I feel bad but god, Gowasu was really blind.

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Femme Fatale Kikaza
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I feel bad but god, Gowasu was really blind.

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:46 pm

Gowasu is easy to sympathize with but god, Zamasu was a huge blind spot when the guy was still alive. While it's not his fault that Zamasu did the acts he did, his inablity to recognize Zamasu's nature is quite alarming looking back on it,espically when you see his way of dealing with Zamasu's concerns was completly ineffective and negligent.

Given Zamasu was under Gowasu for thousands of years, he's clearly had plently of time to give foundation to his ideals and whilst Gowasu was trying to streer him in the right direction it was too little and too late. It doesn't help that from what we see of Gowasu and Zamasu's conversations, Gowasu was kind of just giving Zamasu non-anwsers and failing to correct his beliefs when Zamasu challenged him with his ideals, only saying 'it's not our job to intervene', which clearly doesn't satisfy Zamasu. Not only does this dodge the question, but it basically just adds fuel to the fire as Zamasu believed the gods were lazy for not interfering.

He basically skirted around the issue until the pot boiled over into a volcanic mess. By the time he saw what Zamasu was truly capable of, Zamasu was already off the deep end and had to be put down before he could cause problems. Gowasu was kind, and I feel bad since he clearly cared for Zamasu, but god it's obvious looking back how badly he fumbled the ball with him,espically later on.

Like Zamasu was outright talking about mortal genocide over tea and Gowasu doesn't see this as a red flag to pull the brakes and correct this behaviour, believing Zamasu is still on the right track. He wasn't hiding it, he was outright talking smack about how mortals are a stain on the universe and how it'd be better off without them after their godawful trip to that barbarian planet.

Speaking of which, what was he thinking? Of all the places to show Zamasu, the fucking barbarian planet with BARBARIANS was the best Gowasu could think of to show Zamasu that the mortals aren't all violent? Not to mention he didn't even travel that far into the future, 1,000 years isn't that long when it comes to a civilization, if he took it further it would make sense, but 1,000 years is quite small for improvement, espically in a civilization like this. One of them even attacked them for fuck's sake and that when Zamasu got his first offical kill, not only reaffirming Zamasu's beliefs that 'mortals are violent'. At least show a place with Namekians so this looks believable because it looks like Gowasu just picked a random population without any proper thought of how it'd affect Zamasu's unstable mindset.

I feel bad for him but god, you can tell where he went wrong looking back. Gowasu was a kind yet far too trusting and lenient and wasn't fit to reign in someone like Zamasu. His lectures, while well-meaning, clearly lost whatever effect they once had and instead of tending to Zamasu's behaviour and correcting it, he turns a blind-eye to Zamasu's genocidal language, thinking he'll get better...

As we all know, he did not.
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Re: I feel bad but god, Gowasu was really blind.

Post by Thani » Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:01 pm

Honestly, I get that it's one of those times where we go "hindsight's a bitch", but you're right. Zamasu's red flags couldn't have been redder, and yet Gowasu failed to recognize them and instead gave him really poor advice. It's astonishing how poor mentors the kaioshins make in this series.

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Re: I feel bad but god, Gowasu was really blind.

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:04 pm

I am pretty sure Gowasu being totally oblivious is a part of his character arc. He was incredibly naive to think that Zamasu would turn evil and did the bare minimum (and that is a generous statement) to try and put him back into shape. I believe he had gotten too attached to Zamasu as his mentor to believe his own pupil would become a crazed murderer. Surely he would have known it was possible for a Kai to turn evil, given the whole pep talk with the tea.

In the end, the Gowasu of the current timeline was lucky that Black entered it, for it gave the warning to Goku, Beerus and co. about Zamasu's eventual uprising. At least now, he can repent and redeem himself with this experience.
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Re: I feel bad but god, Gowasu was really blind.

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:34 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:01 pm Honestly, I get that it's one of those times where we go "hindsight's a bitch", but you're right. Zamasu's red flags couldn't have been redder, and yet Gowasu failed to recognize them and instead gave him really poor advice. It's astonishing how poor mentors the kaioshins make in this series.
He wasn't even hiding his disdain. He was outright talking genocide and Gowasu just covers his eyes in front of this obvious display of instability. Zamasu was such a massive blindspot and it's not even funny.
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Re: I feel bad but god, Gowasu was really blind.

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:47 pm

If there was a final scene after the credits, with Gowasu throwing a devilish smile, or the usual anime trope of shiny glasses for evil characters. Everything would've added up just perfectly.

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Re: I feel bad but god, Gowasu was really blind.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:23 pm

Good thread. This is why I think Zamasu and his storyline is some of the best writing in all of Dragon Ball. There is not a clear answer. While Zamasu is obviously the villain who committed unspeakable things, a reasonable approach would be to acknowledge that Gowasu failed too in some areas.

