Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Rafa Fast
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:18 pm

Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by Rafa Fast » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:47 pm

So at the current story, we've come to the point where the Tournament of Power is already 3 sagas + a movie away. How much did Goku & Vegeta passed through.
▪︎Surely both got a lot stronger
▪︎Needed to fuse (and use the most powerful form in-fusion) and literally break the reality to face Broly
▪︎Goku trained with a Angel
▪︎Goku have improved his control over the Ultra Instinct a lot
▪︎Vegeta got Ultra Ego
▪︎Vegeta learned Shunkanido and Forced Spirit Fission
▪︎They fought Moro, who was on par with Mastered UI Goku
▪︎Goku could use a giant super strong replica of himself made of ki or something
▪︎Themselves and other characters learned how to do a "better hakai"
▪︎They fought Granolla and Gas with their most powerful forms & techniques and still lost
▪︎Again, in their most powerful forms, got almost a one hit kill from Black Freeza

And even with all this, they are still talking about the damn Jiren in the most recent movie.
This seriously makes it feels like that the ToP was only a year or a few months ago, which isn't true.
We don't know how's Jiren doing now, but at the current state, Goku and Vegeta definitely shouldn't be thinking about him anymore, specially about he still being supposedly stronger than them ("supposedly" because they doesn't say that, but the way the dialogue was made, looks like it want us to believe that they still are way behind Jiren)
There wasn't even a single reference to him during the entire events of the Moro and Granolla arcs.

Maybe I can understand this from a corporative perspective, I know, obviously, they couldn't make references to Moro and Granolla arcs, for Toei, it only exists the Animated productions, so in their timeline, it goes from Tournament of Power, to DBS Broly, to Super Hero Movie.
And that the ToP was the last TV production, and still holds still to this day (just look at how the video games are focusing in content related to it) and it's obvious that the scenes in Beerus' Planet were Toei's idea.

But they forgot that it at least made sense to make a refence to the ToP in DBS Broly, it was literally the most recent event prior to it.
Now it's already been years since its conclusion, both in-universe and out-universe.

They aren't allowed to talk about Moro and Granolla, but they are allowed to talk about someone that isn't even relevant anymore.
At least say Zamasu or something.

I don't get it.
I simply wouldn't want to imagine my life without Dragon Ball, thank you Akira Toriyama (1955-2024), you are now immortal.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2210
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:52 am

It's not so much how strong Jiren was now, rather it was the lasting impact that he had on Goku & Vegeta. When you think about it, there wasn't much about Jiren that set him apart from any other fighter when it came to simple training. However, Jiren knew how to mentally make the absolute most out of ordinary training and it translated to his power rising far beyond anything Goku & Vegeta had achieved by that point. Jiren didn't utilize transformations, God Ki, fusion, absorptions, sparring with Angels, wishes, UI, the power of destruction, or potential unlocks(as far as we know) and his power still rose higher than that of his respective Hakaishin's. Had the Z Senshi not had access to all of the aforementioned power ups and perks, their combined power wouldn't have come close to even one tenth of Jiren's and that thought really had Vegeta contemplating his method of training in the latest movie. I imagine that Goku & Vegeta might currently focus on not relying on their transformations so much but trying to unlock their potential & abilities as just their normal selves. Their latest batch of opponents had access to the methods of getting stronger that Goku & Vegeta are familiar with and those opponents ended up getting more powerful than the Saiyan duo, so it would be more prudent to stop attempting to transformation-stack their way to overcoming each challenge.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by Thani » Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:37 am

Canonically tho, the Tournament of Power happened in Age 780, while Super Hero occurred in 783. So it's been only 3 years since they fought Jiren.

Goku also make benchmarks of the other Gods of Destruction, Belmod included, despite Jiren being explicitly the better fighter of the two.

So instead of "we can one-shot them all now", the story is trying to present the idea that "those guys are really strong, yeah? we better look up to them" and exploring why one of them (Jiren) is that way.

