Worst decisions ever made

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Rafa Fast
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Worst decisions ever made

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:19 pm

Hello everybody, I got curious, what you guys consider as the worst explanation ever given for something that was previously a mystery in the franchise or what you consider as the worst plot solutions, plot devices, conveniences ever offered by the franchise, anything that you think is just 'too absurd and ridiculous to accept"?
If you want, feel free to say a personal explanation or solution that you think would have been better than the official one.

Me: Vegeta not defeating Freeza in Fukkatsu no F vs The End of the Zamasu arc, maybe the former one, the latter at least was a daring idea, the former is just pure bait
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:55 pm

I'm not sure how the ending of the Future Trunks saga qualifies for this thread. It wasn't an illogical or dumb plot development, it was literally what was bound to happen with someone who is immortal. Zamasu was the only Immortal villain, it was clear that simply hitting him really hard with an attack wasn't going to work. The hate this ending got mostly comes down to people wanting a happy perfect ending for Trunks, but the ending of that arc teaches us a very important lesson of life: there isn't always a happy ending where everything goes back to normal. Trunks survived, that is a happy resolution, but his life will never be the same again, and that can happen in reality. I'm not sure why that's an absurd or ridiculous plot development?

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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:05 pm

Oh my bad XD it doesn't, at least not in the way I (didn't) specified it
Yep, I do think all that part is indeed great, what I mean is the true ending-ending, you have Trunks losing everything, his friends, his future, eveything, but then you have the timeline or something being restored and this very weird "there are going to be another Trunks and Mai in there" thing, idk but for me it sounds like something they thought about while having a stroke, Trunks went throughout a lot in this arc and that's the ending he gets? At least for me it's pretty ridiculous lol, but I gotta admit, I don't know if much else could have been done tho.
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:54 pm

The last panel in this page.
So there was a Future Trunks in Cell's timeline??

Sending Future Trunks to a timeline with doubles of himself also makes no sense when Cell's own timeline is lacking a Trunks.
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:48 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:05 pm Oh my bad XD it doesn't, at least not in the way I (didn't) specified it
Yep, I do think all that part is indeed great, what I mean is the true ending-ending, you have Trunks losing everything, his friends, his future, eveything, but then you have the timeline or something being restored and this very weird "there are going to be another Trunks and Mai in there" thing, idk but for me it sounds like something they thought about while having a stroke, Trunks went throughout a lot in this arc and that's the ending he gets? At least for me it's pretty ridiculous lol, but I gotta admit, I don't know if much else could have been done tho.
I don't think it constitutes as a "bad" decision from a meta perspective. The writers simply decided Trunks did not deserve a happy ending, logically there is nothing lore-breaking or illogical with this decision.

An example of a bad decision from a logical perspective would be introducing SSG only to get it replaced by SSB so quickly... and people were very quick to notice this. What was the point of SSG's existence, when it got replaced literally in the next story arc and didn't make a cameo for years?

A lot of people will probably tell you that it would have been better to keep SSG as the main form for the RoF and Universe 6 story arcs, and then introduce SSB when Goku went angry against Black and Zamasu.

That is an example of a decision that was kind of illogical, because SSG was introduced as this legendary new thing, but then it got replaced quickly by SSB. One would have to wonder why they made such a big deal out of SSG in the first place.

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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Kaboom » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:19 pm

All of Super's existence is collectively one of the worst decisions in the franchise's history.

The terrible, dismal, character-ruining ending of its Trunks/Zamas arc is just the lowest of its many lows.
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:56 pm

I'd say all the shitty ways the franchise treats women is the most shitty stuff and without real explanation.

In terms of 'answering mysteries' I'm not really sure. If I'm willing to accept nearly 200 chapters into a weekly comic that the main character is in fact not a mythical creature but instead a space alien I'm willing to accept anything. I just care about what character drama and development can be mined from a story point.

