Does Toriyama regret the racist caricatures he included

[Cure Dragon 255]

I read in a thread I made that believe it or not Toriyama Actually did modify one of his manga to remove the racist caricatures he included. This is very interesting to hear. I would share the quote but I would like it if the member who brought that up quoted it here since I dont want to take credit for their discovery.

[coola]

To think anime made some stuff even more eyebrow raising, like giving Black Sanbō (Staff Officer) title or making General Blue pedophile... I also wonder, if he regrets making Lady Red? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaqepnU-Ft8

[goku the krump dancer]

There's no real way of knowing unless he's asked in an interview and he gives a straight forward answer.. and I dont ever see that happening since most people dont treat it like a big deal. (Because it isnt honestly, in the grand scheme of things)

The closest answer we'd get is if it was his idea to redesign Officer Black in Path to Power.

[coola]

The closest answer we'd get is if it was his idea to redesign Officer Black in Path to Power.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/villa ... 0530042003 And whose idea it was to give that look to Sergeant Metallic instead?

[goku the krump dancer]

The closest answer we'd get is if it was his idea to redesign Officer Black in Path to Power.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/villa ... 0530042003 And whose idea it was to give that look to Sergeant Metallic instead?

So I guess we'll just never know..

That being said though, I completely forgot that he even looked like that in the movie, thats how much of a non factor it really is. I guess for what its worth, we had multiple representations of black folk in a DB movie long before the recent manga stuff... so... progress?

The lips thing is a bit jarring only in comparison to the other characters as a bi-product of Toriyama's simplistic art style. The pink lips is an ugly design choice across the board because it stands out too much, its as ugly on Officer Black as it is on second form Cell, as it is on Pikkon, as it is on the Fire and Ice Dragons, Had they colored the lips a shade or two lighter or darker in respective to said characters skin tone it'd be much easier on the eyes.

Regardless in reality yes black folks tend to have fuller (bigger) lips than other ethnic groups anyway, so to me it seems like more of an attention to detail thing, than it is some "ingrained racist micro-aggression". Hell to this day black characters are still sometimes drawn with fuller lips.

[Majin Buu]

Regardless in reality yes black folks tend to have fuller (bigger) lips than other ethnic groups anyway, so to me it seems like more of an attention to detail thing, than it is some "ingrained racist micro-aggression". Hell to this day black characters are still sometimes drawn with fuller lips.

For once, I agree with you. With Adjutant Black, I find the fact that he's a black guy named "Black" the most problematic thing about him, not his design (and even then, I only find that mildly problematic at best).

Frankly, I think people are too quick to scream "blackface" whenever black characters are drawn with fuller lips and don't think about whether the intent is to mock black people or not (and it's usually pretty obvious when it's being done with racist intent).

[Shaddy]

I'm pretty sure the only thing Toriyama regrets doing is stuff that increased the workload of writing and drawing the series. He absolutely does not give a fuck about the implications of anything he's made, I think.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't know if he regrets it but at the very least he seemed to have stopped doing it*


*I assume he designed Pan's teacher and Chok and Rulah

[Zephyr]

I really doubt he regrets it, or even thinks much of it. I'd assume any designs that got changed to involve less racist caricaturing was due to external pressure and backlash, rather than out of any genuine remorse.

Regardless in reality yes black folks tend to have fuller (bigger) lips than other ethnic groups anyway, so to me it seems like more of an attention to detail thing, than it is some "ingrained racist micro-aggression". Hell to this day black characters are still sometimes drawn with fuller lips.

Frankly, I think people are too quick to scream "blackface" whenever black characters are drawn with fuller lips and don't think about whether the intent is to mock black people or not (and it's usually pretty obvious when it's being done with racist intent).

Drawing a character, even a black character, with fuller lips wouldn't raise any red flags to me, in a vacuum, if I was completely unaware of the history of racism and animation. It can be worth asking why certain things happen the way they do.

