Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by sangofe » Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:52 am

Jord wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:08 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:48 pm
ATA wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:25 pm Those two voice clips sound awful. Sounded like Alexa or Siri. Dubbing by humans will never go away.
At the very least not anytime soon.
Except that major companies such as Disney are already AI as VO for smaller projects with Aladdin's VA as an example. This will only increase in the future as technology improves.
Got a link?

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by Vegard Aune » Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:53 pm

fleahop wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:02 pm
Inkei9001 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:06 pm Also, scratch the 5-10 years.

It looks like AI art (despite only really kicking off barely 6 months ago) is already making its way into replacing human artists in anime:
https://twitter.com/80Level/status/1621486161456934913

Some folk seem to think companies care about what's going to maintain quality? Nah lol, we went from gorgeous cel animation to crappy digipaint anime and then from crappy digipaint to now (still fairly crappy) CGI anime. Companies are about efficiency and using new tech when it's "good enough" to drastically cut costs. They're not gonna pull internet nerd moves like "uhm aktually to me this still sounds artificial" and not use it lol.

People who think their senses are very good at catching what's fake/artificial are prone to reddit moderator syndrome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0VsHkdPFA0
Eew. Stop.

They do sound artificial, they are incapable of conveying appropriate emotions, they also cannot properly do any nonverbal vocals (which I don't know if you're aware but that is important). It's just not feasible. People can forgive a lot, but this is not one of those things. Humans pick up on the tiniest of variations in sound, especially when it's the voice of another person. Cartoon animation blunders we can forgive, but what you're suggesting is like ignoring the auditory equivalent of the uncanny valley.

Why you're so insistent to pursue this in such a hostile manner is beyond me. Chill.
What I'm more curious about here is, why are so many people going "These examples do not sound good, therefore the hypothetical future scenario described will never happen."

Like, you know the whole point here was not "AI voices are currently at a level where they can replace humans" but "At the speed AI technology is advancing, it very well might reach that point within the next decade", right? Like, no, the clips provided do not actually sound like Horikawa and Nozawa speaking perfect English while still providing S-grade performances. But they hardly sound like text-to-speech either. And this technology is going to continue getting better. We will reach a point where AI becomes so convincing that it becomes nigh-indistinguishable from non-AI. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when.

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:22 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:49 pm Yeah it still sounds artificial af. I wouldn't be worried anytime soon
I agree. It's the same with art because AI art can't do hands and faces right. Not to mention, AI voices can never match the real emontion of people when acting.
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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by NitroEX » Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:25 pm

Vegard Aune wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:53 pm What I'm more curious about here is, why are so many people going "These examples do not sound good, therefore the hypothetical future scenario described will never happen."

Like, you know the whole point here was not "AI voices are currently at a level where they can replace humans" but "At the speed AI technology is advancing, it very well might reach that point within the next decade", right? Like, no, the clips provided do not actually sound like Horikawa and Nozawa speaking perfect English while still providing S-grade performances. But they hardly sound like text-to-speech either. And this technology is going to continue getting better. We will reach a point where AI becomes so convincing that it becomes nigh-indistinguishable from non-AI. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when.
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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:07 pm

To be honest a few of you are really sounding the alarm over nothing.

There is a world of difference between artificially replicating a human voice and believably replicating emotions. Human emotions are pretty complex. Like what does it mean to be sad? Sad that you're not getting that pizza or sad that your best friend just died?

To use a Dragon Ball example there is a huge difference between Chi Chi being angry at Goku for not having a job and Goku being angry at Freeza for killing Kuririn.

Yeah, maybe one day we'll see AI that can be that complex but also maybe one day an alien race of marshmallow people will come to earth to enslave everyone.


Realistically, all AI voice acting is going to do in the foreseeable future is generic promotional soundbytes and loop in the odd line or two when a voice actor is unavailable (or the company doesnt feelt like paying the actor to come in to dub a single line)

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:11 pm

sangofe wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:52 am
Jord wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:08 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:48 pm

At the very least not anytime soon.
Except that major companies such as Disney are already AI as VO for smaller projects with Aladdin's VA as an example. This will only increase in the future as technology improves.
Got a link?
I’m not sure about Aladdin, but Disney has been using AI voices for Darth Vader and young Luke Skywalker recently.

