Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

[Drepanosaurus]

Does anyone feel like the Dragon Ball series has links with Toxic Masculinity? The term "toxic masculinity" refers to culturally-based conventional masculine norms that have the potential to hurt men, women, and society as a whole. It is not meant to vilify men or male characteristics, but rather to highlight the negative consequences of adhering to certain traditional masculine ideals. I feel like Dragon Ball and other anime titles do have their connections with Toxic Masculinity. Some of these traits of Toxic Masculinity does include Unconditional physical toughness, physical aggression, fear of emotions, hyper independence, etc. A character like Vegeta does fit that bill considering that he was a bad guy for many years up until the Majin Buu saga. You can see this in Vegeta merchandise like this shirt for example - https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e6/68/38 ... 723413.jpg

Vegeta lack of focus on himself because he is obsessed beating Goku, and particularly when it comes to how he treats people who don't impress him, are very toxic masculine traits. When has Vegeta considered anyone to be his true friend and would never let anyone close to his heart? The answer was no one, and he still does not view Goku as a best pal like Goku does with his other friends. Other examples of Toxic Masculinity are seen with the Funimation dub. The dub makes Goku feel more badass and heroic then what he actually is. Ever wonder why so many people like Funimation's Goku over the Japanese voice? Many people (mostly men) call it as "Weak", "Stupid" and "Gay". The dub and even maybe the series in general has enduring appeal as an emblem of masculinity seeing that it's always a cis man that is selling you Dragon Ball products and market to wards.

These traits were very common in a lot of older anime too like City Hunter, Golgo 13, Wicked City, Metal Skin Panic MADOX-01, Ninja Scroll, Beserk, etc. It has gotten a little bit better seeing that we have less macho badass anime heroes seeing that Deku from MHA fits better with masculinity than someone from a Kawajira movie would. However, it's still a common issue in today's anime and the world in general.

[MasenkoHA]

Oh this is gonna be an interesting thread.

Anyways, I think the series has it's many many many flaws to varying degrees but I never really thought of toxic masculinity as one of them.

I do think you have a valid point that portions of the fandom have latched on to aspects of the franchise because of their own engrained toxic masculinity and I 100 percent agree with you that certain common fan criticisms like dismissing Japanese Goku for being voiced by a woman or complaining that Clinkenbeard's Gohan sounds too much like a girl, nevermind that young boys at Gohan's age where Clinkenbeard voiced him typically do have girly voices, yeah I definitely do think that's all a byproduct of toxic masculinity.

But I don't the franchise itself embraces these ideals. Vegeta is shown growing as a person BECAUSE he gives a shit about his wife and kids.

[Koitsukai]

I agree with MasenkoHA. Vegeta has all those qualities but the show never celebrates or embraces them, the fandom does, that shirt is eloquent enough being fan-made and not an actual quote. His journey is actually moving away from that.

Vegeta is always treated as being wrong in his ways, and the story always makes sure he gets the bills. His attitude and ideals never work.

[Hellspawn28]

I do agree that Toxic Masculinity does play a role in why Western fans are so critical towards the Japanese voice of Goku. Sean Schemmel's Goku voice adds a lot more masculinity to the character by making him more supermanish. No one really cared about Goku being voiced by a woman until later on in the 2000s when the Toonami kiddies got older and started to use the Internet. Having a high pitch voice gives the idea that Goku is weak and not overly macho like his Funimation dub counterpart.

[Gaffer Tape]

I mostly echo what others have already said. If there is any toxic masculinity within the text itself, it's how it often frames its women as either sex objects or baby makers. I think most of the toxic masculinity associated with DB is the fact that it draws in a lot of toxic fans. I guess it's not difficult to see why. It's a series that puts ideas like strength and fighting and solving problems through being the brawniest on a pedestal. And I'd wager those ideas appeal quite heavily to people who have certain conceptions about "what a man is supposed to be." And, of course, Dragon Ball heavily features the poster child for toxic masculinity, Vegeta. I think he falls into that "Rick Sanchez" category of a character who is supposed to be (at least) morally gray and in some ways an awful human being. However, he's presented in a way that makes him so cool that people latch onto him and unironically praise his characteristics.

