Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Sun May 21, 2023 1:35 pm

Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 1:21 pm
ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:22 pm I think most people don't care about canon.
That's because they don't fully appreciate the ramifications of that.

There are some striking differences between canon material and fillers, which can confuse the hell out of people in more ways than one if an equal sign is put between them.

For example: canon teaches us that only heroes get to keep their bodies after death as a special favor, while other people's souls get cleansed while remaining disembodied.

Filler on the other hand has literally everyone keep their bodies, and even be able to run around in hell causing trouble.

Then again there's filler that contradicts earlier filler - for example in Z at the very least the villains roaming hell with their bodies intact still had halos. In GT on the other hand, the writers thought the halo symbolizes your status as a denizen of heaven - you lose it when you are doomed to hell.

So as it turns out, the people writing fillers often had very little idea about how the source material is supposed to work, hence all the contradictions. If you say filler is equally as valid and important as Toriyama's material, you end up confused and possibly with a lower opinion of the series as a whole.

Another example would be the idea that prevails among a lot of the community, that "power levels are bullshit". But if you look at only the canon material, you find much more consistency: a decisive power advantage usually leads to a swift victory (unlike in filler, where fights among uneven opponents are dragged out), and power chains are generally respected. GT, on the other hand, gives us:

a pile of pavement bricks -> base Trunks -> Mutchy -> SSj Goku -> Kid Buu.

I know the convention of that part of the series was supposed to be humorous, but that's still inexcusable.

So as you can see, there are plenty more reasons to care about canonicity than just continuity.
No, they get it, but they just don't care about the intellectual exercise. They want the emotional experience, not made up facts and logic. The fact that DB is as popular as it is despite filler and contradictory canon or non-canon is evidence that people don't care. And the people most confused by the contradictions and what is or isn't canon are paradoxically the fans.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 21, 2023 1:42 pm

I guarantee that many fans do care about that shit. If others can look past it then all the more power to them, but even this fandom is rather diverse.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun May 21, 2023 2:14 pm

ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:55 am I never took it that Goku is absorbing the Dragon Balls. And as a consequence of overusing the DBs, Goku makes a deal with Shen Long to become a god?

I don't think Super contradicting GT is disrespectful. Why would it be?

As for a reason to reach the finish line on GT, if you enjoy it, why not finish. If it's out of duty, then don't. It's a waste of time. If your belief that being non-canon is the reason to not continue, then I think it's an odd reason.
I mean, the Dragon Balls do actually disappear into Goku's body. I don't see why Goku would pay the consequences for using the Dragon Balls. Didn't Goku only use the Dragon Balls one time to wish Bora back to life after he was murdered? I don't know why that would be so terrible to punish Goku. And while the GT special was made before the series concluded, that's why I brought up the last episode of GT (Goku being an adult, but still young and with no halo during that Tenka'ichi Budokai). Plus, unlike in Z, I don't think we can make the distinction between the series and TV special (regardless of when it was made) because it's the same team doing the entire thing.

Anyway, I believe that GT being cut out of the continuity (maybe a better word than "canon" in this case) makes it inconsequential. Doesn't really matter what happened in that series or what "rules" they followed or broke because the events of GT never happen any more then a fanfic of Goku leaving Chichi to start a family with Caulifla... *shakes head*.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by JulieYBM » Sun May 21, 2023 2:34 pm

I really enjoy some of the ideas (galaxy-wide Dragon Ball quest, the Baby arc, the Super 17 arc, the Evil Dragons) but I don't think the minute details that connect everything together really pulled it all together. There needed to be a greater focus on character development and getting the characters to grow more. I think the best parts of the series are when they feel so much more divorced from the original comic or material that repeated the characterizations of previous animated Dragon Ball works. That's why I enjoy Vegeta's scenes so much or why I like Pan and wish her development hadn't been stalled to focus more on Gokuu not even developing himself and maturing.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Sun May 21, 2023 2:45 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:14 pm
ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:55 am I never took it that Goku is absorbing the Dragon Balls. And as a consequence of overusing the DBs, Goku makes a deal with Shen Long to become a god?

I don't think Super contradicting GT is disrespectful. Why would it be?

