Are you sick of Goku?

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Are you sick of Goku?

Post by Kappa » Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:17 pm

I am. I would like it if Toriyama made Goten,Gohan, or Uub the main protagonist.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:32 pm

Well, the latest movie did make Gohan and Piccolo the protagonists.

To answer your question though, I’m not sick of Goku anymore than I’m sick of modern Dragon Ball, but I could do without them making jokes such as “I don’t know what kissing is” or “meditation isn’t real training!” We get it, Goku’s an ignoramus. You don’t need to make him come across as completely clueless about everything, including the one thing he’s supposed to be good at.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by Kappa » Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:17 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:32 pm Well, the latest movie did make Gohan and Piccolo the protagonists.

To answer your question though, I’m not sick of Goku anymore than I’m sick of modern Dragon Ball, but I could do without them making jokes such as “I don’t know what kissing is” or “meditation isn’t real training!” We get it, Goku’s an ignoramus. You don’t need to make him come across as completely clueless about everything, including the one thing he’s supposed to be good at.
That's just for the movie though,right? I doubt Toriyama will continue to focus on Gohan and Piccolo.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:22 pm

Kappa wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:17 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:32 pm Well, the latest movie did make Gohan and Piccolo the protagonists.

To answer your question though, I’m not sick of Goku anymore than I’m sick of modern Dragon Ball, but I could do without them making jokes such as “I don’t know what kissing is” or “meditation isn’t real training!” We get it, Goku’s an ignoramus. You don’t need to make him come across as completely clueless about everything, including the one thing he’s supposed to be good at.
That's just for the movie though,right? I doubt Toriyama will continue to focus on Gohan and Piccolo.
I mean the last show ended like...what...5 years ago?

And the movie has been the most recent relevant Dragon Ball material since 2018.

And the manga is currently doing some Trunks and Goten in high school thing or some prequel to Super Hero thing or whatever?

Just doesn't seem like Goku's been that prominent enough recently to get sick of

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by Kappa » Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:35 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:22 pm
Kappa wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:17 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:32 pm Well, the latest movie did make Gohan and Piccolo the protagonists.

To answer your question though, I’m not sick of Goku anymore than I’m sick of modern Dragon Ball, but I could do without them making jokes such as “I don’t know what kissing is” or “meditation isn’t real training!” We get it, Goku’s an ignoramus. You don’t need to make him come across as completely clueless about everything, including the one thing he’s supposed to be good at.
That's just for the movie though,right? I doubt Toriyama will continue to focus on Gohan and Piccolo.
I mean the last show ended like...what...5 years ago?

And the movie has been the most recent relevant Dragon Ball material since 2018.

And the manga is currently doing some Trunks and Goten in high school thing or some prequel to Super Hero thing or whatever?

Just doesn't seem like Goku's been that prominent enough recently to get sick of
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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by Wrigglything » Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:54 pm

I don't feel so, honestly. It's been pretty clear it is a show and franchise that is centered around Goku in one way or another.

We all knew what happened when Toriyama tried to diverge the protagonist role to Gohan, though the long serialisation likely didn't help things.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:18 pm

Not really. Dragonball Super² Hero exists. Before it: Yes sure. But for better or worse, we got a non filler story without him.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by ATA » Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:52 pm

Fans finding out Toriyama considered making Gohan the protagonist might've been a bad thing. DB is one of the few franchises I've seen that wants the main character replaced or retired. I feel like if fans never learned about the Gohan stuff behind the scenes then we wouldn't seen this take as much as we do. Dragon Ball isn't even a series that needs a protagonist replacement. Goku is Dragonball as Dragonball is Goku.
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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by super michael » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:47 am

Am I sick of Goku? No. What I am sick of is Toei exaggerating Goku being a idiot, who can't figure out anything and forgets everything he knew in the past.

Toei doesn't know what makes Goku a good character.