[Soppa Saia People]

I mean to be honest, as someone who's unquestionably a fan of Nozawa and gets really annoyed with dub fans when it comes to her, I don't really think people disliking her voice is a example of toxic masculinity. There's a lot of misogyny charged insults when it comes to her, ditto with age, even seen people say TrannyKu*, but I think that's just an extension of toxicity and sexism that has existence in a lot of shounen anime fanbases, but I also do just understand why someone wouldn't like that Goku, who is a fairly masculine character and is a adult man who tend not to be voiced by women, in a series that is extremely black and white with gender, doesn't really sound like a man.

Honestly I would say the way people they talk about the Faulconer score is a better example of that. Not that the Kikuchi score is feminine in anyway, but, you hear a lot of people talk about how "Badass", "Hard", and "Tough" it is, and how something like Dragon Ball needs to have music that you can workout to. I wouldn't say it's gross, but it is kinda weird lol.

*(Holy shit, more people said this about Linda Young as Freeza on this board then Nozawa as Goku, good god.)

[Gaffer Tape]

I mean to be honest, as someone who's unquestionably a fan of Nozawa and gets really annoyed with dub fans when it comes to her, I don't really think people disliking her voice is a example of toxic masculinity. There's a lot of misogyny charged insults when it comes to her, ditto with age, even seen people say TrannyKu*, but I think that's just an extension of toxicity and sexism that has existence in a lot of shounen anime fanbases, but I also do just understand why someone wouldn't like that Goku, who is a fairly masculine character and is a adult man who tend not to be voiced by women, in a series that is extremely black and white with gender, doesn't really sound like a man.

Honestly I would say the way people they talk about the Faulconer score is a better example of that. Not that the Kikuchi score is feminine in anyway, but, you hear a lot of people talk about how "Badass", "Hard", and "Tough" it is, and how something like Dragon Ball needs to have music that you can workout to. I wouldn't say it's gross, but it is kinda weird lol.

*(Holy shit, more people said this about Linda Young as Freeza on this board then Nozawa as Goku, good god.)

I think, as with a lot of things, there's a degree of nuance to this. You can love Vegeta as a character and not be toxic. You can dislike Nozawa's portrayal of Goku and not be toxic. It all depends on what motivates a person to have those opinions and how they express them. It's kinda like, say, the reaction to the 2016 Ghostbusters film. There were people who hated it simply because they didn't think it was funny. There were people who hated it because they chaffed at the idea of women doing those roles. And when they're really forthcoming about those reasons, they make it very easy for us to identify which is which. But we all have internalized biases, some of which we might not even be aware of. So you could, perhaps, find someone who criticized the film because they insist it isn't funny but might be much harsher on it than they would have been on a non-female-focused film.

And, yeah, I definitely have seen what you mean in regards to the dub Freeza voice. I'm certainly not saying it's hypocritical to like Nozawa and not like Young or vice versa. But it has always struck me as uncomfortable that some people will use the same hateful and sexist rhetoric to criticize Young's that would absolutely infuriate them if they heard it said about Nozawa. It's that tribalist mindset, that it's okay if my "team" is the one doing it because my team is right.

[MasenkoHA]

.

And, yeah, I definitely have seen what you mean in regards to the dub Freeza voice. I'm certainly not saying it's hypocritical to like Nozawa and not like Young or vice versa. But it has always struck me as uncomfortable that some people will use the same hateful and sexist rhetoric to criticize Young's that would absolutely infuriate them if they heard it said about Nozawa. It's that tribalist mindset, that it's okay if my "team" is the one doing it because my team is right.

I'm not condoning fans reaction or giving them a pass but it's hard to ignore that Funimation was deliberately playing into the creepy effeminate homosexual villain archetype with Frieza. Not just with the casting of Pauline Newstone and Linda Young and their performances but lines like "whatever turns you on" and "this way I won't break a nail"

I don't think they had any agenda or anything but Funimation seemed to be banking on their general audience hating Frieza because of these stereotypes. And given how many people I know who grew up with DBZ on Toonami and hated Frieza well...

