Deep Thoughts: Movie 4 and The Garlic Jr. Saga

[ABED]

Lord Slug
Original Title: Super Saiyan Son Goku
While the title is more specific, it has nothing to do with the story. He turns "Super Saiyan" for a few seconds in what is little more than a hope spot right before Slug turns the tide again. Based on the dates, I'm guessing the writers did a best guess on what the form (if there were any) would look like and just gave Super Saiyan a yellow aura.

I don't have much to say other than it's mostly boring. I appreciate the set up and payoff with Piccolo's hearing. I wish that had been used more in the series. Other than that, I don't have anything to add beyond I've tried over the years to come to this movie with fresh eyes hoping I misremembered or thinking there was some aspect of this that was overlooked, but no. It's a boring movie with a boring villain.
The Ultimate DBZ Info Site broke down the DBZ movie formula into something they called "The Six Steps" which were
1. Goku meets incredibly powerful enemy they can't possibly beat because he/she has, "Incredibly overwhelming power"
2. Goku powers up but gets the living crap kicked out of him
3. Goku gets joined by friend/s and start to kick butt
4. Main villain finds power inside him/her that is now forty times better than Goku and his friends' power and they get more crap kicked out of them
5. Goku and everyone get more crap kicked out of them and things look bad
6. Goku has everyone give him their energy and/or he finds an incredible power inside of him that wasn't there an hour ago
I'd like to add a 7th step, which is typically between number 3 and 4 – Piccolo arrives to protect Gohan, and probably get a few good hits in, but gets his ass kicked usually while protecting Gohan.

Garlic Jr. Saga
Like most, I can't say I'm a fan of this arc. I like the idea of an arc centered on other characters not named Goku, as long as it's kept to a minimum. It is Goku's story after all. That said, this is a boring arc, not because it's filler, but because Garlic Jr. isn't an interesting villain. I'm glad his plan wasn't a mere repeat of last time, and the Aquamist turning the world into vampires/demons is a pretty cool ticking clock, but the execution is not all that interesting once the fight between Piccolo and Gohan is done, the fight against Garlic and the Four Monarchs isn't interesting. Garlic ends the arc exactly where the movie ended, in the Dead Zone. It makes sense since how else do you stop an immortal? Probably the most interesting part of the arc is the idea of the spirit of previous Kamis/Gods is in the base of Temple. It feels like it takes too long and in execution, it's uninteresting, but the last part where our Kami stands up to the previous ones is pretty awesome. Hell, they've let him go and our current Kami snaps back at them. It's a risky move but I liked him saying that he may be an alien but he cared more about humans than his human predecessors. I also get the sense that Mr. Popo likes this Kami more than the others, which is sweet.

My favorite part of the Garlic Jr. Saga/arc isn't even technically part of it, it's the episode where Kuririn breaks up with Maron. Poor Kuririn. It's a really sad and un-Dragon Ball story with a SUPER sad ending, but it was refreshingly different. The laugh that's half laugh and half cry is heartbreaking. It was also nice to see how much the supporting characters genuinely care about each other, including Umigame.

Filler:
It figures that even the filler arc has filler!
You either create story points that get contradicted later or you dance between the raindrops. Vegeta's story doesn't go anywhere. Hell, Garlic Jr.'s story doesn’t go anywhere. It literally ends up in the same place it started. What did Vegeta see in that crater? Was that in fact Goku? The only interesting thing was him going through space and destroying Freeza's remaining lackeys and chastising them for serving a master who isn't even alive anymore (as far as they knew).

Random Thoughts:
One of my favorite moments is the steady shot of Kuririn in the background trying to sneak into Kami's throne room for a few seconds before Gohan slams into the ground in the foreground and then runs off screen as Piccolo follows. It makes me chuckle every time.
Takes place in October. Kinda cool. It's dare I say, mond… nope, not gonna do it.
Toei is really fond of Haiya Dragon.

Dub:
Apparently Dragon Ball Earth also has Humphry Bogart.
Is there a meaning behind the group name, The Four Monarchs? Given that they are all named after condiments or spices, The Spice Boys isn't a bad name. On the other hand, with such dumb names, having a regal group name is chuckle worthy.

Home Video: This saga had an odd release schedule. Until this point they released two at a time, but for the 3 Garlic Jr. volumes, FUNi released 1 Freeza Saga VHS and 1 Garlic Jr. VHS per month until both sagas were complete.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Lord Slug is OK, although not much to say about it other than the fact it's an abbreviated rehash of the Piccolo arc. Seeing Lord Slug turn into a giant only solidified that. The fake Super Saiyan was neat, and ironically more original than most of the transformations we have today.

