Has your opinion on any Dragon Ball media changed over the years?

[MasenkoHA]

. Conversely, I think the Red Ribbon Army arc is one of the best narratives in all of Dragon Ball and has aged incredibly well.
L

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's one of the best but I do appreciate that the Red Ribbon Army arc is the most Dragon Ball arc of all of Dragon Ball.

Goku taking center stage and kicking ass! Adventure! Action! Low brow gags! Neferarious villains! The quest to becoming stronger!

[ABED]

My opinion of the Daimao arc has deteriorated.

Would you mind elaborating?

I don't mind that it's a retread of the RRA arc, I just find it underwhelming compared to the future action-oriented arcs in the series. Daimao doesn't particularly stand out himself. Besides his old age that gets solved quickly enough, he doesn't have quite enough to offer as a character, he's missing a special quirk that made future villains memorable.

I also don't find Yajirobe's introduction particularly well executed considering at this point in the series we should be well beyond the idea that we can just find random humans as strong as Goku, when he's already stronger than Karin and Roshi himself and effectively the strongest man on Earth.

I like the action setpiece with the one-handed Kamehameha at the end and everything surrounding Roshi and Ten's character arcs, though.

I'm at a loss for how it's a retread of all things the Red Ribbon Army arc. There are similarities to the Tao Pai Pai episodes, but that's where it ends. And Piccolo Daimao is a landmark character for the series. How much longer would you like his old age to go on so it isn't "solved quickly enough"?

Yajirobe is shown to be strong, but not as strong as Goku. Do you find the character interesting or is this a whole power level issue?

It's just a clusterfuck of a narrative that falls apart if you think about it for more than 30 seconds.

That's every time travel story that's ever existed. Unless that's not what you're referring to.

[Koitsukai]

The manga ToP is also something I didn't enjoy at first, but I do now. I still find it somewhat lackluster here and there, the final showdown is not getting anything but an "oh nice" out of me, but the Roshi situation isn't a problem anymore, and UI failing works if the story doesn't end there.
It's also much easier to sit through than the anime's that has like +20 episodes I can't really watch anymore.

And filler episodes as a whole, I now enjoy much more some dumb little episode that's not doing anything for the story and perhaps not even doing much for the characters, but hey, it's like hanging out with friends even though you're not going anywhere or even doing anything in particular.
10 or 20 years ago, I'd skip them altogether and go straight to the brawls. The exception would be some DBS "filler" episodes but I do enjoy some of them. And fake Namek, that's the only old filler episode I do not watch, but I even like Garlic Jr's arc nowadays. I guess since I've never been too fond of those, they have a fresh new vibe to me, while I've seen Freeza pound Goku way too many times.

[Yuji]

Would you mind elaborating?

I don't mind that it's a retread of the RRA arc, I just find it underwhelming compared to the future action-oriented arcs in the series. Daimao doesn't particularly stand out himself. Besides his old age that gets solved quickly enough, he doesn't have quite enough to offer as a character, he's missing a special quirk that made future villains memorable.

I also don't find Yajirobe's introduction particularly well executed considering at this point in the series we should be well beyond the idea that we can just find random humans as strong as Goku, when he's already stronger than Karin and Roshi himself and effectively the strongest man on Earth.

I like the action setpiece with the one-handed Kamehameha at the end and everything surrounding Roshi and Ten's character arcs, though.

I'm at a loss for how it's a retread of all things the Red Ribbon Army arc. There are similarities to the Tao Pai Pai episodes, but that's where it ends. And Piccolo Daimao is a landmark character for the series. How much longer would you like his old age to go on so it isn't "solved quickly enough"?

Yajirobe is shown to be strong, but not as strong as Goku. Do you find the character interesting or is this a whole power level issue?

It's just a clusterfuck of a narrative that falls apart if you think about it for more than 30 seconds.

That's every time travel story that's ever existed. Unless that's not what you're referring to.

I think the structure is very similar to the Tao Pai Pai section as other users have pointed out, but like I said it doesn't bother me.

