Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JoeCapricorn » Fri May 19, 2023 1:14 pm

The panel where Piccolo says "Make it so" made me imagine Piccolo as the captain of the Enterprise NCC 1701-D

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri May 19, 2023 1:29 pm

Come to think of it, wasn't Goku already so deep into his Ultra Instinct training that he could dodge Granola's attacks in base when Vegeta was needing Super Saiyan? Obviously this doesn't mean Base Goku was anywhere near SSJ Vegeta (That was just reflexes, and Goku even got shot down) but it just makes this whole scene, specially Vegeta having the upperhand in this fight, even more confusing.

In the movie it was more acceptable because the movie's story stood on it's own. We just caught a glimpse of whatever Goku and Vegeta were doing at the time. In the serialization it's part of a on-going development we've been following each month. There's no ignoring this as a side story.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri May 19, 2023 1:29 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 12:33 pm
LightBing wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 12:06 pm Arguably Manga Goku already digressed in the ToP arc, then he had to be reminded of all he learned to get back on track.
There's a difference between intentionally showing a character has forgotten lessons from a decade ago in-universe because the kind of enemies he fights forced him to shift his focusz, and the author just forgetting about the themes of the previous three story arcs.
Whis was included in those lessons. What's the difference? The author(s) aren't forgetting themes, they have no finish line. Goku has been dragging UI forever, flip flopping about.
What happened in ToP is the same as in this chapter, the difference is the elegance. Which honestly, for me makes it forgiving since it pulled other characters and is contextualized in a desperate situation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri May 19, 2023 2:12 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:15 am People are reading way too much into the Broly recap if they think it's trying to imply events happened differently in the manga. Story beats are depicted the same as in the film; Goku and Vegeta still look like they start out taking turns in the fight. The main difference is in clothing/appearance at points, but this is something that's never been consistent between Toyotaro's own depictions of the movie. He's just drawing the CliffsNotes version.

Where this chapter actually falls short, as was mentioned, is grouping Broly, Moro, Gas and Freeza in with Jiren's relaxed fighting style. The problem isn't only that it makes no sense for certain characters (Broly being the biggest sore thumb here) but mainly that it obfuscates some of Jiren's own uniqueness. I'll assume it's just an awkward oversight from Toyotaro in a misguided attempt to acknowledge continuity.

Otherwise, this continues to be a faithful adaptation of Super Hero with minor differences and additions. Everything I liked and didn't like about the movie is here, although the framing of specific scenes is noticeably inferior. Its biggest fault is that most of it covers a portion of the film I wasn't particularly keen on, and that's no fault of the manga specifically.

My favorite part of this chapter is the Oracle Fish.
Are story beats really the same?

Based on this chapter, my understanding is that base Broly - without going berserk - catches up to Goku and Vegeta. And as he’s about to go berserk (which in the movie he goes after Vegeta almost kills him), Freeza kills Paragus to trigger a power-up.

In the movie, as I said, Broly first goes berserk (with his Great Ape in humanoid form power-up) and later Paragus fears that he will die in the fight with Goku. Freeza remembers that rage triggers Super Saiyan and tests his theory.

I think it is quite different, but maybe that’s just Toyotaro speeding it up without having to go too much into detail, but I wouldn’t fully buy this. He could have shown the exact same dialogue as in the movie, with Goku fighting the enraged Broly etc.

To me this feels different… yet Toyotaro also depicted the same scenario and battle damage for Goku (and his rasengan-like move) so maybe I am wrong.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri May 19, 2023 3:01 pm

Alkiser wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:49 am Nah Jiren in the manga doesn't seem to be anyone special like in the anime
You'd do well to revisit the manga arc, then, since Jiren's fighting style is only explicitly mentioned there and not in the anime where his power is maximum or whatever.

Don't even get me started on the vast characterization differences.
emperior wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:12 pm Based on this chapter, my understanding is that base Broly - without going berserk - catches up to Goku and Vegeta.
Nah, it's such a snappy recap that it's not going to dwell on minuscule details like that. We can't actually see Broly's irises during his fight with Goku until Paragus is already dead, and by the time we do, they're visibly berserk. His hair doesn't stand up, but Toyotaro isn't consistent with appearances anyway — recall his other Broly recap in 2019's bonus chapter where Goku isn't even wearing his movie gi and has no battle damage during the fusion, unlike this recap.

