Has your opinion on any Dragon Ball media changed over the years?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I enjoyed Super on my initial watch, but I'm finding it a chore to get through it a 2nd time. I'm not sure what it is, but I found the retellings much more boring this time, and have now lost the motivation to continue. I know it gets better eventually, it's just such a drag getting to that point.

Honestly I think the constant humour just undermines any tension in the story. The thing with everyone being afraid of Beerus and the constant obsession with food is played out to the point of being tedious.

I'm all for comedy when it feels natural and balances out the serious stuff. I actually love the Buu saga, because the comedy is genuinely funny while never completely exclipsing the tension. Buu always feels like a genuine threat, and manages to be both funny and terrifying at the same time.

I used to prefer Super to GT, but now I'm not so sure. I enjoyed my recent GT rewatch quite a bit despite having seen it about 8 times.

With Super I think the novelty of new Dragon Ball wears off after a while. I was all about Super when it first watched, and was for some time. I'm the kind of guy that looked at Dragon Ball AF images and supposed episode listings on myfavouritegames.com back in 2005 longing for new Dragon Ball content. When Super was announced and came out it felt like my wish had been granted, I could finally watch a current Dragon Ball series as I did when I was a kid (or at least thought I did as I didn't know when it was on the air in Ireland we got the series so much later than Japan) and follow along. I can still enjoy Super for what it is, and I will always be thankful for the show as it introduced me to the Japanese cast, but ultimately it is a step down from what came before.

As for GT, I think it has become a lot easier to like since Super, as the latter gave a lot of us what we thought we wanted and didn't get from the former, like the over-the-top fights, Vegeta wanting to surpass Goku, and all the characters we know and love taking part in the action (hell even Master Roshi), but when you have it, it all feels like superficial stuff. GT was an experimental show, it took risks, some worked and some didn't, but we can give TOEI credit for trying to do something unique and different with the storytelling, which is more than they've done for Super.

[dva_raza]

And speaking of Super Saiyan, remember how Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan had to bust their asses and undergo intensely negative emotions in order to pull it off? Goten and Trunks can just do it. They don't even know what it's called. Hell, Goten doesn't even know how to fly and he can do it.

Dragon Ball respects nothing.

Makes total sense to me. Kids are born with their parent's talents asimilated and with more potential or facility. Gohan also got Super Saiyan way younger that when Goku did. So for Goten it was even earlier and easier.

[jjgp1112]

And speaking of Super Saiyan, remember how Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan had to bust their asses and undergo intensely negative emotions in order to pull it off? Goten and Trunks can just do it. They don't even know what it's called. Hell, Goten doesn't even know how to fly and he can do it.

Dragon Ball respects nothing.

Makes total sense to me. Kids are born with their parent's talents asimilated and with more potential or facility. Gohan also got Super Saiyan way younger that when Goku did. So for Goten it was even earlier and easier.

Whether it made "logical" sense wasn't part of my point, and I'm not really criticizing it anyway.

EditL What ABED said below

[ABED]

The point isn't that it's not possible, but the reason for Toriyama doing it were 2 fold -
1) for the sake of the plot, they need to be stronger.
2) to take the piss out of the importance of Super Saiyan.

[dva_raza]

And speaking of Super Saiyan, remember how Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan had to bust their asses and undergo intensely negative emotions in order to pull it off? Goten and Trunks can just do it. They don't even know what it's called. Hell, Goten doesn't even know how to fly and he can do it.

Dragon Ball respects nothing.

Makes total sense to me. Kids are born with their parent's talents asimilated and with more potential or facility. Gohan also got Super Saiyan way younger that when Goku did. So for Goten it was even earlier and easier.

Whether it made "logical" sense wasn't part of my point, and I'm not really criticizing it anyway.

EditL What ABED said below

I totally misunderstood whatever you meant with "Dragon Ball respects nothing" then.

The point isn't that it's not possible, but the reason for Toriyama doing it were 2 fold -
1) for the sake of the plot, they need to be stronger.
2) to take the piss out of the importance of Super Saiyan.