Being a landmark character doesn't mean he's very interesting. I think Jr., Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Boo all had more going for their characters and, despite all being similar megalomaniacal supervillains, had one or two unique character quirks or traits that left an impact - for example, Freeza's businessman-like posture, or Boo's childlike nature, Cell's cunning, etc. What does Daimao have that separates him from the rest? The old age was an interesting gimmick but the character barely remains in that form for a third of the arc.

I don't think Yajirobe's a particularly interesting character - and I find his utilization in the Saiyan arc far more interesting - but I don't like how you can dismiss powerlevel concerns as if they aren't valid and an important part of making the world and story believable. Yajirobe is just a random wildling - not someone who's been shown to have particularly great potential like Freeza, Broly or Gohan, nor someone who's been shown to be very competent and diligent in his training - who's coincidentally stronger than hundred year old sages like Karin and Roshi. That's just not powerlevel nonsense, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

[kemuri07]

Yeah definitely cannot agree that the King Piccolo arc is a retread, especially considering the context of it being the moment where things start veering closer to DBZ's tone.

[MasenkoHA]

[. What does Daimao have that separates him from the rest? The old age was an interesting gimmick but the character barely remains in that form for a third of the arc. .

He's a theatrical motherfucker, so there's that.

He goes on global television to announce himself ruler of the world and that crime is legal and justice is illegal and May 9th is Piccolo Day and for the next 43 years he'll hold a lottery on May 9th to decimate a sector of the world.

Yeah Cell pulls a similar stunt announcing the Cell games but where the hell do you think Cell got it from?


Then when he's reborn as his son he decides to take his revenge on Goku through the Tenkaichi Budokai. There's no reason for him to do this he just wants to enjoy crushing a martial artist at the very place they go to test their skill. "No matter how far you think you've come I'm gonna prove I'm better than you and then I will kill you"

Oh and less we forget he puts Gohan in the Turtle Hermit gi with the Ma kanji. "You might be your father's son, but you're my disciple and I will craft you in my image"

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The best things the Cell arc has going for it are the titular villains neat insect-like design and the ending, which has that feeling of payoff.

Dragon Ball Z is a fun show to watch because of these payoffs (everyone working together to get Oozaru Vegeta hit by Genki Dama when all hope seemed lost, Goku miraculously defeating Freeza and escaping Namek in 5 minutes, Kid Boo's defeat being thanks to the help of everyone on Earth, etc), some of them feel earned, others don't, but it's that feeling of relief and satisfaction these moments give that people tend to prefer it as a show to original Dragon Ball or GT.

When you take away moments like Gohan unleashing his rage on the Cell Juniors and Goku assisting him with the Father-Son Kamehameha the Cell arc doesn't have much to offer in terms of amazing storytelling. I don't hate it, but it was a step down from all the previous arcs.

[ABED]

but I don't like how you can dismiss powerlevel concerns as if they aren't valid and an important part of making the world and story believable. Yajirobe is just a random wildling - not someone who's been shown to have particularly great potential like Freeza, Broly or Gohan, nor someone who's been shown to be very competent and diligent in his training - who's coincidentally stronger than hundred year old sages like Karin and Roshi. That's just not powerlevel nonsense, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Because power levels aren't interesting to me, nor are they ever shown to be consistent. We're supposed to be amazed at feats of power like the ability to destroy a planet, but we're shown that as early as the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai when Muten Roshi is able to destroy the moon! It's storytelling, not an RPG. Yajirobe isn't shown to be Goku's equal. He's strong, and helpful at times, but he's not shown to be Goku's equal. Why do you keep claiming he's as strong as Karin and Muten Roshi? How does he demonstrate that?

The purpose power levels serve is to show that the Saiyans and Freeza's men only have a mechanical grasp on the concept of ki, not the fuller spiritual side. That's an opinion of mind that's changed over the years. I cared way too much about the RPG like adherence to rules and not enough on things like themes, catharsis, story vs. plot, and set ups and payoffs.

