Are you sick of Goku?

[dva_raza]

Other anime they know how to balance MC being silly at times and being serious, while in DBS Goku has to be dumb majority of the time. Doing silly things can be funny, but there is a limit to when it becomes annoying.

You wouldn’t see Vegeta or Frieza in Z doing many things they do in Super either. The “dumbing down” isn’t exclusive to Goku. Super has an absurd humor tone and obviously they adapted all the characters to it.

[super michael]

Other anime they know how to balance MC being silly at times and being serious, while in DBS Goku has to be dumb majority of the time. Doing silly things can be funny, but there is a limit to when it becomes annoying.

You wouldn’t see Vegeta or Frieza in Z doing many things they do in Super either. The “dumbing down” isn’t exclusive to Goku. Super has an absurd humor tone and obviously they adapted all the characters to it.

Goku was more intelligent compared to Vegeta in DBZ, Vegeta didn't know how to train properly and always trained alone. Vegeta normally caused all the problem in DBZ, such as Cell getting his perfect form and Buu getting resurrected. Even Kid Buu blowing up the earth was Vegeta fault for destroying the Potara.

In DBS Vegeta is more smart than before.

In DBS Super Heroes movie they had Goku written as someone who has no idea why meditation is good. Why not have Broly be the one clueless about meditation, I am sure Paragus only taught Broly brute strength. Here is DBS Super Heroes lines to show my point:

Goku: Hey, cut it out! If you sit still so long, you're gonna get rusty! The world is full of guys like Jiren, and Broly here and loads of other amazin' folks!

Vegeta: Shut up and don't interfere. This is training too.

Goku: You fibber! No way is that a form of trainin'!

Vegeta: You just don't get it.

Goku: What's to get?

Vegeta: Jiren was so overwhelmingly strong. And yet, his power really wasn't so different from our own.

Goku: Huh?

Vegeta: But he used his power with total efficiency. Didn't you notice? Even in the midst of battle, his body and spirit were both fully relaxed until the moment he struck.

Goku: Really?

Vegeta: Such an attack from nowhere can't be predicted by the enemy, and packs a tremendous punch. What's more, it allows one to conserve stamina.

Goku: Maybe so...

Vegeta: Jiren probably achieved it by instinct. So since I can't manage it myself, I'm starting out with mental training.

Whis: Ding ding ding! Outstanding! Truly outstanding, Vegeta-san! I'm impressed you've realized that.
You are absolutely correct! It's not training to simply beef up your body like an idiot.

Does that really sound the same Goku as here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3amWxZr-3w&t=13s

Goku does meditation before the 23rd Martial Art Tournament. He calls Vegeta a genius for doing standing meditation.
Goku does meditation in Otherworld before the 25th Martial Art Tournament.
Goku does meditation in DBS.

But now Toei has to make Goku dumb, no matter how that contradicts the character.

Other character might do dumb things, but Goku they just went overboard.

[WittyUsername]

Doesn’t Toriyama write the movies? I would think that if anyone is to blame for the meditation line, it would be him.

[GokuHater]

Like most of the people said, I am sick of Super Goku.
The manga did that partially better but anime and movies simplified his pwrsona to DBZA level.

The original Goku (even the original manga Goku) I would watch and probably never got sick off. While Goku is a flat character in some ways there's enough good to make it interesting.
Even GT Goku while feeling a bit off resbles OG Goku more.

[ABED]

Like most of the people said, I am sick of Super Goku.
The manga did that partially better but anime and movies simplified his pwrsona to DBZA level.

The original Goku (even the original manga Goku) I would watch and probably never got sick off. While Goku is a flat character in some ways there's enough good to make it interesting.
Even GT Goku while feeling a bit off resbles OG Goku more.

What do you take OG Goku to be?

[super michael]

Like most of the people said, I am sick of Super Goku.
The manga did that partially better but anime and movies simplified his pwrsona to DBZA level.

The original Goku (even the original manga Goku) I would watch and probably never got sick off. While Goku is a flat character in some ways there's enough good to make it interesting.
Even GT Goku while feeling a bit off resbles OG Goku more.

What do you take OG Goku to be?

• Goku does what his masters tells him to do, he is patients for his masters to train him.

