Deep Thoughts: The Piccolo Junior Saga

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Deep Thoughts: The Piccolo Junior Saga

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:43 pm

After defeating the king of demons where does the story go? We get a sequel. Following up Piccolo with another Piccolo may not be a financial risk, but it is a creative one. But let's back up a bit. While plot wise I understand Goku staying in the Heavenly Realm, it was a shame Goku didn't get to see his best friend resurrected. After the introduction of two new character, Mr. Popo (sidestepping the race discussion landmine) and Kami, the audience will spend a few episodes as Goku tries to learn a lesson but never quite learning it. While I get the filler label, I don't like using it as I think it's become a pejorative. Some of the epiosdes were good, some were boring. The highlight of the training was Goku vs. the Goku puppet, and the B team banding together to save the village from the erupting volcano. The choice to have Aono voice Kami was a smart one as it helps further the idea that Kami and Piccolo are one being. What is particularly fascinating is as great as he is conveying evil incarnate with panache; he's adept at playing wise and kind.
Cut to three years later and we are once again reunited with our friends, with Goku having the biggest change. It's not an eventful episode, plot wise (there's more to a story than mere plot, folks, WAY more), but it does a great job of settling the audience in with our friends. I keep referring to the characters as "our friends" because that's who they are to us. By this point, the bond between the characters and the audience is strong that they feel like our friends and regardless of the plot, we just enjoy spending time with them. In the same way they are catching up with each other, so are we. I know this episode aired shortly after the last one, but it would've made a great season premiere.
To keep this summary from growing too long, I won't break down every fight in the tournament, but it's a really fun one that's on par with the previous two. It was a great idea after the previous arc's darkness, this arc is intent on having a lot of fun. The female fighter being Chichi is a fun reveal, but she's insufferable this arc. Did Toriyama know he wanted Goku to become a father so he thought he'd make good on the set up from the first arc and have Goku go through with his "promise"? I'm getting ahead of myself, but I don't warm to Chichi until she starts to lighten up in the Cell arc. One of my favorite moments is after Kuririn's battle against Piccolo, is Muten Roshi's pride in Kuririn's growth. The decision to bring back Tao Pai Pai was an odd choice. I guess it was to show how far Tenshinhan has come as a person. Then Goku vs. Tenshinhan II is what I wanted it to be. It's a fun fight between former enemies, now friends, where both show how much they've grown but with Goku clearly having grown much further. The ending is very clever. Tenshinhan invented a cool technique that may have been almost anyone else, but even in the heat of the battle, Goku is able to figure out its fatal flaw. Kami acting goofy in the guise of Shen is a treat and Yamcha landing balls first is comedy gold. That's gold, Jerry, gold! Shen/Kami giving up his vessel before getting trapped in the Denshi Jar was a small but nice character beat.
One of my favorite aspects about Goku is je has fun during his fights, even ones where the fate of the world is on the line. And now we come to the final battle. The fight against Vegeta is probably my favorite fight in all of Dragon Ball, but this is my favorite one on one fight. After the emotional and epic climax of the last arc, it should've been impossible to exceed that final battle, but Toriyama manages to do so. It is even more amazing that he does it when he chooses another version of Piccolo for this fight. Goku has already defeated him so the rematch should feel less climactic, but it doesn't. It does so for two big reasons: first, the quality of the fight itself is top notch. It's intense, brutal, bloody, clever, fun, and it builds to cathartic finish. The second reason it succeeds is because it is the culmination of Goku's series long quest to win the Tenkaichi Budokai. Anyone claiming that Goku used to take things more seriously, I implore you to watch this fight. The stakes aren't the world, they're winning the title. I could go on and on about how many great moments are packed in this one fight, but I won't. I leave that to you all. The final episode of the tournament has the feel of a final season. Lots of stories have big myth-arcs and a singular goal but the longer you put that off the better the payoff needs to be. Supernatural pulled it off, but X-Files did not. Toriyama does the wise thing and wraps up the dangling threads in this arc. He doesn't just needlessly delay the payoff to keep the story going. And boy does he find a way to continue his story.