[Soppa Saia People]

I think, as with a lot of things, there's a degree of nuance to this. You can love Vegeta as a character and not be toxic. You can dislike Nozawa's portrayal of Goku and not be toxic. It all depends on what motivates a person to have those opinions and how they express them. It's kinda like, say, the reaction to the 2016 Ghostbusters film. There were people who hated it simply because they didn't think it was funny. There were people who hated it because they chaffed at the idea of women doing those roles. And when they're really forthcoming about those reasons, they make it very easy for us to identify which is which. But we all have internalized biases, some of which we might not even be aware of. So you could, perhaps, find someone who criticized the film because they insist it isn't funny but might be much harsher on it than they would have been on a non-female-focused film.

And, yeah, I definitely have seen what you mean in regards to the dub Freeza voice. I'm certainly not saying it's hypocritical to like Nozawa and not like Young or vice versa. But it has always struck me as uncomfortable that some people will use the same hateful and sexist rhetoric to criticize Young's that would absolutely infuriate them if they heard it said about Nozawa. It's that tribalist mindset, that it's okay if my "team" is the one doing it because my team is right.

Yeah, of course a lot of subconscious bias plays a part in it, I don't wanna get too radical with how I talk about masculinity because I have a very weird relationship with it and men in general, but I would say an average, most men (and especially young boys) don't take kindly to a character they've propped up as a example of masculinity being voiced by a woman. But, in comparison to stuff like, how a lot of people talk about stuff that's meant for women (especially teenage girls), or for an anime example, how some people talk about Megumi Ogata's/Casey Mongillo's performances as Shinji from Eva, I wouldn't say gender plays much of a role in it to the point where I'd side eye'd someone for it, I guess. I would say the way DB fans tend to talk about female characters tends to be the most telling, especially someone like ChiChi or the Super female Saiyans.

And yeah, to be honest, there is a lot to dislike about Linda Young's Freeza but I will cut it some slack, because it is really gross how people talked about her. Not even just sub fans either, dub fans too.

(And yeah as a Shoujosei fan, I am all too used to male anime fans disregarding basically every series I like because it's "Chick Shit". Ugh lol)

[PurestEvil]

I think that Vegeta's obsession over Goku is a succinct example of toxic masculinity. Sure, there is a classist element to it (low-class vs high-class Saiyans), but it is still based on the feeling that he should be stronger and thus be the better "man" than Goku. Considering how this obsession had lead to the physical harm of others--namely when Vegeta is under Babbidi's spell--it illustrates how this sort of toxic arrogance makes a man callous to the negative consequences of his aggressions. Additionally, when Vegeta remembers and starts to care about his family, he realizes that there are more important things in life than mere machismo; his sacrificial attack on Majin Buu represents him destroying his old, bitter self in an act of atonement.

I don't think you have to be a misogynist to be a fan of Vegeta's villainous character, though. There is something badass about the pretentious bravado Vegeta expounds when he's killing shit in Namek for example. Perhaps it's the charisma that attracts viewers, or even the idea of a strong, independent "lone wolf" character.

...or complaining that Clinkenbeard's Gohan sounds too much like a girl, nevermind that young boys at Gohan's age where Clinkenbeard voiced him typically do have girly voices...

I can never get behind anyone who complains about women voicing toddlers. The sexual dimorphism doesn't kick in at that stage, so all kids regardless of sex have high-pitched voices.

[GokuHater]

That's an interesting topic.

I don't think it does though.
Sure, there are examples of toxic masculinity in characters - especially early Piccolo and Vegeta - but the show (and the manga) clearly shows that this in NOT the right way to go.
Vegeta starts being 'badass' and 'masculine' towards Number 18? He gets his arm broken.
Vegeta thinks he's the most strongest and cooool kid on the block as Super Vegeta? Think he deserves stronger opponet? He gets the living shit beat out of him from Cell.
On the contrary, when in Cell saga Vegeta is showed to be heroic, altruistic and helping Gohan by distracting Perfect Cell, the scene clearly shows him as a hero.

Same with Piccolo, from the start of Z we see him as a cool and badass loner but no time passes at all when we see him gently touching sleeping Gohan, which is as furthest from toxic macunility as you could go.