• Goku knew how to tell Kami disguise, even though he was inside a humans body. He knew how to tell one strength without fighting and tell that Kami was lying.

• Goku knew why Ginyu wouldn't be able to use his full power, he knew about spirit and body being in harmony.

• Goku knew how meditation was useful for training. Goku knew that Vegeta was on the right track to get to the next level.

• Goku knew the drawback of SSJ Grade 2 and SSJ Grade 3, he knew what was the best way to train.

• Goku was willing to not fight Buu, even though he likes to fight strong opponent. He wanted to make sure there would be strong fighters for Buu and the next villains. He was aware that there wasn't going to be a next time that he could save the earth while dead.

• Goku knew how to get Elder Kaioshin to help him.

DBS Anime Goku is a clown. He is a complete fake that contradicts what Toriyama wrote in Dragon Ball. DBS Super Heroes is even more fake, doesn't know why meditation is good or anything about body and spirit.
Broly was available, but no it has to be Goku that acts all dumb.

[ABED]

That first thing is flat out untrue. Goku often doesn't listen to what his masters tell him. He didn't listen to Muten Roshi and Kaio-Sama when they told him to not go after the Kuririn's killer or Freeza.

Also, sorry Super Michael, I asked Gokuhater what they thought. That may sound rude, but so many times I've seen you go into these rants about how bad Super is even in threads that have nothing to do with it. Even though that is applicable here, I've seen what you have to say in other threads. I wanted to read what Gokuhater had to say.

[super michael]

That first thing is flat out untrue. Goku often doesn't listen to what his masters tell him. He didn't listen to Muten Roshi and Kaio-Sama when they told him to not go after the Kuririn's killer or Freeza.

Also, sorry Super Michael, I asked Gokuhater what they thought. That may sound rude, but so many times I've seen you go into these rants about how bad Super is even in threads that have nothing to do with it. Even though that is applicable here, I've seen what you have to say in other threads. I wanted to read what Gokuhater had to write.

That is a good point there, you are right Goku did disobey those two masters. It doesn't matter the reason why he disobeyed, the fact is he disobeyed them.

I am curious to what Gokuhater has to say also. It is no problem, I am aware I complain about DBS anime a lot.

[ABED]

To answer, no, I'm not sick of Goku. I don't mind Goku or Super as a whole being more exaggerated than perhaps previously, but it's good in many other respects and I don't mind all that much when shows get away from a more "grounded" tone. I'm no more sick of Goku than I am of DB in general. If it went away tomorrow, I would be fine. However, if it came back without Goku, I'd be disappointed as he is Dragon Ball.

[GokuHater]

That first thing is flat out untrue. Goku often doesn't listen to what his masters tell him. He didn't listen to Muten Roshi and Kaio-Sama when they told him to not go after the Kuririn's killer or Freeza.

Also, sorry Super Michael, I asked Gokuhater what they thought. That may sound rude, but so many times I've seen you go into these rants about how bad Super is even in threads that have nothing to do with it. Even though that is applicable here, I've seen what you have to say in other threads. I wanted to read what Gokuhater had to say.

Well, I also do have problems with Super but I am not an all out hater (despite my nick)

Either way how I see original Goku?
Well to start he is socially awkward and clueless but this doesn't seem to be a trait of stupidity but his growing up.

In contact with people Goku learns slowly but surely - just compare his going through the city in RR arc, to anything in Z.

Goku is also intelligent but that intelligence is shown through fighting, he learns to adapt, he strategizes, he discovers new ways, he is a fighting genius and fighting is his passion.
While he is not the anime Superman in the manga
, he is highly heroic and does good things. You can also tell how his various mentors "shaped" him.

In Z we also get to know Goku as a father (and while he isn't perfect) he surely is not a bad father. Looking at his bond with Gohan (and the time he actually could look out for him) we can see he deeply cares for his son.
In Buu saga we also get to see Goku at his prime as an experienced mentor and that is just so natural, the way his character was meant to be.

There are some Goku choices which I think are arguably bad, don't have very good motivation and endanger everyone (letting Vegeta go in Saiyan Saga, Senzu for Cell, leaving Pan for Uub), fortunately most of them end in some way okay.