The Future Trunks arc is a big favorite of mine. I don't care for killing of Future Blooma to advance a male character's arc but I absolutely loved Black and Zamasu as well as the useless Gowasu. The thriller storyline was intriguing, the yaoi was thrilling and the ending result has a lot of fun places to go if they would mine it for character drama. I wanna see Gokuu and Vegeta at odds because Vegeta has to kill Gokuu to have Future Trunks' timeline restored by the Zen-Ou!
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:16 pm

I disagree with Vegeta defeating Freeza. Goku defeating Freeza in ROF made sense because he was finishing up on what happen on Namek. Vegeta when dying told Goku to defeat Freeza and have him pay for the Saiyans. Killing him help finish up the arc that Goku never completed.

However, I feel one of the worst decisions was when Gohan didn't kill off Cell in his second form. He would have never try to blown up if Gohan didn't kill him right off the bat. I also hated that Goku didn't take his heart meds before fighting #19. Chances are that he would never been sick and would have finished him off.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:54 pm The last panel in this page.
So there was a Future Trunks in Cell's timeline??

Sending Future Trunks to a timeline with doubles of himself also makes no sense when Cell's own timeline is lacking a Trunks.
Cell could have been talking about the current timeline. The spy bot in Goku's timeline saw Trunks fighting and probably wanted to collect Trunks DNA. It still surprises me that Cell only need the DNA of Goku and Vegeta. Having human figthers DNA would have been nice too.
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Cipher » Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:23 am

Starting the series off on so many rape/sexual harrassment jokes. You have no idea how often I see this posing a very, very understandable hurdle for curious 2020s readers on Reddit, etc. Almost all of the first arc's humor could also be restructured to work without them--see US TV edits of Episode 8, for example, which effortlessly recontextualizes that very funny comedy of errors from a plot about Oolong trying to feel Bulma up while she sleeps (yikes) to one about him trying to cop the Dragon Balls, which works just as well.

or

That Cell timeline Trunks flub above. See also: Cell claiming the time machine was already set for the present year, followed by Piccolo's nonsensical assertion that it must have been because Trunks was coming back to tell them all he'd beaten the androids (a year before he'd even met them all?). Ignores the perfectly reasonable explanation that Cell might have picked that year deliberately to line his regrowth up with the androids' emergence, which would have been a matter of public history. All of this happens in one scene.

or

TV Super's entire production schedule/environment.

I genuinely have no idea why the end of the Future Trunks arc is so disliked.

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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Scientist Fu » Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:41 am

Creating a female version of Broly.

In all seriousness, I will go with the sexual jokes, which the victims are always female characters (and kids or very young characters) for some reason (even in the fictional world they won't let them in peace), it always disturbed me since my youngest age.

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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Peril » Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:53 pm

I like Beerus as a design but I dont like the GoD concept. Basically find the godly hierarchy of Super makes the franchise feel bloated.

My main gripe is how Beerus is the reason Freeza killed the Saiyans. It takes away Frieza's thunder, immensly so when Beerus becomes Goku's ally anyway. Beerus came off like a kid inserting their OC into the narrative in the most obnoxious way possible.

But the real worst decision is that the ToP happens without any time given to explore the worlds of the other contestants. With the tournament showing off each universe's best, I doubt we will ever see those characters again. Feels like a waste to me.

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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:34 pm

So many developments to consider. The ones which immediately come to mind stem a great deal from Super. I look to the example of the Potara Earrings only having the quality of permanence on the condition of those intended fusees being Kaioshin. Another would be the ease at which Freeza progressed in strength to the point that he was boasting an advantage over Goku and Vegeta with his newfangled form. Lack of any prior training or not, I feel that a better justification and subtext could have been written to allow for Freeza's growth. Something like the involvement of Champa. Maybe Freeza behind the scenes encountered the Universe 6 Hakaishin and negotiations happened where Freeza was allowed to be trained by Vados in exchange for the culinary products of his empire and assistance in locating the Super Dragon Balls. You an interesting relationship dynamic established there that sees the multiverse's characters embellished more while further reinforcing the moral neutrality of the Hakaishin in their allowance for a megalomaniacal sociopath like Freeza to be granted strength that could endanger the lives of billions if it benefits them personally.

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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Rafa Fast » Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:13 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:48 pm An example of a bad decision from a logical perspective would be introducing SSG only to get it replaced by SSB so quickly... and people were very quick to notice this. What was the point of SSG's existence, when it got replaced literally in the next story arc and didn't make a cameo for years?