As for a reason to reach the finish line on GT, if you enjoy it, why not finish. If it's out of duty, then don't. It's a waste of time. If your belief that being non-canon is the reason to not continue, then I think it's an odd reason.
I mean, the Dragon Balls do actually disappear into Goku's body. I don't see why Goku would pay the consequences for using the Dragon Balls. Didn't Goku only use the Dragon Balls one time to wish Bora back to life after he was murdered? I don't know why that would be so terrible to punish Goku. And while the GT special was made before the series concluded, that's why I brought up the last episode of GT (Goku being an adult, but still young and with no halo during that Tenka'ichi Budokai). Plus, unlike in Z, I don't think we can make the distinction between the series and TV special (regardless of when it was made) because it's the same team doing the entire thing.

Anyway, I believe that GT being cut out of the continuity (maybe a better word than "canon" in this case) makes it inconsequential. Doesn't really matter what happened in that series or what "rules" they followed or broke because the events of GT never happen any more then a fanfic of Goku leaving Chichi to start a family with Caulifla... *shakes head*.
The adventures he goes on are at the heart of their overuse and while I get your point, he pays the price because he's the hero. He's giving his life so others can live on. He made a deal. I thought Shen Long was clear on that. Shen Long didn't punish Goku specifically, Goku is taking the bullet of his own volition.

Continuity, canon, whatever. Being out of continuity may make it inconsequential to the plot of whatever comes later, but if someone thinks it's good, then that's what matters, not that it "didn't happen" because none of it actually happened.
I guarantee that many fans do care about that shit. If others can look past it then all the more power to them, but even this fandom is rather diverse.
I'm referring to the overall audience, not hardcore fans. Continuity is fine for most people. They like being pulled into a story, but some want strict adherence to continuity and canon because they prefer the puzzle. The latter are in the minority.

I think I've said all I can so unless anyone has any questions or want me to clarify anything, I'll Boo-Boo.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 21, 2023 3:22 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:14 pm I mean, the Dragon Balls do actually disappear into Goku's body. I don't see why Goku would pay the consequences for using the Dragon Balls. Didn't Goku only use the Dragon Balls one time to wish Bora back to life after he was murdered? I don't know why that would be so terrible to punish Goku.
This is a good point too - the ending of GT suggested a particularly personal affinity for/connection to the Dragonballs for Goku that we never got any prior hints of, apart from his personal sentiment for the 4-star ball as a memento of his grandpa. Goku was basically made more special than he was for no other reason that it's Goku Time (R).

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by GokuHater » Sun May 21, 2023 4:44 pm

Probably it's because of the fact that during GT run, they constantly try something new, or change the premise according to the reception.
Sometimes it's a hit or miss, sometimes the idea is just bad, but when it hits well, it does hit well.

That's actually my critisicm with Super. It stays in a correct safe place but that causes it never to be more than 'alright'. In that regardsSuper is warm, while GT can be cold to hot.
Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:49 am - The black star DB arc was a horrible idea, forcing an early DB convention while completely disregarding the power and abilities that the protagonists wielded at that time, which could only have ended up a mess impossible to suspend disbelief for
Actually black star arc is a good idea but bugged with bad choices. One of them is it's nonsensical sense of danger. The idea of Dragon Balls causing earth to explode is stupid and logically it doesn't hold up. Besides that it stands opposed to the tone they were going for. If the hunt for black star dragon balls was made as a harkening to more adventurous and less serious days then it didn't need such an earth shattering reason to exist.
That's the second issue. The timing.
They made this arc which was supposed to symbolise old Dragon Ball right after the Buu arc, when everyone and their mother expected more of the same. If this was treated more like a spin off I bet many more people would find it amusing.