Another opinion of mind that's changed is regarding filler. I didn't mind it when I first watched DBZ, then I read peoples opinions and let that influence me far too much. I've said on places including here that stories should be well integrated and only be as long as they need to be. I think that was a mistake. Those are dogmatic rules and place too much emphasis on plot. After nearly 2 decades of episode orders getting shorter and shows becoming more serialized, I see the limitations of that structure as well. Now I take things as they are, and as long as I enjoy them, I don't care as much if things stay "on plot". Some filler is great, and some "canon" is boring.

[Lord Beerus]

It's just a clusterfuck of a narrative that falls apart if you think about it for more than 30 seconds.

That's every time travel story that's ever existed. Unless that's not what you're referring to.

There are several time travel stories that utilize the concepts of time travel very well with no issues. But, yeah, the use of time travel in the Cell arc was terribly written.

The other major issues I had with the Cell arc that made it a nightmare narratively were:

- The justification for Bulma and Vegeta having Trunks
- How Goku escaped Namek
- Vegeta being insufferable (and not the interesting and/or intriguing kind either)
- The handling of Gohan's character
- Everything the Cyborgs represent conceptually and narratively
- The final battle against Cell
- The handling of the supporting cast

[ABED]

It's just a clusterfuck of a narrative that falls apart if you think about it for more than 30 seconds.

That's every time travel story that's ever existed. Unless that's not what you're referring to.

There are several time travel stories that utilize the concepts of time travel very well with no issues. But, yeah, the use of time travel in the Cell arc was terribly written.

The other major issues I had with the Cell arc that made it a nightmare narratively were:

- The justification for Bulma and Vegeta having Trunks
- How Goku escaped Namek
- Vegeta being insufferable (and not the interesting and/or intriguing kind either)
- The handling of Gohan's character
- Everything the Cyborgs represent conceptually and narratively
- The final battle against Cell
- The handling of the supporting cast

Ones where they go back to the past? Such as?

I agree with the rest of the stuff you mentioned, though I don't know what you mean by what the cyborgs "represent conceptually or narratively".

I used to love Gohan turning Super Saiyan 2. While I still enjoy it, the music and Nozawa's scream does a LOT of the heavy lifting. It's not this great catharsis to Gohan's arc.

[Yuji]

[. What does Daimao have that separates him from the rest? The old age was an interesting gimmick but the character barely remains in that form for a third of the arc. .

He's a theatrical motherfucker, so there's that.

He goes on global television to announce himself ruler of the world and that crime is legal and justice is illegal and May 9th is Piccolo Day and for the next 43 years he'll hold a lottery on May 9th to decimate a sector of the world.

Yeah Cell pulls a similar stunt announcing the Cell games but where the hell do you think Cell got it from?


Then when he's reborn as his son he decides to take his revenge on Goku through the Tenkaichi Budokai. There's no reason for him to do this he just wants to enjoy crushing a martial artist at the very place they go to test their skill. "No matter how far you think you've come I'm gonna prove I'm better than you and then I will kill you"

Oh and less we forget he puts Gohan in the Turtle Hermit gi with the Ma kanji. "You might be your father's son, but you're my disciple and I will craft you in my image"

Daimao gets some points for being the original but I think Cell does the global announcement thing better. Junior is a different character entirely, I don't think anyone disputes Piccolo Jr. is a good and compelling character.

Yajirobe isn't shown to be Goku's equal. He's strong, and helpful at times, but he's not shown to be Goku's equal. Why do you keep claiming he's as strong as Karin and Muten Roshi? How does he demonstrate that?

Goku literally says Yajirobe is as strong as him, and Yajirobe handles a demon with ease. Goku at this point is stronger than Roshi and Karin, so is Yajirobe.

[MasenkoHA]

[. What does Daimao have that separates him from the rest? The old age was an interesting gimmick but the character barely remains in that form for a third of the arc. .

He's a theatrical motherfucker, so there's that.

He goes on global television to announce himself ruler of the world and that crime is legal and justice is illegal and May 9th is Piccolo Day and for the next 43 years he'll hold a lottery on May 9th to decimate a sector of the world.