A lot of people will probably tell you that it would have been better to keep SSG as the main form for the RoF and Universe 6 story arcs, and then introduce SSB when Goku went angry against Black and Zamasu.

That is an example of a decision that was kind of illogical, because SSG was introduced as this legendary new thing, but then it got replaced quickly by SSB. One would have to wonder why they made such a big deal out of SSG in the first place.
Hmmmm..?? Well I don't get how that is a good example of a bad decision and much less illogical, since the story indeed gives us a totally logical explanation for it, and we almost don't even need Fukkatsu no F to understand it, for these people, I would tell that they definitely don't know what was the original purpose & concept for SSJB way back in Fukkatsu no F, there's a whole context behind this form replacing SSJG.
The SSJG was purposedly meant to not be brought back in Fukktasu no F, The final battle from Battle of Gods not only clearly show but tell us that SSJG isn't really a transformation but a status, Goku absorbed the god ki, he didn't need to transform to use it anymore, this results in the "Saiyan Beyond God" state, where Goku uses the absorbed god ki without transforming, just as Beerus says in the previous film. SSJB came to replace the golden SSJ, Goku was meant to never use the Golden SSJ forms again, due to SSJB already being the SSJ, but with the god ki status, that's why you don't see Goku being able to transform into SSJG again in the ending of BoG except for a few frames.
He technically "lost" the SSJG while at the same time didn't, because SSJB was the current SSJG, as the golden SSJs were now useless.
So they gave us the reasons for SSJG being ditched and for SSJB showing up right after before Fukkatsu no F was even a thing, and there's even the training with Whis to also give us the context for how Goku & Vegeta obtained the SSJB, so I really can't see how all of this can be illogical and a bad decision if they established a concept in BoG and literally kept it in Fukkatsu no F (way better than SSJ3 imo :D)
but it's a opinion thread, so I understand people getting upset with God not returning, but the concept does makes a lot of sense, it's just people like me that wanted to see God more.
That's kind of ironic because I do think the real problem was SSJG (and the Golden SSJs) returning, it broke the established concept, that was clearly a retcon :|
Scientist Fu wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:41 am Creating a female version of Broly.
Well, I do have something bad for her...I think it was wrong giving her LSSJ form the same look as Broly's LSSJ but with lipstick and tits in the animated series, it's a fucking cartoon but seriously, Broly is logically a mountain of muscles in his LSSJ form because he already has defined muscles in his base and SSJ forms. Kale is skinny in her base form, then somehow she's muscular in her SSJ form but not Caulifla.
Idk I personally think they should've went with her comic LSSJ design (yeah it came after, but still :silent: )
Hellspawn28 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:16 pm I disagree with Vegeta defeating Freeza. Goku defeating Freeza in ROF made sense because he was finishing up on what happen on Namek. Vegeta when dying told Goku to defeat Freeza and have him pay for the Saiyans. Killing him help finish up the arc that Goku never completed.
Yeah but Vegeta intended to kill Freeza too, so he completely ignored "Goku's arc", so Vegeta pretty much got a lost arc here? Idk, I think they are going to use Black Freeza to do it.
However, I feel one of the worst decisions was when Gohan didn't kill off Cell in his second form. He would have never try to blown up if Gohan didn't kill him right off the bat. I also hated that Goku didn't take his heart meds before fighting #19. Chances are that he would never been sick and would have finished him off
In that case, then the franchise have countless examples like these, I can't say anything but that they are the classic 'do it or don't it to to advance the story"
The Boo saga could have ended with everyone trying to stop Majin Boo's birth, or with Gohan defeating Super Boo, or with Vegetto defeating Super Boohan.
The Androids/Cell saga could have ended with Goku killing Cell with his Shunkanido Kamehameha, or with Vegeta killing Cell with his Final Flash, or with him alongside Trunks joining forces to defeat Semi Perfect Cell.
And much much much more!
Goku using his meds to defeat 19, would led to him defeating 20 right in the sequence, the androids would never be activated and Cell wouldn't be able to say bye bye to existence because everyone would break the shit out of him while he's still in his Imperfect form.
I personally prefer things the way it happened, does it show that the characters are dumb as hell? Yeah, but still :yawn:
That's why I think Vegeta should have killed Freeza in FnF, because what happens doesn't make the story advance (actually makes it go backwards :lolno:), maybe the whole Earth destruction & Whis time shenanigan could happen, but then, Goku alerts "Vegeta, do it already!" idk, Goku already defeated Freeza in Namek, I really don't think this adds anything new to his character, much less to Freeza, so that's a very meh arc conclusion imo.
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:56 pm I'd say all the shitty ways the franchise treats women is the most shitty stuff and without real explanation.
For Dragon Ball 84/86, agreed (Blonde Lunch's a exception), DBZ maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybeeeeeeee ChiChi? Yes? (specially in the comic), Bulma in Namek clearly has the damsel in distress cliche role
Bulma in Super is...Bulma, Chichi in the comic exists and in the tv series she's that thing, Android 18 prior to the ToP doesn't do shit except for being random fighter #2 in BoG.
And Videl...yeaaaaaah I understand where you're trying to get, I wouldn't say that there's no explanation, but yeah, I think it sucks too.
but at least the new ones (Caulifla, Kale...) deliver something I guess ^^
Cipher wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:23 am TV Super's entire production schedule/environment.
Agreed
I genuinely have no idea why the end of the Future Trunks arc is so disliked.
Well, my case is the post zamasu-zeno stuff, Trunks and Mai going to a timeline where there's "copies" of them just sounds ridiculous to me, it's doesn't make much sense for me, as GreatSaiyaman123 said, why send Trunks to a timeline with double of himself if in Cell's timeline there's no Trunks? I just think it was really milk-and-water, Trunks was meant to get a bad ending? Yeah okay, but this isn't a bad ending for me, it's a ridiculous ending, he and we deserved a better arc ending XD
Now regarding the zeno-zamasu thing, I think people just really hate Zeno and didn't wanted to see him doing the job
And I saw a lot of people complaining that Universe Zamasu makes 0% sense, so there are the complaints, I guess.
Peril wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:53 pm I like Beerus as a design but I dont like the GoD concept. Basically find the godly hierarchy of Super makes the franchise feel bloated.
Hmmm how exactly? Specifically?
I remember that my problems with the Hakaishins are two