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:33 pm

To me, it's all a matter of a series of questions.

Why is this being worked on? What are the benefits? How will this impact people? Do the positives outweigh the negatives? What are the negatives?

To me, I don't see a point in developing this for a great purpose other than to create a cheap alternative for people. And to me, a big company can just quickly and cheaply pump out content while not having to pay people to do the same things. I also feel like the further we go with having AI-generated art, the less talent is valued.

Who would care to see Michael Jordan on the court if there was a mini tank driving around firing basketballs into hoops? Who would pay an artist to draw a family portrait when they can just have a computer do it for free? Yay for the person who saved the money, but what's the artist supposed to do? Take up plumbing? Work retail? People make a living and feed their families on their talent that AI looks to wipe out.

I'm all for technology and I'm not saying that the world should stagnate itself technologically. But it has to make sense and it has to benefit us. By "benefit us," I mean benefit us as a whole, not just some meager examples of someone saving some money or a giant corporation saving money.

And I think the push-back saying that the two examples used in this thread sound terrible is because it's promoted as so freaking good--better than anything we have. Nope--not even close. I do see a future in this and I do think that it'll be explored further and further. But I feel like what would be an amusing little novelty for us would have severe implications on others' lives.

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:57 pm

No? That's stupid

By your own logic, they should just fire the Japanese cast because the AI can do the work anyway.

Which is also stupid.

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by coola » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:58 pm

I ve recently watched some of AI voiced videos made by CinemassacreTruth reddit sub, and AI got upgrade few days ago, and it's crazy how it sounds like real James and Mike (Then again, since movie flopped, AVGN got so burned out and uninterested, it's not that hard to sound more enthusiastic :) )https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNWF3U41q_Q
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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:01 pm

coola wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:58 pm I ve recently watched some of AI voiced videos made by CinemassacreTruth reddit sub, and AI got upgrade few days ago, and it's crazy how it sounds like real James and Mike (Then again, since movie flopped, AVGN got so burned out and uninterested, it's not that hard to sound more enthusiastic :) )https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNWF3U41q_Q

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by dva_raza » Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:16 pm

Yeah those clips from the OP are just one cheap example lol. The real thing is developing though.

I don’t know to which extent it will be actually used to replace actors, but yeah it’s gonna expand in the next 10 years. As others said, as of now it's mostly being used for background and for video games (actors still getting royalties).
Basically it's viewed as a tool just as CGI, to assist or to create things that you otherwise can’t, for now.

TheGreatness25 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:33 pm To me, it's all a matter of a series of questions.

Why is this being worked on? What are the benefits?
It’s cheaper and makes the process simpler, it's dub on demand. I mean it cuts about 60% of the recording process (Casting, rehearsing, retakes).

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:07 pm There is a world of difference between artificially replicating a human voice and believably replicating emotions. Human emotions are pretty complex. Like what does it mean to be sad?
Sonantic, the company that recently partnered with Val Kilmer to give him a voice for projects (since he practically lost his) https://youtu.be/OSMue60Gg6s is currently working on precisely that. Improving the human nuance and capture emotions and inflection, like being out of breath and crying. Which I still find too polished and monotone, but the truth is to most people it’s not perceptible.

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:30 pm

dva_raza wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:16 pm
TheGreatness25 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:33 pm To me, it's all a matter of a series of questions.

Why is this being worked on? What are the benefits?
It’s cheaper and makes the process simpler, it's dub on demand. I mean it cuts about 60% of the recording process (Casting, rehearsing, retakes).
lol What about the rest of my post? I answer this question myself.

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by dva_raza » Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:45 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:30 pm
dva_raza wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:16 pm
TheGreatness25 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:33 pm To me, it's all a matter of a series of questions.