I like the Garlic Junior saga, it was nice to see a movie villain reused, and Goku still travelling through space was the perfect opportunity for the fate of the world to be in the hands of someone other than him.

There was some minor redubbing between the original singles DVD release and the remastered dub for the Garlic Junior saga. Chris Sabat redubbed Vegeta's few lines, and characters such as Spice, Mustard and Maron had recasts. For Spice Bart Myer stepped down and J Michael Tatum took over. Mustard was originally played by Mark Britten, but Brandon Porter took his place. Then Maron who was voiced by Daphne Gere became voiced by Leah Clark. Puar was redubbed in The Heavens Tremble and the aliens in Vegeta's scenes, who had high pitched voices in the singles dub had the originally recorded lines reinstated. Of course there is also the switch from Dale Kelly to Kyle Herbert as the narrator, which also applied to the Freeza saga.

I also believe in the US the Garlic Junior saga was not part of any "season" but was aired as part of the Toonami Rising Sun block. In the UK and Ireland, it was aired directly after the Freeza saga on the usual weekday timeslot without any breaks.

[ABED]

I also believe in the US the Garlic Junior saga was not part of any "season" but was aired as part of the Toonami Rising Sun block. In the UK and Ireland, it was aired directly after the Freeza saga on the usual weekday timeslot without any breaks.

It's technically considered part of season 3, I think but you are correct that it didn't air right after the Freeza saga. The Freeza saga ended in November 1999, but the Garlic Jr. Saga aired in April and May 2000.

[MasenkoHA]

Lord Slug
Original Title: Super Saiyan Son Goku
While the title is more specific, it has nothing to do with the story. He turns "Super Saiyan" for a few seconds in what is little more than a hope spot right before Slug turns the tide again. Based on the dates, I'm guessing the writers did a best guess on what the form (if there were any) would look like and just gave Super Saiyan a yellow aura.

It's one of those titles that made sense at the time but just feels odd now. I understand the marketing gimmick but still.

Is there a meaning behind the group name, The Four Monarchs? Given that they are all named after condiments or spices, The Spice Boys isn't a bad name. On the other hand, with such dumb names, having a regal group name is chuckle worthy.

Their Japanese name Mazoku Shitennou more literally translates to Four Heavenly Kings of the Demon Clan. Simmons probably went with Four Monarchs because the connotations that a Westerner would perceive with the word Heavenly.

Clyde Mandelin has a great write up on the concept of Shitennou and its use in Japanese media and pop culture:
https://legendsoflocalization.com/trick ... nly-kings/

It ultimately doesn't mean more than to say "Yep, there's four of them" and probably just sounds cool.

I get why Funimation ditched it but the Spice Girls reference was pretty dated even in 2000

Interesting, the Kaios themselves seem to much more directly inspired by the actual concept of the Four Heavenly Kings with each Kaio watching over one cardinal direction of the universe instead of the earth.

I also believe in the US the Garlic Junior saga was not part of any "season" but was aired as part of the Toonami Rising Sun block. In the UK and Ireland, it was aired directly after the Freeza saga on the usual weekday timeslot without any breaks.

It's technically considered part of season 3, I think but you are correct that it didn't air right after the Freeza saga. The Freeza saga ended in November 1999, but the Garlic Jr. Saga aired in April and May 2000.

Yep season 3 was ordered for 50 episodes
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/1999/04/03/a ... l-tidbits/

Funimation revisionist history on seasons definitely just made things confusing for fans

[MasenkoHA]

. For Spice Bart Myer stepped down and J Michael Tatum took over. Mustard was originally played by Mark Britten, but Brandon Porter took his place. Then Maron who was voiced by Daphne Gere became voiced by Leah Clark.

This always confused me. I get the recasting in the Ginyu and Frieza saga for consistency with the 2005 dub of the Namek Saga but what was the point of redubbing those 3 characters?


Surely it wasn't because they thought the performances were bad because um

https://youtu.be/1zjyTM7rbJs

[8000 Saiyan]

Nothing to say about Armstrong's Lord Slug, ABED?

[ABED]

Nothing to say about Armstrong's Lord Slug, ABED?

Apparently I didn't do a spot check on the movie's dub. I forgot he was the voice of Slug. I'm sure he's great.

[Makaioshin]

Lord Slug
Original Title: Super Saiyan Son Goku
While the title is more specific, it has nothing to do with the story. He turns "Super Saiyan" for a few seconds in what is little more than a hope spot right before Slug turns the tide again. Based on the dates, I'm guessing the writers did a best guess on what the form (if there were any) would look like and just gave Super Saiyan a yellow aura.