1: Not all of them aren't animals. When I saw Beerus I imediatelly got the concept, the Egyptians used to praise certain animals as divine beings and symbols, so it made totally sense the inspiration and his clothes. But then we get low cost black Ewok, a Giant Robot with a demon inside, a random fat beard guy, a alien-sh scrotum humanoid. These designs aren't even a bit atractive, if they were used for a character like Mr. Popo, for me it would be fine, but the Hakaishins??? Damn, missed opportunity, a used to expect a badass bird looking Hakaishin, well, kiddy disappointment but I still have it to this day 'xD

2: They never carroed the "God of Destruction" title very well imo, with that title I expected super dangerous beings that really travel around the universe destroying everything, I honestly think Freeza with his modus operandis works much better as a God of Destruction, idk, I just really think they look way too calm, specially Beerus, maybe it would've been better if they went it the post BoG movie fan theories about Beerus being the only God of Destruction and the other ones being God of Love, God of Mischief, God of War... :shock: ? Haha XD, today is different though, I see the name "Hakaishin" mostly as a reference to their Hakai technique, this way, it makes more sense for me.
My main gripe is how Beerus is the reason Freeza killed the Saiyans. It takes away Frieza's thunder, immensly so when Beerus becomes Goku's ally anyway. Beerus came off like a kid inserting their OC into the narrative in the most obnoxious way possible.
But don't Freeza also have his personal reasons for exterminating the Saiyans? The fear of the SSJs and all those stuff, like, I do understand your point, but am I missing something?
But the real worst decision is that the ToP happens without any time given to explore the worlds of the other contestants. With the tournament showing off each universe's best, I doubt we will ever see those characters again. Feels like a waste to me.
99% agreed, the 1% is just a detail I would change, I don't think it was necessary to explore the other universes in the ToP, the ToP was about the ToP and not multiverse exploration, what I think they really should have explored more was the characters themselves. I see many complaining that the ToP is just Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Android 17 and Golden Freeza vs U6 Saiyans vs Jiren, Toppo and Dyspo (& some Ribrianne in the middle ofc), and I can see the reasons, the other universes don't get the deserved spotlight that they should, 65% of the roster are characters that you just don't want to give a fuck about and just want to see them get eliminated ASAP (Ribrianne don't count), I know, there are a lot of characters and it's impossible to give the spotlight for each one of them with the arc's length, but they could've at least tried to make us care about the other Universes, people only cared about U7, 6 and 11, that's the truth, and it wasn't even all of the members. The comic does it even worse as everything just feels like a speedrun to end the arc before the release of DBS Broly.
And, I already commented a time ago on how DBS from U6 Tournament to ToP was a Multiverse Saga, but after the ToP, things just stopped, Broly, Moro and Granolla are simply a "Universe 7 Revisited Saga' where Goku & Vegeta fight against stronger beings than Boo, then Super Hero is "Earth Revisited Saga", soooo.....yeah, they don't seen interested in bringing these characters back imo. Feels like a waste to me².
Lionel wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:34 pm So many developments to consider. The ones which immediately come to mind stem a great deal from Super. I look to the example of the Potara Earrings only having the quality of permanence on the condition of those intended fusees being Kaioshin.
I liked that it at least fixed a plot hole that no one could explain, but isn't that contradictory to DaiKaioshin merging with a witch :crazy: ?
