Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

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Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Mon May 08, 2023 4:45 pm

Not only was Goku staying dead at the end of the Android arc a great send off for Goku but it was also the great culmination of his character up to that point.

Goku thinking the earth is safter without him, and passing down the torch to his son who developed into a better protector both physically and mentally than Goku can ever be which was what it seemed at the time, showed how wise Goku has become. As for why Gohan developed into a better protector that's because after Cell came back Goku gave Gohan, who gave up his will to fight, words of encouragement to revive his fighting spirit, which Gohan takes to heart and got back in the fight. This showed Goku what truly makes Gohan a better protector/person than himself which Goku himself admitted when he announced his decision to stay dead at the of the arc by saying Gohan is more reliable than him. Gohan was more reliable than Goku because, unlike Goku, he can eliminate what would hold him back from being a good protector. He won't spare villains and give them opportunities to cause disasters and he won't let his mistakes stop him from fighting the good fight. Gohan learned from toying around with Cell killing Goku to never give evils such as Cell the chance hence why he said he's happy Cell came back because he can kill him like he was meant to, a change in character that Goku cannot do undergo due to his pure Saiyan desire to fight stronger opponents. In short, Gohan not being a fighter at heart was what made him a better protector than Goku, who was a fighter at heart.
Although I have to admit this was ruined somewhat by Gohan toying around with Buu in the Buu arc and others reaching SSJ2 which was supposed to be Gohan's potential unlocked but those were after this so we don't have to count it. This analysis hopefully also proves that Dragon Ball should've ended at the Cell arc.

Goku's main reason for staying dead was because how much bad guy's he attracted that put danger to others. From Tao Pai Pai in the RRA arc, Tienshinhan/Shen, Piccolo, Saiyans, Frieza and finally to the Androids with the majority of them being global threats progressing to the Androids and by Android saga there was a whole universe of possibilities due to the Saiyans and Frieza. The Androids were key and had the biggest impact on Goku because they were created solely to kill Goku and did in alternate timelines while causing earth to be apocalyptic, they couldn't be sensed, came from a secret lab on earth and spied on Goku for years, surely these factors played in to Goku feeling the earth was safer without him, because he was responsible for the biggest and most unpredictable threat at that point. Goku's decision also satisfied his love for fighting, as the otherworld is full of powerful opponents who should be around Goku's strength. Although Goku won't see his friends and families grow and live out their lives, and will never return to the planet he loves, he was able to come up with an equilibrium between his desire to fight and his desire to protect the earth which showed a great deal of wisdom.

The main theme of Dragon Ball which is "There's always someone stronger" relates to Goku's decision to stay dead, because he believes that he could potentially attract a stronger villain. This is genius writing that turns what defines Goku's character on its head.

Goku's decision to stay dead corresponds perfectly with the theme of taking responsibility of one's actions can be rewarded which was present in Goku's development during the RRA arc. This also marked the growth and development of Goku coming full circle because the scale of the responsibility he took from childhood up until this point increased because of the RRA - from reviving a single man (Bora) to defending the planet, with the rewards he received corresponding with his growth - From meeting his grandpa to spending eternity doing the thing he loves with his mind at peace. It showed how selfless he's grown to be despite being unable to eliminate his selfish tendencies.

Goku was only able to find this balance by accepting himself like he did in the Saiyan/Frieza arc. If he continued to celebrate what he is after finding out he's a Saiyan by being overly proud of the perks being a Saiyan provided, he would've ignored his limitations due to his proudness and ended up thinking he doesn't need to stay dead and can happily defend against any strong threats that shows up. If he continued to loath what he is he would've referred to himself only as an earthling and not own up to what he is which would've lead to him not thinking too much on his limitations by ignoring what being a Saiyans means for him, leading to him not thinking the earth is better off without him. Accepting himself like he did was the result of his purity, the purity that is the central point of who he is no matter how much it conflicts with his feelings. His pure desire to fight.

Hopefully I convinced you that not only did Goku staying dead add depth to his character but provided a great culmination of his arc.
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 08, 2023 5:05 pm

I respectfully disagree with pretty much all of that.

Goku's character arc isn't about personal responsibility "I attract bad guys to earth" really doesn't gel with Mr. Please spare Vegeta so I can have a rematch some day Mr. I'll let Freeza power up to 100 percent to test my new strength as a Super Saiyan. Mr. Here's a senzu bean Cell so we can all see what my crotch spawn can really do. Guy would risk the whole earth being blown up if he could fight a really strong dude.