Gohan himself starts as a cute and sweet but also weak and a bit cowardly child, he definetly has many feminine traits but we can't help but love him.
Even after SSJ2 transformation, when Gohan basically becomes a psycho for a while, the show clearly explained that such emotions were created by an enormous pain. And after all is said and done, Gohan does become a scholar and settles down (especially in Z, Super seems to change it's mind ) - a character path, that some of the fans hate, while I enjoy. It would be very easy to make Gohan a fighter alongside Goku, Vegeta, he has the power but Toriyama decided not to do that. And Gohan is presented as a positive character there, while having elegant clothes, glasses, pencil up his ear - this is as far from toxic masculinity as you could go

Examples like this could be multiplied.
We see Trunks as a masculine, badass hero, who single-handedly defeats Frieza and Cold but later we learn he is basically a broken teenager who can't do shit to the Androids and has to retreat to stand a chance to even live.

Many fans do see the characters as cool and badass even when in real life they would be considered psychopaths - Majin Vegeta, Vegeta Cell saga, Frieza - but this is more to do how they are presented and how the story flows - also Toriyama does love his 'cool factor', not necesarily meaning kids would like their traits.
And if so, I don't think the show is to blame, it does a good job showing what's right, what's wrong.


The only example of toxic men behaviour which are never properly addressed in the series is Roshi's behaviour towards women
And even that is more an effect of what was seen 'funny' at the time.

[eledoremassis02]

I agree with a lot of people here, I think it exists but I dont really it's as deeply imbeded as people would think. I think the closest we got to toxic masculinity was the initial inhouse FUNimation dub.

In terms of 80s/90s Japan/Manga, I'd still say its not really there. Vegeta is flawed character and he is not celebrated for being flawed. Infact, he's the one thats made the biggest strides. Bulma is just as equal as Vegeta (compared to Goku and Chich). The closet would be roshi and a lot of the female sexulization was pretty much dropped by Z (atlease in the Managa, Toei didnt help things).

When it comes to Toriyama, (cant find a source so if anyone can, thank you!) he fought to keep Nozawa on as Goku after Toei felt she wasnt useful anymore and wanted a more "mature" sounding voice. At the veryleast, Nozawa is Goku as far as Toriyama is concerned

Interviewer: How would you describe Nozawa-san‘s style of Son Goku?

1Toriyama: Really, it would be presumptuous of me to say something like that!

Toriyama: I’ve said this many times, but in drawing [Dragon Ball] for such a long time, only your voice would come to mind, Nozawa-san, so as far as I’m concerned, it’s something that’s perfectly normal, I guess you could say.1

Interviewer: During the serialization.

Toriyama: Yes. I’d remember, “Ah, surely Goku has this kind of voice.” And it really is true for your voice, Nozawa-san. Would you mind doing a bit in Goku’s voice?

Nozawa: Like, “Kamehameha”?

Toriyama, Interviewer: Ohhh~.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... cial-talk/

I'd guess I've seen a lot more males like Dragon Ball over say, the male/female ratio of fans who like Sailor Moon (atleast in the U.S.). But, I think there is more issues of different toxicisty in the fanbase, morso than Toxic Masculinity.

[Pride9000!!!]

Oh this is gonna be an interesting thread.

Me after reading the name of this thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

Bro it's a show where people punch each other and shoot energy attacks. it's not that deep or political, I don't know why people keep bringing these topics up.

The thing is the large majority of the people just want a good story, a fun time, good battle and just to be entertained IT'S Dragon Ball come on. I personally believe because of things like these many things are dying today like the comic book industry. Where they keep pushing these narratives onto us. Wen on the other hand Manga is flourishing because they're just concerned with giving us good stories and a fun time. The same thing can be said with "Modern Hollywood movies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUWe11I_7Oo

Just ask yourself this question "Would the show really be better with these things implemented" probably not

But since we're talking about DB let's talk about it. Dragon Ball is an inherently masculine show as the characters are constantly trying to improve, trying to be better than one another I mean hell it's infimus for people screaming. Ask anyone ever what got you hooked on the series " it was the fights, the characters, badass moments..." We get to see the character development of for example Gohan when he goes from a weak child that is scared and helpless to complete badass whether it be in the cell Saga or when he returns to fight boo, now of course we all know that he chose to be a scholar (but what do the fans really want to see, what do we hear constantly).