He's just trying to make that story as compact and as efficient as possible within four pages. Even if he's taking a few artistic liberties to do so, there's no way in hell he intended the audience to overthink it as some unique take. It's still a skipped movie that never got a proper comicalized adaptation.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Fri May 19, 2023 3:49 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:01 pm
Alkiser wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:49 am Nah Jiren in the manga doesn't seem to be anyone special like in the anime
You'd do well to revisit the manga arc, then, since Jiren's fighting style is only explicitly mentioned there and not in the anime where his power is maximum or whatever.

Don't even get me started on the vast characterization differences.
emperior wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:12 pm Based on this chapter, my understanding is that base Broly - without going berserk - catches up to Goku and Vegeta.
Nah, it's such a snappy recap that it's not going to dwell on minuscule details like that. We can't actually see Broly's irises during his fight with Goku until Paragus is already dead, and by the time we do, they're visibly berserk. His hair doesn't stand up, but Toyotaro isn't consistent with appearances anyway — recall his other Broly recap in 2019's bonus chapter where Goku isn't even wearing his movie gi and has no battle damage during the fusion, unlike this recap.

He's just trying to make that story as compact and as efficient as possible within four pages. Even if he's taking a few artistic liberties to do so, there's no way in hell he intended the audience to overthink it as some unique take. It's still a skipped movie that never got a proper comicalized adaptation.

Anime Jiren
- Meditates when he doesn't have to fight
- Has his own unique fighting style
- his strength is enhanced
- he has this eye technique of his that has knocked Goku down many times

Manga Jiren
- fights from the beginning of the tournament which showed that he did not spare his strength
- shows nothing special
- he is simply strong
- He scolds Goku for following Roshi's teachings
- He didn't meditate
- it's just strong and that's it

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri May 19, 2023 4:03 pm

Alkiser wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:49 pm
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:01 pm
Alkiser wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:49 am Nah Jiren in the manga doesn't seem to be anyone special like in the anime
You'd do well to revisit the manga arc, then, since Jiren's fighting style is only explicitly mentioned there and not in the anime where his power is maximum or whatever.

Don't even get me started on the vast characterization differences.
emperior wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:12 pm Based on this chapter, my understanding is that base Broly - without going berserk - catches up to Goku and Vegeta.
Nah, it's such a snappy recap that it's not going to dwell on minuscule details like that. We can't actually see Broly's irises during his fight with Goku until Paragus is already dead, and by the time we do, they're visibly berserk. His hair doesn't stand up, but Toyotaro isn't consistent with appearances anyway — recall his other Broly recap in 2019's bonus chapter where Goku isn't even wearing his movie gi and has no battle damage during the fusion, unlike this recap.

He's just trying to make that story as compact and as efficient as possible within four pages. Even if he's taking a few artistic liberties to do so, there's no way in hell he intended the audience to overthink it as some unique take. It's still a skipped movie that never got a proper comicalized adaptation.

Anime Jiren
- Meditates when he doesn't have to fight
- Has his own unique fighting style
- his strength is enhanced
- he has this eye technique of his that has knocked Goku down many times

Manga Jiren
- fights from the beginning of the tournament which showed that he did not spare his strength
- shows nothing special
- he is simply strong
- He scolds Goku for following Roshi's teachings
- He didn't meditate
- it's just strong and that's it
While you are right, manga Jiren indeed states that he never makes wasted movements, which compliments Vegeta's later assession, while anime Jiren is consistently stated to be "strong, plain and simple" with never-ending powerups. That being said, his anime counterpart does indeed have a more unique fighting style.

Seems to me that they swapped the character's philosophy or presentation between mediums (either way works). To me, if we took both incarnations of the character, we get a martial artist that is both unsurmountably strong and such a skilled fighter that he can be said to never waste energy on unnecessary movements, which makes him hit way beyond his regular weight class.