It really just feels like Toriyama felt like there was nowhere for Goku to go after winning the Tenkaichi Budokai and discovering his roots and avenging his people. So he decided to kill Goku off and let his son take over. Goku's sudden moment of clarity really does just feel like a justication to keep Goku out permanently (until he wasn't) so Gohan could become the new lead.

And I don't think Goku realized Gohan was a better person/protector than him because that's something Goku doesn't care enough about to begin with.


The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc, Freeza arc, and Boo arc are all just way better resolutions for Goku's character than the Cell arc which was just Toriyama awkwardly trying to switch protagonists out at the 11th hour

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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Mon May 08, 2023 5:13 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:05 pm I respectfully disagree with pretty much all of that.

Goku's character arc isn't about personal responsibility "I attract bad guys to earth" really doesn't gel with Mr. Please spare Vegeta so I can have a rematch some day Mr. I'll let Freeza power up to 100 percent to test my new strength as a Super Saiyan. Mr. Here's a senzu bean Cell so we can all see what my crotch spawn can really do. Guy would risk the whole earth being blown up if he could fight a really strong dude.
I think it does gel because like I said his Saiyan desire to fight overwrites his desire to protect earth but he still strongly wants to protect earth hence why he had to find a balance between the two by staying dead and making Gohan stronger than him. I explained in the analysis that the fact he would risk blowing up earth to fight a strong dude is why he stayed dead.
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by Zephyr » Mon May 08, 2023 5:13 pm

For Goku's excuse of "I attract the bad guys" to really track, it would have to be the case that, were you to replace Goku with (someone more like) Gohan, the bad guys wouldn't have showed up.

The Crane School showed up at the Tenkaichi Budokai because they wanted revenge on whoever 'killed' Tao Pai Pai. Piccolo showed up at the Tenkaichi Budokai because he wanted revenge on Goku for killing Piccolo Daimao. Dr. Gero made the artificial humans because he wanted revenge on Goku for defeating the Red Ribbon Army. Were (someone more like) Gohan in Goku's shoes during the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo Daimao arcs, then he, too, would have 'killed' Tao Pai Pai and Piccolo Daimao, and defeated the Red Ribbon Army. In these cases, it's not "Goku" attracting bad guys, it's people stopping bad guys attracting bad guys. Swapping out for (someone more like) Gohan does nothing to abate this.

For Raditz, that's definitely something Goku attracted, but it's not through any fault of his own. He didn't choose to be born a Saiyan or to be sent to Earth. Besides, let's say that Goku died and "passed the torch" to someone prior to Raditz's arrival; Raditz still would have arrived! So if there's anyone out there in space who wants to come to Earth because they know Goku was sent there as a baby, then swapping out for (someone more like) Gohan does nothing to abate this.

The only real case of "attracting a bad guy" that Goku's distinctly at fault for is Freeza after Namek. But even that's a little fuzzy. Goku did make a bunch of calls during his fight with Freeza in service of getting a good fight out of him after becoming a Super Saiyan, and Goku even tells Trunks that he let him go. But.......Goku still blasted the shit out of him after giving Freeza some energy. Bit of sloppy writing there, but I guess maybe Goku was implying that he held back during that final blast and knew that it didn't kill Freeza? The scene itself doesn't come off that way, with Goku's somber and disappointed expression. But either way, Freeza is the only real case we can point to of "Goku is the one attracting the bad guys", due to his own distinct actions and character.

Gohan, as The Earth's Protector™ is also going to stop bad guys, and these bad guys are going to seek revenge. Or their next of kin will. Or their associates will.

But all that to the side, I feel like the final battle with Cell showed quite the opposite of "Gohan is a reliable protector". Remember when Goku first had to be The Earth's Protector™? Do you remember him needing his hand held from the afterlife in order to get the job done? I don't. Gohan is a wild card whose full strength cannot be accessed reliably and at will. The Earth is lucky that Cell takes after Goku as much as he does, because a less battle-crazed villain wouldn't have sought to push Gohan's buttons to power him up. And after all was said and done, and he had his full strength, he still needed Goku's words of encouragement from the afterlife in order to seal the deal. I think that would be a pretty limp place to end the story. If Dragon Ball were to end with Gohan as the protagonist and The Earth's Protector™ with Goku dead and gone, then you would at least want one additional story where Gohan has actually proven himself. It's one thing for Gohan to struggle with something his first time, but if we want things to feel nice and tied up then it'd be more satisfying and conclusive if we see him grow past that. By the time Cell is killed, he hasn't grown past it, his flaws have only just been fully laid bare.