Another would be the ease at which Freeza progressed in strength to the point that he was boasting an advantage over Goku and Vegeta with his newfangled form. Lack of any prior training or not, I feel that a better justification and subtext could have been written to allow for Freeza's growth. Something like the involvement of Champa. Maybe Freeza behind the scenes encountered the Universe 6 Hakaishin and negotiations happened where Freeza was allowed to be trained by Vados in exchange for the culinary products of his empire and assistance in locating the Super Dragon Balls. You an interesting relationship dynamic established there that sees the multiverse's characters embellished more while further reinforcing the moral neutrality of the Hakaishin in their allowance for a megalomaniacal sociopath like Freeza to be granted strength that could endanger the lives of billions if it benefits them personally.
You stole this one from the 2015 pre-Animated Golden Freeza arc fan theories right ( ͡❛ ‿‿ ͡❛)? Jokes aside, I 100% prefer this over the actual story, not only because imo it makes the Beerus & Champa rivalry more interesting and also makes a more interesting introduction for Champa, but also because it connects the Golden Freeza arc with the other 4 arcs in this big Multiverse saga. Fukkatsu no F in the way it is just falls completely lost in between BoG and Champa. We start with BoG where Goku fights a Hakaishin from his Universe, in the end revealing that there are other universes. Then Champa is the rivalry between two universes. Black is the threat from another universe, and the ToP is the Multiversal Survival Battle Royale. What Fukkatsu no F is about? Exactly, there's nothing regarding the Multiverse theme, adding Champa to the story and creating a connection between him and Freeza would've been a very interesting transiction between BoG and U6 tournament.
Nowadays I don't mind the way Freeza gets stronger, but it doesn't mean that I don't think it's ridiculous :lolno:
Cipher wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:23 am Starting the series off on so many rape/sexual harrassment jokes. You have no idea how often I see this posing a very, very understandable hurdle for curious 2020s readers on Reddit, etc. Almost all of the first arc's humor could also be restructured to work without them--see US TV edits of Episode 8, for example, which effortlessly recontextualizes that very funny comedy of errors from a plot about Oolong trying to feel Bulma up while she sleeps (yikes) to one about him trying to cop the Dragon Balls, which works just as well.
Scientist Fu wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:41 am In all seriousness, I will go with the sexual jokes, which the victims are always female characters (and kids or very young characters) for some reason (even in the fictional world they won't let them in peace), it always disturbed me since my youngest age.
Well, this isn't soooo "in-universe", but I couldn't agree less, I said this in a previous thread and I'm going to repeat it, I would love to say that DB is for all ages, but unfortunately I can't, surely there's blood and these stuff, but it's not a grotesque amount of blood as other japanese series do, or gore, so me it's fine kids watching it, but the sexual stuff? For me there's a moment in Super that show us a perfect example of how the sexual jokes could be without getting annoying. The episode where Jaco and Bulma travels to Zuno's planet and there's that joke about Bulma's boobs, and then the episode ends with her being tricked by Jaco as Goku reveals the secret, damn that me laugh tears. There was nothing explicit, nothing vulgar, it was just a simple joke.
I don't want to call the sexual moments of DB 84/86 as sexual jokes because for me they aren't jokes, they are fanservice
I can never forget some moments from the Yamcha and Goku battle in the 10th Animation Anniversary Movie, where their fight is happening, but then the camera suddenly cuts to Bulma's panties for no reason, like, was that meant to be funny?
There has been 5 years we don't see something explicit anymore, and I really don't miss it and hope it doesn't come back.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:54 pm The last panel in this page.
So there was a Future Trunks in Cell's timeline??