Which fits Jiren to a tee, IMO.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri May 19, 2023 4:07 pm

In DBS: Broly Toriyama has Vegeta say that Broly studied how to use his power during their fight. Toyotaro is pulling from the written canon by Toriyama himself. Even has Toriyama approve the manga script. It is purposely done for exactness to include Broly in how to wield power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri May 19, 2023 4:34 pm

There was so much drama about Goku's meditation line in the movie that Toyotaro got rid of that and now says Broly, who can't fight without getting angry (which by the way is proven again in this same chapter), is better in managing his emotions than Vegeta. :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ATA » Fri May 19, 2023 4:44 pm

Alkiser wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 1:09 pm
ATA wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 11:56 am =
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 11:21 am
I could swear Goku said the same thing to Vegeta when he left the Room of Spirit and Time for the first time. Super Saiyan Full Power was basically the result of that principle. Like, it almost seems to be nod to that scene, as if Vegeta is getting his revenge for being scolded.
Image

This not even including Korin The Cat, Mr.Popo and Kami, King Kai, and Master Roshi(in the manga) teaching him this.
The context of all this is quite different

In one case it's about molding and adapting a super saiyan body, and in the other it's simply training without much purpose without even tiring his body too much because it's simple friendly sparring with Broly and then Vegeta and not catcalling himself ussj in a chamber with 10 times the gravity.

But Goku has learned it in the context Whis and Vegeta is talking about as well.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kazuya Mishima » Fri May 19, 2023 8:40 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 12:42 pm This arc will take 20,000 years to be done with.
The predictions on the first page had a few of us saying yeah, we'll get to see Gohan fight or about to fight in this one, at least the cliffhanger will be it... lol not even close. The new Black Freeza arc will debut in 2030.

I do wonder what's the point behind all of this, from their perspective. I mean, wouldn't the audience be slightly moving away from this for a while? and A WHILE actually being a big chunk of the year. it's like those sitcom episodes where they recap old situations, skipping this is a no-brainer.
It seems odd that you appear to be criticising the manga for taking too long in telling a story that's already been told because you're waiting for the story to move on to another story that features Frieza for the umpteenth time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat May 20, 2023 4:36 am

I suggest to reread the Moro arc, particularly the training with the Yardrats. You'll see how CH. 93 coincides with the rest of the story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sat May 20, 2023 6:12 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:23 pm Oh so they did release something for Goku Day. Nice.

My prediction: This chapter will be dedicated to exposition on Beerus' planet. We just go back to Earth to see Piccolo and Bulma getting their wishes. Maybe Piccolo going to the RRA too and leaving with the big guy to get Pan.
Eerily accurate. Good chapter though. At this point, I was defending this arc for mostly being a facsimile of the movie, but now I'm ready for some shake-ups. I like how certain things are being fleshed out, such as the detail of Trunks overhearing Bulma talking to Piccolo but I fear we'll be here another 4 to 5 months with barely any significant changes at this rate.

IMO, they butchered the events of the Broly movie. No Beets, no Ikari form for Broly, no Vampa beast, no mention of Cheelai saving Broly from Gogeta, and all the other missing parts. They might as well have just dedicated the full chapter the to Broly movie or left it alone. The manga can't stand on its own being written like this.
Yuji wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 12:25 pm Looks like there are no colour tones used for ultimate Piccolo. I wonder how Toyotaro will make the distinction in the future for when he activates the form? Just the aura?
Ultimate Piccolo becomes a smooth smooth lineless man. Will probably give him those shiny highlights too, kinda like what Golden Frieza gets but toned down. Will also prob change the belt color to black like in the movie (which hopefully results in a gag of Piccolo having to explain)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Sat May 20, 2023 7:21 pm

Lumping Gas, Broly and Moro with Jiren as guys who had better control over their emotions than Vegeta and Goku is plain stupid. The former two were literally fighting morons who raged and went berserk and were carried only by their sheer strength, while the latter ended up becoming a brain-dead literal mountain, because he couldn't handle angelic powers.

However, I don't think Vegeta's meditation and Cell arc Goku's method are a contradiction.

In the Cell arc, Goku tells Vegeta that overstressing his body in Super Saiyan form is not good and that he needs to relax and get accustomed with the form, but it's ultimately still physical in nature, since the point is to reduce stress from the body.
The meditation technique that Vegeta is following has to do with his mind becoming clear and keeping control of emotions during battle, which is mentally in nature.

What I don't get is how this will help Vegeta with Ultra Ego, since the whole point of the form is to have the body take a lot of abuse. I guess it would help with the whole "keeping his mind only on Destruction", as Beerus put it, but how it would translate in actual battle, I have a hard time seeing.

Interestingly, I think Goku training wrong fits his evolution of Ultra Instinct in the manga, since he used Omen against both Moro and Gas, in order to bypass the requirement of a serene mind that the form needs to work at its full capability and allow his emotions to run wild. And while it worked out in the end, he never really got the hang of using it to its full potential.