Remember that Super Hero was being produced almost together with Broly, and it's still a Toriyama movie at heart. Tori probably could have referenced the Granolah and Moro arc in a roundabout way if they wanted, but he chose not to. Heck, Goku and Vegeta might not even have mastered Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego at all in the movie.

So, yeah, let's put it this way:

Movie continuity? Yeah, Jiren is still a biiiiig deal.
Manga continuity? It really depends on how Toyo plans to adapt that scene. But as it stands, neither Jiren NOR the other 11 Gods of Destruction have been considered big deals since the Moro arc. Which is a huge mistake and a clear case of dumb power creep, buuuuuut...

User avatar
GokuHater
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:46 am

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by GokuHater » Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:05 am

I am in the camp which doesn't really enjoy Jiren that much so I don't think he was a big deal to begin with.
Sure, he was strong but as far as character goes, the writing was very, very weak. I find Jiren memorable only beacuse Super insisted time and time again to shove down our throats how Jiren is awesome.

I understand how he is looked up as a strong opponent but so could Goku Black (who technically even never was beaten by them), yet the show convieniently never mentions Black while having Jiren all the time.

Off course from movie/anime only perspective you can't have comparisons to Moro, Granolah, Gas, Black Frieza but I feel Toei is promoting Jiren as one of the most awesome characters and well, I just don't see it :P

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:52 am

Jiren is still alive and (presumably) training to catch up. Meanwhile, Zamasu was literally erased from existence. In another timeline entirely. Which was also erased from existence. It doesn't really make much sense to mention Zamasu, he wasn't mentioned in the Broly movie either. Even Ribrianne was mentioned by Goku in the Broly movie, but obviously Zamasu would casually oneshot Ribrianne, so this obviously doesn't mean that Ribrianne is stronger than Zamasu. It's just that the Saiyans are more concerned by people who are still alive, than by people who are confirmed erased from existence.

If Zamasu survived somehow, I'm sure they would mention him as another mighty opponent that they need to be mindful of. But, as he was literally erased from existence, they have no reason to bring him up.

User avatar
GokuHater
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:46 am

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by GokuHater » Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:48 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:52 am Jiren is still alive and (presumably) training to catch up. Meanwhile, Zamasu was literally erased from existence. In another timeline entirely. Which was also erased from existence. It doesn't really make much sense to mention Zamasu, he wasn't mentioned in the Broly movie either. Even Ribrianne was mentioned by Goku in the Broly movie, but obviously Zamasu would casually oneshot Ribrianne, so this obviously doesn't mean that Ribrianne is stronger than Zamasu. It's just that the Saiyans are more concerned by people who are still alive, than by people who are confirmed erased from existence.

If Zamasu survived somehow, I'm sure they would mention him as another mighty opponent that they need to be mindful of. But, as he was literally erased from existence, they have no reason to bring him up.
While you are technically right as long as Kaioshibs and Super Dragon Ball exist, the same thing still could potentially happen 😏

So by that logic I see it as a motivation for training rather than just face a purple block in battle. To be prepared for such situations and to have the power to face them.

On the other hand the Z fighters trained for the Androids not only for the sake of earth but also to test themselve, so what do I know... 🤷

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:20 am

Apparently, but I believe it's mostly for the movieverse where Moro, Granola, all that sorta did not happen.
Therefore, having Jiren still be relevant makes plenty of sense, he's about as strong as Broly without needing to transform and with that power not only under control, but efficiently managed, at his disposal at any time.
That seemed to be the most interesting thing about him, he wastes no energy, he isn't that much stronger than them, yet the usage he gives to his power is magnificent and gives him the edge, like a perfect machine. Mind over body.

Even if we were to take into account the manga, Moro has no attractive qualities besides his endurance and magic, he's a thief, and Gas and Granola are nothing but coward cheaters. There's nothing to learn from them or from Black who stole a body and had to wish for immortality to be relevant. Even from Broly, he's just nuclear reactor, a really really powerful one but worked by the Soviet Union.
Jiren is a nuclear reactor built by some greatly advanced race with no visible flaws.