The wedding dress arc had me dozing off. 'Nuff said. I would've much preferred it if the episode where Goku wins the tournament to be the finale. It wraps things up in a way that is really satisfying. Of all the Dragon Ball series, this is my favorite ending.

Random Thoughts
Kid Piccolo is adorable
Speaking of adorable, drunk Kuririn!
What does Kami/God actually do? What is his role?
Goku gives Piccolo a free punch and it always bothers me because he doesn't hit Goku as he was about to. He couldn't. The punch Kami blocked had momentum behind it.
The story seems like it's portraying Goku and Chichi as married rather than engaged and I'm not sure why.
The Sokidan doesn't get enough love.
Did Toriyama ever give a reason for Yamcha's scars, either how Yamcha got them or why Toriyama decided to add them to his design?
It took me several times to watch it before realizing that Goku flying at Piccolo was a reveal that he could use the flying technique. I'm so used to seeing Goku fly that it took me a while to realize that Goku having learned to fly was played as a surprise.
Kami and Piccolo speaking an alien language was a great seed that has a great payoff. One of the most interesting things about this moment is when Piccolo starts to hear Kami's thoughts, and Kami has this moment where he blurs the line between the two of them.
The Piccolo being both son and reincarnation is a really fascinating idea. I recall someone saying there's a religious/mythological aspect to this about demons being reborn with souls.

Voice actors:
While it could've been a mistake to recast Piccolo, but Toshio Furukawa is a casting coup. He's incredible in how he can portray great menace and as we will see in a bit, great warmth.
Sean Schemmel had been voicing Goku for a few years by this point, and while I get why he gives Goku a higher pitch to emphasize his youth, Goku's not that much younger at this point than he was in the Freeza arc. It's okay, not awful, but not great either.

And so, Dragon Ball comes to a close, but we are far from the end of the story. If anyone reading this hasn't watched Dragon Ball or hasn't in a while, I highly suggest doing so. I know for many they prefer DBZ and might even see DB as optional, but there's a lot to love in these 153 episodes.