Sending Future Trunks to a timeline with doubles of himself also makes no sense when Cell's own timeline is lacking a Trunks.
Hellspawn28 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:16 pm Cell could have been talking about the current timeline. The spy bot in Goku's timeline saw Trunks fighting and probably wanted to collect Trunks DNA. It still surprises me that Cell only need the DNA of Goku and Vegeta. Having human figthers DNA would have been nice too.
Cipher wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:23 am That Cell timeline Trunks flub above. See also: Cell claiming the time machine was already set for the present year, followed by Piccolo's nonsensical assertion that it must have been because Trunks was coming back to tell them all he'd beaten the androids (a year before he'd even met them all?). Ignores the perfectly reasonable explanation that Cell might have picked that year deliberately to line his regrowth up with the androids' emergence, which would have been a matter of public history. All of this happens in one scene.
This one is so damn confusing for me that to this day I'm still not sure if I fully understand it or not
From what I get, doesn't Cell come from a timeline where he killed Mirai Trunks? Problem is, I can't remember if he was already around in his Imperfect from before Trunks was even born in the Alternate Future.
And about the time travel itself, Cell's personal explanation came before Piccolo's line, right? Then I have no idea :crazy:
Edit: I would like to see a reasonable explanation for Trunks saying Androids 19 and 20 tho :lol:
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Scientist Fu » Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:39 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:13 pmWell, I do have something bad for her...I think it was wrong giving her LSSJ form the same look as Broly's LSSJ but with lipstick and tits in the animated series, it's a fucking cartoon but seriously, Broly is logically a mountain of muscles in his LSSJ form because he already has defined muscles in his base and SSJ forms. Kale is skinny in her base form, then somehow she's muscular in her SSJ form but not Caulifla.
Idk I personally think they should've went with her comic LSSJ design (yeah it came after, but still :silent: )
I agree, giving the "LSSJ" form to Kale was not the best idea and they really tried to mimic M10 Broly in the anime and that ruined everything for me. Kale would be a much better character without the whole copy-of-Broly thing. That's why I prefer the manga version of Kale because she is her own character and she does not have that bulky form.
Well, this isn't soooo "in-universe", but I couldn't agree less, I said this in a previous thread and I'm going to repeat it, I would love to say that DB is for all ages, but unfortunately I can't, surely there's blood and these stuff, but it's not a grotesque amount of blood as other japanese series do, or gore, so me it's fine kids watching it, but the sexual stuff? For me there's a moment in Super that show us a perfect example of how the sexual jokes could be without getting annoying. The episode where Jaco and Bulma travels to Zuno's planet and there's that joke about Bulma's boobs, and then the episode ends with her being tricked by Jaco as Goku reveals the secret, damn that me laugh tears. There was nothing explicit, nothing vulgar, it was just a simple joke.
I don't want to call the sexual moments of DB 84/86 as sexual jokes because for me they aren't jokes, they are fanservice
I can never forget some moments from the Yamcha and Goku battle in the 10th Animation Anniversary Movie, where their fight is happening, but then the camera suddenly cuts to Bulma's panties for no reason, like, was that meant to be funny?
There has been 5 years we don't see something explicit anymore, and I really don't miss it and hope it doesn't come back.
For me, the worst part is when Roshi actually tries to "rape" someone in the ToP, I don't actually understand what's going on https://youtu.be/5CGx5XrgBrY
or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxlkwUL ... azuKishibe where General Blue is attracted to a children and even tries to kiss him... like, I don't know what the heck is wrong with people... I don't know how this is supposed to be funny or why is it even here in the first place...? it's just disturbing and evil. Also, Bulma who has to show her intimate part to convince Roshi or when Roshi grabs C-18's breast, all of those things are sickening me, it's disturbing, it's disgusting, it's everything but a joke.