As for Super Goku, well ... He still does posseses this traits. Somewhere. I do enjoy seeing him in BoG, Broly, that moment I mentioned during Zamasu.
However these are sparse and not as frequent as I would want.
In Super Goku is not socially awkward, he is just stupid. He never was stupid.

I mentioned fighting was his passion.
Now it's his life. I get the feeling he would sacrifice everyone and everything for a good fight and I'm aware Goku always fought for himself but not to the point everything else just doesn't matter.

Goku was always naive in his world view and that was both his good and bad trait.
Now he is just childish. What do I care if GT made Goku into a kid again if Super made him as a kid in adult body.

He still seems to be a fighting genius but his portrayal still just doesn't live up to it (looking at you super hero and the meditation line).

While I said Goku character in Buu arc seems very natural, his character in Super seems very unnatural compared. Just try to imagine that Goku acting like a punk in front of Zamasu begging for a fight.
He wouldn't act such. In the Buu arc he was very stoic and serious before god's while sticking to his ideals.

I think this can be summed as such:
Goku isn't exactly the same character anymore. They bumped him up a bit for modern audiences (possibly having a bit of DBZA in there) and that's it.
We have what we have know but I may miss the "old portrayal" the same

[ABED]

Thank you. I appreciated that.

I would agree with most of what you said, but I could see DBZ Goku trying to get Zamasu to fight him. I never saw that as him being a punk. If anything, it's the other way around. Zamasu has way too high an opinion of himself and Goku simply wanted a well-meaning good sportman fight.

And of all the things to call Goku, I don't think stoic would be high on my list.

[8000 Saiyan]

I suppose there are some legit criticisms of how Goku is portrayed in Super, but even still I'm fine with Goku being the main protagonist. After all, he's what sells Dragon Ball.

When Toriyama tried to make Gohan the main character, it wasn't working out that well, so he decided to bring Goku back to life in the Buu arc.

[Jord]

The problem with Super Goku (and other characters like Vegeta) is that character journey is already done. We've seen it years ago in DBZ. So the only way they can grow without disrupting the Z story is to have them regress/get dumber only to grow "again".

Actually, Xeno Goku in Heroes has the most chance to grow since he's not bound to continuity that already has been written.

[dragonballhero]

I'm not sick of Goku, and to be honest, I don't think anyone else is either. What I am (and I think many other people are) sick of is the production staff behind Dragon Ball having no particular idea what they want from the series. Goku is not so much a consistent character as the thing they cling tightly to, hoping no matter what they do, he will carry them through. Is Goku meant to be right or wrong? Is he meant to be overwhelmingly powerful, or constantly lose and have weird half-wins in arcs? Is his journey about relying on others or being strong in his own right? Is he a break with the saiyan tradition or a slave to his alien biology? The answer to all these things is "sometimes, when it's convenient", because this series is driven so heavily by marketing that pretty much all of these things need to be true at the same time to get the maximum amount of financial satisfaction.

When we say "I think DB should leave Goku behind", we are symbolically projecting the idea of DB having it's head screwed on correct onto the concept of a next-generation show or spiritual successor, because what we actually want is DB's aesthetic, action, themes and tone applied to a story that's actually well-written, and there's simply a lot of baggage with Goku that would have to be explained away (almost certainly in an unsatisfying manner) to justify redoing his progression in a soft-reboot of the series. So it then becomes "well, we should have a series about Uub/Pan/Goten/whoever" because they don't have a lot of the same pitfalls and hurdles to clear that Goku does.

And that's a very tantalizing idea! A younger, more diverse cast of characters in a soft reboot that doesn't necessarily have to follow all the same rules to ki, saiyans and battles, is enticing! But what we leave out in that is that you'd need to replace a lot of staff members to do it, because fundamentally Dragon Ball is the way it is because a particular group wants it to be, and since they make money either way, they aren't going anywhere.
`
This is a big part of what drives DB fans to other shonen series, of course. I have a lot of problems with Naruto, but I fundamentally understand chakra way more than I do ki. I generally don't prefer One Piece's character designs or dialogue style, but it's clearly more planned-out and structured in terms of arcs and core themes. My Hero Academia is kind of bland in many aspects, but I can chart Deku's progression of skills and abilities way more cleanly than any DB character.