Vegeta in the beginning is a very bad person (HE'S a Villain) we see this in the show, and it doesn't show it as a good thing but competing and improving himself is not a bad thing come on guys (There is a reason why people love him, because we want to become a person like that confident, strong, ambitious,...) And plus if Vegeta wasn't the character that he was we wouldn't get moments like him training https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQbFGr2Igw the guy would rather die than fail

As for the show being Masculine its predominantly geared towards young boys (ask any younger boy would they like to be like a characters from the show and what do you think they're answer is going to be) As for the show being sexist or misogynist towards woman it's an anime guys this is not unique to Dragon Ball come on.

[ATA]

I think the fan base has more toxic masculinity than the show itself. The show lacks in the female characters department but at least Bulma and U6 Saiyans were useful. They can still do better with female characters however. The show embraces showing emotions instead of holding them in. I don't recall a scene where they say "it's a man's job" or anything of that nature I might be wrong. As someone mentioned technically Vegeta has toxic masculinity (or rather toxic Saiyan traits) but Vegeta gets humbled enough and indirectly told he's wrong a lot of times.

[ankokudaishogun]

The only example of toxic men behaviour which are never properly addressed in the series is Roshi's behaviour towards women

That's not "toxic masculinity": that's plain old Muten being a pervert.

He was never praised for it: everybody treats it as a character flaw, and he's regularly punished for it.

[Gaffer Tape]

That's not "toxic masculinity": that's plain old Muten being a pervert.

He was never praised for it: everybody treats it as a character flaw, and he's regularly punished for it.

I'd say expecting women to be willing sexual objects for a person would be classified as "toxic masculinity."

As for him being punished, well... yes and no. The story definitely makes jokes at his expense, usually leaving him comedically harmed or in a briefly unpleasant situation. But he also always manages to get what he wants prior to that. Indeed, the story never treats him as being in the right. But it also more or less frames it as "boys will be boys" or, more specifically, "dirty old men will be dirty old men." It's just taken for granted that if you hang around this guy, you should expect to be groped, and if you are, you shouldn't treat it as anything more than a minor inconvenience. So does everybody treat it as a character flaw? Ehhhh. Very few other characters actively support it, but no one, aside from his victims, ever has anything significant to say against it either. And even to the victims, it's not enough to stop them from associating with him or even living with him.

[TheGreatness25]

Of course there are instances of "toxic masculinity" in the series, much like lots of things from the 80s-90s. I mean, it's a series aimed at young boys. You know what was marketed to young boys? Fighting, action, explosions, and girls. And not for nothing, it's hard to disprove that those things worked.

Is the series suffering from those things? Nah. Muten Roshi's antics, for example, were just a background piece. The title character--Goku--and his friends (of course, other than Roshi) weren't like that.

I didn't like a lot of Roshi's moments. Even as a kid, I didn't really like his character at all. I kind of forced myself to believe that I shouldn't dislike him because of how important he is to Goku. It's not like I was some super progressive kid and shunned his antics, but I just found all of those things to be a waste of time. I had no interest in any of it and found it boring. So, by extention, Roshi became the "Ugh, here comes the time-waster" to me.

But, that was just a fact of life back then. As long as nobody was hurt, it is what it is. Thankfully, I was always good at compartmentalizing and able to ignore the things I disliked while enjoying the things that I liked, even if it was in the same series. So, disliked Roshi, didn't care for any of the Bulma stuff (drawn nudity, for example, never did anything for me), cringed at the series's depiction of characters like General Blue, and threw all that stuff in a little mental box along with other things I didn't like (in the same vein as the Garlic Jr. arc) and just kind of went on enjoying the good stuff.

[JulieYBM]

Bro it's a show where people punch each other and shoot energy attacks. it's not that deep or political, I don't know why people keep bringing these topics up.

All art is political. Freeza is based on the corruption in the housing market. Furthermore, the manner in which any subject is written is ultimately going to have a political message. We see this often with how openly queer characters (villainous and creepy) and female characters are written in the series (annoying nuances and impossible for 'men' to understand and relate to).