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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 08, 2023 5:25 pm

TheUltimateVegito wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:13 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:05 pm I respectfully disagree with pretty much all of that.

Goku's character arc isn't about personal responsibility "I attract bad guys to earth" really doesn't gel with Mr. Please spare Vegeta so I can have a rematch some day Mr. I'll let Freeza power up to 100 percent to test my new strength as a Super Saiyan. Mr. Here's a senzu bean Cell so we can all see what my crotch spawn can really do. Guy would risk the whole earth being blown up if he could fight a really strong dude.
I think it does gel because like I said his Saiyan desire to fight overwrites his desire to protect earth but he still strongly wants to protect earth hence why he had to find a balance between the two by staying dead and making Gohan stronger than him. I explained in the analysis that the fact he would risk blowing up earth to fight a strong dude is why he stayed dead.
But he never reached the moment of clarity. He never gave any indication that he realized he had a problem he was just "Yeah I attract bad guys and that matters to me now for some reason" and like Zephyr said that logic doesn't track because only the Saiyans came specifically because of Goku. Gero would have sought revenge on any do gooder that stopped the Red Ribbon Army. Daimao was gonna be a threat, Goku or no Goku and Junior would have gone after whatever hero killed Daimao.

Also as Zephyr pointed out if Goku had some sort of epiphany that Gohan was more suited as earth's protector...it's a pretty undeserved recognition. Gohan's hubris got the better of him and daddy had to bail him out.

Gohan may be a more noble person than Goku but he also showed more than once that he gets too cocky for his own good whenever he gets a little too much power. Something Piccolo finally had to call him out on in Super.

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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by Zephyr » Mon May 08, 2023 5:36 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:25 pmBut he never reached the moment of clarity. He never gave any indication that he realized he had a problem he was just "Yeah I attract bad guys and that matters to me now for some reason"
It might make more sense if Goku's epiphany was instead "I let bad people go in order to satisfy my thirst for a good fight, and bad things happen because of it, so maybe I should go to kung fu heaven where I can do this without endangering others".

Main problem with that, though, is that Gohan's now the strongest person he knows, including himself. So there's no more need to let strong baddies go and train for a rematch, because the perfect outlet lives right at home with him. Goku could even help him learn to control his power.

If that sounds eerily similar to how the manga actually ended, I don't completely think that's an accident. The main thing that would impede Goku training Gohan after the Cell Games would be that he's supposed to finally get on with his studies, though, so I prefer the "final antagonist's reincarnation as Goku's student" ending to this hypothetical one.

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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Mon May 08, 2023 5:43 pm

Zephyr wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:13 pm For Goku's excuse of "I attract the bad guys" to really track, it would have to be the case that, were you to replace Goku with (someone more like) Gohan, the bad guys wouldn't have showed up.

The Crane School showed up at the Tenkaichi Budokai because they wanted revenge on whoever 'killed' Tao Pai Pai. Piccolo showed up at the Tenkaichi Budokai because he wanted revenge on Goku for killing Piccolo Daimao. Dr. Gero made the artificial humans because he wanted revenge on Goku for defeating the Red Ribbon Army. Were (someone more like) Gohan in Goku's shoes during the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo Daimao arcs, then he, too, would have 'killed' Tao Pai Pai and Piccolo Daimao, and defeated the Red Ribbon Army. In these cases, it's not "Goku" attracting bad guys, it's people stopping bad guys attracting bad guys. Swapping out for (someone more like) Gohan does nothing to abate this.

For Raditz, that's definitely something Goku attracted, but it's not through any fault of his own. He didn't choose to be born a Saiyan or to be sent to Earth. Besides, let's say that Goku died and "passed the torch" to someone prior to Raditz's arrival; Raditz still would have arrived! So if there's anyone out there in space who wants to come to Earth because they know Goku was sent there as a baby, then swapping out for (someone more like) Gohan does nothing to abate this.