Sure, it's 'attention to detail', but attention to what detail? Why emphasize one detail rather than another? Why are black peoples' lips the ones that tend to be emphasized in art more frequently, when white peoples' lips can also stand out against their skin tone? Why was this detail so salient to white animators? Would black characters in the past have been drawn with emphasis placed on their lips had anti-Black racism not been so normalized in society, and had that not been a prevalent feature of racist caricatures? Would black characters today still sometimes be drawn with emphasis placed on their lips had such emphasis not been so prevalent during the golden age of animation?

It's possible to employ something that has its historical roots in racist caricaturing without any knowledge of its history and without any ill intent.

[eledoremassis02]

I really doubt he regrets it, or even thinks much of it. I'd assume any designs that got changed to involve less racist caricaturing was due to external pressure and backlash, rather than out of any genuine remorse.

Regardless in reality yes black folks tend to have fuller (bigger) lips than other ethnic groups anyway, so to me it seems like more of an attention to detail thing, than it is some "ingrained racist micro-aggression". Hell to this day black characters are still sometimes drawn with fuller lips.

Frankly, I think people are too quick to scream "blackface" whenever black characters are drawn with fuller lips and don't think about whether the intent is to mock black people or not (and it's usually pretty obvious when it's being done with racist intent).

Drawing a character, even a black character, with fuller lips wouldn't raise any red flags to me, in a vacuum, if I was completely unaware of the history of racism and animation. It can be worth asking why certain things happen the way they do.

Sure, it's 'attention to detail', but attention to what detail? Why emphasize one detail rather than another? Why are black peoples' lips the ones that tend to be emphasized in art more frequently, when white peoples' lips can also stand out against their skin tone? Why was this detail so salient to white animators? Would black characters in the past have been drawn with emphasis placed on their lips had anti-Black racism not been so normalized in society, and had that not been a prevalent feature of racist caricatures? Would black characters today still sometimes be drawn with emphasis placed on their lips had such emphasis not been so prevalent during the golden age of animation?

It's possible to employ something that has its historical roots in racist caricaturing without any knowledge of its history and without any ill intent.

Thats an amazing find! The first time I head about Toriyama chaning anything was him changing drawings in the 80s, and it seems he changed things as far as 1995.

I am glad you brought up racist caricaturing without any knowledge of its history because I have seen that time and time again with depictions of Native Americans in places like Japan and even in the U.S with little to no backlash.

That said, it does make Popo more interesting. I looked up his concept designs and noticed a more finalized popo didnt have the pointed ears and I wonder if that was his remedy?

[Majin Buu]

It's possible to employ something that has its historical roots in racist caricaturing without any knowledge of its history and without any ill intent.

Very true.

But I think there's a difference between racist caricaturing and simply depicting a black person, so I take these things on a case by case basis. If a design is problematic in some minor way but I can't find any racist intent present, then I tend to be more lenient.

[MasenkoHA]

It's possible to employ something that has its historical roots in racist caricaturing without any knowledge of its history and without any ill intent.

Very true.

But I think there's a difference between racist caricaturing and simply depicting a black person, so I take these things on a case by case basis. If a design is problematic in some minor way but I can't find any racist intent present, then I tend to be more lenient.

I think the oversized red lips on black characters are more innocently insensitive than anything.

We're not talking old Warner Bros cartoons or Funimation
making Killa incomphensible

[ATA]

As a Afro-Baltimorean, drawing Black characters with bigger lips isn't a problem. It's the exaggeration of it. It's like the artist WANTS you to know the lips are big because the character is Black rather than just letting be big. How I know this? Just look at Uub/Oob. A darker skin toned character. Now a lot of Black fans assumed he was Black(Specifically a type of African) because he's the closest thing we had to an important DB character. However most likely he's South Asian. Guess what Uub/Oob don't have? Them exaggerated lips. So Toriayma clearly knew when he wanted to draw a darker skin toned character with big lips.

Sure, it's 'attention to detail', but attention to what detail? Why emphasize one detail rather than another? Why are black peoples' lips the ones that tend to be emphasized in art more frequently, when white peoples' lips can also stand out against their skin tone? Why was this detail so salient to white animators? Would black characters in the past have been drawn with emphasis placed on their lips had anti-Black racism not been so normalized in society, and had that not been a prevalent feature of racist caricatures? Would black characters today still sometimes be drawn with emphasis placed on their lips had such emphasis not been so prevalent during the golden age of animation?