The thing is the large majority of the people just want a good story, a fun time, good battle and just to be entertained IT'S Dragon Ball come on. I personally believe because of things like these many things are dying today like the comic book industry. Where they keep pushing these narratives onto us. Wen on the other hand Manga is flourishing because they're just concerned with giving us good stories and a fun time. The same thing can be said with "Modern Hollywood movies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUWe11I_7Oo

'Large majority of people' being who and defined how? Is this a number you curated somewhere or your annecdotal evidence? Because if we're relying on annecdotal evidence allow me to subject my own: women hate it when they go into a series and then get slapped in the face with shitty writing of women. Queer people hate it when they go into a series and then get slapped in the face with shitty writing of queer people. Hell, as much as I focus on the positive of getting a half-decent Sapphic couple in Caulifla and Kale it still insults me that it has to be depicted in code rather than just outright saying it.

Japanese comics flourish because it gives us female characters and queer characters/readings of characters. DC and Marvel comics are failing in large part because they're a mess to get into, inconsistently written and written mostly by-and-for middle-aged white cishet men about cishet white men with only recent work being done to correct that issue. I don't care whether something is financially profitable or not but it's really very quite clear that laying the blame for the collapse of Marvel and DC on women, queer and racial minorities is a ridiculous argue to try and make.

Just ask yourself this question "Would the show really be better with these things implemented" probably not

It actually would be an improvement. If you're taking the time to think about what message your art sends and how it affects other human beings you're doing a lot more thinking about how to create a work of that that is true to the experiences of your readers, teachers other readers a new, positive way to think and also means that you're placing more thought into trying to determine how to make good conflict for your characters.

But since we're talking about DB let's talk about it. Dragon Ball is an inherently masculine show as the characters are constantly trying to improve, trying to be better than one another I mean hell it's infimus for people screaming.

How is 'trying to improve' a 'inherently masculine' trait? Most people—not just men—strive to improve on themselves when possible in what areas they want to. I'm a woman and I'm constantly trying to improve on the things about myself that I want to improve on.

Ask anyone ever what got you hooked on the series " it was the fights, the characters, badass moments..." We get to see the character development of for example Gohan when he goes from a weak child that is scared and helpless to complete badass whether it be in the cell Saga or when he returns to fight boo, now of course we all know that he chose to be a scholar (but what do the fans really want to see, what do we hear constantly).

If people were just here for the fights they would only watch the fights and not the connective tissue that makes those fights matter. As a reader, viewer and even writing myself I love fight scenes but well-rounded connoiseurs of art also like more than one thing. Those are important things to write with care.

As for the show being Masculine its predominantly geared towards young boys (ask any younger boy would they like to be like a characters from the show and what do you think they're answer is going to be) As for the show being sexist or misogynist towards woman it's an anime guys this is not unique to Dragon Ball come on.

This is a forum for discussing Dragon Ball—of course we're going to discuss an element of Dragon Ball that is bad and should be recognized as bad due to the influential audience it is targeted towards (children of all genders, with an emphasis on supposed 'boys'). Furthermore, it is our hope that these sorts of things stop happening in future new projects.

[jjgp1112]

There definitely has been a problem in modern media of overcorrecting the portayal of men and writing them as incompetent manbabies who need a woman's guidance just to function properly...I've even noticed my own writing slipping into that and have had to revise it. It's jarring because most of the men I've known all of my life have been pretty solid, competent people? Definitely feels like they're either written by overcompensatory men or women with a surface level understanding of us.

[Shaddy]

I think that most of Goku's journey from the pre-Z days displays a lot of healthy masculinity. Goku isn't just a good dude, he's someone with endless curiosity for the world around him and only really seems to hate people being harmed. His relation to fighting is one of self-improvement, and connection to his closest family and friends. Martial arts for most of the original arcs is a sport; Goku measures himself by his skill at this, but only for himself, not to impress others. He takes it seriously and doesn't fuck around when people are hurting his friends.

It's really Z where I think this argument comes into focus. Not just because Goku starts putting people in danger for self-serving reasons, but also because those traits become inexorably associated with his genes. Suddenly pride and honor become central points, characters obey some kind of fighter's code in battles for the fate of the world, and scenes of brutal violence start showing up for both heroes and villains with a lot less weight behind whether they should actually be shocking or condemned or somesuch. The series glorifies violence way more in its later arcs.

Also all the stuff everyone's already said about the series' treatment of women.