Goku when he appeared in DBS anime, he always has to say or do dumb thing. Heck there was dedicated episode to Goku being dumb.

When Goku temporary died against Hit, I was hoping Goku stayed dead for some time. That is how annoying I found Goku in the anime.


Some people believe DBS Anime Goku = DB/DBZ Goku, that answer is so wrong in many way. Some people act like they haven't watched the Japanese sub or read the manga and tries to blame the English dub.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by NeoZ Duwang » Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:44 am

I love Goku and I'm happy that Super means we got at least some more stories were he was the main protagonist from beginning to end, unlike most of the late arcs in the original manga, where he was more like a plot device than a character.

With that said, while the journey was far from smooth because of the problem I just mentioned, I still feel that the original manga is what it is, I can live with its flaws. I'd much rather see them trying something new and use different characters to explore new ideas and storylines, rather than doing "Dragon Ball, but if it was still being serialized up to this day" just because they can do something slightly different or better.

Basically, what I'm saying is that having Goku and Vegeta as main characters feels to me like they're telling us "Don't worry! The Dragon Ball you knew from the 80's and 90's isn't going anywhere!". Piccolo as the main lead in Superhero and the small story with Goten and Trunks in the manga are steps in the right direction though, I hope that going forward they'll take more advantage of the Dragon World beyond the usual stuff surrounding Goku and Vegeta that we've been getting
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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by Trouser » Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:50 am

Goku is the only person who can lead the entire show. Gohan, Goten and Oob aren't that interesting. They can lead an arc or two, but they're just not fit to be the main characters.

I love original Goku, but I'm sick of stupid DBS Goku.
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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:38 am

I'm really bored with Gokuu just being, like, one thing. Toriyama—and the production staff that try to follow his example—tries so hard to make Gokuu this sort of 'thumbing his nose at authority' figure that the character just becomes unlikable and a form of authority within the context of the series itself.

Like, what is Gokuu as a lead character meant to be rebelling against? Not being a weird douche?
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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:46 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:38 am I'm really bored with Gokuu just being, like, one thing. Toriyama—and the production staff that try to follow his example—tries so hard to make Gokuu this sort of 'thumbing his nose at authority' figure that the character just becomes unlikable and a form of authority within the context of the series itself.

Like, what is Gokuu as a lead character meant to be rebelling against? Not being a weird douche?
Could you give an example? When does he thumb his nose at authority? At msot due to his upbringing he doesn't give much thought to etiquette.
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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by Shaddy » Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:06 pm

I'm not sick of Goku, and to be honest, I don't think anyone else is either. What I am (and I think many other people are) sick of is the production staff behind Dragon Ball having no particular idea what they want from the series. Goku is not so much a consistent character as the thing they cling tightly to, hoping no matter what they do, he will carry them through. Is Goku meant to be right or wrong? Is he meant to be overwhelmingly powerful, or constantly lose and have weird half-wins in arcs? Is his journey about relying on others or being strong in his own right? Is he a break with the saiyan tradition or a slave to his alien biology? The answer to all these things is "sometimes, when it's convenient", because this series is driven so heavily by marketing that pretty much all of these things need to be true at the same time to get the maximum amount of financial satisfaction.

When we say "I think DB should leave Goku behind", we are symbolically projecting the idea of DB having it's head screwed on correct onto the concept of a next-generation show or spiritual successor, because what we actually want is DB's aesthetic, action, themes and tone applied to a story that's actually well-written, and there's simply a lot of baggage with Goku that would have to be explained away (almost certainly in an unsatisfying manner) to justify redoing his progression in a soft-reboot of the series. So it then becomes "well, we should have a series about Uub/Pan/Goten/whoever" because they don't have a lot of the same pitfalls and hurdles to clear that Goku does.

And that's a very tantalizing idea! A younger, more diverse cast of characters in a soft reboot that doesn't necessarily have to follow all the same rules to ki, saiyans and battles, is enticing! But what we leave out in that is that you'd need to replace a lot of staff members to do it, because fundamentally Dragon Ball is the way it is because a particular group wants it to be, and since they make money either way, they aren't going anywhere.