Why is this being worked on? What are the benefits?
It’s cheaper and makes the process simpler, it's dub on demand. I mean it cuts about 60% of the recording process (Casting, rehearsing, retakes).
lol What about the rest of my post? I answer this question myself.
? The rest of your post seems like the general thoughts about whats positive and negative that most agree with. I just said why it makes dubbing more practical

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by fleahop » Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:10 am

I believe most reasonable people understand that one day in the future AI will be capable of sounding and acting like anyone. If our technology and software development continue to progress like they have I do not see a reason why this won't be the case. Personally, I think it will be infeasible for quite some time though (decades).

Something else that's troubling about this that I am not seeing mentioned is the lacking collaborative art process. Assuming a Toei decides to embark on a AI voices for Dragon Ball in the future and assuming the technology is passable, we will be lacking in the artistic process of the direction, acting, and writing. The voice actors don't just read off the script, there's more work and collaboration than that and it would be lost in this scenario. Actually, in this scenario I doubt there would be script writers either.

This brings forth another issue: machines (virtual and physical) have zero creativity and will possibly never have creativity. Why do we go watch live performances? Why do we go to museums to see things in-person? Why are amazed at the Olympic-level performances even though we've seen others perform similarly? Nuance, overcoming limitations, creativity. These are things that machines cannot do. They are definitely useful tools, as MasenkoHA states. To think they will be truly suitable replacements for VAs is blasphemy to me. I never wish for there to be a time where that is the norm.
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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by Inkei9001 » Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:58 am

Vegard Aune wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:53 pm What I'm more curious about here is, why are so many people going "These examples do not sound good, therefore the hypothetical future scenario described will never happen."

Like, you know the whole point here was not "AI voices are currently at a level where they can replace humans" but "At the speed AI technology is advancing, it very well might reach that point within the next decade", right? Like, no, the clips provided do not actually sound like Horikawa and Nozawa speaking perfect English while still providing S-grade performances. But they hardly sound like text-to-speech either. And this technology is going to continue getting better. We will reach a point where AI becomes so convincing that it becomes nigh-indistinguishable from non-AI. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when.
Can't believe it took that long for a rational reply to this thread :pray:

Anyway seeing more DB ones pop up around the internet:

(tw: suicide) Goku (Schemmel) breaks Frieza's ego: In my opinion this already sounds better than Schemmel's Ginyu arc-Android arc performance. I was rewatching DBZ back in 2016 in dub and first 67 episodes or whatever were good but then the old dub came back in and it was unwatchable for me. I had to switch to JP. This, however, I could probably actually endure this schemmel despite the monotone nature of the example
TheGreatness25 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:33 pm And I think the push-back saying that the two examples used in this thread sound terrible is because it's promoted as so freaking good--better than anything we have. Nope--not even close. I do see a future in this and I do think that it'll be explored further and further. But I feel like what would be an amusing little novelty for us would have severe implications on others' lives.
I only show excitement for the Horikawa one. And that's because I found it pretty crazy to hear Horikawa's voice speaking English and I much prefer that over every English dub Vegeta voice we've ever gotten. Is that me saying I think AI voice acting in general is already better than all real human voice acting we've ever gotten? I literally said it sounds "almost real" and not "it sounds real" so should be telling you I don't think it's there yet? But, again just to reiterate, I find even an "almost real" Horikawa AI Vegeta sounds more like an ideal Vegeta than an overly grunty Sabat or Drummond Vegeta, let alone those Malaysian dubs or whatever.

And lol if my enthusiasm for the Horikawa example was the cause of the adamant push-back against AI voice acting in general, rather than objective analysis of the examples and what could come later...well, really shows people's immaturity and irrationality doesn't it

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:10 pm

Inkei9001 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:58 am
TheGreatness25 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:33 pm And I think the push-back saying that the two examples used in this thread sound terrible is because it's promoted as so freaking good--better than anything we have. Nope--not even close. I do see a future in this and I do think that it'll be explored further and further. But I feel like what would be an amusing little novelty for us would have severe implications on others' lives.
I only show excitement for the Horikawa one. And that's because I found it pretty crazy to hear Horikawa's voice speaking English and I much prefer that over every English dub Vegeta voice we've ever gotten. Is that me saying I think AI voice acting in general is already better than all real human voice acting we've ever gotten? I literally said it sounds "almost real" and not "it sounds real" so should be telling you I don't think it's there yet? But, again just to reiterate, I find even an "almost real" Horikawa AI Vegeta sounds more like an ideal Vegeta than an overly grunty Sabat or Drummond Vegeta, let alone those Malaysian dubs or whatever.