What people want when they say "I'm tired of Goku" is for a series to look, feel and sound exactly like Dragon Ball, without having to acknowledge the mountain of issues that have become built into Dragon Ball as a franchise for the past several decades. It's telling that when people talk about their potential protagonists to replace Goku, it's either someone already like Goku or a character being shaped to become more like Goku, because we're not actually sick of Goku! We're sick of confused, uninteresting, unchallenging stories.

I think you may have just hit the nail on the head here. I'll be the first to admit, there have been times where I've entertained the idea of Pan taking the lead role from Goku at some point, but you mentioning how those who want a replacement want one who is like Goku/shaping up to be like him at some point has made me kind of re-evaluate my thought process on Pan taking the lead. I mean, I can't deny toddler Pan shares a LOT of Goku's traits.

The fact of the matter is, I've never TRULY been sick of Goku. In fact, I consider him to be Dragon Ball itself. Say what you will about his Super portrayal (Personally, I can't say I'm a huge fan), but the fact is he gets things started.

Ironically, I've even had the opposite reaction in regards to Gohan taking the lead for the first quarter of the Buu arc. I like Gohan, but even I didn't think he was suited to suddenly take Goku's place as the MC (Admittedly, it didn't exactly help that he was indirectly responsible for the death of Goku, resulting in him getting such an unsatisfying temporary ending to his role in the story). What's more, Super Hero sort of reminded me why I feel that Gohan isn't a good fit for being the MC, what with him being even MORE passive than his dad.

[Jord]

Yeah, Gohan is more or less a wimp after the Frieza saga who's importance and power relies on random sudden power ups instead of character development.

[Thanos]

No. There aren't any characters that would be more interesting as protagonists. Gohan and Goten are cultured versions of Goku (in other words, without the attributes that make Goku interesting) who don't care about fighting so you can't really do it without it coming across like bad fanfiction. As for Uub, he doesn't really have a personality and Pan, well... I suppose that might work... it would need to be completely divorced from her GT incarnation. Working from her Super Hero/EoZ she's kind of blank slate but I don't know what struggles any characters associated with Goku and co. could possibly have. She has Saiyan gods on her side, her dad is now equal in power to one, she's being trained by an alien who is also equal to one, and reaps all the benefits of Goku's relationships (Karin, Dende, Bulma and the dragonballs, etc.). Plus, with power-creeping, she'll probably reach Beast form before she's a teenager. I guess the problem with continuing from Goku's orbit is that his family and friends are way too overpowered and privileged to have a protagonist with actual problems aside from universal threats, wherein Goku and co. would just step in anyway.

If anything it should be on another planet or a completely different time, decades before or long after Goku. I like what they've introduced by having Goku and Vegeta sometimes being unreachable and giving other characters a chance to shine. That's good enough for me.

[Zephyr]

Insert oft-repeated and mundane observation that Dragon Ball is a story about Goku. Ergo, if I was sick of Goku, I'd be sick of Dragon Ball, and would spend my time with another story, as I do from time to time. Which I guess is less being sick of Dragon Ball, and more just needing a break.

I can understand how making Oob the protagonist might feel natural, for the same reason it might have felt natural for Gohan to become the protagonist. As Goku passes from student to master, his story of growth is ostensibly over, and if we want a story about continued martial improvement the story would instead be centered on the new learner. But neither of these 'successors' are as interesting to me as protagonists.

Gohan's character is fundamentally different from Goku's. He's not as interested in improving as a martial artist for its own sake and testing his limits. He has more moral scruples than Goku does, coming across like a person who would be more proactive about preventing threats at the expense of having a chance to test his strength. While that's much more commendable by real world moral standards, it makes for a less interesting martial arts story, especially one being told through Toriyama's sense of humor. Oob's character....doesn't really exist, because it didn't really need to; he's there to end Goku's story. Sure, there's nothing saying you couldn't give him interesting characterization, but that needs to happen before I start wanting a story about him instead of stretching Goku's out even more.

