervert never gets to have his way. Whether it's funny or not depends on the person, but generally I've enjoyed Roshi's antics.

Goku, the strongest fighter, is a henpecked husband. The humor and the irony of this speaks for itself.

Trunks and Gohan have stable relationships with Videl and Mai, partners who respect, trust and support them.

We don't see much of Tien and Launch, nor of Krillin and 18.

Vegeta and Bulma... let's be honest, they're not an ideal couple. Bulma is a vain and capricious girl. And Vegeta is an arrogant former-royal who spent his life enslaved and was driven to be ruler of all simply so that he would never be ruled again, and he never really fully redeems himself. But he is still loved for the same reason he is found hyper-masculine, not necessarily by the same people.
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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by DatHenson » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:51 pm

Oh no doubt both Transmen and Women suffer heavily, I'm just noting how it's rooted to toxic masculinity

Back to Dragon Ball, I really didn't like Super's "attempt" on fixing Roshi prior to ToP

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:08 pm

I never really thought of Dragon Ball as being overly toxic in masculinity.

It's hardly as toxic in masculinity as any Stallone, Schwarzenegger or Chuck Norris flick.
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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by GokuHater » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:52 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:46 pm
GokuHater wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:55 am The only example of toxic men behaviour which are never properly addressed in the series is Roshi's behaviour towards women ;)
That's not "toxic masculinity": that's plain old Muten being a pervert.

He was never praised for it: everybody treats it as a character flaw, and he's regularly punished for it.
Well I don't agree ;)

Yup, that is Muten being a pervert but there is a difference in just being a pervert and being a pervert and actively talking about it left or right, demanding young girls to show their boobs and panties or to nearly raping someone.

The fact it's "just Roshi" and that it's presented in a light hearted manner, usually for fun, that in one culture in one time it was even expected for an anime old geezer to act this way, doesn't change the fact this isn't toxic :)

And no... He doesn't get punished by it. In DB terms when a character gets punished he gets kidney punched to death by evil overlord. Or gets Buu in his stomach to literally explode him.

Roshi may get a silly scene where he is comically whacked on a head or falls down a toilet but this is still only comedy and laughs. As opposed to the examples I wrote, this doesn't present any message.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:25 pm

Roshi’s sexual offenses are toxic traits (because it harms women, DUH) which is based on the idea that a woman ought to fulfill the desires of a man (masculine dominance). Obviously it’s a form of toxic masculinity, there’s no bullshitting about it.
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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Aim » Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:44 am

Okay, so if you want to look at the Dragon Ball community as a whole, there’s so much homophobia and overall toxic masculinity especially in regards to Dragon Ball fans. The amount of dbz pfp I’ve seen saying shitty things about gay or trans people is concerning. There’s also a very “hood” element to the Dragon Ball community which I think helps to cultivate further misogynistic fools and what not.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Aim » Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:50 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:59 pm Oh this is gonna be an interesting thread.

Anyways, I think the series has it's many many many flaws to varying degrees but I never really thought of toxic masculinity as one of them.

I do think you have a valid point that portions of the fandom have latched on to aspects of the franchise because of their own engrained toxic masculinity and I 100 percent agree with you that certain common fan criticisms like dismissing Japanese Goku for being voiced by a woman or complaining that Clinkenbeard's Gohan sounds too much like a girl, nevermind that young boys at Gohan's age where Clinkenbeard voiced him typically do have girly voices, yeah I definitely do think that's all a byproduct of toxic masculinity.

But I don't the franchise itself embraces these ideals. Vegeta is shown growing as a person BECAUSE he gives a shit about his wife and kids.
The franchise doesn’t at all embrace those toxic masculinity traits except maybe the English dub somewhat. I honestly think most DBZ fans would call irl dragon ball characters gay or whatever they call anyone who isn’t Andrew Tate.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:53 am

Aim wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:44 am There’s also a very “hood” element to the Dragon Ball community which I think helps to cultivate further misogynistic fools and what not.
Interesting choice of words thereImage

I wonder what you mean Image
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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Aim » Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:05 am

Pride9000!!! wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:48 pm Bro it's a show where people punch each other and shoot energy attacks. it's not that deep or political, I don't know why people keep bringing these topics up.
Dragon Ball has some under wraps political messages within the show, politics becomes far more involved though because it attracts some seriously fucked up people.
Pride9000!!! wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:48 pm The thing is the large majority of the people just want a good story, a fun time, good battle and just to be entertained IT'S Dragon Ball come on. I personally believe because of things like these many things are dying today like the comic book industry. Where they keep pushing these narratives onto us.