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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Peril » Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:59 pm

My main gripe is how Beerus is the reason Freeza killed the Saiyans. It takes away Frieza's thunder, immensly so when Beerus becomes Goku's ally anyway. Beerus came off like a kid inserting their OC into the narrative in the most obnoxious way possible.
But don't Freeza also have his personal reasons for exterminating the Saiyans? The fear of the SSJs and all those stuff, like, I do understand your point, but am I missing something?
Freeza does have his own reasons but they are undermined by Beerus being the much bigger threat. If Freeza had no issue with the saiyan people, he would still have to destroy them all under Beerus's order. Therefore Freeza's thunder is stolen.

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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:56 pm

Future Trunks leaving the universe at the end of the Zamasu arc was a miss of an opportunity for the ToP in my opinion.
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:11 pm

Having Super Buu turning into Kid Buu is one of the series biggest plot holes, and they should have Buu turn back into Grey Buu instead.
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:00 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:11 pm Having Super Buu turning into Kid Buu is one of the series biggest plot holes, and they should have Buu turn back into Grey Buu instead.
Yeah Toriyama really made it confusing. Fat Buu gets rid of evil and it takes form of Grey Buu. Then the latter eats Fat Buu and becomes Super Buu. But after Super Buu loses Fat Buu he turns into...Kid Buu. It's been a while since i watched Buu arc, but what's the difference between Grey Buu and Kid Buu? Aren't they both supposed to be pure evil versions of Buu? Grey Buu seemed to still have inteligence gained from Kaioshin, while Kid Buu was completely pure form without any absorptions, but why eating Fat Buu and then losing him turns him into different form? They didn't merge, Fat Buu was literally eaten and alive as different being inside Grey (now Super) Buu's body. At what point evil side of Buu lost Kaioshin influence? Even if there is in-universe explanation for that, It's pretty clear Kid Buu wasn't planned and Toriyama was coming up with ideas on the go. Afterall, a fact Kid Buu was a real form wasn't brought up until he was a thing.
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:27 pm

In GT has a few that I can think of:

Goku never turn back into adult after the Black Star Dragon Ball hunt. If it was stated Porunga can't undo the action of the Black Star Dragon Balls than that would be fine. However, he was still able to wish back the Earth after the BSDB blew up the planet. Surely, they could have done something. Goku would have out live his wife, kids, and friends. It makes creepy to imagine Adult Chi Chi being in bed with kid Goku unless he goes SSj4.

Why would Baby need the Black Star Dragon Balls to wish back Planet Plant when he use the Earth Dragon Balls? He has Vegeta's body, he would know about them. He would have three wishes that he can make such as become ruler of the universe, become immortal, and wish back Planet Plant.

Dr. Gero and Dr. Myu decided to make a Super 17 instead just making a new original character? #17 is the one that killed Gero, so it sounds dumb to make another version of a character that killed him in the first place. 98% villains that escape from Hell are just killed off screen which feels like bad fan service to me. They could have done something different with the Fusion Reborn concept.

Some of the Shadow Dragons should have been born from other wishes. I'm surprise the wish to remove the bombs in #17 and #18 didn't give birth to anyone. That's probably consider to be a worse wish than wishing for underwear.
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Re: Worst decisions ever made

Post by Yuji » Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:41 pm

I understand Toriyama wants to tell concise and focused character-driven stories that rely on the main characters and a general guest character (Trunks, Merus, Granolah, 17, etc) to tag along each arc, and I appreciate that, but if that's the case then the scale of Super should be severely toned down.

Multiverses full of infinite possibilities, Timeline-altering threats, tournaments with the fate of existence at hand. These concepts set up a scope that Toriyama does not care to explore and will inevitably leave fans disappointed clamoring about "wasted potential," even if what is there is good and solid stuff. You can see that the scale has been reduced with the last two movies to focus on more tightly written and personal stories on Earth and yet a general sentiment persists that "the multiverse is being wasted" all because of the promises established long ago starting with the ending of BoG and the premises to the initial Super arcs.

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