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by Yuji » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:20 pm

Goku and Vegeta admire people who got strong all through hard work or innate talent. Goku especially admires those who manage to get stronger than him without all the extra help he's had over the years. Jiren exemplifies that perfectly, whether he's been surpassed at this point or not.

Goku had no respect for Moro and was actively disgusted at his way of getting stronger and I'm sure he wouldn't hold Granolah or Gas in high regard either. Goku also respects Broly for his potential, so both Broly and Jiren are the current benchmarks.

Among the Dragon Team, Gohan is also held in high regard for similar reasons. Goku and Vegeta both respect his strength and potential immensely.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5900
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:29 pm

Why would Zamasu be mentioned? Not only is he dead but Jiren and Broly are stronger than him.

Granola and Moro obviously didn't happen in the movie continuity.

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:38 pm

regardless whether Moro and Granolah happened or not, as of Super Hero Jiren is still the best MARTIAL ARTIST, this side of the Angels, that Goku and Vegeta know of.

And like somebody else said, Granolah and Moro were basically cheaters.

User avatar
Galan007
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by Galan007 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:49 pm

In terms of manga continuity, Jiren's power(as of the ToP) is no longer all that relevant.

He has been surpassed by: Broly(presumably?), Moro, Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Gas, Freeza... And I would assume Cell Max/Beast Gohan as well.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:05 pm

GokuHater wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:48 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:52 am Jiren is still alive and (presumably) training to catch up. Meanwhile, Zamasu was literally erased from existence. In another timeline entirely. Which was also erased from existence. It doesn't really make much sense to mention Zamasu, he wasn't mentioned in the Broly movie either. Even Ribrianne was mentioned by Goku in the Broly movie, but obviously Zamasu would casually oneshot Ribrianne, so this obviously doesn't mean that Ribrianne is stronger than Zamasu. It's just that the Saiyans are more concerned by people who are still alive, than by people who are confirmed erased from existence.

If Zamasu survived somehow, I'm sure they would mention him as another mighty opponent that they need to be mindful of. But, as he was literally erased from existence, they have no reason to bring him up.
While you are technically right as long as Kaioshibs and Super Dragon Ball exist, the same thing still could potentially happen 😏

So by that logic I see it as a motivation for training rather than just face a purple block in battle. To be prepared for such situations and to have the power to face them.

On the other hand the Z fighters trained for the Androids not only for the sake of earth but also to test themselve, so what do I know... 🤷
Zamasu was a genius in both fighting skills and planning capabilities, I don't think any other Kai can ever come close to his accomplishments. Zamasu himself is extremely unique, since he is a Kai who despises mortals and has a thirst for blood, meanwhile the other Kais are always portrayed as peaceful and kind creatures.

The point is that Jiren being mentioned in the movie doesn't mean that he's strong. Vegeta himself in the new movie says that Jiren wasn't much stronger than him, he simply had excellent technique and discipline as a fighter.

And the fact that Zamasu wasn't mentioned doesn't prove that he's weak either. Goku remembered Ribrianne in the Broly movie, despite Ribrianne being fodder... so Zamasu would have been remembered by Goku if he was still alive. But since he has been erased from existence, there's no reason to remember him. Goku was thinking of strong people he could have a rematch with (like Jiren, Kefla, and even Ribrianne), and obviously he can't have a rematch with Zamasu (due to him having been nuked into non-existence in another timeline entirely). Thus, Zamasu was not brought up by Goku/Vegeta.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:20 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:47 pm And even with all this, they are still talking about the damn Jiren in the most recent movie.
That’s because in the movie-verse Jiren and Broly were the strongest warriors Goku and Vegeta knew about and the ones the broader audience is most familiar with.

The manga version of Super Hero has instead Black Freeza as their benchmark to surpass. I doubt Jiren will even be brought up there, but who knows.