Yeah Cell pulls a similar stunt announcing the Cell games but where the hell do you think Cell got it from?


Then when he's reborn as his son he decides to take his revenge on Goku through the Tenkaichi Budokai. There's no reason for him to do this he just wants to enjoy crushing a martial artist at the very place they go to test their skill. "No matter how far you think you've come I'm gonna prove I'm better than you and then I will kill you"

Oh and less we forget he puts Gohan in the Turtle Hermit gi with the Ma kanji. "You might be your father's son, but you're my disciple and I will craft you in my image"

Daimao gets some points for being the original but I think Cell does the global announcement thing better. Junior is a different character entirely, I don't think anyone disputes Piccolo Jr. is a good and compelling character.

Junior is Daimao just less evil because....reasons (something to do with Daimao rebirthing himself as a warrior Namekian instead of a mazoku I guess?) and then later going through character development

Junior being a theatrical villain who needs to make a big show of his villainy is just an extension of Daimao being the exact same way.

[Yuji]

He's a theatrical motherfucker, so there's that.

He goes on global television to announce himself ruler of the world and that crime is legal and justice is illegal and May 9th is Piccolo Day and for the next 43 years he'll hold a lottery on May 9th to decimate a sector of the world.

Yeah Cell pulls a similar stunt announcing the Cell games but where the hell do you think Cell got it from?


Then when he's reborn as his son he decides to take his revenge on Goku through the Tenkaichi Budokai. There's no reason for him to do this he just wants to enjoy crushing a martial artist at the very place they go to test their skill. "No matter how far you think you've come I'm gonna prove I'm better than you and then I will kill you"

Oh and less we forget he puts Gohan in the Turtle Hermit gi with the Ma kanji. "You might be your father's son, but you're my disciple and I will craft you in my image"

Daimao gets some points for being the original but I think Cell does the global announcement thing better. Junior is a different character entirely, I don't think anyone disputes Piccolo Jr. is a good and compelling character.

Junior is Daimao just less evil because....reasons (something to do with Daimao rebirthing himself as a warrior Namekian instead of a mazoku I guess?) and then later going through character development

Junior being a theatrical villain who needs to make a big show of his villainy is just an extension of Daimao being the exact same way.

I disagree. Junior is shown to be his own person multiple times. He refers to Daimao as his parent (at least after the 23rd TB), Daimao refers to him as his son. God and Popo treat Junior as a different entity multiple times throughout the series. This is present not only in the manga but in anime filler too where the distinction is made even clearer. It goes beyond mere reincarnation. Like Oob is Boo reborn but they're not the same character.

[ABED]

Junior both is and isn't his own entity. He is the reincarnation and the son of Piccolo Daimao. There's plenty of dialog to support him being his own person as well as him being the same character.

Goku literally says Yajirobe is as strong as him, and Yajirobe handles a demon with ease.

Goku also handles a demon with ease. That's not proof that they're the same level. All we know is they are both stronger than Piccolo's children. Even if he says it, we aren't shown anything conclusive. And so what if he is? Why is it such a dealbreaker that someone from such a big world is as strong as Goku? Why do we buy some things and not others? Piccolo and the others are able to much these GIGANTIC leaps in their battle power in time for the Saiyans after only a year. They made greater gains in 1 year than in their entire lives previously. If your issue were with his personality, I'd get it, but your issue isn't with story, it's a problem with rules that are fairly arbitrary to begin with. What about his personality, his friendship with Goku, or his moments of bravery? I love when he cuts Vegeta's tail off as well, but what about him catching Goku and stopping him from falling to his death?

For a long time, I thought as many do about "willing suspension of disbelief" and the "rules" of a particular world needing to be consistent but after so many examples of not just DB, but other stories that I love having inconsistent rules, I came to the conclusion that it's nice when they are consistent, it's not imperative that they are. That said, it still bothers me that one of Freeza's henchmen in RoF was stated to be around Zarbon's strength, and it's seen as a big deal in comparison to Piccolo.