The only real case of "attracting a bad guy" that Goku's distinctly at fault for is Freeza after Namek. But even that's a little fuzzy. Goku did make a bunch of calls during his fight with Freeza in service of getting a good fight out of him after becoming a Super Saiyan, and Goku even tells Trunks that he let him go. But.......Goku still blasted the shit out of him after giving Freeza some energy. Bit of sloppy writing there, but I guess maybe Goku was implying that he held back during that final blast and knew that it didn't kill Freeza? The scene itself doesn't come off that way, with Goku's somber and disappointed expression. But either way, Freeza is the only real case we can point to of "Goku is the one attracting the bad guys", due to his own distinct actions and character.

Gohan, as The Earth's Protector™ is also going to stop bad guys, and these bad guys are going to seek revenge. Or their next of kin will. Or their associates will.

But all that to the side, I feel like the final battle with Cell showed quite the opposite of "Gohan is a reliable protector". Remember when Goku first had to be The Earth's Protector™? Do you remember him needing his hand held from the afterlife in order to get the job done? I don't. Gohan is a wild card whose full strength cannot be accessed reliably and at will. The Earth is lucky that Cell takes after Goku as much as he does, because a less battle-crazed villain wouldn't have sought to push Gohan's buttons to power him up. And after all was said and done, and he had his full strength, he still needed Goku's words of encouragement from the afterlife in order to seal the deal. I think that would be a pretty limp place to end the story. If Dragon Ball were to end with Gohan as the protagonist and The Earth's Protector™ with Goku dead and gone, then you would at least want one additional story where Gohan has actually proven himself. It's one thing for Gohan to struggle with something his first time, but if we want things to feel nice and tied up then it'd be more satisfying and conclusive if we see him grow past that. By the time Cell is killed, he hasn't grown past it, his flaws have only just been fully laid bare.
I don't think it needs to be something that requires only Goku because in the end he still attracted those guys and if another bad guy comes because of one of the Z-Fighters it's most likely to be Goku because of that especially if you add all those he attracted together. Plus this is mainly about how it affected Goku on a personal level, yes if someone else did it the same thing would happen but that's not what happened it was Goku at the end of the day so it makes the greater possibility of Goku attracting another very real. Also Gero proved that one seemingly minor person can make all the difference and Frieza proved the possibility of another one being attracted to Goku is at a universal level. I further explained why the Androids were key in my analysis.

Gohan isn't perfect but he's a still a better protector than Goku because, like I said in my analysis, he won't give bad guys the chance to cause a disaster. Gohan by the end of the Cell Games was able to reached his full strength at the time (or at least that was what it was supposed to be at the time) at will and even if he didn't he's still stronger than Goku. Yes he had Goku's help from the afterlife but that doesn't make him someone who can't defend the earth without that help so it's not that detrimental to the idea of Gohan being the protector.
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by Dr. Casey » Mon May 08, 2023 5:56 pm

Zephyr wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:13 pmThe Crane School showed up at the Tenkaichi Budokai because they wanted revenge on whoever 'killed' Tao Pai Pai. Piccolo showed up at the Tenkaichi Budokai because he wanted revenge on Goku for killing Piccolo Daimao. Dr. Gero made the artificial humans because he wanted revenge on Goku for defeating the Red Ribbon Army. Were (someone more like) Gohan in Goku's shoes during the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo Daimao arcs, then he, too, would have 'killed' Tao Pai Pai and Piccolo Daimao, and defeated the Red Ribbon Army. In these cases, it's not "Goku" attracting bad guys, it's people stopping bad guys attracting bad guys. Swapping out for (someone more like) Gohan does nothing to abate this.
Not that Goku's excuse would have worked very well anyway (it's lame regardless), but would any of those things have happened without Goku around? There weren't many people during the Dragon Ball era capable of getting rid of Tao Pai Pai or Piccolo Daimao, though Tenshinhan could have manhandled the Red Ribbon Army if he wanted. Though I'm not sure he would have wanted to since even though he wasn't quite as hermetic back then he was also a lot more of a douche himself.

Anyway, I'm a simple person. I'm glad about the decision for Goku to be revived because I'm happy that Goku was able to spend ten years with Goten and Chi-chi, and that the Sons were able to be a family of four for at least the first two of those years because I'm assuming Gohan didn't move out until at least 18.
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by Zephyr » Mon May 08, 2023 5:58 pm

TheUltimateVegito wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:43 pmGohan isn't perfect but he's a still a better protector than Goku because, like I said in my analysis, he won't give bad guys the chance to cause a disaster.
Cell very nearly destroyed Earth because Gohan was too busy toying with Cell to end the fight right away. His first stint as The World's Strongest™ and he already gave the bad guy the chance to cause a disaster.