User avatar
Rafa Fast
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:18 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by Rafa Fast » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:47 pm

Thani wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:37 am Canonically tho, the Tournament of Power happened in Age 780, while Super Hero occurred in 783. So it's been only 3 years since they fought Jiren.
Which is still a long time ago, for example, there wasn't a long time skip between Champa Tournament and Fukkatsu no F, and still, there was no reference to Freeza, there was Frost, but that was only a commentary regarding how similar to Freeza he is, there wasn't any reference to the Freeza revival event by itself.
Thani wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:37 am Goku also make benchmarks of the other Gods of Destruction, Belmod included, despite Jiren being explicitly the better fighter of the two.
But they are deities and also secondary characters only, mentions to characters like this happen quite often.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:52 am Even Ribrianne was mentioned by Goku in the Broly movie
Wait, sorry, when???
Thani wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:37 am Remember that Super Hero was being produced almost together with Broly, and it's still a Toriyama movie at heart. Tori probably could have referenced the Granolah and Moro arc in a roundabout way if they wanted, but he chose not to. Heck, Goku and Vegeta might not even have mastered Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego at all in the movie.
I personally don't think that just because the movie was already being produced since a time where the Moro & Granolla arcs weren't even a thing yet it means that they weren't aware that they had to make it clear that it takes place after these arcs, they clearly were, you can definitely tell this by the fact that Vegeta in the late 2021 trailers already appears wearing his Boo Saga uniform, something that would only happen in May/June 2022 in the Granolla Arc.
Thani wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:37 am Movie continuity? Yeah, Jiren is still a biiiiig deal.
Manga continuity? It really depends on how Toyo plans to adapt that scene. But as it stands, neither Jiren NOR the other 11 Gods of Destruction have been considered big deals since the Moro arc. Which is a huge mistake and a clear case of dumb power creep, buuuuuut...
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:20 am Apparently, but I believe it's mostly for the movieverse where Moro, Granola, all that sorta did not happen.
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:29 pm Granola and Moro obviously didn't happen in the movie continuity.
Is there any info on that? As Far as I know, The Movies are actually in the same continuity as the Manga, Well at least that's how it worked with BoG, FnF and Broly. Maybe they can change their minds with Super Hero, but I really don't think that's the case (check my previous paragraph)
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:20 pm That’s because in the movie-verse Jiren and Broly were the strongest warriors Goku and Vegeta knew about and the ones the broader audience is most familiar with.

The manga version of Super Hero has instead Black Freeza as their benchmark to surpass. I doubt Jiren will even be brought up there, but who knows.
Regarding the second paragraph, For me it's rather only the scenes in Beerus' Planet, I've already said in another thread that they were very clearly Toei's idea, and of course they wanted scenes with Goku and Vegeta in the movie to make the movie sell better, which explains all this.
Regarding the first paragraph, I've talked about that just above.
Thani wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:37 am So instead of "we can one-shot them all now", the story is trying to present the idea that "those guys are really strong, yeah? we better look up to them" and exploring why one of them (Jiren) is that way.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:52 am Jiren is still alive and (presumably) training to catch up. Meanwhile, Zamasu was literally erased from existence. In another timeline entirely. Which was also erased from existence. It doesn't really make much sense to mention Zamasu, he wasn't mentioned in the Broly movie either.

The point is that Jiren being mentioned in the movie doesn't mean that he's strong. Vegeta himself in the new movie says that Jiren wasn't much stronger than him, he simply had excellent technique and discipline as a fighter.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:20 am Therefore, having Jiren still be relevant makes plenty of sense, he's about as strong as Broly without needing to transform and with that power not only under control, but efficiently managed, at his disposal at any time.

That seemed to be the most interesting thing about him, he wastes no energy, he isn't that much stronger than them, yet the usage he gives to his power is magnificent and gives him the edge, like a perfect machine. Mind over body.

