Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon May 29, 2023 10:46 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:48 amsnip
Again, Time Traveling isn't the center piece of the Zamasu arc, he didnt go on his killing spree as a direct retaliation for Trunks helping out the heroes of the main timeline, shit prior to Trunks actually going back in time before Zamasu finished him off, he didn't even know they had technology capable of even achieving that.

Zamasu berating Trunks for his "sin" of time traveling was just him adding salt to the wounds trying to "gaslight" him into believing that everything was his fault, typical villain shit talk tactic.

Vegeta and Freeza were destroying and conquering planets waaay before they even knew the Dragon Balls even existed, hell Nappa initially only wanted to invade the Earth to avenge Raditz and potentially revive him until Vegeta mentioned immortality. On top of that they only even LEARNED of them because the scouters are galatic walkie talkies. If Bulma hadn't created the radar, eventually Pilaf or Commander Red would've gotten to the DBs and had their way with them. As stated before the Dragon Balls are a neutral plot device, the crux of most of the stories they're involved in is that any person good or bad can get a hold of them its just a matter of who gets them first. Same thing with time travelling, technically with the new rules its "forbidden" but anybody can do it with either good or bad intentions and the repercussions if any (there havent been any) will vary.

Saying the Dragon Balls should only be used for noble causes is you making up your own rules, you dont have to like GTs added limitation of them needing at least 100 years to fully expel the negative charge thats created within them when A LOT of positive energy was used grant a wish like reviving billions but it doesnt contradict anything that's pre-established. Lets also keep in mind that the Dragons were also upgraded several times as well so its not like there's all take with no give with what they're capable of doing.

The Shadows Arc is the only time we've seen a DIRECT CAUSE AND EFFECT of the overuse of the Dragon Balls. Whether you like it or not is totally up to you but it doesn't change what is.

Outside of GT we've yet to see any consequences for either over using the Dragon Balls or traveling through time be it for good or bad reasons. Merged Zamasu becoming grotesque was a by product of him underestimating the heroes and the potential draw backs of combining an immortal body with a killable one. The Super DBs did their part already by granting the wish, what the Zamasus did after getting their wishes granted was completely on them.

I think i've added all that I could to this particular part of the conversation, You can respond if you want but I'm starting to feel like we're gonna be talking in circles sooner rather than later if we haven't already.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon May 29, 2023 10:46 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:48 amsnip
Again, Time Traveling isn't the center piece of the Zamasu arc, he didnt go on his killing spree as a direct retaliation for Trunks helping out the heroes of the main timeline, shit prior to Trunks actually going back in time before Zamasu finished him off, he didn't even know they had technology capable of even achieving that.

Zamasu berating Trunks for his "sin" of time traveling was just him adding salt to the wounds trying to "gaslight" him into believing that everything was his fault, typical villain shit talk tactic.

Vegeta and Freeza were destroying and conquering planets waaay before they even knew the Dragon Balls even existed, hell Nappa initially only wanted to invade the Earth to avenge Raditz and potentially revive him until Vegeta mentioned immortality. On top of that they only even LEARNED of them because the scouters are galatic walkie talkies. If Bulma hadn't created the radar, eventually Pilaf or Commander Red would've gotten to the DBs and had their way with them. As stated before the Dragon Balls are a neutral plot device, the crux of most of the stories they're involved in is that any person good or bad can get a hold of them its just a matter of who gets them first. Same thing with time travelling, technically with the new rules its "forbidden" but anybody can do it with either good or bad intentions and the repercussions if any (there havent been any) will vary.

Saying the Dragon Balls should only be used for noble causes is you making up your own rules, you dont have to like GTs added limitation of them needing at least 100 years to fully expel the negative charge thats created within them when A LOT of positive energy was used grant a wish like reviving billions but it doesnt contradict anything that's pre-established. Lets also keep in mind that the Dragons were also upgraded several times as well so its not like there's all take with no give with what they're capable of doing.

The Shadows Arc is the only time we've seen a DIRECT CAUSE AND EFFECT of the overuse of the Dragon Balls. Whether you like it or not is totally up to you but it doesn't change what is.

Outside of GT we've yet to see any consequences for either over using the Dragon Balls or traveling through time be it for good or bad reasons. Merged Zamasu becoming grotesque was a by product of him underestimating the heroes and the potential draw backs of combining an immortal body with a killable one. The Super DBs did their part already by granting the wish, what the Zamasus did after getting their wishes granted was completely on them.