The only reason Earth didn't get destroyed was because Goku was there.
Dr. Casey wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:56 pmNot that Goku's excuse would have worked very well anyway (it's lame regardless), but would any of those things have happened without Goku around? There weren't many people during the Dragon Ball era capable of getting rid of Tao Pai Pai or Piccolo Daimao, though Tenshinhan could have manhandled the Red Ribbon Army if he wanted. Though I'm not sure he would have wanted to since even though he wasn't quite as hermetic back then he was also a lot more of a douche himself.
Yeah that's a fair point, I neglected to include it in my initial reply. It's definitely likely that had Goku not been around, then the Crane School and Piccolo might not have crashed the tournaments, and Gero might never have created the artificial humans, because, as you suggest, nobody would have stopped them in the first place!

Without Goku there, the Red Ribbon Army probably would have taken over the world. Or Piccolo would have. Instead, someone was there to stop them, and it was Goku. Goku's claim that he's a bad guy magnet only works insofar as bad guys tend to be Goku magnets.
Last edited by Zephyr on Mon May 08, 2023 6:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 08, 2023 5:59 pm

TheUltimateVegito wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:43 pm .

Gohan isn't perfect but he's a still a better protector than Goku because, like I said in my analysis, he won't give bad guys the chance to cause a disaster.
Image

Goku will risk the bad guy being too powerful because he wanted to test his own strength.

Gohan will risk getting bested by a bad guy weaker than him because he was too busy swinging his dick

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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Mon May 08, 2023 6:06 pm

Zephyr wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:58 pm
TheUltimateVegito wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:43 pmGohan isn't perfect but he's a still a better protector than Goku because, like I said in my analysis, he won't give bad guys the chance to cause a disaster.
Cell very nearly destroyed Earth because Gohan was too busy toying with Cell to end the fight right away. His first stint as The World's Strongest™ and he already gave the bad guy the chance to cause a disaster.

The only reason Earth didn't get destroyed was because Goku was there.
That was a mistake Gohan vowed not to repeat hence why he was happy that Cell came back so that he can kill him the way he was supposed to. Goku would never undergo this kind of change hence why Gohan was a better protector than him. I said as much in my analysis.
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by Zephyr » Mon May 08, 2023 6:12 pm

TheUltimateVegito wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:06 pmThat was a mistake Gohan vowed not to repeat hence why he was happy that Cell came back so that he can kill him the way he was supposed to. Goku would never undergo this kind of change hence why Gohan was a better protector than him. I said as much in my analysis.
And now we're going in circles. Because as I've already said, the way he ended up killing Cell in the end was by having his hand held. Which should inspire zero confidence, particularly when comparing him to Goku. Which is why I wouldn't have found the story ending right after that remotely satisfying.

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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Mon May 08, 2023 6:16 pm

Zephyr wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:12 pm
TheUltimateVegito wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:06 pmThat was a mistake Gohan vowed not to repeat hence why he was happy that Cell came back so that he can kill him the way he was supposed to. Goku would never undergo this kind of change hence why Gohan was a better protector than him. I said as much in my analysis.
And now we're going in circles. Because as I've already said, the way he ended up killing Cell in the end was by having his hand held. Which should inspire zero confidence, particularly when comparing him to Goku. Which is why I wouldn't have found the story ending right after that remotely satisfying.
I think zero confidence is a stretch. Let's not forget that for Cell to have been defeated Gohan had to have been much more powerful than Goku meaning there's a good chance Gohan won't need Goku's help like that again. Dragon Ball fights are usually about who's more powerful after all.
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 08, 2023 6:32 pm

Let’s be honest, the whole “I attract bad guys so the world would be safer without me” argument is little more than a flimsy excuse from Toriyama to keep Goku dead. He definitely did not attract Pilaf, the RRA or Piccolo Daimao, and people like Ma Junior and Dr. Gero went after him out of revenge over him having stopped the previous aforementioned villains. It’s a stretch to say that the world was worse off because of Goku.