123. Yajirobe takes Goku to Karin for healing; Piccolo's offspring hatches; Karin tells Goku about Kami and the Nyoibo; Goku retrieves the Nyoibo at KH
124. Goku uses the Nyoibo to reach Kami's Palace in the Heavenly Realm; Piccolo terrorizes a family; Goku meets Mr. Popo; fights him but can't land a punch
125. Goku fights Popo; begins training with him; tries to attack Kami, thinking he's Piccolo; Kami reveals that Piccolo is the evil that he expelled from himself
126. Kami restores the DBs; tells Goku to train in the HR; Shen Long revives everyone killed by Piccolo; everyone begins training for the 23rd tournament
127. Goku tries to get the Holy Crown from Mt. Thunder; gets struck by lightning every time; learns from Chu Lee how to sense without using just his 5 senses
128. Mr. Popo transports Goku to a secluded forest; Goku meets Mousse and his family; easily defeats Yaochun; learns to clear his mind and sense while fishing
129. Goku trains with Popo; goes back in time; meets young Muten Roshi and Crane Hermit; Mutaito teaches him about controlling ki; Goku saves Fanfan's life
130. Popo makes a double of Goku; Tenshinhan and the others head for Karin Tower; Goku almost loses the fight to his double; it turns back into a doll at dusk
131. Goku plays tag with Mr. Popo; loses every time; Tenshinhan and the others meet a group of villagers; take part in their festival; the village's volcano erupts
132. Goku continues trying to catch Mr. Popo; makes little progress; Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Yamcha and Kuririn work together; save the village from the magma
133. Goku and his friends reunite for the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai; Piccolo arrives later; the gang spends the night together; Goku spots Piccolo at the prelims
134. Chaozu rigs the drawing; Goku and the others win their matches with ease; Piccolo, as Ma Junior, makes it through; Tao Pai Pai injures and defeats Chaozu
135. Goku and the others win their qualifying rounds; the final eight draw lots; the Crane Hermit taunts the Turtle Hermit and his students; the tournament begins
136. Tao Pai Pai and Tenshinhan begin their match; Tao Pai Pai cuts Tenshinhan with a hidden blade and gets DQed; Tenshinhan knocks him out with one punch
137. Goku beats Anonymous via ring out; she reveals that she's Chichi; Goku agrees to marry her; Kuririn begins fighting Piccolo; uses his new techniques
138. Kuririn admits defeat without shame; Yamcha underestimates Shen; Shen embarrasses him; dodges his attacks; teaches him a few lessons in fighting
139. Yamcha hits Shen with his Controllable Energy Bomb; Shen defeats him via ring out; Goku realizes Shen is Kami; he and Tenshinhan begin their rematch
140. Tenshinhan starts to overwhelm Goku with his increased speed; Goku takes off his weighted clothing; shows off his new speed; steals Tenshinhan's belt
141. Tenshinhan uses his 4-forms technique; Goku tells him he made two errors; knocks all four Tenshinhans out of the ring; explains the flaws in his technique
142. Kami talks to Goku; he and Piccolo begin their match; Piccolo reverses Kami's Mafuba; Kami leaves his host body; Piccolo traps him in the Daimao Seal
143. Shen loses via count out; Piccolo swallows the bottle; Goku explains to his friends that Ma Junior is Piccolo's double; he and Piccolo begin the final round
144. Goku and Piccolo's fierce match continues; Piccolo fires a huge energy blast at the arena; Goku counters and hits Piccolo with a Mega Kamehameha
145. Piccolo survives the blast; tells the crowd he's Piccolo Daimao; they panic and run away; Piccolo turns into a giant; tries to crush Goku; grows even larger
146. Goku enters Piccolo's throat and rescues Kami; Piccolo returns to normal size; Goku rejects Kami's assistance; turns Piccolo's attack against him
147. Piccolo's Mega Exploding Evil Wave destroys most of Papaya Island; Goku withstands it; nearly defeats Piccolo; Piccolo blasts him through the chest
148. Piccolo injures Goku's limbs; Goku rams Piccolo out of the ring; eats a senzu; gives one to Piccolo; turns down Kami's offer to take over; leaves with Chichi
149. Flames trap Gyumao in his castle with Chichi's wedding dress; Goku and Chichi fly to Octagon Village, Oolong's homeland, in search of the Basho Fan
150. Goku and Chichi visit KH; go to Mt. Kiwi; save the fire-eating bird from Pilaf, Mai and Shuu; Goku gets the eggshell; he and Chichi head for Ice Mountain
151. Grandma Hakkake trains Chichi to be a good wife; Chichi finds the Basho Fan; Hakkake gives her a bottle of honey as a gift; the fan fails to put the fire out
152. Goku and Chichi enter Mt. Gogyo; figure out the monsters are illusions; reunites with Gohan and meets Annin the Pyre Keeper at the Eightfold Furnace
153. Goku fights Annin; fixes the hole at the bottom of the furnace with the egg shell and honey; the fire at the castle goes out; Goku and Chichi get married
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Super Sonic
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5171
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:45 pm

Re: Deep Thoughts: The Piccolo Junior Saga

Post by Super Sonic » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:37 am

ABED wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:43 pm The story seems like it's portraying Goku and Chichi as married rather than engaged and I'm not sure why.
I think that's a Japan thing or something. Will say it's at least from a Western view, one of the things the dub did better in emphasizing engagement rather than acting like they had a priest come over and sign things during the commercial break.

