Has your opinion on any Dragon Ball media changed over the years?

[dva_raza]

When Super Saiyan was introduced it was treated as this legendary thing that only happens once every hundred years.

Even when Gohan, Vegeta, and Future Trunks all obtain it later on we see the mental and emotional anguish they had to go through to achieve it.


And then the two little rugrats just turn Super Saiyan for funsies to the complete disbelief of Gohan and Vegeta.


It's absolutely taking the piss out of the importance of Super Saiyan. Neither Abed or Jjgp are framing it as a bad thing by the way. That's just what it is.

..I wasn't saying they are.

I was saying that I don't think the way SS progressed in universe is due to the importance of what had been established conceptually being lost. To me it was a conscious intent because it makes logical sense.

Trunks and Goten didn't turn for the funsies. They had more facility for it just as Gohan had more potential than Goku.

More like the only hadwave I see is them adjusting its concept for Vegeta to obtain it but that's all.

I don't think you're understanding us.

Yes, logically that all makes sense and everything. But in the context of the story, going from Goku et al having to go through the ringer mentally, physically, and emotionally to achieve Super Saiyan, only for two little brats to do it on command as their little plaything cuz genetics does cheapen the form narratively speaking. But it's cool because the story acknowledges that and makes it the joke. It's not about whether it makes sense, it's about how it waters down the significance.

Ok? The only thing I’m not understanding is what about what I said is supposedly incorrect...

Your point is things like the Potara, SSGod, the zenkais, SS for Vegeta, are elements that were introduced with rules or conditions that then became obsolete. (And that you have no issue with that.) Great.
And I was saying specifically, in the context of the story, Goten and Trunks getting SS isn’t an example of something becoming obsolete for plot. Since from what I’ve seen it’s just a thing in DB for kids being naturally stronger than parents, Super Saiyan or not.

And I dunno about you but ABED literally said “why are Goten and Trunks even stronger than Gohan at their age? Because the plot needs them to be”

So if you also think it’s plot > logic regarding that specifically, that’s your opinion. That’s very simplistic and not strictly how it happens.
Not every element is inserted for the need to make a plot. Plot can actually write itself as result of notions that were already previously established.

[jjgp1112]

..I wasn't saying they are.

I was saying that I don't think the way SS progressed in universe is due to the importance of what had been established conceptually being lost. To me it was a conscious intent because it makes logical sense.

Trunks and Goten didn't turn for the funsies. They had more facility for it just as Gohan had more potential than Goku.

More like the only hadwave I see is them adjusting its concept for Vegeta to obtain it but that's all.

I don't think you're understanding us.

Yes, logically that all makes sense and everything. But in the context of the story, going from Goku et al having to go through the ringer mentally, physically, and emotionally to achieve Super Saiyan, only for two little brats to do it on command as their little plaything cuz genetics does cheapen the form narratively speaking. But it's cool because the story acknowledges that and makes it the joke. It's not about whether it makes sense, it's about how it waters down the significance.

Ok? The only thing I’m not understanding is what about what I said is supposedly incorrect...

Your point is things like the Potara, SSGod, the zenkais, SS for Vegeta, are elements that were introduced with rules or conditions that then became obsolete. (And that you have no issue with that.) Great.
And I was saying specifically, in the context of the story, Goten and Trunks getting SS isn’t an example of something becoming obsolete for plot. Since from what I’ve seen it’s just a thing in DB for kids being naturally stronger than parents, Super Saiyan or not.

And I dunno about you but ABED literally said “why are Goten and Trunks even stronger than Gohan at their age? Because the plot needs them to be”

So if you also think it’s plot > logic regarding that specifically, that’s your opinion. That’s very simplistic and not strictly how it happens.
Not every element is inserted for the need to make a plot. Plot can actually write itself as result of notions that were already previously established.

Kids being naturally stronger than their parents and outdoing their feats out of thin air is practically the dictionary definition of everything I was already talking about, dude. No different than Goku and the Saiyans stomping all over everybody else because they're aliens.