There's a good reason to make an adventurous arc again - after all many many people prefer the early tone of DB. Unfortunately the creators did not have nearly enough good ideas to fill it up. I mean... First adventure was them going to a desert planet when the plot basically repeats two times. Then giant planet, an episode a 6 year old would write. The. Ulong copy paste. Then an actual GOOD episode about Pan. But by the time they realised they lack the positive feedback (and skill) to continue and made a sharp turn for a different tone.
- The Baby arc was probably the sole good premise of the series, I'll give it that - flaws in execution notwithstanding
This one is funny. Baby was actually not an original story. A story about Tsufulians taking revenge was already told in "Plan to eradicate all sayians".
However because no one and their mother played/watched this, it comes off as being quite original. And the premise is good. A robotic Tsufulian taking revenge for his people, being a parasite, taking control of the planet, making so that all of our heroes become corrupted, finally taking the prince of the race you wanted to erase as host and ultimately becoming a monster himself. There's much to like even if it is a mashing of Cell, Buu and PTEAS in a way.
Also it gives us SSJ4. A form that is so original and so harkens to Saiyan anatomy and lore it's superb.
- Piccolo's death was a bad idea, as the writers forgot DBs can be destroyed without requiring their creator to die. They tried salvaging that later with Piccolo's hell scenes, but even that was abysmal
Off course the fact is Piccolo's death done right is subjective but I have a hunch they did this solely because they really did have nothing for Piccolo to do and zero ideas but they still wanted him to go away with some sort of meaning instead of letting him hang around and do nothing.
If that's the case, then I agree, this is way better than making characters take place in a plot just for them to be there.
- The Super 17 arc was not only the literal humanly apogee of derivative (more androids), it also took poorly understood, filler physics of the afterlife and made them the very foundation of the story. Even perfection in execution couldn't have salvaged this.
Absolutely agree, worst arcz nothing to add here :D
- The Shadow Dragons arc - while most will say it's a nice callback to that manga line by Old Kaioshin and in poetic terms a good way to end the franchise, there is still the problem of making Earth's dragonballs the center of the conflict. Earth's Dragonballs at this point were not anything particularly special, neither in terms of power nor impact. Shenron himself could be killed by someone of King Piccolo's level (260 BP if memory serves), so producing some of the most powerful foes is rather unbelievable, even if fans in favor explain it by "the accumulation of wishing energy". I don't buy it though, since even Shenron had previously stated that some wishes are beyond his power. The wishes within his power, then, shouldn't produce enough of this vague energy to produce foes as powerful as Syn Shenron. And therein lies the problem - this arc would probably have worked power tier wise if it was placed, say, between Vegeta and Namek in the story, but if that were the case, the supposed moral of the arc would be sacrificed (that the DBs are not to be overused). Either way, you reach a dead end.
You miss one thing. Earth DB are nothing special in terms of power level and power altoughether as you said but it's the symbolism that counts. The surprise that something always saving your skin, always being there, often being the goal and the reason stories happened, something tied even to Goku's innocence and heroic deeds, suddenly becomes evil.
The fact it's people's own greed, laziness or sometimes bad will caused this to happen.

For me it's tematically one of the best ideas the franchise had. So I think for GT this is the first completely original while also good idea in the series.

Too bad in execution it becomes a super sentai with Goku, Pan and monster of the week scenario and by the time we reach Omega, it is basically Freeza/Cell all over again.
Ah well, at least we got SSJ4 Veggie... Right... ?
- The ending - again, like with Piccolo's death. It works on an emotional level, but accomplishes it by completely disregarding the hitherto established rules of the universe, of how the DBs work, and of who Shenron is. No foreshadowing, no hints or comments from Dende (the creator of the dragon, who has absolute power over it). Shenron is a wish-granting dragon whose job is to shut up and grant wishes, not some transcendent, metaphysical being with the agency to moralize users about overusing the DBs and take action to prevent it of his own accord.
Agreed but take into consideration they probably had a couple of weeks to pull the plug literally. I imagine some black suits coming into the studio and saying 'yeah, this show is not making money anymore, please wrap it up in 3 weeks, Naruto is coming on'. So they had little to say. Being an anime writer/animator/graphic is not easy. They had to work on what they had but managed to produce an emotional ending to the whole series which could be flawed, yes, but also epic to an excent. So I can see myself empathising with the staff a lot.

The only issue the ending can cause is to 'rewrite' the open ending of DBZ which Toriyama intended and making it into a more final ending with everything closed.

So to an extent I agree with you. GTs ideas are not nearly as original or new as people make them out to be but I care about at least trying to think up of new things, mixing ideas or even changing tropes on the run. Experimentation sometimes fails but is full of creativity.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun May 21, 2023 5:15 pm

Agreed, I also don't understand why a few people keep saying this ever since Super aired.

GT ideas weren't anything impressive.

The Black Star arc is just a bunch of forgettable filler planets stitched together. Does anyone really care about the characters and planets that were introduced in that arc? Baby is literally a rehash of Hatchyak with Frieza's personality. Super 17 is completely forgettable and generic. The Shadow Dragons make no sense, why would the Gods never warn mortals about the dangerous evil world-ending creatures that dwell within those orbs? As for SS4, it's a literal asspull. That's how Goku got the form, when Elder Kai pulled the tail out his ass.