Anyway, I think I've exhausted the subjects of Yajirobe and Piccolo Daimao.

[MasenkoHA]

I disagree. Junior is shown to be his own person multiple times. He refers to Daimao as his parent (at least after the 23rd TB), Daimao refers to him as his son. God and Popo treat Junior as a different entity multiple times throughout the series. This is present not only in the manga but in anime filler too where the distinction is made even clearer. It goes beyond mere reincarnation. Like Oob is Boo reborn but they're not the same character.

Boo went through the standard cycle of going to hell, having his soul cleansed and his memories wiped and reborn into a new life (Oob)

Daimao did not die. If he had died so would Kami since they're two halves of the same Namekian. He transferred his essence and memories into the last egg he spat out. The son is the father.

Kami and Popo acknowledged that Piccolo has changed but he's still treated as Daimao. They still acknowledge that Junior is the other half of Kami, which wouldn’t be the case at all if Junior was simply just Daimao's spawn.

Abed's Angel/Angelus comparison is apt because Junior is just Daimao with a soul. He's evil but not a true mazoku anymore (despite referring to himself as such, being identified as one by one of Slug's men and saying he'll make Gohan one too)and was capable of becoming good.


At any rate I wasn't using Junior's character development in favor of the Daimao incarnation's characterization, I was just pointing out the guy who tried to kill Goku at a tournament to make a spectacle out of it and put his own crest on the duplicate of Goku's gi that he gave Goku's son is just further examples of the over the top theatrics Piccolo does as a villain, which also includes announcing himself ruler of the earth and he was going to blow up a sector of the earth every May 9th for the next 43 years

[Zephyr]

I used to be a dubbie, but nowadays I don't think I could think any lower of Funimation's work. I also used to exclusively watch the anime, having no interest in reading the manga, but now I re-read the manga more than I re-watch the anime.

---

When I was younger (and a dubbie) I really loved the Cell arc for how 'badass' it was, and all that, but I later found it to be the lowpoint of the entire story. Now, however, I've come to appreciate it a lot more.

I enjoy how the quest to improve the Super Saiyan state has Goku finally begin to dip his toes into being a martial arts teacher. He and Vegeta are effectively the "heads" of their own "schools", competing to see whose "school", and means of improving the Super Saiyan state (as lived out vicariously through their sons, who take their respective father's methods to their heights), can defeat Cell. Varying shades of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, Piccolo Daimao, and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arcs in there.

It's still definitely among the most clumsily executed arcs in the original story (if not the most), and these threads I pick up on only manifest in the back half (and even then, aren't as prominent and explicit as I'd like), but every re-read of it I still end up really digging the above-described aspects.

[JulieYBM]

I used to be a fan of the dub. I grew up on it and stuck around with it through the early days of Dragon Ball Kai for the hell of it but I think it was there that I came to find that I was simply not the target audience for that sort of thing anymore. I watch stuff in their original language only now and it was in 2010 when I finally made that full switch over across all media. I don't think it's really any of my business to care about a dub or if one exclusively follows it for their fandom experience, either. I try to have a far more laidback and relaxed attitude about that sort of thing the older I get.

[ABED]

these threads I pick up on only manifest in the back half (and even then, aren't as prominent and explicit as I'd like),

If you've got third act problems, you have first act problems.

[Majin Buu]

The best things the Cell arc has going for it are the titular villains neat insect-like design and the ending, which has that feeling of payoff.

Agreed on Cell's design being a selling point. He was my favorite villain when I first saw the Cell arc, and in hindsight it was because I thought he looked cool. Nowadays I still think his appearance is well designed (even his unappealing 2nd form at least makes sense as the halfway point of his evolution), but as a character I now find him the most bland and generic of the original series' big bads. When I grew out of that superficial mindset and began analyzing the media I consume more critically, I realized that Cell's characterization was lacking compared to the likes of Freeza or Buu or even Daimao.

[The gr]

I've really grown to hate to outright indifference to dbs anime and especially the manga god never before I seen a manga so mediocre, can't believe I used to be so into to this to the point I defended this mess