[Skar]

It changed for me but then it kinda went back to what it was originally as I got older. In the late teens and 20s, I was more critical of entertainment I enjoyed as a kid. In my 30s, I now enjoy cartoons and anime as much as I did back then. Maybe it's feeling I'm too old or not having the energy to say much if I didn't like it. I'm not sure.

I still enjoy everything up to the Freeza including some filler and old movies. Cell, Buu, GT and DBS I can rewatch the parts I enjoyed but probably couldn't sit through a complete rewatch. Maybe by the time I have kids and they're old enough I can have a rewatch of the entire series with them.

[TheGreatness25]

Maybe by the time I have kids and they're old enough I can have a rewatch of the entire series with them.

I always thought this, but I'm starting to change my mentality on it. I feel like it would be torture to the kid. At that point, it'll be an old, outdated cartoon that is around as old as I am. I can just imagine myself as a kid being forced to sit and watch something that my parents wanted to show me from their childhood--it's torture. Especially because I know a lot of people born after 2000 that have zero interest even entertaining media from before 2000. I know a lot of people--grown-ups at this point--who can't watch something like Everybody Loves Raymond because it's too outdated (afterall, he's not using his iPhone or talking about Instagram).

So, based on all that, I wouldn't put my kids through the torture. They'll have their own things they'll enjoy like I enjoyed Dragon Ball.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think it'd be a chore, I still can't believe how many kids are into DB nowadays and with parents that had no clue what DB was, not something inherited, they genuinely like it. Who knows what the next decade will have in store, but aliens, fights and planets going boom will never be outdated.

[ABED]

Maybe by the time I have kids and they're old enough I can have a rewatch of the entire series with them.

I always thought this, but I'm starting to change my mentality on it. I feel like it would be torture to the kid. At that point, it'll be an old, outdated cartoon that is around as old as I am. I can just imagine myself as a kid being forced to sit and watch something that my parents wanted to show me from their childhood--it's torture. Especially because I know a lot of people born after 2000 that have zero interest even entertaining media from before 2000. I know a lot of people--grown-ups at this point--who can't watch something like Everybody Loves Raymond because it's too outdated (afterall, he's not using his iPhone or talking about Instagram).

So, based on all that, I wouldn't put my kids through the torture. They'll have their own things they'll enjoy like I enjoyed Dragon Ball.

I'd be willing to be that's not the case. Kids don't dislike older cartoons and if the series keeps going with new cartoons, new generations will have both to enjoy. I know this from experience as well as having a neice and nephew who enjoy older cartoons. Friends is still one of the most popular shows on streaming and continues to find new audiences despite having ended nearly 20 years ago.

I'd be willing to bet there's something deeper that's preventing some from enjoying something like Everybody Loves Raymond than no iPhones and Social Media. If not, are some people so shallow or addicted to their phones and social media that even the shows they watch need them? My guess it's neither of those things, but it was a kneejerk grasp for something that didn't click with them. It was a tangible detail. You say they were grown ups but that covers a lot of ground. Everybody Loves Raymond still skews older than people in their 20s. It was about a middle-aged man. Friends is about grown ups, but it's about people just out of college, so regardless of whether the tech is out of date, there is a relatability to it for people in their 20s.

I'm sure we can find both types but I believe younger generations have no issue enjoying older stories (movies, books, TV shows) and are in enough numbers to make it profitable to keep older shows around. And as the above poster mentioned, fights, martial arts, and destroying planets won't go out of style.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Maybe by the time I have kids and they're old enough I can have a rewatch of the entire series with them.

I always thought this, but I'm starting to change my mentality on it. I feel like it would be torture to the kid. At that point, it'll be an old, outdated cartoon that is around as old as I am. I can just imagine myself as a kid being forced to sit and watch something that my parents wanted to show me from their childhood--it's torture. Especially because I know a lot of people born after 2000 that have zero interest even entertaining media from before 2000. I know a lot of people--grown-ups at this point--who can't watch something like Everybody Loves Raymond because it's too outdated (afterall, he's not using his iPhone or talking about Instagram).

So, based on all that, I wouldn't put my kids through the torture. They'll have their own things they'll enjoy like I enjoyed Dragon Ball.