This is a big part of what drives DB fans to other shonen series, of course. I have a lot of problems with Naruto, but I fundamentally understand chakra way more than I do ki. I generally don't prefer One Piece's character designs or dialogue style, but it's clearly more planned-out and structured in terms of arcs and core themes. My Hero Academia is kind of bland in many aspects, but I can chart Deku's progression of skills and abilities way more cleanly than any DB character.

What people want when they say "I'm tired of Goku" is for a series to look, feel and sound exactly like Dragon Ball, without having to acknowledge the mountain of issues that have become built into Dragon Ball as a franchise for the past several decades. It's telling that when people talk about their potential protagonists to replace Goku, it's either someone already like Goku or a character being shaped to become more like Goku, because we're not actually sick of Goku! We're sick of confused, uninteresting, unchallenging stories.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:06 pm

I'm definitely not sick of Goku and most definitely don't want the series to try to bend itself all out of shape to try to recapture the magic. If the series insists on continuing, I'd rather they'd stick to their simple formula that seems to work than to try to recreate everything. Ideally, I would like for the series to end. The story's been told. Now we're just spinning in circles. Have a movie now and then, have the games, but I don't want anything ongoing.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:49 pm

Shaddy wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:06 pm I'm not sick of Goku, and to be honest, I don't think anyone else is either. What I am (and I think many other people are) sick of is the production staff behind Dragon Ball having no particular idea what they want from the series. Goku is not so much a consistent character as the thing they cling tightly to, hoping no matter what they do, he will carry them through. Is Goku meant to be right or wrong? Is he meant to be overwhelmingly powerful, or constantly lose and have weird half-wins in arcs? Is his journey about relying on others or being strong in his own right? Is he a break with the saiyan tradition or a slave to his alien biology? The answer to all these things is "sometimes, when it's convenient", because this series is driven so heavily by marketing that pretty much all of these things need to be true at the same time to get the maximum amount of financial satisfaction.

When we say "I think DB should leave Goku behind", we are symbolically projecting the idea of DB having it's head screwed on correct onto the concept of a next-generation show or spiritual successor, because what we actually want is DB's aesthetic, action, themes and tone applied to a story that's actually well-written, and there's simply a lot of baggage with Goku that would have to be explained away (almost certainly in an unsatisfying manner) to justify redoing his progression in a soft-reboot of the series. So it then becomes "well, we should have a series about Uub/Pan/Goten/whoever" because they don't have a lot of the same pitfalls and hurdles to clear that Goku does.

And that's a very tantalizing idea! A younger, more diverse cast of characters in a soft reboot that doesn't necessarily have to follow all the same rules to ki, saiyans and battles, is enticing! But what we leave out in that is that you'd need to replace a lot of staff members to do it, because fundamentally Dragon Ball is the way it is because a particular group wants it to be, and since they make money either way, they aren't going anywhere.

This is a big part of what drives DB fans to other shonen series, of course. I have a lot of problems with Naruto, but I fundamentally understand chakra way more than I do ki. I generally don't prefer One Piece's character designs or dialogue style, but it's clearly more planned-out and structured in terms of arcs and core themes. My Hero Academia is kind of bland in many aspects, but I can chart Deku's progression of skills and abilities way more cleanly than any DB character.

What people want when they say "I'm tired of Goku" is for a series to look, feel and sound exactly like Dragon Ball, without having to acknowledge the mountain of issues that have become built into Dragon Ball as a franchise for the past several decades. It's telling that when people talk about their potential protagonists to replace Goku, it's either someone already like Goku or a character being shaped to become more like Goku, because we're not actually sick of Goku! We're sick of confused, uninteresting, unchallenging stories.
The only one of those questions that feels like there's a muddled answer is whether Goku is a slave to his biology or if he's an anomaly of his race. The answer is ultimately both. In the story he's driven to fight above pretty much anything else, but he is still an anomaly among his race. None of the rest of those answers need be consistent because progress isn't a straight line.