And that's the other thing. Even if Goku passes from student to master, his story of growth needn't necessarily be over. Training a new generation of opponents as a means of training and testing/pushing his own limits would be a pretty sensible way to stretch Goku's story out. But we're not even there yet. We've still yet to see the epilogue as recontextualized by Super's existence. Until that happens and Goku fully passes from student to master, this second wind of his story of growth has yet to conclude.

But I know, that all doesn't matter a whole lot to people who are more attached to Dragon Ball's lore and worldbuilding than they are to its story. They simply want a different story, about different characters, set in the same universe. And that's fine, I did enjoy Super Hero well enough. However, nostalgic as I am for the universe and setting and cast of characters, I can't say I'm invested enough in it on its own terms anymore that I'm thirsty for it to be the vehicle for a different story. The latter is what keeps me coming back, and the former is just its backdrop.

Okay that's somewhat of a lie. I'd love a story about Goku's discarded rivals, how they deal with having been left in the dust by him, and their own struggles of growth and improvement. Even better, how they deal with the rivalries you'd think they'd have with one another: Yamcha and Tenshinhan, Tenshinhan and Piccolo, all three of them and Vegeta, Piccolo and Vegeta with Freeza. They all have good reason to hold grudges against each other, if not malicious grudges then at least the desire for a rematch. While having these rivalries fleshed out and explored more could feed back into Goku's story (ie: have them all gain newfound strength and continue to rival him the way Vegeta and Freeza continue to, and the way Piccolo could theoretically be on track towards), it wouldn't need to be.

[Rafa Fast]

1: No
2: I said this in a old thread and I'm going to repeat it, I can't get sick of Goku because the way his character is handled works for the franchise story-wise and brand-wise imo, Dragon Ball shouldn't and doesn't need to "move on and change its Main Character" and the reasons are the following

• Goku is the Pikachu/Harry Potter/Optimus Prime/Mario/Sonic of his franchise, he is the face of the brand and people are used to him, the autors are fully aware that it's risky to change it and that the major audience wouldn't accept it, he is what sells it

• The franchise already showed us multiple times that he definitely doesn't need to be ditched as the MC to let the others shine, who are the main characters in the Trunks Special? Bardock Special? A Hero's Legacy? DBZ Movie 9? Movie 10? Movie 11? Super Hero? And let's not forget that starting from Saiyans, in the arcs he's always left aside for a considerable amount of time, all of this makes me unable to miss different characters shining

And about himself in Super (animated series), my main problem with anyone who criticizes it is the fact that everyone seems to completely ignore his fights, is Goku also dumb in the fights?
Super's Goku can be boiled down to a simple reasoning: he's dumb when he needs to and he's serious when he needs to

The thing in Super is the simple fact that Toei purposedly wanted more comical moments in the series, wanting something more "family friendly', so you have a lot of moments of Goku being silly, AND HE'S NOT ALONE, Vegeta, Kuririn, Bulma, everyone acts very "kids cartoon like" as well in these moments
But then why people only talk about Goku?

• Because he's the MC and the one with the longest screen time

• He's already innocent by nature

The Super comic is the perfect example for how indeed Toei just wanted a lot of comical moments where Goku acts foolishly, more than in DB, Z and GT
We are in different times, and the companies know that they need to make characters appealing for younger audiences, and Goku was the solution, but with the atmosphere and pacing of Z, things wouldn't work as they want, so they added lots of scenes where he's dumb, and the other character are affected too, please, don't tell me that there was a reason for Vegeta to dance and make dumb facial expressions only to convince Whis to train him, and I don't get why people avoid to talk about this.
If you think that this is problem, it's okay, but you can't refuse that there's a context for it.

The only true problem with Goku in animated Super is that Toei forced him to be the MC for way too much time, this resulted in moments where clearly it wasn't necessary for him to be the star.

Now that could be the reason for people getting sick of him imo.

[Ashur]

I'm not sick of Goku, i'm sick of how his character is potrayed in Super media, same with Vegeta, and thus having them both lead the show 24/7 gets tiresome, thankfully Super Hero tries to space this out, but it still blunders by staining Goku's character even more (with the silly meditation thing), so making someone else the focus is not going to solve the main issue.

[ABED]

Vegeta being a co-lead is relatively new. I don't see why Goku and Vegeta being the leads all the time is negative.