I argue it would be more likely Dragon Ball simply isn't that kid's thing than them seeing it as an old, outdated show, sure there were kids who watched Kai on Nicktoons completely oblivious to the fact the animation was from an old show. Dragon Ball transcends the generations, as we've seen because merchandise can be quite easy to find, even in mainstream stores from companies like ABYStyle.

Hell, when I came out of seeing Super Hero in the cinema there was a kid with his mother and he pointed at the poster, recognizing the older brand name rather than the new one he said "mam it's Dragon Ball Z". I think the name sells itself, and that's not even accounting for how marketable the transformations, crazy fights, planets exploding, aliens and so fort all are.

[Skar]

I always thought this, but I'm starting to change my mentality on it. I feel like it would be torture to the kid. At that point, it'll be an old, outdated cartoon that is around as old as I am. I can just imagine myself as a kid being forced to sit and watch something that my parents wanted to show me from their childhood--it's torture. Especially because I know a lot of people born after 2000 that have zero interest even entertaining media from before 2000. I know a lot of people--grown-ups at this point--who can't watch something like Everybody Loves Raymond because it's too outdated (afterall, he's not using his iPhone or talking about Instagram).

So, based on all that, I wouldn't put my kids through the torture. They'll have their own things they'll enjoy like I enjoyed Dragon Ball.

That could be the case for some kids but it might come down to personal preference. Maybe also the younger generation having shorter attention spans or just used to shorter series. My nieces are 10 and 16 and watch anime but had trouble getting past a few episodes of longer classic series like DB and Naruto. They enjoyed the Studio Ghibli and other old films from the 90s and earlier so DB feeling outdated might not have been the reason they couldn't get into it.

I think there will always be some kids who will discover an old series and bingewatch it or at least partially to catch up. One Piece has been airing for almost 25 years but it's still the same shonen demographic and much of the current audience was born after the series started. Some might have bingewatched all 1000 episodes while others start anywhere and only went back to watch some iconic scenes. My nephew and his friends play Fortnite and familiar enough with the new characters added are like Goku and Darth Vader. They haven't watched all of SW or DB but just some scenes.

If I try watching DB with them or with my kids one day, I probably have to go with Kai or fan recuts since the entire series is over 600 episodes in total.

[ABED]

I think the shorter attention span is something that's overstated. I think the difference between kids now and when I grew up is minimal. What I think has changed is there is so much more, and so much more great stuff out there that we take a shorter amount of time to reach a conclusion about whether we will continue watching. Once our minds are made up, people will binge an incredible number of episodes. Death Note is relatively short but I should've stopped earlier. I'll never watch again, but I can rewatch DB.

[Yuji]

I didn't like Gohan initially outside of his Great Saiyaman stint but now I can appreciate the character in its totality.

[Dr. Casey]

I think any medium reaches a point where it becomes advanced enough, or close enough to reaching maturity, that it withstands the test of time better. Not every 10 or 20 year period is created equal.

To use videogames as an example, even amongst retro enthusiasts, 90+ percent of the overall focus is on the 8-bit and 16-bit eras. Games of the Atari era and older are a bit too old and simplistic, even for myself - I love the NES and Sega Master System (I'm not a retro enthusiast specifically, I just love everything from 1985+) but have pretty much zero interest in the Atari or other second-generation consoles, and being that I was born in 1987 the Atari was a recent memory when I came around. There's many people (not the majority) born in the 2000s and 2010s that can enjoy a good NES game from 1988, yet most people born in the late 1980s like myself would have no interest in an Atari 2600 game from 1982 released only a few years before we were born.

As for movies, that follows a similar scale. Someone born in the 2010s is more likely to enjoy a movie released in the 1990s, than someone born in the 1970s would be to enjoy a black-and-white film from the 50s (Gone With the Wind and The Wizard of Oz are both popular with modern audiences despite being 1939 films, but they're outliers and of course are in color). And even amongst retro movie enthusists, movies from the 40s and 50s will likely draw in larger numbers than a silent movie with jittery animation from 1924.

Obviously everything, no matter how old, has its audience. The audience is just small whenever you go back in time to the beginning of a medium's history, and the further along in time you go, the more it begins gradually appealing to a progressively wider audience (until it reaches a maturity point where it can be appreciated even by most people in the present).