I don't think that GT had good ideas at all and I vastly prefer Super's ideas and concepts.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 21, 2023 7:21 pm

I don’t know if I’d say that GT has inherently better ideas than Super, but it did take more risks. Having the initial concept for the show be a callback to the very first arc, but on a grander scale, was a bold idea, as was permanently killing off Piccolo. Super plays things far safer in comparison, to the point where it feels like it’s stuck living in the past, which I suppose is inevitable, since it’s a midquel.

The Evil Dragons concept might not make much sense in terms of the logistics regarding why these things are so powerful, but thematically speaking, they make for an appropriate final threat for the Dragon Team. It’s also easily the most inventive idea GT has.

Overall, I’d hesitate to say that GT is better than DBS, but it’s less stagnant.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun May 21, 2023 8:57 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:21 pm The Evil Dragons concept might not make much sense in terms of the logistics regarding why these things are so powerful, but thematically speaking, they make for an appropriate final threat for the Dragon Team. It’s also easily the most inventive idea GT has.
Power levels are bs. Nothing makes sense since Z if you think about it. And DBS went even further with characters like Broly or Jiren.
As for Shadow Dragons, i don't buy argument that they shouldn't be so strong because Shenron wasn't. It was hinted these dragons existed before. Popo said some evil dragons appeared some time ago on some planet and destroyed everything surrounding it. Also dragons didn't behave like they were just born. They knew each other. They knew who was their leader and who was strong and who wasn't. Nuova even said he never kills women and children. Why would he say that if he was just born? I like how Toyotaro in his AF manga made it so these dragons actually live in their own dimension. And perhaps this is how Shadow Dragons worked in GT as well. Maybe those specific wishes just brought them back or had some impact on them, but it definitely didn't look like it was the first time they appeared in universe.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 21, 2023 9:34 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:57 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:21 pm The Evil Dragons concept might not make much sense in terms of the logistics regarding why these things are so powerful, but thematically speaking, they make for an appropriate final threat for the Dragon Team. It’s also easily the most inventive idea GT has.
Power levels are bs. Nothing makes sense since Z if you think about it. And DBS went even further with characters like Broly or Jiren.
As for Shadow Dragons, i don't buy argument that they shouldn't be so strong because Shenron wasn't. It was hinted these dragons existed before. Popo said some evil dragons appeared some time ago on some planet and destroyed everything surrounding it. Also dragons didn't behave like they were just born. They knew each other. They knew who was their leader and who was strong and who wasn't. Nuova even said he never kills women and children. Why would he say that if he was just born? I like how Toyotaro in his AF manga made it so these dragons actually live in their own dimension. And perhaps this is how Shadow Dragons worked in GT as well. Maybe those specific wishes just brought them back or had some impact on them, but it definitely didn't look like it was the first time they appeared in universe.
Maybe. It would explain why Nuova and Eis (I’ll just use their dub names here because they’re easier to remember) have the kind of dynamic they have, despite only being a few days old at the most. A shame the show never actually explored this, and most of them didn’t even appear onscreen together. It could’ve been used to give the dragons some more depth, beyond simply being monsters of the week.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by BeaBumby » Sun May 21, 2023 10:10 pm

A part of me's confused as to why people use "It has good ideas!" to defend GT. Sounds to me like the flimsiest bit of defense you can use for something you like. Cuz when you do say that you're kind of admitting to yourself you believe it had poor execution.

I like GT, but I admit I don't have much of an in-depth reason for that, maybe I will when I'm older and have watched it some more. But for now I just think the stuff it does is really cool and lovely, and it makes me happy. I don't need to validate my own opinion beyond that, and neither do I think any fan of anything should try to if they have to shoot themselves in the foot for it.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun May 21, 2023 10:31 pm

BeaBumby wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:10 pm A part of me's confused as to why people use "It has good ideas!" to defend GT. Sounds to me like the flimsiest bit of defense you can use for something you like.
I think "It has good ideas but bad execution" is less of a defense of GT and more an acknowledgement that GT wasn't a complete creative failure from the word Go especially when the common cliche opinion was "Lol GT sucks"

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by BeaBumby » Sun May 21, 2023 10:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:31 pm
BeaBumby wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:10 pm A part of me's confused as to why people use "It has good ideas!" to defend GT. Sounds to me like the flimsiest bit of defense you can use for something you like.
I think "It has good ideas but bad execution" is less of a defense of GT and more an acknowledgement that GT wasn't a complete creative failure from the word Go especially when the common cliche opinion was "Lol GT sucks"
I wasn't really there for the peak of making fun of GT so I can't act from the perspective of someone from that time, nor can I pretend to. But if that's the case then I understand using whatever you can to try and stick up for something a large, LARGE amount of people (I'm told) hate a ton.