In the anime he's also shown losing his cool against Jiren in Ultra Instinct and also fails to turn the form on in the Broly movie, when powering up to Blue, showing he's still not in complete control of his emotions, so the movies fits well too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Sat May 20, 2023 8:04 pm

Me in 2013: I would like if they explain a bit more how things work, like transformations, powers, techniques, etc.
Me in 2023: DON'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING EVER AGAIN PLEASE!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Sun May 21, 2023 5:12 am

Draconic wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:21 pm Lumping Gas, Broly and Moro with Jiren as guys who had better control over their emotions than Vegeta and Goku is plain stupid. The former two were literally fighting morons who raged and went berserk and were carried only by their sheer strength, while the latter ended up becoming a brain-dead literal mountain, because he couldn't handle angelic powers.

However, I don't think Vegeta's meditation and Cell arc Goku's method are a contradiction.

In the Cell arc, Goku tells Vegeta that overstressing his body in Super Saiyan form is not good and that he needs to relax and get accustomed with the form, but it's ultimately still physical in nature, since the point is to reduce stress from the body.
The meditation technique that Vegeta is following has to do with his mind becoming clear and keeping control of emotions during battle, which is mentally in nature.

What I don't get is how this will help Vegeta with Ultra Ego, since the whole point of the form is to have the body take a lot of abuse. I guess it would help with the whole "keeping his mind only on Destruction", as Beerus put it, but how it would translate in actual battle, I have a hard time seeing.

Interestingly, I think Goku training wrong fits his evolution of Ultra Instinct in the manga, since he used Omen against both Moro and Gas, in order to bypass the requirement of a serene mind that the form needs to work at its full capability and allow his emotions to run wild. And while it worked out in the end, he never really got the hang of using it to its full potential.

In the anime he's also shown losing his cool against Jiren in Ultra Instinct and also fails to turn the form on in the Broly movie, when powering up to Blue, showing he's still not in complete control of his emotions, so the movies fits well too.
Nah Ultra Ego is about getting stronger by igniting your fighting spirit, not by receiving damage, which Vegeta erroneously did because he ignited his fighting spirit by stimulating his body with the damage he received.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sun May 21, 2023 5:30 am

Kazuya Mishima wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:40 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 12:42 pm This arc will take 20,000 years to be done with.
The predictions on the first page had a few of us saying yeah, we'll get to see Gohan fight or about to fight in this one, at least the cliffhanger will be it... lol not even close. The new Black Freeza arc will debut in 2030.

I do wonder what's the point behind all of this, from their perspective. I mean, wouldn't the audience be slightly moving away from this for a while? and A WHILE actually being a big chunk of the year. it's like those sitcom episodes where they recap old situations, skipping this is a no-brainer.
It seems odd that you appear to be criticising the manga for taking too long in telling a story that's already been told because you're waiting for the story to move on to another story that features Frieza for the umpteenth time.
Its not odd at all. If the current manga story was a new story involving all the same people, these complaints wouldnt exist. Its not the recycling of characters thats irritating, its the literal, fascimile of a story we’ve already seen, and already know exactly what happens. Its a very stark and clear difference.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun May 21, 2023 10:37 am

Did anybody else notice Vegeta doesn’t have the Hakai earring and Goku doesn’t have Whis’ symbol on shirt? Does that mean anything?

Btw, I never noticed Goku went back to wearing his “Go” costume until now. In the Cell and Boo Sagas he didn’t have a Kanji in his shirt.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kazuya Mishima » Sun May 21, 2023 10:56 am

picc wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 5:30 amIts not odd at all. If the current manga story was a new story involving all the same people, these complaints wouldnt exist. Its not the recycling of characters thats irritating, its the literal, fascimile of a story we’ve already seen, and already know exactly what happens. Its a very stark and clear difference.
Well it's just the same in reverse. We read the manga and then watch an anime adaptation tell the same story we all know for several months.

Just this time the anime came first and then the manga.

Why are people so bothered about the Super anime coming back and adapting Moro and Granolah when we know that story already.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 93 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun May 21, 2023 12:46 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:37 am Btw, I never noticed Goku went back to wearing his “Go” costume until now. In the Cell and Boo Sagas he didn’t have a Kanji in his shirt.
In the DBS anime/movies, he never used the one without the kanji again. In the manga he's only using this one in the retellings to match the movie versions.
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