As for anime, I also figure that it would experience a curve where it gradually appeals to less and less niche groups of people, before eventually attaining more mainstream status. Do I expect the first anime TV series ever - an educational series from 1961 called Instant History - to be very popular among modern audiences?










Ehh... no. Even amongst people that are into retro or oldschool anime, this would probably draw in nobody but the most curious of anime historians. What about anime from 1964?








Okay, I can see that having more appeal to a certain type of person that loves very old anime (either exclusively, or someone who simply enjoys shows from all time periods). It has more genuine quality than the show from 1961. What about series from the late 60s?








By the time you get to the late 60s, there would be another spike in numbers - color makes a big difference, and the late 60s is where color became a mainstream thing in anime (from 1961-1966, every anime I could find was in black-and-white, aside from Kimba the White Lion and its sequel). 1968 anime like Ogon Bat would probably appeal to everyone in the 'retro enthusiast' crowd, and even a certain number of people from outside that demographic might be okay with watching a handful of series of this ilk, even if they wouldn't touch anything from the early and mid 60s.

By the time you get to the 80s, there's a handful of series that hold mainstream appeal and that which most people from all age demographics tend to enjoy. I think these series are a minority - I think most anime from the 80s are too old and crusty to be particularly popular amongst young people, and for kids who are weened on 10s/20s anime, some of them might even think the same of 90s anime and not feel at home until they reach the 2000s - but I think Dragon Ball is very much one of them. From what I can gather, even kids of today generally have no problems enjoying it. It's just a good and very well-made show, and is modern enough that it's perfectly capable of being a pretty, well-animated, visually appealing series. 1986 is old enough to be retro and oldschool, but it's not buried under a mountain of crust like something from 1966 would be.

[ClutchBangstrip]

Yes. I realized the Dragon Ball anime had so much filler that it's literally unwatchable to me. I always felt like that with Z, but after rewatching OGDB; having read the manga, OGDB is in that category, too.

It's bad, imo.

[Hellspawn28]

I used to dislike DBZ Movie 2, but I grown to like it over the years. I thought DBZ Movie 8 was good, but the film gets worse when rewatching it. The pacing for the film sucks and the twist of Goku crying making Broly mad is still so stupid.

[OmegaRockman]

I don't like the old dubs anymore and I appreciate the Boo arc much more even if it's still my least favorite of the Z era. I went through a phase some years back where I preferred Japanese Z to Kai, but I'm currently back to preferring Kai. I knew I felt that way when tried to join in on one of the community rewatches and tapped out at the end of the Saiyan arc. That pacing makes a real difference. Japanese Z still does the big moments better though. I also appreciate GT more these days even though I like Super more.

[Scientist Fu]

I used to dislike DBZ Movie 2, but I grown to like it over the years. I thought DBZ Movie 8 was good, but the film gets worse when rewatching it. The pacing for the film sucks and the twist of Goku crying making Broly mad is still so stupid.

That's never been the case, it is a big misunderstanding among the community. The movie never implies such thing, the only thing that is explicitely said is that Goku and Broly were born on the same day and that "destiny" made them meet again. The flashbacks are linked to Broly's tragic past events, it is more obvious in movie 10 that he associates the cries with bad memories https://youtu.be/GYaZq5VYj0s?t=94 as you can see it triggers his PTSD [Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder].

[Shinsa]

DBS is where I struggle with the franchise. I very much dislike modern DB starting from "yo son Goku and his friends return" and I must admit I'm overly negative towards its treatment. I show up every now and again when something new DB comes out to have discussions but I've learned to get in and watch and then get out. About Super in general I've grown out of the whole tournament arcs or new crazy transformations I used to love as a kid and enjoy the more "boring" slice of life episodes. I know DB is a fighting anime but being older and experienced, some of those episodes put a smile on my face. I want more character moments from DB and maybe I'm wrong for asking it to be more then what it is/was. With saying all this I've learned to not expect to much from modern DB and just go with the flow. I may still think of what could have been but it's made me enjoy some of the newer movies.

DB Kai I'm fine with, its a good watch to listen to the dub with better translations. I was at first disappointed with the poor remaster job but I've learned to like it for what it has done for a new generation. It was also a nice excuse to rewatch DBZ in a way lol.