Indeed, Gowasu himself literally concedes that he failed Zamasu. It's the last time he thinks about Zamasu (at the end of the arc). He says something like "I failed you Zamasu", and so this is why this storyline is complex. You have to acknowledge that, while Zamasu was the villain of the story, Gowasu also failed as a teacher and partially blames himself for what happened.
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:46 pm While it's not his fault that Zamasu did the acts he did
Yes it is, it is partly his fault, because he could have shown him ANY planet in the Cosmos. He could have shown him Namek, he could have shown him any planet in U3, he could have shown him any planet in U2... he had plenty of examples that proved mortals could be peaceful, kind, intelligent, beautiful, examples that proved mortals valued peace, beauty, technology, and so on. Instead he showed him literally the worst possible planet imaginable, a planet full of brainless savages, when Zamasu's gripe with mortals derived from the fact that (according to him) they were barbaric. Clearly, showing him Planet Babari was not a good move. He obviously messed up and failed to set Zamasu on the right path.

The problem is that, as Zamasu himself acknowledges, Planet Babari was the final proof he needed to realize that the Cosmos would never have peace so long as mortals existed. Not to mention that it is in Planet Babari that Zamasu killed his first mortal, and after that, he could never stop. So, willingly or not, Gowasu's decision to show Zamasu that planet played a big part in Zamasu's descent into villainy. Not only it was the final proof that mortals were war-like, but it was also the first time Zamasu ever killed a mortal creature.
Gowasu was kind of just giving Zamasu non-anwsers and failing to correct his beliefs when Zamasu challenged him with his ideals, only saying 'it's not our job to intervene', which clearly doesn't satisfy Zamasu. Not only does this dodge the question, but it basically just adds fuel to the fire as Zamasu believed the gods were lazy for not interfering.
Yes. Gowasu failed to address Zamasu's fundamental disagreements with the way the Cosmos works.

Zamasu had a strong sense of justice (Gowasu knew and acknowledged this), so obviously he wanted to personally punish evildoers. What was Gowasu's answer to Zamasu? "Oh we're Kais we're supposed to just watch and do nothing, it's not our job to deal with evildoers."

Even though this is technically right, Gowasu also should have realized that Zamasu would not have been satisfied with this kind of response. If you know that someone has strong feelings about something, you can't just tell them "It's not our place to interfere, so shut up and move on with your day", that's just BS.

If I had been Gowasu:

1) First of all, I wouldn't have shown Zamasu that planet. I would have shown him Planet Namek instead, a planet where mortals are peaceful, kind, wise, and live in harmony with the nature around them and with the Gods. This would have shown Zamasu that there are mortals who do not pursue war and who value the world and the gifts that the Gods gave them.

2) Then I would have avoided telling him "We're Kais, it's not our job to intervene"; because that's just a non-answer that ignores Zamasu's problems with the way the Cosmos is structured (mainly the fact that Gods don't care about mortal wars and that some mortals ended up surpassing the Gods).

And as a side note, let us not forget that Zamasu was working alongside Hearts and his mortal gang in Heroes. In Xenoverse 2, he is literally a training mentor who will teach techniques and work alongside the (mortal) player character. So it's not like Zamasu cannot possibly conceive the idea of working with mortals, if it benefits him somehow or if he thinks some mortals (like the Xenoverse2 player character) are worthy of him.

Would Gowasu turn Zamasu into a softie who loves mortals? No. Could he have shown him that some mortals are worth protecting and that some mortals can be useful to the Gods? Yes.

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Re: I feel bad but god, Gowasu was really blind.

Post by theherodjl » Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:34 pm

As overlooking as he might've been prior to the zero mortal plan was enacted, Gowasu's most clueless moment in the whole situation was when he tried to appeal to Black in giving up his plan and offer him a path at redemption. With how far all of Zamasu's iterations had gone with their plan by that point and the knowledge that he had already been murdered by them in multiple timelines, Gowasu was completely batshit to think that such a tactic would work.
There's Goku-levels of naivety...and then there's Gowasu-levels. :shock:
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Re: I feel bad but god, Gowasu was really blind.

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:36 pm

It's not even that unrealistic that Gowasu was so genre-blind.

We tend to give our loved ones a lot of leniency and excuse their worse tendencies because of how close they are to us, even if we should be putting our foot down.

Gowasu is the same. He didn't think Zamasu could ever go off the deep end, and he likely rationalized all this talk of genocide in his head as simply bad beliefs that'll take a few thousand years to work through. The man had a big heart, but it was too big for his own good and doomed an entire multiverse as a result of his inability to stamp the problem elements out with authority.

Honestly, Gowasu really should've gotten Universe 10's God of Destruction, Rumshi, involved with his teachings of Zamasu. Rumshi may be a blowhard and arrogant, but he'd definitely have reined in Zamasu's bloodlust by reminding him of just whose job it is to wipe out the mortals if need be.

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