And lol if my enthusiasm for the Horikawa example was the cause of the adamant push-back against AI voice acting in general, rather than objective analysis of the examples and what could come later...well, really shows people's immaturity and irrationality doesn't it
No, no, no. Please don't get me wrong. You have every right to be excited. Your reaction to this isn't what caused the push-back. I think it's the way that AI voicing is presented in general. Line "Oh, my God! Look at this! It's better than real life!" Like, no it's not.

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by NitroEX » Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:57 pm

Inkei9001 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:58 am I only show excitement for the Horikawa one. And that's because I found it pretty crazy to hear Horikawa's voice speaking English and I much prefer that over every English dub Vegeta voice we've ever gotten.
I mean, it sounds more or less like a younger version of Milton James' Vegeta from the US release of Dragon Ball Final Bout and people unanimously hate that take. I'm not hating on either btw, I like the novelty of an English Horikawa and would take it over Sabat's Z voice for example, but I'm just pointing out the obvious.

The Nozawa one resembles MasakoX funnily enough, which echoes some of my comments in an older thread prior to hearing this.
Anyway seeing more DB ones pop up around the internet:

(tw: suicide) Goku (Schemmel) breaks Frieza's ego: In my opinion this already sounds better than Schemmel's Ginyu arc-Android arc performance.
This one is kind of strange. It sort of sounds like Schemmel but without that nasally sound he often has. It's a better voice to my ears but again, it barely resembles Schemmel in the voice or the way he usually delivers his lines.

Something which no one appears to have brought up is the fact that an AI voice replica cannot produce screams. Dragon Ball is obviously a scream-heavy anime so realistically you couldn't use these to dub a whole show unless you were recycling the yells from somewhere. Plus, fitting the timing of the lip flaps would be another issue altogether.

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by Inkei9001 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:44 pm

NitroEX wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:57 pm
Inkei9001 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:58 am I only show excitement for the Horikawa one. And that's because I found it pretty crazy to hear Horikawa's voice speaking English and I much prefer that over every English dub Vegeta voice we've ever gotten.
I mean, it sounds more or less like a younger version of Milton James' Vegeta from the US release of Dragon Ball Final Bout and people unanimously hate that take. I'm not hating on either btw, I like the novelty of an English Horikawa and would take it over Sabat's Z voice for example, but I'm just pointing out the obvious.

The Nozawa one resembles MasakoX funnily enough, which echoes some of my comments in an older thread prior to hearing this.
Anyway seeing more DB ones pop up around the internet:

(tw: suicide) Goku (Schemmel) breaks Frieza's ego: In my opinion this already sounds better than Schemmel's Ginyu arc-Android arc performance.
This one is kind of strange. It sort of sounds like Schemmel but without that nasally sound he often has. It's a better voice to my ears but again, it barely resembles Schemmel in the voice or the way he usually delivers his lines.

Something which no one appears to have brought up is the fact that an AI voice replica cannot produce screams. Dragon Ball is obviously a scream-heavy anime so realistically you couldn't use these to dub a whole show unless you were recycling the yells from somewhere. Plus, fitting the timing of the lip flaps would be another issue altogether.
Yeah for Goku I've also always found MasakoX's take on Goku to be pretty much the ideal Goku voice that holds a resemblance to Nozawa without sounding weird (e.g. people might disagree but I never liked Peter Kelamis' movie 2 Nozawa emulation).