DB and DBZ I watch yearly depending on my mood....and every year I can appreciate the old Funi dub, the Japanese sub, Faulconer score or the Kikuchi score. I used to be a sub only kind of guy but learned to embrace the version that was presented to us at the time making the series blow up in the 2000. I think my love for DB and DBZ have still stayed the same however I have much more perspective on better more mature media. I love DB for what it is and for what it has done but know its no master piece. Like any long running media it has it's high point but some low points. I've been rewatching DBZ with my nephew and its been a joy, he loves it! If he has interested in Super afterwards then i'll give that a go with him. Maybe I'll enjoy it through a kids eyes.

[Saiya6Cit]

First of all, sorry for not reading other replies, I have been extremely busy lately, I just want to participate.
To answer your question:
Has your opinion on any Dragon Ball media changed over the years?

Yes

Since DBS

I am concerned that people who never watched dragon ball, dragon ball Z or dragon ball GT may get the wrong idea on the characters.

I have learned to deal with it and their fans.

Because of DBS Dragon ball became an onverused topic on "gaming" and "anime" websites, having very cheap articles and somethings they would also spread lies. Geekdom 101 shares my feelings, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XmkGGUbw9M

[super michael]

My opinion hasn't changed, I find Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, GT and Dragon Ball Super Manga enjoyable. I enjoy the movies, ova and games.

However Dragon Ball Super Anime is awful, how some characters are written is pathetic. Toei thinks fans like seeing nagging Chi Chi, brainless Goku and forbidding characters, while pretending they will do useful things, etc.

DBS anime was enjoyable at time, but it was annoying many times.

How characters gained huge power by doing pathetic training was terrible. Freeza beating a weakling, Buu training with Mr Satan, C17 beating normal humans, etc.

Goten and Trunks struggling against a snake and getting battle damage by normal humans was bad.
The humans performing better against Goku, than Gotenks against Copy Vegeta.

The writers had to confirm that the humans are weak than Goten and Trunks.

[ABED]

My opinion hasn't changed, I find Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, GT and Dragon Ball Super Manga enjoyable. I enjoy the movies, ova and games.

However Dragon Ball Super Anime is awful, how some characters are written is pathetic. Toei thinks fans like seeing nagging Chi Chi, brainless Goku and forbidding characters, while pretending they will do useful things, etc.

DBS anime was enjoyable at time, but it was annoying many times.

How characters gained huge power by doing pathetic training was terrible. Freeza beating a weakling, Buu training with Mr Satan, C17 beating normal humans, etc.

Goten and Trunks struggling against a snake and getting battle damage by normal humans was bad.
The humans performing better against Goku, than Gotenks against Copy Vegeta.

The writers had to confirm that the humans are weak than Goten and Trunks.

Your opinion on Super hasn't changed. You've said this plenty of places. This isn't the place for yet another Super bashing unless you liked it then had a change of mind.

[super michael]

My opinion hasn't changed, I find Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, GT and Dragon Ball Super Manga enjoyable. I enjoy the movies, ova and games.

However Dragon Ball Super Anime is awful, how some characters are written is pathetic. Toei thinks fans like seeing nagging Chi Chi, brainless Goku and forbidding characters, while pretending they will do useful things, etc.

DBS anime was enjoyable at time, but it was annoying many times.

How characters gained huge power by doing pathetic training was terrible. Freeza beating a weakling, Buu training with Mr Satan, C17 beating normal humans, etc.

Goten and Trunks struggling against a snake and getting battle damage by normal humans was bad.
The humans performing better against Goku, than Gotenks against Copy Vegeta.

The writers had to confirm that the humans are weak than Goten and Trunks.

Your opinion on Super hasn't changed. You've said this plenty of places. This isn't the place for yet another Super bashing unless you liked it then had a change of mind.

I am allowed to state that I don't like DBS anime, the question is if a user has changed their opinion. My answer is no.

However what I think of DBS anime, doesn't affect my enjoyment on other Dragon Ball anime, manga, ova, movie, games, etc.


Toei think garbage writing is acceptable.