Number 1 yeah sure, and it's a non sequitur to the fact that it also makes logical sense.
Which kinda disqualifies #2 (in fact I'm not sure how you can assess that there was an intention to "take the piss out of the importance" of SS at all)

[MasenkoHA]

(in fact I'm not sure how you can assess that there was an intention to "take the piss out of the importance" of SS at all)

When Super Saiyan was introduced it was treated as this legendary thing that only happens once every hundred years.

Even when Gohan, Vegeta, and Future Trunks all obtain it later on we see the mental and emotional anguish they had to go through to achieve it.


And then the two little rugrats just turn Super Saiyan for funsies to the complete disbelief of Gohan and Vegeta.


It's absolutely taking the piss out of the importance of Super Saiyan. Neither Abed or Jjgp are framing it as a bad thing by the way. That's just what it is.

[Koitsukai]

GT, I always loved it, when it came out I was GT's number 1 fan, even had a fan website that took my entire summer to create. All my artwork was about GT, SS4, Ohzaru Baby, Ih Shenron, even preferring GT over Z, probably due to it being the "on-going" continuation. I guess, I couldn't see flaws to the show, GT could do no wrong, like Toriyama for some people.
But then, 10 years later, a rewatch, and man was I disappointed. The fights were boring, like going to church, so now it's like I wanted most of them to be over; the other characters were never there and when they did, it would not be for long enough...
I still enjoy GT, but the veil was lifted from my eyes, it went from my, by far, preferred series to a flawed series I now only enjoy.

DBS suffered something like that, too. I was really excited during its run, but it's harder for me to sit through Toei's bullshit between each arc. And it gets worse as the show keeps going, (Barry Khan's, Roshi's, Tenshinhan's episodes...). Some are really good, Arale's, Hit's rematch, Vegeta taking Trunks to the park like he promised in the Buu arc, but I'd rather watch youtube clips by now.

Also, like so many others, the pre-Raditz part of the show was always on the back burner for me, mostly because I was too much into the flashy part of the franchise, aliens and superpowers.
Same goes for the pre-SS movies. I hated all the black-haired Goku movies because well, where are the super powers? where's the aliens? where's Vegeta? Trunks? why Yamcha, Roshi and fucking Puar coming along?
But now, I adore those movies, even more so than every Z Broly movie and most of the SS movies.

The LSS concept also, in Z I never really liked it, and I mean Broly, not Goku or Vegeta, etc. But come Toriyama's Broly and I can't get enough of the LSS.

[dva_raza]

When Super Saiyan was introduced it was treated as this legendary thing that only happens once every hundred years.

Even when Gohan, Vegeta, and Future Trunks all obtain it later on we see the mental and emotional anguish they had to go through to achieve it.


And then the two little rugrats just turn Super Saiyan for funsies to the complete disbelief of Gohan and Vegeta.


It's absolutely taking the piss out of the importance of Super Saiyan. Neither Abed or Jjgp are framing it as a bad thing by the way. That's just what it is.

..I wasn't saying they are.

I was saying that I don't think the way SS progressed in universe is due to the importance of what had been established conceptually being lost. To me it was a conscious intent because it makes logical sense.

Trunks and Goten didn't turn for the funsies. They had more facility for it just as Gohan had more potential than Goku.

More like the only hadwave I see is them adjusting its concept for Vegeta to obtain it but that's all.

[ABED]

When I say he's doing it for the sake of the plot, I mean he wasn't making any attempt to logically explain it beyond they have Saiyan blood. He doesn't try to add something to the lore, nor does he give us any explanation about the law of inherited traits. He just says that they have Saiyan blood and has Vegeta say "It's a Super Saiyan bargain sale." He's wise to do so as I don't think the audience needs much exposition. Toriyama isn't the type or writer to put that much effort into his world building or exposition. Dragon Ball is a VERY simple story with usually simple plots. He wisely doesn't overthink these things by bending over backwards for explanations that the audience doesn't need.