I think i've added all that I could to this particular part of the conversation, You can respond if you want but I'm starting to feel like we're gonna be talking in circles sooner rather than later if we haven't already.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Grimlock » Tue May 30, 2023 1:09 pm

ABED wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:21 pmWhen a popular show from another country, in this case the UK, is brought over to the US to be adapted, far too often the nuances and reasons why the show was popular get lost, butchered, or dismissed, and thus you end up with something bland and mediocre if not outright awful.
Well, my reference here is The Office. And The Office (US) is better than The Office (UK), so... I don't know, as far as I can tell, you are saying Dragon Ball GT is even better than the source material. Which is obviously not a problem, mind you. Just something you don't see someone saying every day.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue May 30, 2023 1:42 pm

I know its unfair to expect you to be familiar with British Sitcoms but BOY does this show you missed the hundreds of comedies that just didnt work when remade in the USA.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 30, 2023 2:13 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:09 pm
ABED wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:21 pmWhen a popular show from another country, in this case the UK, is brought over to the US to be adapted, far too often the nuances and reasons why the show was popular get lost, butchered, or dismissed, and thus you end up with something bland and mediocre if not outright awful.
Well, my reference here is The Office. And The Office (US) is better than The Office (UK), so... I don't know, as far as I can tell, you are saying Dragon Ball GT is even better than the source material. Which is obviously not a problem, mind you. Just something you don't see someone saying every day.
He didn’t say that, and you know he didn’t say that given that it was you who provided the exception to his clearly explained rule. I doubt "bland and mediocre if not outright awful" meant GT > source material. Not to mention the rest of his post you left out.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Civic » Tue May 30, 2023 9:03 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:33 pm I think people should come to terms with not liking something instead of claiming it doesn't make sense. Because it does, it's pretty straightforward, use something and get a reward, overdo that and you'll deal with the consequences. It's magic, logic was thrown out the window decades ago, so how come now of all times it doesn't add up?
And nothing has been contradicted, it's actually expanding upon something, you don't like it? cool. Doesn't mean 2+2=5.
I've seen this way too many times, "I don't like this, hence it doesn't make sense".
For me GT by and large just doesn't fit DB's tone, and therefore I'm not a big fan. That's an opinion, I can certainly see some people disagreeing with me or liking it regardless, I certainly don't think anyone who disagrees with me is "wrong." In fact, I like hearing people challenge my viewpoints because it gives me a perspective I might not have considered before and that can lead to me enjoying something I once didn't.
Also, like ABED said, my biggest problem is the fighting.
I think this is another huge issue with GT. There isn't a single memorable fight in the entire series, only some cool finishers (like SSJ4 Goku's Dragon Fist against Eis Shenron). I remember one fight where I think Goku is just starting to fight Baby, there's like two blows traded (like two punches or something) and Goku says something along the lines of it being a great fight and I was like 'HUH?' The animation is far more consistent than Z, I'll grant, but they do so little with it, it barely matters.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Grimlock » Wed May 31, 2023 3:58 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:13 pmHe didn’t say that, and you know he didn’t say that given that it was you who provided the exception to his clearly explained rule. I doubt "bland and mediocre if not outright awful" meant GT > source material
I doubt that too. I asked that because the comparison that was made didn't get me the way it probably should have. Like I said, my reference is The Office, so while he's making a point towards one side, from my perspective I see the exact the opposite side. What with GT being compared to "typical US adaptations" which apparently is a bad thing, but The Office (US) is great...

Now, I'm not aware of any kind of "consensus" regarding US adaptations of UK materials, I don't know if they are all "typically" like he describes (and even if that's the case, who's to say if I were to watch them, I wouldn't prefer them? But I doubt The Office is the exception, come on... I'm willing to bet there are other good adaptations out there too). Anyway.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:13 pmNot to mention the rest of his post you left out.
I already addressed it before: Toriyama's absence means some aspects will be lost, as others are unable to replicate since they obviously aren't the creators, and that should be expected. But more importantly, it's something you all should come to terms with. And the sooner the better, because Toriyama won't be there to provide his inputs forever and Dragon Ball will not stop...
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed May 31, 2023 5:42 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 3:58 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:13 pmHe didn’t say that, and you know he didn’t say that given that it was you who provided the exception to his clearly explained rule. I doubt "bland and mediocre if not outright awful" meant GT > source material
I doubt that too. I asked that because the comparison that was made didn't get me the way it probably should have. Like I said, my reference is The Office, so while he's making a point towards one side, from my perspective I see the exact the opposite side. What with GT being compared to "typical US adaptations" which apparently is a bad thing, but The Office (US) is great...

Now, I'm not aware of any kind of "consensus" regarding US adaptations of UK materials, I don't know if they are all "typically" like he describes (and even if that's the case, who's to say if I were to watch them, I wouldn't prefer them? But I doubt The Office is the exception, come on... I'm willing to bet there are other good adaptations out there too). Anyway.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:13 pmNot to mention the rest of his post you left out.
I already addressed it before: Toriyama's absence means some aspects will be lost, as others are unable to replicate since they obviously aren't the creators, and that should be expected. But more importantly, it's something you all should come to terms with. And the sooner the better, because Toriyama won't be there to provide his inputs forever and Dragon Ball will not stop...
He's OUTRIGHT telling you what he meant. You can disagree with his comparison and I do agree making it was a bad idea since one can disagree with it but you cant just put words in his mouth.