And I don't think people are tired of unchallenging stories. I think they want Dragon Ball, but don't realize Goku is what makes it what it is, and can't let go of the story. They want it to change but stay the same. We see this all the time with long running shows that get revived. They clamor for it and get upset that it either changed or didn't change. Almost none of them are good because the key ingredient is missing - lightning in a bottle. It's why Cobra Kai is such a miracle. It works because the story shares the same DNA as Karate Kid but it does it from a different perspective and with the characters being older, we see the double edged sword of nostalgia. By seeing things from the previous generation's perspective now that they're older, we can see why their mentors were who they were. Problem with DB is that it's covered so much ground there's nowhere else to go without breaking it.

If we're going to blame money on this issue, I think it's only fair that the audience share in some of the blame.
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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by dva_raza » Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:32 pm

Fuck lol. This topic beat me to it. I’ve been meaning to ask this but in the opposite way.
Basically, I don’t get why OP’s is such a popular opinion lately. Honestly I'm amazed, cause I would think people would be greatful for some focus on the MC.

I mean leaving aside that the main character getting some focus, well yeah, it’s kinda what you signed up for when you know it’s never been an ensemble series? It’s always been MC + multiple secondary characters.
But also, for a main character Goku has been absent A LOT. There’s always been plenty of room for other characters to balance the story.

So my thread question was actually gonna be,

Why are people sick of someone who has barely had any focus on him after he grew up?

Think about it, since Z Goku hasn’t gotten any actual story ABOUT HIM. It’s been either him resolving issues or leading people to resolve issues. And he was I could say irrelevant in the Cell arc, and not even present for half of Namek and Buu.
I guess maybe that’s what made people assume that his arc was done? You think he had his journey as a child, and so that means he just HAS to step down for someone else to lead the story? But no though, cause, why the fuck, exactly? There’s never been an actual reason to scratch Goku as a character, his arc didn’t end just cause he grew up.


The Buu arc ends with what then was a newly found Goku and Vegeta dynamic. And yeah, guess what? It was fun and it worked.
It was certainly better than what Gohan did with his time.
So yeah I absolutely welcome Super actually going with that and focusing mostly on Goku for once. I like the whole thing with UI and UE, the angels/gods theme and Goku’s journey with it. That’s why I also like the introduction of family background. I’m all for the story continuing its Goku focus. So far it’s been very interesting and fun for me and like someone here said, Goku has a way to integrate and invite characters and challenges that nobody else could.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:07 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:49 pm
Shaddy wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:06 pm I'm not sick of Goku, and to be honest, I don't think anyone else is either. What I am (and I think many other people are) sick of is the production staff behind Dragon Ball having no particular idea what they want from the series. Goku is not so much a consistent character as the thing they cling tightly to, hoping no matter what they do, he will carry them through. Is Goku meant to be right or wrong? Is he meant to be overwhelmingly powerful, or constantly lose and have weird half-wins in arcs? Is his journey about relying on others or being strong in his own right? Is he a break with the saiyan tradition or a slave to his alien biology? The answer to all these things is "sometimes, when it's convenient", because this series is driven so heavily by marketing that pretty much all of these things need to be true at the same time to get the maximum amount of financial satisfaction.

When we say "I think DB should leave Goku behind", we are symbolically projecting the idea of DB having it's head screwed on correct onto the concept of a next-generation show or spiritual successor, because what we actually want is DB's aesthetic, action, themes and tone applied to a story that's actually well-written, and there's simply a lot of baggage with Goku that would have to be explained away (almost certainly in an unsatisfying manner) to justify redoing his progression in a soft-reboot of the series. So it then becomes "well, we should have a series about Uub/Pan/Goten/whoever" because they don't have a lot of the same pitfalls and hurdles to clear that Goku does.