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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by ABED » Mon May 08, 2023 6:38 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:32 pm Let’s be honest, the whole “I attract bad guys so the world would be safer without me” argument is little more than a flimsy excuse from Toriyama to keep Goku dead. He definitely did not attract Pilaf, the RRA or Piccolo Daimao, and people like Ma Junior and Dr. Gero went after him out of revenge over him having stopped the previous aforementioned villains. It’s a stretch to say that the world was worse off because of Goku.
I think we're being too literal.

Piccolo Daimao was a result of Pilaf wanting something sufficiently powerful after having lost to Goku and his friends.

In regards to the point of the thread, a good arc for a character like Goku who is out there to get as strong as he can is to pass on his knowledge. Staying dead keeps him in his younger body forever so there's no real growth.
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon May 08, 2023 8:05 pm

I agree. Goku finally managed to become the strongest in the universe after beating Freeza, and in the Cell Saga he was focused on passing the torch. It’s the same idea as the real ending, but with a good excuse to keep the story going without Goku.
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 08, 2023 8:13 pm

TheUltimateVegito wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:16 pm
Zephyr wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:12 pm
TheUltimateVegito wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:06 pmThat was a mistake Gohan vowed not to repeat hence why he was happy that Cell came back so that he can kill him the way he was supposed to. Goku would never undergo this kind of change hence why Gohan was a better protector than him. I said as much in my analysis.
And now we're going in circles. Because as I've already said, the way he ended up killing Cell in the end was by having his hand held. Which should inspire zero confidence, particularly when comparing him to Goku. Which is why I wouldn't have found the story ending right after that remotely satisfying.
I think zero confidence is a stretch. Let's not forget that for Cell to have been defeated Gohan had to have been much more powerful than Goku meaning there's a good chance Gohan won't need Goku's help like that again.
Yeah and Cell still almost blew up the whole earth despite Gohan being more powerful.

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ABED
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by ABED » Mon May 08, 2023 9:43 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 8:05 pm I agree. Goku finally managed to become the strongest in the universe after beating Freeza, and in the Cell Saga he was focused on passing the torch. It’s the same idea as the real ending, but with a good excuse to keep the story going without Goku.
Not what I was getting at. I have zero interest in DB without Goku. That wouldn't be Dragon Ball. I also don't care about passing the torch. I'm talking about him teaching. It's a different journey for him and forwards HIS story about growth.
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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by Majin Buu » Tue May 09, 2023 11:14 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 8:05 pm I agree. Goku finally managed to become the strongest in the universe after beating Freeza, and in the Cell Saga he was focused on passing the torch. It’s the same idea as the real ending, but with a good excuse to keep the story going without Goku.
Goku's attempts at passing the torch didn't work out in the end though. Trying it with Gohan resulted in his own death and Gohan wound up slacking off in the 7 year interim; and trying it with Trunks and Goten instead of killing Buu when he had the chance resulted in pretty much everyone dying because he didn't take into account how young, inexperienced, and immature Trunks and Goten were (And how could he? He had only known Goten and this Trunks for a couple hours at that point).

Toriyama mentioned in an interview that he redid the ending for the Kanzenban to indicate that Goku's battles were over and the next generation was taking over. I think the subtext of that statement is that Toriyama never wanted Dragon Ball to continue without Goku, probably because the one time he tried doing that, he couldn't make it work.

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Re: Goku Staying Dead Was Perfect

Post by Zephyr » Tue May 09, 2023 11:21 am

TheUltimateVegito wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:16 pmI think zero confidence is a stretch. Let's not forget that for Cell to have been defeated Gohan had to have been much more powerful than Goku meaning there's a good chance Gohan won't need Goku's help like that again. Dragon Ball fights are usually about who's more powerful after all.
I'm sorry, I just can't take that on faith alone. For me to have confidence that Gohan can access his full power when needed, and to be able to finish a fight all on his own in the future, I'm going to need to see it actually happen first. Even though Goku says that Gohan is more dependable than him, Gohan himself doesn't agree!

Besides, we know that Gohan doesn't end up training in order to be able to better access his power. He spends 7 years focusing on his studies. Which is exactly what we should expect to happen, given the things his parents say during the Cell arc. After Goku wakes up and asks Chichi if he can take Gohan with him, she says "once this is over, I won't let you interfere in his studies again". When Goku gives up against Cell and tags Gohan in, he says "Bring peace back to the world. You want to grow up to be a scientist, don't you?" Gohan isn't picking up this imaginary mantle as the Earth's regular protector or anything, he's doing this one fight to being peace so that he can focus on his studies and (eventually) career.

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