.. yknow reading this before sending, a part of me feels like I'm missing your point so uh tell me if I am
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Shaddy » Mon May 22, 2023 2:03 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:31 pm I think "It has good ideas but bad execution" is less of a defense of GT and more an acknowledgement that GT wasn't a complete creative failure from the word Go especially when the common cliche opinion was "Lol GT sucks"
I think in the current era, it absolutely is a defense. When someone says "WELL AT LEAST IT'S MORE ORIGINAL THAN SUPER", I would say that 90% of the time, that's a person who wants to argue that GT is superior in many respects to Super, but for one reason or another isn't making any arguments about the actual experience of viewing the show.

In Sonic fandom it's the "passion and effort" argument, reducing things to subjective incontrovertible traits, because more materialist analysis would absolutely put Rise of Lyric above Secret Rings in most respects, and they don't want to have that discussion. The former gets the "ruined my childhood" stamp, but somehow the latter being one of the least-controllable, poorly-structured video games ever designed isn't a big deal.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 22, 2023 6:27 am

Shaddy wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:03 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:31 pm I think "It has good ideas but bad execution" is less of a defense of GT and more an acknowledgement that GT wasn't a complete creative failure from the word Go especially when the common cliche opinion was "Lol GT sucks"
I think in the current era, it absolutely is a defense. When someone says "WELL AT LEAST IT'S MORE ORIGINAL THAN SUPER", I would say that 90% of the time, that's a person who wants to argue that GT is superior in many respects to Super, but for one reason or another isn't making any arguments about the actual experience of viewing the show.

In Sonic fandom it's the "passion and effort" argument, reducing things to subjective incontrovertible traits, because more materialist analysis would absolutely put Rise of Lyric above Secret Rings in most respects, and they don't want to have that discussion. The former gets the "ruined my childhood" stamp, but somehow the latter being one of the least-controllable, poorly-structured video games ever designed isn't a big deal.
Agreed. In the Super era, it is 100% a defence of GT against Super. Their argument is that GT, while having terrible execution, at least had good ideas. The reverse is that Super has unoriginal ideas, but great execution.

Which I thoroughly disagree with (about Super having unoriginal ideas compared to GT).

Ignoring the execution (like we always do for GT), Super had very ambitious ideas:

- Expanding the God hierarchy with Destroyers, Angels, and Grand Zeno was ambitious; placing a power level cap on Goku that he can't possibly ever surpass (Whis/Grand Priest/Grand Zeno) was ambitious;

- Expanding the Multiverse up to 11 other universes each with their own unique themes, aesthetics, and powers was ambitious;

- Giving us a villain like Zamasu, who went through a negative character arc, and who is not just evil for fun, but also bases his actions on a dangerous ideology, was ambitious;

- Bringing back Future Trunks and giving him a new conflict was ambitious;

- And on the subject of F. Trunks, giving him a bittersweet and not completely happy ending was ambitious;

- Hosting a battle royale between 80 different fighters was ambitious;

- Making a villain who actually achieves immortality (Zamasu) and greatest strength (Granolah/Gas) was ambitious as it means the resolution of such fights would be unpredictable;

- Making a villain who relies on sorcery and magic (Moro) was ambitious;

- Making a movie solely and exclusively centred around Gohan and Piccolo was ambitious.

Super had A LOT of very ambitious ideas and concepts, but some people just ignore all of that simply because it is a midquel.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 22, 2023 10:38 am

Shaddy wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:03 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:31 pm I think "It has good ideas but bad execution" is less of a defense of GT and more an acknowledgement that GT wasn't a complete creative failure from the word Go especially when the common cliche opinion was "Lol GT sucks"
I think in the current era, it absolutely is a defense. When someone says "WELL AT LEAST IT'S MORE ORIGINAL THAN SUPER", I would say that 90% of the time, that's a person who wants to argue that GT is superior in many respects to Super, but for one reason or another isn't making any arguments about the actual experience of viewing the show.
And you're probably right for the fandom as a whole. But, speaking from my own perspective, as someone who thinks Super is better than GT because I enjoyed it more, when I say GT had good ideas it's not a defense of GT or an attempt at arguing GT is superior than Super.

GT had good ideas but the execution is all pretty terrible making it a pretty unwatchable series for me.