Even if we were to take into account the manga, Moro has no attractive qualities besides his endurance and magic, he's a thief, and Gas and Granola are nothing but coward cheaters. There's nothing to learn from them or from Black who stole a body and had to wish for immortality to be relevant. Even from Broly, he's just nuclear reactor, a really really powerful one but worked by the Soviet Union.
Jiren is a nuclear reactor built by some greatly advanced race with no visible flaws.
Yuji wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:20 pm Goku and Vegeta admire people who got strong all through hard work or innate talent. Goku especially admires those who manage to get stronger than him without all the extra help he's had over the years. Jiren exemplifies that perfectly, whether he's been surpassed at this point or not.

Goku had no respect for Moro and was actively disgusted at his way of getting stronger and I'm sure he wouldn't hold Granolah or Gas in high regard either. Goku also respects Broly for his potential, so both Broly and Jiren are the current benchmarks.
ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:38 pm Jiren is still the best MARTIAL ARTIST, this side of the Angels, that Goku and Vegeta know of.
And like somebody else said, Granolah and Moro were basically cheaters.
These are currently the only good arguments for me, thanks to all of you for taking the time to discuss your thoughts on this.
I simply wouldn't want to imagine my life without Dragon Ball, thank you Akira Toriyama (1955-2024), you are now immortal.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5900
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:40 am

Both Broly and Super Hero (Especially the latter) have glaring inconsistencies with the manga. Also, I think someone who worked on Super Hero said they were in different continuities.

User avatar
Rafa Fast
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:18 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by Rafa Fast » Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:17 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:40 am Both Broly and Super Hero (Especially the latter) have glaring inconsistencies with the manga. Also, I think someone who worked on Super Hero said they were in different continuities.
Sorry, but would you care to list them please? In both movies I can only find inconsistencies related to things established in the DB Manga rather than Super, as in Broly, Shenlong only being able tu fulfill one wish (while started to make 3 after Dende became Kami) and in Super Hero, the Red Ribbon being aware of Boo as a terrible monster (while everyone should not remember about him due to Shenlong)
I'll try to find that info about the Super Hero continuity too.
I simply wouldn't want to imagine my life without Dragon Ball, thank you Akira Toriyama (1955-2024), you are now immortal.

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by Cipher » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:46 am

Ignoring the meta elements where, yes, the Jiren dialogue probably owes a lot to the movie being written before even the Moro arc was completed, and not wanting to delve into unadapted manga elements, I still think it shakes out okay even coming off of the manga.

Even factoring in Broly, Moro, Granolah, Gas and Black Freeza, Jiren is still the last replicable goal post they have among mortal fighters. Broly is a genetic aberration, and not even in control of his own power, Moro stole his power via consumption of planets and others' energy, Granolah and Gas wished for theirs, and Feeza makes use of his unique genetics and transformations to surpass them again.

Jiren is the last person they fought without gimmicks or magical circumstances or special transformations who overwhelmed them sheerly as the result of more effective training and fighting. They may have fought stronger opponents since, but they haven't fought any which might be used to illustrate the continued weaknesses of their own approaches.

In this way, the movie's reframing of his power also helps square it away with any version of Super--Vegeta is specifically pointing out that he may not be the strongest person they've ever faced, but is possibly the most effective at utilizing his power.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:38 am

Rafa Fast wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:47 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:52 am Even Ribrianne was mentioned by Goku in the Broly movie
Wait, sorry, when???
In the Broly movie, Goku remembers Ribrianne when he is thinking about the strong fighters he met in the ToP. Remembering Ribrianne along the likes of the Destroyers, Jiren, and SS2 Kefla:

Image


You said in your OP that Goku should have brought up Zamasu in the movies, but the point is that Toriyama was not trying to define power-levels with these flashback scenes. He just wanted to set some continuity between the ToP arcs and the movies. This is possible because the ToP fighters are still alive and can still compete with Goku in the future.

Toriyama could have written a scene where Goku brings up Zamasu, but it would make little sense. Why Goku would bring up Zamasu? Zamasu is erased from existence, Goku can no longer compete with him. I'm sure that if Zamasu somehow survived, Goku or Vegeta would 100% bring him up as a threat they need to train for, like Vegeta brought up Frieza in both movies. We can agree that Zamasu would be a threat equal to or even greater than Frieza in Toriyama's eyes (Toriyama literally didn't know how to defeat Zamasu without literal God intervention).