This explains it better than I could ever write. This is similar to how in media, LGBT characters before the late 2010s/2020s were always shown as weirdos to let you know that being "LGBT" is weird instead of letting the character be a character who just so happens to be gay. See General Blue as an example of this. Black characters in Dragon Ball(pre Super at least) went out they way to show that they was Black in a series that doesn't even focus on ethincities/race beyond Saiyans and Namekians. Dubbing didn't help because Funimation decided to make most of the Black characters speak stereotypical Ebonics(Rebranded today as AAVE...or white washed as TikTok Slang depending on who you're talking to) that wasn't even an accurate representation of Ebonics. However Dragon Ball is a product of it's time. Does it make it okay? Hell no. Do I get offended watching DB? Not really. It's more so ignorant and sterotypical rather than outright racist intentions. I do think Globalization and DB became a Global Hit most likely lead to modern DB portraying race/ethnicity better. It ways to draw racial/ethnic features without looking like an exaggeration.

Do I think Toriyama regrets it? Tbh no. I don't even think he gives a fuck. He most likely was informed to draw characters in a less offensive way and he said "Okay".

[Majin Buu]

We're not talking old Warner Bros cartoons or Funimation
making Killa incomphensible

Indeed. Stuff like that is where we cross the line from mere depiction to racist caricatures as there is clearly intentional mockery present.

I think the oversized red lips on black characters are more innocently insensitive than anything.

"Innocently insensitive" perfectly describes most of these instances in Dragon Ball.

[Jord]

Was Killa incomprehensible in the original Japanese version as well? I only remember the US version.

[The Monkey King]

The closest answer we'd get is if it was his idea to redesign Officer Black in Path to Power.

A shame because I quite like Commander Black as an antagonist, his reaction to Commander Red wanting to wish to be taller will always be hilarious to me and he's even a half way decent martial artist.

For once, I agree with you. With Adjutant Black, I find the fact that he's a black guy named "Black" the most problematic thing about him, not his design (and even then, I only find that mildly problematic at best).

I honestly don't see it to be much worse than Commander Red being a ginger.

Spoiler:

I'm black myself if that counts for anything.

[Majin Buu]

Was Killa incomprehensible in the original Japanese version as well? I only remember the US version.

From what I can tell he speaks normally in the Japanese version.

A shame because I quite like Commander Black as an antagonist, his reaction to Commander Red wanting to wish to be taller will always be hilarious to me and he's even a half way decent martial artist.

To add to this, he actually gave a shit about all their soldiers that ended up dying for such a petty desire so he's at least a somewhat better guy than Red.

I honestly don't see it to be much worse than Commander Red being a ginger.

Gingers aren't a race per se, but I see your point. And now that you mention it, General White was a white guy. Don't know if that counts for much though since Silver and Blue were also white guys.

[Koitsukai]

The dub for black characters is really that problematic? there's actually a black character that is impossible to understand? what??
If so, and considering most here people agree there's no ill-intent on Toriyama's part, could it be safe to say the main problem comes from the dub then? or not really?

Gingers aren't a race per se, but I see your point. And now that you mention it, General White was a white guy. Don't know if that counts for much though since Silver and Blue were also white guys.

Blue did have blue eyes. I always assumed he was called blue due to that. I always thought White was actually Silver due to his hair.

[MasenkoHA]

The dub for black characters is really that problematic? there's actually a black character that is impossible to understand? what??

Just Killa

If so, and considering most here people agree there's no ill-intent on Toriyama's part, could it be safe to say the main problem comes from the dub then? or not really?

On the flip side Mr.Popo has broken speech patterns in the Japanese version to make him sound like a simpleton that aren't in the English dub, possibly because Funimation didn't realize that was a thing when working off Toei's English translations and not because they saw it as a problem.

[coola]

To add to this, he actually gave a shit about all their soldiers that ended up dying for such a petty desire so he's at least a somewhat better guy than Red.

Also, kudos for trying to win Goku over, even willing to give up on world domination wish, so Bora could be revived But then...why he thouight he stand a chance against guy who beat Tao Pai Pai and just beat up army, he hoped Goku might be tired?