User avatar
SuperSaiyaManZ94
I Live Here
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Location: Alabama, USA

Re: Deep Thoughts: The Piccolo Junior Saga

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:01 am

Kami and Piccolo speaking an alien language was a great seed that has a great payoff. One of the most interesting things about this moment is when Piccolo starts to hear Kami's thoughts, and Kami has this moment where he blurs the line between the two of them.
It's obvious with this foreshadowing that Toriyama already had some general idea of where he was going to take the story next by this point, and they even emphasized it further in the anime by making the sky and background turn green like Planet Namek. While it would still be a while yet before Kami's origins were revealed it was cool to see that this exchange was the first hint of what was to come eventually.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Deep Thoughts: The Piccolo Junior Saga

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:08 pm

I appreciate that Toriyama realized he can only get so much mileage out of these tournament arcs. If Goku kept losing that would get frustrating (see Pokemon) and if he kept winning that would get predictable and boring (see Yu-gi-oh) winning his third tournament after almost winning his first, and only losing by a technicality on his second was a smart move.

And I agree the 23rd Budokai is my favorite ending. It feels like the proper conclusion to where Goku started. I like the manga's true ending too of course but the Boo arc had way too many speed bumps along the way and the rest of the manga/Dragon Ball Z will never have that neatly tied feeling of the Shen Long to 23rd Budokai arcs.

I don't dislike the wedding dress filler arc as much as I used to but I really wish Toei had just ended the first series at the 23rd Budokai. I do have to question why the hell none of Goku's friends were invited to his wedding, not even Roshi, a mutual family friend of both the bride and groom. And the decision to have the final shot of the series end on Baba. Why?

User avatar
SuperSaiyaManZ94
I Live Here
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Location: Alabama, USA

Re: Deep Thoughts: The Piccolo Junior Saga

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:41 pm

I appreciate that Toriyama realized he can only get so much mileage out of these tournament arcs. If Goku kept losing that would get frustrating (see Pokemon) and if he kept winning that would get predictable and boring (see Yu-gi-oh) winning his third tournament after almost winning his first, and only losing by a technicality on his second was a smart move.
Yes, this isn't like Pokemon/Pocket Monsters where they dragged out Ash/Satoshi's journey for as long as humanely possible and only let him win a League 25 years later.
I don't dislike the wedding dress filler arc as much as I used to but I really wish Toei had just ended the first series at the 23rd Budokai. I do have to question why the hell none of Goku's friends were invited to his wedding, not even Roshi, a mutual family friend of both the bride and groom. And the decision to have the final shot of the series end on Baba. Why?
That's what baffles me i come on. Sure there's obviously no reason given whatsoever for why they weren't in the ep itself but it really confuses the hell out of me. Even just Roshi being in attendance (given his sister was there, and of course his history with the Ox King) would've been serviceable or also having Krillin there too if not the rest which would've made more sense considering they've known each other for so long, so i just can't make sense of it.

Yeah, it was odd. Like really? You decided to end the final episode of OG DB on a scene of Baba breaking the fourth wall and winking at the audience.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

Dragon Ball Ireland
I Live Here
Posts: 3540
Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Sligo, Ireland

Re: Deep Thoughts: The Piccolo Junior Saga

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pm

I'll never forget watching this arc. I'd been watching Dragon Ball for 5 years at that point, and when I'd seen this ominous promo I began to come to terms with the fact my favourite show was ending. As a child on the autistic spectrum school was never easy for me, but Dragon Ball got me through it all.

This arc was no exception. As has been said after the journey Goku had been on for 148 episodes, fighting all kinds of enemies from the comic relief Pilaf gang to the sinister Red Ribbon Army and coming back to the Tenkaichi Budokai twice he finally achieves his goal of becoming the all time champion martial artist. It was very rewarding, especially after the suffering he had to go through fighting Piccolo junior in the finals.

I'd love to hear from some French fans and their recollections of seeing these episodes for the first time. I know the French dub had a lot of censorship, but the Toonami UK airings of the Blue Water dub (which sourced AB Groupe's French video masters) had all the blood intact so I'm guessing it was the same for the French.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

Post Reply