I’d like you to look back over what you said, specifically ‘they keep pushing these narratives onto us.’ - do you think the hegemonic media landscape you’re used to is the default? Why exactly? And if so, is it not just enforcing a specific kind of narrative then itself anyway? The difference is you’ve grown up with it and thus are used to it. Not to mention I assume you fit into at least one of the hegemonies.
Pride9000!!! wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:48 pm But since we're talking about DB let's talk about it. Dragon Ball is an inherently masculine show as the characters are constantly trying to improve, trying to be better than one another I mean hell it's infimus for people screaming. Ask anyone ever what got you hooked on the series " it was the fights, the characters, badass moments..." We get to see the character development of for example Gohan when he goes from a weak child that is scared and helpless to complete badass whether it be in the cell Saga or when he returns to fight boo, now of course we all know that he chose to be a scholar (but what do the fans really want to see, what do we hear constantly).
I find it pretty weird how self improvement makes something masculine. It’s so between the lines you’d be hard pressed to find a word for it other than it’s incredibly popular with a demographic due to a complex mixture of culture and the times.

Showing my late grandmother the series really ignited her liking towards the show, starting with Dragon Ball, especially young Son Goku. I don’t think there’s anything inherently masculine about Dragon Ball, but maybe that’s because I don’t think masculinity is a thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Aim » Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:11 am

ChibiGoku wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:15 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:48 am There definitely has been a problem in modern media of overcorrecting the portayal of men and writing them as incompetent manbabies who need a woman's guidance just to function properly...I've even noticed my own writing slipping into that and have had to revise it. It's jarring because most of the men I've known all of my life have been pretty solid, competent people? Definitely feels like they're either written by overcompensatory men or women with a surface level understanding of us.
I really am confused by this line of thinking. Most men I've met have had serious issues as the result of toxic society, including those around them, which includes family members. Many of us are broken and only put on a face or mask, pretending we're competant and put together. The reality is, many of us our broken, and if we show emotion or calls for help, we're shunned for it. There's this idea that we're "snow flakes" if we're finally speaking out about issues, or in your words, "incompetent manbabies". The fact men are shown seeking guidance with women is not a bad thing, and the reality is, men often seek guidance of their partners and friends, many who happen to be women.

If we didn't stigmatize men showing emotions and show more how men actually are both emotionally and need help/guidance, then we'd have less issues dealing with toxic masculinity. But instead, society continues to push forward with this. The idea you're wanting to put a stop of portraying men with flaws and emotions, shows you want to keep the status quo. That, in itself, is toxic and falls in line with the rest of this thread.
You’re arguing with hot air.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Aim » Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:16 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:53 am
Aim wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:44 am There’s also a very “hood” element to the Dragon Ball community which I think helps to cultivate further misogynistic fools and what not.
Interesting choice of words thereImage

I wonder what you mean Image
I knew I’d get a reaction from you on that one. But yeah, hood as in very much oriented towards people of colour, particularly those in lower socioeconomic situations, thus they’re more likely to be reactionary. Geekdom101 is a pretty good example of this, last I checked his audience really do have that lexicon associated with more hood culture if anything, you can see this on Instagram the most actually. Just the truth really, hood culture is misogynistic and riddled with toxic masculinity, just like literally every aspect of white culture is as well in the lower socioeconomic regions.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Yuji » Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:03 am

Aim wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:16 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:53 am
Aim wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:44 am There’s also a very “hood” element to the Dragon Ball community which I think helps to cultivate further misogynistic fools and what not.
Interesting choice of words thereImage

I wonder what you mean Image
I knew I’d get a reaction from you on that one. But yeah, hood as in very much oriented towards people of colour, particularly those in lower socioeconomic situations, thus they’re more likely to be reactionary. Geekdom101 is a pretty good example of this, last I checked his audience really do have that lexicon associated with more hood culture if anything, you can see this on Instagram the most actually. Just the truth really, hood culture is misogynistic and riddled with toxic masculinity, just like literally every aspect of white culture is as well in the lower socioeconomic regions.
If you think both poor white and "hood" cultures are riddled with misogyny and toxic masculinity, why single out "hood" culture and people of colour? Don't know, but this isn't the first sketchy comment you've had on race on this board. You should maybe check your own biases.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Aim » Sun Jan 29, 2023 8:25 am

Yuji wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:03 am
Aim wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:16 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:53 am
Interesting choice of words thereImage

I wonder what you mean Image
I knew I’d get a reaction from you on that one. But yeah, hood as in very much oriented towards people of colour, particularly those in lower socioeconomic situations, thus they’re more likely to be reactionary. Geekdom101 is a pretty good example of this, last I checked his audience really do have that lexicon associated with more hood culture if anything, you can see this on Instagram the most actually. Just the truth really, hood culture is misogynistic and riddled with toxic masculinity, just like literally every aspect of white culture is as well in the lower socioeconomic regions.
If you think both poor white and "hood" cultures are riddled with misogyny and toxic masculinity, why single out "hood" culture and people of colour? Don't know, but this isn't the first sketchy comment you've had on race on this board. You should maybe check your own biases.
Because if you actually read what I saying, the culture Dragon Ball has attracted is more hood orientated. Nice try though, try not to burst a vein making yourself mad over nothing.

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Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Shaddy » Sun Jan 29, 2023 8:39 am

I feel like I've seen you be weird about race on here before, actually. Even if I'm misremembering, it's definitely not "nothing" when people criticize you over comments you made on purpose knowing that they were going to get a reaction out of people. It's your fault if you don't examine why that might be, especially when I guarantee you have no proof about "attracting hood culture", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean.

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