Toriyama took the story in more serious directions at certain points, but he never lost his sense of whimsy. Just look at the name of his villains

Piccolo - an instrument
Vegeta - Vegetable
Cell - on the nose because he's made up of the cells of powerful fighters
Freeza - freezer
Buu - he and his creator and the creator's son are named after a Disney song.

This simple fact that took me a long time to realize is why I don't take DB nearly as seriously anymore, even the stuff that is dark and serious, since even plenty of kids stories have darker elements in them.

My other opinion that has changed is that the Ocean dub is great, not the best version of the dub, but great all its own.

And I don't know if this counts, but when Super first came out, I didn't watch it until 2020. By then I had already grown tired of revivals and a lot of the things people were saying sounded silly to me. Then I watched it for myself and quite enjoyed it. I get its flaws and while I would prefer the story to end, I find it perfectly enjoyable, more so than GT.

[dva_raza]

When I say he's doing it for the sake of the plot, I mean he wasn't making any attempt to logically explain it beyond they have Saiyan blood. He doesn't try to add something to the lore, nor does he give us any explanation about the law of inherited traits.

But I never said that he was. I also don't see why you'd need lore or built exposition for the notion of the kids inheriting their parents' talents to land lol. Seems too basic. What I’m saying is neither a headcanon nor something I need him to spell out.

Gohan factually transforming younger than what Goku was works for me.

Kids are just born with more potential than their parents, that idea is logically consistent in universe. (Yes, independently from it also being needed for the plot at that moment).
Basically in was organic: logic and need met. Is all I was saying.

[ABED]

To keep this from happening again, we're both in agreement, he wasn't trying to build more lore or explain anything because it was a simple explanation, but that isn't the point. Toriyama isn't the kind of author who would care about this sort of issue. He didn't care about the logic beyond the need for both kids to be Saiyans, as opposed to Earthlings. They had Saiyan blood so they could become Super Saiyans. That's the only criterion they had to meet to fulfill their role in his story.

He didn't go as far as to say they were Saiyan kids so naturally they were stronger. He did that once in the Saiyan arc and even then I think it wasn't necessary. Why are Goten and Trunks even stronger than Gohan at their age? Because the plot needs them to be. Does the audience care? Not really, so let's undercut it with a joke about it being a Super Saiyan "bargain sale".

I'm done on this particular subject unless you have a question.

[dva_raza]

.. again I am fully aware Toriyama doesn’t go out of his way to explain or connect things he establishes. What I don't know is what that has to do with anything or how you think that's conflicting with the notion that an idea that literally take less than a second for a person to click in their mind happened.

Something like:
“..and now Trunks and Goten also have SS of course, as they were born with triple potential than the double potential Gohan had over his dad.”
That’s not Toriyama creating lore or sitting down to work on a deep explanation. Is what I'm saying.

And if what you mean to say is even THAT’S too much for Toriyama, that’s ..absurd lol. He’s not brainless or something. He’s just forgetful and detached.
Point being, the affirmation some of you made that that it strictly had to be “..and now Trunks and Goten also have SS CUZ –(emptiness)--.” is just your assumption. And not one that makes much sense to me to be honest, given that the idea is not elaborate in the least.

Hope that was clearer.

[ABED]

For a while I thought the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai was only so-so. I'm not sure exactly why. My opinion changed about 10 years ago.

[jjgp1112]

When Super Saiyan was introduced it was treated as this legendary thing that only happens once every hundred years.

Even when Gohan, Vegeta, and Future Trunks all obtain it later on we see the mental and emotional anguish they had to go through to achieve it.


And then the two little rugrats just turn Super Saiyan for funsies to the complete disbelief of Gohan and Vegeta.


It's absolutely taking the piss out of the importance of Super Saiyan. Neither Abed or Jjgp are framing it as a bad thing by the way. That's just what it is.

..I wasn't saying they are.

I was saying that I don't think the way SS progressed in universe is due to the importance of what had been established conceptually being lost. To me it was a conscious intent because it makes logical sense.

Trunks and Goten didn't turn for the funsies. They had more facility for it just as Gohan had more potential than Goku.

More like the only hadwave I see is them adjusting its concept for Vegeta to obtain it but that's all.