And yeah the current AI voice synthesis doesn't let you get screams or grunts but that's just something that seems like it'll be in the next steps. The first AI voice synthesis tech from the last few years was plagued with too much warping/phasing and other artefacts, and the current state seems to have been aimed at largely resolving those issues. Now that they can produce fairly clean voices, I think the next steps will include adding more nuanced elements like prompts and controls for shouts/screams or whatever, and hopefully better pacing.

Also I see some saying AI can't do emotions... what would you say about this?: https://vocaroo.com/1gQTPSHBtBHX
Idk about you but to me he sounds pretty damn angry, and last time I checked anger is an emotion :thinking:
Literally right from start to finish, the way he starts with a higher pitch then gradually lowers his pitch and builds up to that final burst. not to mention the inhaling too before that final sentence

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by dva_raza » Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:00 pm

Inkei9001 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:58 am And lol if my enthusiasm for the Horikawa example was the cause of the adamant push-back against AI voice acting in general, rather than objective analysis of the examples and what could come later...well, really shows people's immaturity and irrationality doesn't it
No, it's mostly that your enthusiasm literally comes off as promotion. And since the idea of having your trademark ability, whatever it is you do, taken and used to do your work for you is fucked up, naturally the general response to it is defensive, whether it works or not is not the point.

I would love english Vegeta with Ryo’s voice. And also you can just find an English speaking actor who has Ryo’s timbre. Solved.

NitroEX wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:57 pm Something which no one appears to have brought up is the fact that an AI voice replica cannot produce screams.
They can produce screams. The examples OPs examples are just a basic deepfake with zero modulation lol.
Like I mentioned there’s a company in particular that works mostly videogames (Sonantic) that has been developing inflection and pitch (meaning: screaming, crying, laughing or being out of breath).

Like this demo https://youtu.be/vDv-pMJ4MRM https://youtu.be/zwYiDraKtSA

The screaming one is too restrained and the “emotional” escalation sounds is artificial as shit, but it’s certainly in the works to expand and even this is already good enough to the average person. And the crying one isn't bad at all.

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Re: Could foreign dub casts be a thing of the past?

Post by NitroEX » Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:25 pm

Inkei9001 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:44 pm Yeah for Goku I've also always found MasakoX's take on Goku to be pretty much the ideal Goku voice that holds a resemblance to Nozawa without sounding weird (e.g. people might disagree but I never liked Peter Kelamis' movie 2 Nozawa emulation).
Let's not get too carried away here. MasakoX (in terms of a speaking voice) might be a decent match for Nozawa's boyish tone but he's pretty mediocre when it comes to screams and sounds nothing like Nozawa in that regard.

I personally disagree on Kelamis. I think he's the most well-rounded of the bunch and his 'emulation' of Nozawa doesn't require him to go out of his range like it would for other actors. While performing Rolf, for example, he made yells reminiscent of Nozawa and that role had nothing to do with Dragon Ball, it was just him drawing from his Greek family background and talent for imitation (in his case, his grandmother I believe).

Similarly, I consider Barbera Goodson to also have yells reminiscent (or at least compatible) with Nozawa if voice matching is the top priority (which it often isn't btw).
dva_raza wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:00 pm They can produce screams. The examples OPs examples are just a basic deepfake with zero modulation lol.
Like I mentioned there’s a company in particular that works mostly videogames (Sonantic) that has been developing inflection and pitch (meaning: screaming, crying, laughing or being out of breath).

The screaming one is too restrained and the “emotional” escalation sounds is artificial as shit, but it’s certainly in the works to expand and even this is already good enough to the average person. And the crying one isn't bad at all.
Interesting, but it still sounds very restrained like you mentioned.

Perhaps one day if they feed enough data into it it could be possible to produce a scream that sounds intense and believable but I have a feeling it would only be possible if you had the actor in question commit to performing samples for the AI and basically signing away their rights to a company. I don't see many working voice actors complying with that as they stand to make more long-term under traditional agreements. If a company like Toei or Crunchyroll were to use them without their consent it would no doubt open the door for legal battles and a possible change in laws.

Fan projects are more likely to fly under the radar although the quality of samples will vary so we'll see.

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