Toriyama gave them the general idea of portraying the SSJ form from this movie by having his hair stand up. It was just at a time before he settled on the final idea. It always reminded me of Tsukutsun Tsun's appearance in Slump when he goes angry and unleashes his full power.

[jjgp1112]

I've said this before, but in hindsight it would've been a lot smarter to have made Movie 4 a Garlic Jr. Sequel while making Lord Slug the filler villain.that way, the continuity shenanigans are gone and an Evil Namekian is an interesting follow up to the Frieza saga

[WittyUsername]

Movie 4 isn’t exactly a memorable film. The whole Super Saiyan aspect was clearly just a marketing gimmick that’s ultimately pretty superfluous to the story. Ironically though, it’s probably the one thing that actually helps the movie stand out, because otherwise, it’s just a Piccolo Daimao rehash that also borrows from Movie 3 for good measure. It apparently has a reputation along with Movie 11 as one of the worst DBZ movies, and while I don’t think I’d go that far, it’s still pretty bland.

I've said this before, but in hindsight it would've been a lot smarter to have made Movie 4 a Garlic Jr. Sequel while making Lord Slug the filler villain.that way, the continuity shenanigans are gone and an Evil Namekian is an interesting follow up to the Frieza saga

I don’t think the Garlic Jr. filler was even planned when Toei was working on Movie 4. They brought back Garlic Jr. for the anime because they probably didn’t think it would be worth the effort to come up with an entirely new villain just for a filler arc.

[MasenkoHA]

Movie 4 isn’t exactly a memorable film. The whole Super Saiyan aspect was clearly just a marketing gimmick that’s ultimately pretty superfluous to the story. Ironically though, it’s probably the one thing that actually helps the movie stand out, because otherwise, it’s just a Piccolo Daimao rehash that also borrows from Movie 3 for good measure. It apparently has a reputation along with Movie 11 as one of the worst DBZ movies, and while I don’t think I’d go that far, it’s still pretty bland.

Most of the Z movies are rehashes. At least Lord Slug is aping from pre-Z material i.e stuff half of DBZ fans never bothered to watch.

I don't think either movie 4 or 11 deserve their repution as the worst DBZ movies. They're both the definition of mid.
The second Cooler movie, Super Android 13, and the second Broli movie are all far worse than both Lord Slug and Bio-Broly tbh.

I don’t think the Garlic Jr. filler was even planned when Toei was working on Movie 4. They brought back Garlic Jr. for the anime because they probably didn’t think it would be worth the effort to come up with an entirely new villain just for a filler arc.

I think that's why Jjgp said in hindsight.

[WittyUsername]

Movie 4 isn’t exactly a memorable film. The whole Super Saiyan aspect was clearly just a marketing gimmick that’s ultimately pretty superfluous to the story. Ironically though, it’s probably the one thing that actually helps the movie stand out, because otherwise, it’s just a Piccolo Daimao rehash that also borrows from Movie 3 for good measure. It apparently has a reputation along with Movie 11 as one of the worst DBZ movies, and while I don’t think I’d go that far, it’s still pretty bland.

Most of the Z movies are rehashes. At least Lord Slug is aping from pre-Z material i.e stuff half of DBZ fans never bothered to watch.

I don't think either movie 4 or 11 deserve their repution as the worst DBZ movies. They're both the definition of mid.
The second Cooler movie, Super Android 13, and the second Broli movie are all far worse than both Lord Slug and Bio-Broly tbh.

I don’t think Movie 11 deserves its reputation as the worst Dragon Ball movie either, but if I had to guess why it’s regarded as such, it’s probably because it exclusively focuses on the “lesser” characters. Goten and Trunks are arguably the main characters of Movie 10 as well, but that one at least has Gohan in a prominent role, and it still ends with a flashy beam struggle.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Movie 4 isn’t exactly a memorable film. The whole Super Saiyan aspect was clearly just a marketing gimmick that’s ultimately pretty superfluous to the story. Ironically though, it’s probably the one thing that actually helps the movie stand out, because otherwise, it’s just a Piccolo Daimao rehash that also borrows from Movie 3 for good measure. It apparently has a reputation along with Movie 11 as one of the worst DBZ movies, and while I don’t think I’d go that far, it’s still pretty bland.

Most of the Z movies are rehashes. At least Lord Slug is aping from pre-Z material i.e stuff half of DBZ fans never bothered to watch.

I don't think either movie 4 or 11 deserve their repution as the worst DBZ movies. They're both the definition of mid.
The second Cooler movie, Super Android 13, and the second Broli movie are all far worse than both Lord Slug and Bio-Broly tbh.