I don't think you're understanding us.

Yes, logically that all makes sense and everything. But in the context of the story, going from Goku et al having to go through the ringer mentally, physically, and emotionally to achieve Super Saiyan, only for two little brats to do it on command as their little plaything cuz genetics does cheapen the form narratively speaking. But it's cool because the story acknowledges that and makes it the joke. It's not about whether it makes sense, it's about how it waters down the significance.

[Cursed Lemon]

Frankly? No.

Still feel the whole Freeza saga (especially the saiyan arc) is peak Dragonball. Still only really watch Path to Power, World's Strongest, Tree of Might, Broly, Janemba, and Super Broly when it comes to movies. Still hate GT. Most of Super isn't worth rewatching. Never really played any of the games.

[Yuji]

My opinion of the Boo arc has greatly increased over the years as I've gone out of my pretentious phase. The Cell arc too.

My opinion of the Daimao arc has deteriorated. My opinion of the 22nd TB has improved - I used to think it was the worst of the 3 tournaments, now it's in the middle and a very solid story.

I used to hate the ToP but can now appreciate what it was going for especially in the manga.

[ABED]

My opinion of the Daimao arc has deteriorated.

Would you mind elaborating?

[Yuji]

My opinion of the Daimao arc has deteriorated.

Would you mind elaborating?

I don't mind that it's a retread of the RRA arc, I just find it underwhelming compared to the future action-oriented arcs in the series. Daimao doesn't particularly stand out himself. Besides his old age that gets solved quickly enough, he doesn't have quite enough to offer as a character, he's missing a special quirk that made future villains memorable.

I also don't find Yajirobe's introduction particularly well executed considering at this point in the series we should be well beyond the idea that we can just find random humans as strong as Goku, when he's already stronger than Karin and Roshi himself and effectively the strongest man on Earth.

I like the action setpiece with the one-handed Kamehameha at the end and everything surrounding Roshi and Ten's character arcs, though.

[Lord Beerus]

I've grown to hate the Cell arc over the years of re-reading and re-watching the series. It's just a clusterfuck of a narrative that falls apart if you think about it for more than 30 seconds.

I think the King Piccolo arc is dogshit and one of the low points of the entire manga. Conversely, I think the Red Ribbon Army arc is one of the best narratives in all of Dragon Ball and has aged incredibly well.

I've gone from indifferent regarding the 22nd Budokai Tenckaichi arc, to absolutely loving it, and I think Tenshinhan's character arc in that tournament is one of the best Dragon Ball has ever produced.

My appreciation for GT has shot up exponentially from my initial viewing many years back. I really like what it was going for most of the time, even if it didn't always work.

I don't like Super (in general) as much as I used to.

[Koitsukai]

When Super Saiyan was introduced it was treated as this legendary thing that only happens once every hundred years.

Even when Gohan, Vegeta, and Future Trunks all obtain it later on we see the mental and emotional anguish they had to go through to achieve it.


And then the two little rugrats just turn Super Saiyan for funsies to the complete disbelief of Gohan and Vegeta.


It's absolutely taking the piss out of the importance of Super Saiyan. Neither Abed or Jjgp are framing it as a bad thing by the way. That's just what it is.

..I wasn't saying they are.

I was saying that I don't think the way SS progressed in universe is due to the importance of what had been established conceptually being lost. To me it was a conscious intent because it makes logical sense.

Trunks and Goten didn't turn for the funsies. They had more facility for it just as Gohan had more potential than Goku.

More like the only hadwave I see is them adjusting its concept for Vegeta to obtain it but that's all.

I don't think you're understanding us.

Yes, logically that all makes sense and everything. But in the context of the story, going from Goku et al having to go through the ringer mentally, physically, and emotionally to achieve Super Saiyan, only for two little brats to do it on command as their little plaything cuz genetics does cheapen the form narratively speaking. But it's cool because the story acknowledges that and makes it the joke. It's not about whether it makes sense, it's about how it waters down the significance.

And it doesn't stop at Z either, in DBS you have the tingling back for the unrelated saiyans.