There are great adaptations like All In The Family that ALSO started life as a British Sitcom.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Wed May 31, 2023 5:57 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:09 pm
ABED wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:21 pmWhen a popular show from another country, in this case the UK, is brought over to the US to be adapted, far too often the nuances and reasons why the show was popular get lost, butchered, or dismissed, and thus you end up with something bland and mediocre if not outright awful.
Well, my reference here is The Office. And The Office (US) is better than The Office (UK), so... I don't know, as far as I can tell, you are saying Dragon Ball GT is even better than the source material. Which is obviously not a problem, mind you. Just something you don't see someone saying every day.
How did you get THAT from what I wrote?

I didn't even give a specific example.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Skar » Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:23 am

I thought it was interesting that Toriyama had Dende deactivate the DBs in Online (assuming he wrote that part). It had the same outcome as the Shadow Dragons and they could no longer rely on the DBs. Shadow Dragon saga ended with Shenron granting one final wish to fix the damage caused during that saga so the only consequence is that they couldn't use the DBs anymore. Both series were followed by a major timeskip so the DBs weren't needed anyway though. It might've had more impact if the Shadow Dragons happened at the beginning of GT so the characters had to be more careful against villains that came after.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:23 am

GT has great artstyle, I really love the color schemes, tone and overall designs in it. Lot of the new characters, that weren’t designed by Toriyama, looked a lot like being pulled from his Dragon Quest designs.
That for me is already above par than Super.

Music is also great and one time wonder by Akihito Tokunaga, I do love the consistency of themes in it and the full orchestra synths sound grand and epic, but not as elaboratenas Shunsuke Kikuchi… this is my personal opinion, but again better than Sumitomo’s music in Super.

I think that comparing Super and GT is apple and oranges, more so, that Super is actually solid only during the Tournament Of Power. The first 2 Super arcs are retellings, while the first one is riddled with plotholes, weird stuff like dragon auras and one episode that is basically a stretch oud and beaten to death gag with Oolong playing rock paper scissors. While Universe 6 is finally an original arc, the production department still sucks, choreography is bad but there are few good things occasionally… the manga version is better (and also more rich in art and design, which is actually the opposite to how Toriyama “slacked” versus how the Buu arc looked in anime).
Zamasu arc is probably the only classic villain arc in the series and storywise, it’s good, except again for some weird choices, like that tome travelling back and forth… again, manga did this better.

GT was more fun to watch for me on TV as a kid. The hunt for DBs was visually interesting adventure and that first planet where you pay for everything was solid story. I have never questioned why is it, that the planet explodes after you make a wish same as I have never questioned why Saiyans go blond and their eyes blue or why their hair grow, because it is actually a nonsense as well.

I think that trying to find a reasoning and logic in children’s show is task set to fail, because it is a straightforward and simple story, with things like earrings somehow merging two people. But I wouldn’t blame such stuff on the writing.

My problems with writing in GT is and we know that from interview, that they had tried to go with an adventure like in DB, set up the team of Goku, Genius and whiny teen, went to space, then they have starting to build up a bigger threat in really weird way (which actually happened almost the same way in Star Wars sequels with the whole first order/final order, snoke and somehow Palpatine).
Who was first? Myu or Baby? And what about those weird guys, Cardinal, his Whip, Dolltaku and Rilldo? It’s total mess and then it ditches everything and returns for it’s Z roots, where Baby arc, from his Earth infiltration right up to it’s climax is pretty solid. But, it is not that original as it is basically a Plan To Destroy Saiyans, remixed and rewamped.
Holding onto the space crew even after the adventure and underusing all other characters is a big GT flaw, that Super did better (and again, just in the last arc).
Super Android arc is totally weird and here one wonders why they didn’t come up with something better to demolish Earth or need to use the Dragon Balls, because it is the clear setup for Shadow Dragons and they’ve shot themselves in the leg with black dragon balls and destroying earth already… Otherwise, Baby arc could’ve led directly into the Dragons.
I love the idea of Evil Shenrons, I love their designs, but the fights before the last three are indeed underwhelming, but story wise, I applaud this RPG Shonen setting of defeating the generals and getting their respective jewels before being able to go against the evil emperor/god/boss.

So, on paper, GT is not bad, but what kills the show for me is lack of character development, underusing the whole cast, some weird main plot choices and few things that lead up to nothing. But like Star Wars ST, it is fine and great looking bonus for me.

While Super is better show on paper and proper sequel to Z, hence it wins the Super vs GT bout by a long shot theoretically, in reality, Super is a trainwreck!
It looks ugly, it looks cheap (because it is), the first two arcs are subpar to the adapted movies and give you actually less than the source material… during Universe 6 and Zamasu arcs, the manga storytelling is also more cohesive and the show still looks like crap.
Which was the reason they have switched production and the show looks like it should from the beginning from it’s 90ish something episode.

GT is beautifully crafted, with writing lacking and Super is an ugly cash grab, with dissapointing writing that is only good in it’s last arc, while it should’ve been perfect sequel. Pick your poison.
Personally, I have rewatched DB and Z like 6 times in my life, GT for three times, but I don’t know if I will rewatch Super anytime soon. The corrected Blu Ray versions still look like crap.
But I do love Director’s Cut of BOG and Broly and Super Hero are fun and great movies.
We live in age of faster than life technology and with people in charge of the companies forcing undoable deadlines… that’s what killed Super.
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