And that's a very tantalizing idea! A younger, more diverse cast of characters in a soft reboot that doesn't necessarily have to follow all the same rules to ki, saiyans and battles, is enticing! But what we leave out in that is that you'd need to replace a lot of staff members to do it, because fundamentally Dragon Ball is the way it is because a particular group wants it to be, and since they make money either way, they aren't going anywhere.

This is a big part of what drives DB fans to other shonen series, of course. I have a lot of problems with Naruto, but I fundamentally understand chakra way more than I do ki. I generally don't prefer One Piece's character designs or dialogue style, but it's clearly more planned-out and structured in terms of arcs and core themes. My Hero Academia is kind of bland in many aspects, but I can chart Deku's progression of skills and abilities way more cleanly than any DB character.

What people want when they say "I'm tired of Goku" is for a series to look, feel and sound exactly like Dragon Ball, without having to acknowledge the mountain of issues that have become built into Dragon Ball as a franchise for the past several decades. It's telling that when people talk about their potential protagonists to replace Goku, it's either someone already like Goku or a character being shaped to become more like Goku, because we're not actually sick of Goku! We're sick of confused, uninteresting, unchallenging stories.
The only one of those questions that feels like there's a muddled answer is whether Goku is a slave to his biology or if he's an anomaly of his race. The answer is ultimately both. In the story he's driven to fight above pretty much anything else, but he is still an anomaly among his race. None of the rest of those answers need be consistent because progress isn't a straight line.

And I don't think people are tired of unchallenging stories. I think they want Dragon Ball, but don't realize Goku is what makes it what it is, and can't let go of the story. They want it to change but stay the same. We see this all the time with long running shows that get revived. They clamor for it and get upset that it either changed or didn't change. Almost none of them are good because the key ingredient is missing - lightning in a bottle. It's why Cobra Kai is such a miracle. It works because the story shares the same DNA as Karate Kid but it does it from a different perspective and with the characters being older, we see the double edged sword of nostalgia. By seeing things from the previous generation's perspective now that they're older, we can see why their mentors were who they were. Problem with DB is that it's covered so much ground there's nowhere else to go without breaking it.

If we're going to blame money on this issue, I think it's only fair that the audience share in some of the blame.
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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by super michael » Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:47 pm

Other anime they know how to balance MC being silly at times and being serious, while in DBS Goku has to be dumb majority of the time. Doing silly things can be funny, but there is a limit to when it becomes annoying.

I have a list that compares DB/DBZ Goku with DBS Goku. DBS Anime Goku contradict his past self, even DBS Super Heroes Goku contradicts his DB/DBZ and even his DBS self.

Other anime has surpassed DB/DBZ, while DBS anime is inferior compared to DB/DBZ.

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Re: Are you sick of Goku?

Post by Shinsa » Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:22 pm

I'm sick of Goku and the whole cast other then Pan, trunks, Gotten and Ubb to be honest. But like someone above said it's because of how the characters are treated in the modern age. I don't need to explain why Goku is a terrible character in Super, that point has been worked into the ground. I mostly say to move past Goku because Toriyama and Toei don't seem to know what to do with him and just further make him unlikable....

However if put into someone who can put thought into where his character should evolve (not silly new transformations) then of course I'd embrace what ever that Goku is. Goku being an interesting main can still work since his mentally and age haven't progressed. What hurtles does a senior Saiyan of his power level have to go through? Is he weakening? is his mind deteriorating? Or has his thirst for fighting been quenched as he passes his knowledge to the new generation? Not saying this is the only route to go but for me it's vastly more interesting then a half baked multiverse and god ki. Maybe I'm expecting to much from Dragonball but people make fun of it for it's lackluster story telling and characters so instead of repeating past pitfalls why not put more care into it. SPECIALLY It's MC Goku.

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