So, if Toriyama wrote the Future Trunks saga differently, to have Zamasu survive in the end somehow, then he would 10000% be mentioned in the movies by Goku and Vegeta.

In other words, Toriyama isn't saying that Ribrianne > Zamasu simply because Goku remembered Ribrianne, but not Zamasu. Toriyama just wanted to write in a quick nod to the previous arc, which had antagonists who are all still alive.

The other point I was making (but connected to the previous one) is that Jiren was brought up in the latest movie not because he's strong, but because he's still a potential future competitor for Goku. I then pointed out that Ribrianne was also remembered by Goku, but it's not like Ribrianne is supposed to be a powerhouse or anything. It's just that Goku is more interested in living fighters than in dead/nuked/erased fighters.

Your thread is interesting, because in the past I hated how Toriyama didn't have anyone mention or remember Zamasu in the Broly movie. There is even a scene in the Broly movie where Goku remembers all the villains of Earth like Frieza, Cell, and Buu, but he didn't remember Zamasu... but now I think that it makes some sense. Zamasu is dead, so Goku isn't worried about fighting him again in the future, and he was not really a threat to the Present Earth, but to the Future Earth (if we ignore Infinite Zamasu). With all of this taken into consideration, I now think it makes sense that any reference to Zamasu was omitted from the movies.

This is obviously different from Moro and Granolah. When the movies were being written, Zamasu was already an established villain who had his own arc and could have been mentioned, while Moro and Granolah probably weren't even conceived... so it makes sense that they are not mentioned in the movies that were written before these characters were even created.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:35 pm

It's pretty much a mix of what everyone else said. AT started writting the script in 2018 when Broly was in production. I used to remember Goku flat out saying Jiren and co. were stronger than them, but I've just watched the scene with subtitles and he just says "There are lots of strong guys out there..." so it doesn't really contradict the manga.

To add on SupremeKai25's point a bit, Jiren and Broly are the only "bad" guys who are still alive. Zamasu was erased, Moro and Gas are dead, and probably so is Granolah since he shortened his lifespan greatly and there's a timeskip. If he's not dead, then he's pretty old at least. There's also Freeza, but even without the manga it's weird they wouldn't bring Freeza up. Golden Freeza was at least as strong as their SSJB forms...
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5900
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Is Jiren really still a big deal?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:09 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:17 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:40 am Both Broly and Super Hero (Especially the latter) have glaring inconsistencies with the manga. Also, I think someone who worked on Super Hero said they were in different continuities.
Sorry, but would you care to list them please? In both movies I can only find inconsistencies related to things established in the DB Manga rather than Super, as in Broly, Shenlong only being able tu fulfill one wish (while started to make 3 after Dende became Kami) and in Super Hero, the Red Ribbon being aware of Boo as a terrible monster (while everyone should not remember about him due to Shenlong)
I'll try to find that info about the Super Hero continuity too.
Broly:
- The ToP flashback establishes that Goku fought Ribrianne and Kefla but he never did so in the manga.
- Super Saiyan Blue has an aura in the movie and that contradicts directly the manga's Completed Super Saiyan Blue.
- Shenron only doing one wish contradicts only the manga since the anime has Shenron leaving before the last wish is said in episode 68.

Super Hero:
- Gohan uses Super Saiyan when he himself said he will not do it in the manga anymore.
- Gohan doesn't know Piccolo can grow giant when he himself said in the manga that he knows all of Piccolo's techniques.
- Piccolo forgetting he can turn giant is a lot more jarring since he saw 73 do it recently.
- RRA not having any footage of Moro and his army is also jarring since it was a full on invasion through out the whole planet.
- Jiren and Broly still being stronger than Goku and Vegeta directly contradicts the Granolah arc.
Last edited by ZombieVito on Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply