Who else would have been interesting as Black?

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Yuji
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Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Yuji » Mon May 15, 2023 11:25 am

I've seen some fans argue that Black should have been Gohan or Goten (the latter usually as the actual Goten, instead of a body-swapped Zamasu) and obviously it brings up some interesting thematic implications for the story and characters. I feel the story and characters would have to be written differently but it could have worked out well.

What other character could have Black been to make for a compelling and interesting antagonist? Would Vegeta Black work, or Jiren Black, or Piccolo Black, or Beerus Black?

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon May 15, 2023 11:43 am

bUt PiCcOLo iS aLrEAdY BLaCk /s

For real though, Piccolo Black would've been dope. Piccolo hasn't had the chance to be the smirking badass he once was as far back as the saiyan saga, he's just been grumpy for 30 years. And if they got Scott McNeil to voice him, NRNRGHFNGFNGNRGFHGHHFFf

Otherwise it could be used as an interesting launchpad for bringing Namek back into the fold of the story.
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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Yuji » Mon May 15, 2023 12:41 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 11:43 am bUt PiCcOLo iS aLrEAdY BLaCk /s

For real though, Piccolo Black would've been dope. Piccolo hasn't had the chance to be the smirking badass he once was as far back as the saiyan saga, he's just been grumpy for 30 years. And if they got Scott McNeil to voice him, NRNRGHFNGFNGNRGFHGHHFFf

Otherwise it could be used as an interesting launchpad for bringing Namek back into the fold of the story.
Would you rather it be still Zamasu or just Piccolo turned evil for whatever reason?

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Scientist Fu » Mon May 15, 2023 1:44 pm

I personally think Goku was the best choice and Zamasu didn't pick him haphazardly, but if he had to pick someone else I think that another strong and talented character would have worked fine to carry out his plan. Potential wise, Saiyans are pretty interesting creatures, so maybe Gohan or Broly would be the next best choice? due to their infinite potential. I'm sure Zamasu would figure out to control Broly's forms somehow. Frieza is another character with great potential, so he could have been interesting too.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 16, 2023 7:33 am

Jiren, Piccolo, and Beerus are a huge NO, they would not look nearly as good in Black's elegant and Divine outfits. On top of this, Zamasu desired the OP Zenkai boosts of the great warrior race, so he would not be interested in these beings. Besides that, Zamasu had a grudge with Beerus and the other Gods because they tolerate evil instead of destroying it, he would not be interested in his body.

Goten Black was always just a meme, it doesn't make sense. Goten is just a random fodder kid, why would Zamasu be interested in him?

Gohan Black is really the only alternative worth considering, the problem is that Gohan, unlike Goku, is respectful, wise, and, above all else, NOT a battle-freak. So, if Gohan met Zamasu, Gohan would not disrespect Zamasu, nor would he fight him (because he's not a battle maniac like Goku), which means that Zamasu would not have a grudge against a mortal in the first place.

Goku was the final catalyst, it was all downhill from there. The moment Zamasu got a personal grudge against a mortal, the moment it all became personal, was the beginning of the end. And Goku made it personal, by challenging Zamasu to a fight and then destroying his ego.

On top of this, if Zamasu somehow spectated Gohan on Godtube, he would not get nearly as pissed off as he did with Goku; because Gohan doesn't use God ki in battle, and Zamasu was very furious with Goku stealing God ki for himself. Zamasu could possibly respect how Gohan became so powerful on his own, without stealing God ki.

Contrary to some beliefs, Zamasu is actually very respectful towards his opponents, when they deserve it. He often complimented the proud warrior race and acknowledged their strength. Zamasu is not one to underestimate his opponents when they have proven themselves worthy, and so he might actually find it commendable that Gohan became so strong without having to steal power from the Gods (like Goku and Vegeta).

So the main issue with "Gohan Black" is that, writing-wise, this character doesn't make sense... if you replace Goku with Gohan, then Zamasu will not go down a dark path. The evidence of this is Future Zamasu; he never met Goku, so he never went down a dark path (until Goku Black showed up due to time-travelling).

How do you write Gohan Black? How can Gohan act so foolishly as to insult Zamasu? Gohan is respectful with the Kais, he knows better, he would not insult and humiliate Zamasu like Goku did...

Zamasu taking Goku's body was the best possible writing path.
Goten (the latter usually as the actual Goten,
This already makes more sense.

What you are asking for, however, is to completely change the character.

It would no longer be Zamasu in a mortal's body; it would be a mortal who was raised and manipulated by Zamasu.

I assume that this "Goten Black" would be a version of Goten who, for whatever reason, was raised by Zamasu and manipulated to carry out Project Zero Mortals.

This is interesting, and it was a possibility brought up in the story; that Goku Black was just some puppet. Whis theorized that Zamasu was a manipulator who created a Goku clone as his puppet. Obviously the truth turned out to be much different; but in this scenario, it would be interesting to see Zamasu manipulate Goten (for whatever reason... again, why would Zamasu be interested in Goten specifically?) and turn him against his father and his friend Trunks.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue May 16, 2023 11:06 am

Yuji wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 12:41 pmWould you rather it be still Zamasu or just Piccolo turned evil for whatever reason?
I think it'd be interesting if Zamasu was like, "look at the Namekians, they just hang out and drink water and don't screw up the environment or kill things for fun, why can't you humans and saiyans be like them". It'd be a way to bring another race into the focus besides saiyans. Then later after Zamasu fucked around and found out with what Namekians are about, he could go full-space-Hitler and try universal genocide.
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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Trouser » Tue May 16, 2023 12:26 pm

Future Gohan. He's literally the only person who could affect Future Trunks' mind and timeline even more than Goku Black.
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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Yuji » Tue May 16, 2023 1:53 pm

Trouser wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:26 pm Future Gohan. He's literally the only person who could affect Future Trunks' mind and timeline even more than Goku Black.
I'd say Vegeta Black could bring some interesting dynamics too. He fulfills the Goku (Saiyan potential, battle-crazed, reckless endangerment of others) role while having a closer connection to Trunks and Bulma.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Seekeroftruth » Mon May 22, 2023 5:41 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 11:43 am bUt PiCcOLo iS aLrEAdY BLaCk /s

For real though, Piccolo Black would've been dope. Piccolo hasn't had the chance to be the smirking badass he once was as far back as the saiyan saga, he's just been grumpy for 30 years. And if they got Scott McNeil to voice him, NRNRGHFNGFNGNRGFHGHHFFf

Otherwise it could be used as an interesting launchpad for bringing Namek back into the fold of the story.
Piccolo's human analog in my opinion would be middle Eastern IMO. The association for him being black came about from him being the only coloured Z-senshi character in north america.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by TobyS » Tue May 23, 2023 6:34 am

Goku seemed the toughest at the time (in the manga he actually picks Monaka first) And he used Godly ki and stuff enraging Zamasu.

However he then wipes out all mortals, not just Goku, so yeah it's completely plausible he doesn't take Goku's body, if he does it's very plausible he takes Goten or Gohan.

Piccolo would be interesting he could like that they are less shitty mortals so him choosing the least bad option would make sense so as not to sully himself. But there'd have to be a line about their potential or something. Or training in a ROSAT like place like Freeza and citing their longer lifespan.

The Zenkais were only exploited to help Synch his body and soul and able to use the now-latent power that was already there, Goku Vegeta and Gohan no longer get "actual" zenkais as confirmed in the manga.

Future Vegeta doesn't really have the same bond as present one, he died earlier while still a jerkwad. Also his body is gone and his soul has been reincarnated by this point.
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He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Gligarman » Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:32 pm

I will forever be of the opinion that Black should’ve been Goten! Goten barely gets anything to do as it is and it would’ve great to see him fight his own dad.

Folks always tell me this wouldn’t make sense and I always remind them that this whole series started because a teenager girl shot a 12 year old boy with a monkey tail in the head for throwing her car.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by novashibe » Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:30 pm

Echoing Future Gohan. Now that I think about it, I really would love to see how that would have turned out.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by nineko » Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:41 am

Since Zamasu can teleport and has access to time travel, he could have stolen Pure Boo's body and absorb powerful fighters across universes. Just imagine how powerful Boo would be with a few dozens of God-level fighters into him.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Bloodthroe » Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:51 am

I like this kind of topic, because I think the Zamasu arc was a good idea poorly executed. I have several better choices for Black:
Broly (the strongest saiyan, a saiyan messiah)
Gohan (the other strongest saiyan, who also has close ties to Future Trunks)
Vegito (the other, other strongest saiyan)

It Vegito Black show up would have been like having the past come back to haunt Goku and Vegeta. However, since Buu saga Vegito hadn't trained with Whis, he wouldn't necessarily be superior to Goku and Vegeta. And it would be alarming the stronger he kept getting with Zamasu's soul in him unlocking more god ki.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Bloodthroe » Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:04 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:33 amSo the main issue with "Gohan Black" is that, writing-wise, this character doesn't make sense... if you replace Goku with Gohan, then Zamasu will not go down a dark path. The evidence of this is Future Zamasu; he never met Goku, so he never went down a dark path (until Goku Black showed up due to time-travelling).

How do you write Gohan Black? How can Gohan act so foolishly as to insult Zamasu? Gohan is respectful with the Kais, he knows better, he would not insult and humiliate Zamasu like Goku did...
Well Zamasu could still be insulted by Goku and decide to steal his son's body as a big middle finger to Goku.

I didn't assume he took Goku's body out of spite for Goku. It seemed he took it, because it was the strongest body he knew of.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Vegard Aune » Wed Jun 28, 2023 6:10 am

Bloodthroe wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:04 am I didn't assume he took Goku's body out of spite for Goku. It seemed he took it, because it was the strongest body he knew of.
Indeed. Just look at the manga, where Zamasu never met Goku before deciding to steal his body. He just heard about him, looked into the matter, and concluded "Yes, this man will be very useful to my plans."
Zamasu actually meeting Goku was presumably not part of the outline for the arc. It was a Toei addition. And a Toei addition that causes problems anyway since it leaves the origin of Goku Black dependent on Goku Black having already showed up, since Goku only met Zamasu in the first place because he was investigating Black. Not to mention how said investigation into Goku Black culminates in Beerus destroying Zamasu before he gets to enact his plans, so in the anime one either has to assume that in the timeline OG Zamasu came from, they just stopped paying attention to the guy before he started carrying out his plans, or that he found out about Goku some other way entirely...

Man, I remember how interesting that mystery was when it was still going on. And then after all is said and done we were left with an answer that contradicts itself.
TobyS wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 6:34 am Goku seemed the toughest at the time (in the manga he actually picks Monaka first) And he used Godly ki and stuff enraging Zamasu.
I wouldn't take that page where he body-swaps with Monaka all too seriously. It was one of those in-between-chapter skits, and the canonicity of those seems kinda dubious, being that they also include things like Sorbet lamenting that his arc was skipped, Pilaf declaring that "Next time, the FUTURE PILAF ARC begins!" or Gogeta telling Broly that "Sorry, but we're skipping this fight." So the "Zamasu-as-Monaka" bit may or may not have just been intended as a joke that didn't happen.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:03 pm

Bloodthroe wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:04 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:33 amSo the main issue with "Gohan Black" is that, writing-wise, this character doesn't make sense... if you replace Goku with Gohan, then Zamasu will not go down a dark path. The evidence of this is Future Zamasu; he never met Goku, so he never went down a dark path (until Goku Black showed up due to time-travelling).

How do you write Gohan Black? How can Gohan act so foolishly as to insult Zamasu? Gohan is respectful with the Kais, he knows better, he would not insult and humiliate Zamasu like Goku did...
Well Zamasu could still be insulted by Goku and decide to steal his son's body as a big middle finger to Goku.

I didn't assume he took Goku's body out of spite for Goku. It seemed he took it, because it was the strongest body he knew of.
Goku > Gohan

So Zamasu would take Goku's body anyway. He wants the body of the strongest and Goku was stronger than Gohan when he met Zamasu.

If Zamasu didn't take Goku's body for spite, why would he take the body of his son to spite Goku? Zamasu wants the strongest mortal body, Gohan's body is not stronger than Goku's at that point in time.

On top of this, when people say "Gohan Black", they usually think of Future Gohan, who was Trunks' actual mentor. Future Gohan was a cripple with only one arm, so his body is worthless to Zamasu.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Bloodthroe » Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:26 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:03 pm If Zamasu didn't take Goku's body for spite, why would he take the body of his son to spite Goku? Zamasu wants the strongest mortal body, Gohan's body is not stronger than Goku's at that point in time.

On top of this, when people say "Gohan Black", they usually think of Future Gohan, who was Trunks' actual mentor. Future Gohan was a cripple with only one arm, so his body is worthless to Zamasu.
5 minutes of research and he could have learned that Gohan has more potential than Goku. And he could have taken Future Gohan's body before he lost his arm. He does have time travel powers. This stuff is easy to explain, but it doesn't matter to me which Gohan he takes.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:43 am

Bloodthroe wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:26 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:03 pm If Zamasu didn't take Goku's body for spite, why would he take the body of his son to spite Goku? Zamasu wants the strongest mortal body, Gohan's body is not stronger than Goku's at that point in time.

On top of this, when people say "Gohan Black", they usually think of Future Gohan, who was Trunks' actual mentor. Future Gohan was a cripple with only one arm, so his body is worthless to Zamasu.
5 minutes of research and he could have learned that Gohan has more potential than Goku. And he could have taken Future Gohan's body before he lost his arm. He does have time travel powers. This stuff is easy to explain, but it doesn't matter to me which Gohan he takes.
Zamasu doesn't even know who Gohan is because Gohan is worthless scholar at the time of Zamasu saga. Meanwhile, Goku was a powerhouse who astonished all of Godtube in U6 Tournament. Zamasu has no reason to research on Gohan because he does not even know who Gohan is in first place, Gohan is unworthy of Zamasu's attention.

Goku was though, which is why Zamasu became obsessed with Goku.

Future Gohan before he lost his arm is still fodder compared to SSB Goku, he does not need his body.

Besides that, Gohan's power-up derive from primal rage, not too unlike Broly. Zamasu, not being primal saiyan, might not be able to truly unlock Gohan's primal savage power. Zamasu learned how to use rage as power-up only towards the very end of the arc.

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Re: Who else would have been interesting as Black?

Post by Bloodthroe » Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:04 pm

But, he does know who Goku is, right? So by researching on Goku, he would learn of Gohan.

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