Super is content to just live off nostalgia but it's mostly entertaining,with the retelling arcs and parts of the Zamasu arc being the only real negatives for me.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Zephyr » Mon May 22, 2023 11:20 am

Dragon Ball started as a "road trip" adventure story about gathering the titular "Dragon Balls", before the literal second story arc pivoted to being about martial artists engaging in martial drama with one another. Having the orbs which were the original objects of adventure manifest as martial artists with their own martial drama to settle sounds cool as hell on paper because it's a clever way to marry Dragon Ball's two original story premises. The premise is enticing. Described in this sort of bare and general sense, I'm hooked.

The way it plays out in actuality, the way it is executed, does not deliver on the expectations that the raw premise creates in my mind. That's probably the sort of thing people mean when they say something had "good ideas but bad execution".

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 22, 2023 12:40 pm

I've never heard somebody having a problem with the Shadow Dragons being that strong. I mean, they form the DBs, can grant any wish and were enhanced a couple of times too. They are the dark side of the magical heart of this fictional show, nuff said.

Also, Goku took off with Shenron because he was killed and was the one making the deal to have one more try at Omega Shenron. Not because he was the one using the DBs all the time, but the one that stepped up.

I didn't like that MOTW formula either, or how it was approached. Just two guys, two kids nonetheless, while Gohan and Videl were having fucking tea and also worrying about them!?!?!? Vegeta was taking showers, who knows where Goten and Uub were, or why Trunks who bonded greatly with Goku and Pan was not helping them out!!!
To me it felt the threats were less serious if 20 minutes were enough to introduce them, struggle with them and beat them. And they were, most of the situations were problematic because nobody else was there to aid them. And we still don't know why nobody came along! So, having a conflict take place only because they are actively letting it happen greatly harms the final product. Which ties to my first point, not all of the dragons were THAT strong, most of them were an issue because the writers came up with circumstances where they could still be a threat.

But I was always bothered but the fact that 17 fuses with 17 and creates... a completely different character lol. But nothing makes sense in that arc, not Goku's fighting style, the merger, the enemies coming back(why Rildo but not Baby??), how Hell works, Piccolo staying in Hell even though he was key in saving the day and used to be a fucking god. Shit, Enma not reading the room and opposing Piccolo's request to go to Hell to help out is just dumb. Kinda funny because of bureaucracy in the afterlife, but the consequences are just too dark, and the joke isn't that funny to begin with.
I can work around the flaws of the other 3 arcs, but the Super 17 arc is fanfic at its worst.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Mon May 22, 2023 6:08 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 12:40 pm I've never heard somebody having a problem with the Shadow Dragons being that strong. I mean, they form the DBs, can grant any wish and were enhanced a couple of times too. They are the dark side of the magical heart of this fictional show, nuff said.

Also, Goku took off with Shenron because he was killed and was the one making the deal to have one more try at Omega Shenron. Not because he was the one using the DBs all the time, but the one that stepped up.

I didn't like that MOTW formula either, or how it was approached. Just two guys, two kids nonetheless, while Gohan and Videl were having fucking tea and also worrying about them!?!?!? Vegeta was taking showers, who knows where Goten and Uub were, or why Trunks who bonded greatly with Goku and Pan was not helping them out!!!
To me it felt the threats were less serious if 20 minutes were enough to introduce them, struggle with them and beat them. And they were, most of the situations were problematic because nobody else was there to aid them. And we still don't know why nobody came along! So, having a conflict take place only because they are actively letting it happen greatly harms the final product. Which ties to my first point, not all of the dragons were THAT strong, most of them were an issue because the writers came up with circumstances where they could still be a threat.

But I was always bothered but the fact that 17 fuses with 17 and creates... a completely different character lol. But nothing makes sense in that arc, not Goku's fighting style, the merger, the enemies coming back(why Rildo but not Baby??), how Hell works, Piccolo staying in Hell even though he was key in saving the day and used to be a fucking god. Shit, Enma not reading the room and opposing Piccolo's request to go to Hell to help out is just dumb. Kinda funny because of bureaucracy in the afterlife, but the consequences are just too dark, and the joke isn't that funny to begin with.
I can work around the flaws of the other 3 arcs, but the Super 17 arc is fanfic at its worst.
But they aren't all defeated in one episode. Some take several episodes and it shows progression of the threat. I don't know why anyone would take issue with that. They can't all be at an 11.
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