I don’t think Movie 11 deserves its reputation as the worst Dragon Ball movie either, but if I had to guess why it’s regarded as such, it’s probably because it exclusively focuses on the “lesser” characters. Goten and Trunks are arguably the main characters of Movie 10 as well, but that one at least has Gohan in a prominent role, and it still ends with a flashy beam struggle.

I don't dislike Bio-Broly because it focuses on lesser characters, it just felt like a lacklustre excuse to bring Broly back again when he already had two movies.

I prefer Broly : Second Coming as it focuses on characters other than Goku, but does it better. Granted Goku has a spiritual presence in that movie, but it worked and was a rather pleasant moment.

[MasenkoHA]

Broly 2 was just so so boring. The high point was Trunks pissing on Broly. Gohan just kind of shows up. It's a weird decision when he's arguably still the main character.

Bio Broly had 18 and Mr.Satan to make the movie more digestable and Trunks and Goten were somewhat entertaining in that one.

[WittyUsername]

One more thing about the Garlic Jr. arc, but I almost wonder if they would’ve been better off using an established villain(s) from the manga, like Tao Pai Pai and Shen. Yeah, the power scalers might not have liked that, but whatever.

[ABED]

The Return of Cooler has some good fights. this film is just boring. It's boring in conception and execution.

[MasenkoHA]

The Return of Cooler has some good fights. this film is just boring. It's boring in conception and execution.

One thing I noticed last time I watched it was that it had really good sound design. Idk why it stuck out to me so much but it had that going for it. And the awesome music that got repurposed as Cell's theme

Otherwise, respectfully, I find it far more boring than Slug. Just imo of course.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Even if the Slug movie isn't that great, i still like to watch the Big Green and Speedy dubs of it. Those are just so bad it's good and at least that makes it a little more entertaining in that regard as only those two dubs can in all their utter hilarity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp0DHbt ... 5l&index=3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTxg3cf ... l&index=12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVvDF2Z ... l&index=10


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKFtSst ... Pu&index=6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCXOH5N ... u&index=26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GqZ0JV ... u&index=59

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk2CVXOAy-w

[ABED]

The Return of Cooler has some good fights. this film is just boring. It's boring in conception and execution.

One thing I noticed last time I watched it was that it had really good sound design. Idk why it stuck out to me so much but it had that going for it. And the awesome music that got repurposed as Cell's theme

Otherwise, respectfully, I find it far more boring than Slug. Just imo of course.

No, you must share my opinion! Just kidding. I look forward to seeing you elaborate more on what you didn't like about The Return of Cooler when I get to that movie.

I can't believe I forgot, one aspect of the Garlic Jr. arc that bothers me a lot is when Kuririn supposedly turned by Piccolo's bite. They hid the lack of a bite because they were trying to misdirect the audience but then Kuririn's eyes change indicating he has been turned. That's not playing fair with the audience. Of course we might believe he's been turned, you show us that he's been turned. With Piccolo I can buy that he wouldn't be even after a bite. He's a demon, so maybe he can turn it off and on. I'll buy that wonky logic. Here it doesn't work and it's not how you do a misdirect. I won't ruin it for anyone who hasn't seen it but season 1 of The Good Place is how you do a misdirect that plays fair with the viewers.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

The Return of Cooler has some good fights. this film is just boring. It's boring in conception and execution.

One thing I noticed last time I watched it was that it had really good sound design. Idk why it stuck out to me so much but it had that going for it. And the awesome music that got repurposed as Cell's theme

Otherwise, respectfully, I find it far more boring than Slug. Just imo of course.

No, you must share my opinion! Just kidding. I look forward to seeing you elaborate more on what you didn't like about The Return of Cooler when I get to that movie.

I can't believe I forgot, one aspect of the Garlic Jr. arc that bothers me a lot is when Kuririn supposedly turned by Piccolo's bite. They hid the lack of a bite because they were trying to misdirect the audience but then Kuririn's eyes change indicating he has been turned. That's not playing fair with the audience. Of course we might believe he's been turned, you show us that he's been turned. With Piccolo I can buy that he wouldn't be even after a bite. He's a demon, so maybe he can turn it off and on. I'll buy that wonky logic. Here it doesn't work and it's not how you do a misdirect. I won't ruin it for anyone who hasn't seen it but season 1 of The Good Place is how you do a misdirect that plays fair with the viewers.

Yeaaaaaah, this felt like a poorly written and executed fake out. I can't imagine what Toei's writers/story people were thinking because it at least made sense with Piccolo that he was able to literally force the bad stuff out of him. Krillin OTOH just baffles me because they even make it look like he was turned by the other Black Mist infected but PSYCHE!!!! oh nope turns out he's ok and both of them were faking. I'm sorry...what?