Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

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Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 21, 2023 7:49 am

I always hear everyone saying GT has good ideas, only perhaps poor execution. Why is that?

- The black star DB arc was a horrible idea, forcing an early DB convention while completely disregarding the power and abilities that the protagonists wielded at that time, which could only have ended up a mess impossible to suspend disbelief for

- The Baby arc was probably the sole good premise of the series, I'll give it that - flaws in execution notwithstanding

- Piccolo's death was a bad idea, as the writers forgot DBs can be destroyed without requiring their creator to die. They tried salvaging that later with Piccolo's hell scenes, but even that was abysmal

- The Super 17 arc was not only the literal humanly apogee of derivative (more androids), it also took poorly understood, filler physics of the afterlife and made them the very foundation of the story. Even perfection in execution couldn't have salvaged this.

- The Shadow Dragons arc - while most will say it's a nice callback to that manga line by Old Kaioshin and in poetic terms a good way to end the franchise, there is still the problem of making Earth's dragonballs the center of the conflict. Earth's Dragonballs at this point were not anything particularly special, neither in terms of power nor impact. Shenron himself could be killed by someone of King Piccolo's level (260 BP if memory serves), so producing some of the most powerful foes is rather unbelievable, even if fans in favor explain it by "the accumulation of wishing energy". I don't buy it though, since even Shenron had previously stated that some wishes are beyond his power. The wishes within his power, then, shouldn't produce enough of this vague energy to produce foes as powerful as Syn Shenron. And therein lies the problem - this arc would probably have worked power tier wise if it was placed, say, between Vegeta and Namek in the story, but if that were the case, the supposed moral of the arc would be sacrificed (that the DBs are not to be overused). Either way, you reach a dead end.

- The ending - again, like with Piccolo's death. It works on an emotional level, but accomplishes it by completely disregarding the hitherto established rules of the universe, of how the DBs work, and of who Shenron is. No foreshadowing, no hints or comments from Dende (the creator of the dragon, who has absolute power over it). Shenron is a wish-granting dragon whose job is to shut up and grant wishes, not some transcendent, metaphysical being with the agency to moralize users about overusing the DBs and take action to prevent it of his own accord.

So yeah, I think even the "ideas" layer of GT has some serious, serious problems.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun May 21, 2023 8:19 am

Boy do I have a Tumblr page for you!

https://www.tumblr.com/duhragonball

This Tumblr hilariously tears GT a new one constantly and scoffs at the idea of it having good ideas but poor execution.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun May 21, 2023 9:01 am

Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:49 amEarth's Dragonballs at this point were not anything particularly special, neither in terms of power nor impact. Shenron himself could be killed by someone of King Piccolo's level (260 BP if memory serves), so producing some of the most powerful foes is rather unbelievable, even if fans in favor explain it by "the accumulation of wishing energy". I don't buy it though, since even Shenron had previously stated that some wishes are beyond his power. The wishes within his power, then, shouldn't produce enough of this vague energy to produce foes as powerful as Syn Shenron.
That's not a problem exclusive to GT though, Toriyama had been writing by the seat of his pants for some time and it really shows after Freeza. We can believe Cell was more powerful than any villain that came before because he was made from... well cells of other powerful fighters, but then Majin Boo comes around and we have to believe someone more powerful than Freeza, the emperor of the universe existed all along, indeed Freeza even said in Resurrection F he was told never to challenge Boo.

Some fans tend to like GT nowadays because whether or not its ideas were good it at least had ambition, something Z began to lack in the second half, and Super definitely lacks, Goku Black arc notwithstanding.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 21, 2023 9:14 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:01 am Some fans tend to like GT nowadays because whether or not its ideas were good it at least had ambition, something Z began to lack in the second half, and Super definitely lacks, Goku Black arc notwithstanding.
I suppose that would depend on how you define ambition. Super widened the scope by introducing different universes, a logical step up from what we had before. GT took place mostly on Earth, with the exception of the early parts, and retreaded many ideas from Z fillers and theatricals. I could agree if you defined ambition by attempting to seriously upset the status quo, which at the very least the ending did, being a first in the franchise.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Sun May 21, 2023 9:39 am

Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:49 am - The Shadow Dragons arc - while most will say it's a nice callback to that manga line by Old Kaioshin and in poetic terms a good way to end the franchise, there is still the problem of making Earth's dragonballs the center of the conflict. Earth's Dragonballs at this point were not anything particularly special, neither in terms of power nor impact.
They had the most impact because they were what set the whole story in motion. Forget about lore, powerscaling, and worldbuilding and stuff like that. That's not what really matters. Think about theme and story and characters.
It works on an emotional level, but accomplishes it by completely disregarding the hitherto established rules of the universe, of how the DBs work, and of who Shenron is. No foreshadowing,
The emotional level is the one that matters. It's storytelling, not an RPG. There is so much of any story that works on "just cuz" and will break its own rules for the sake of thematic coherence and character. Given that Kaioshin kept harping on overusing the DBs upsets the natural order, I would say that their overuse was foreshadowed.
the creator of the dragon, who has absolute power over it.
How does he have absolute power over the dragon?

Regardless of how much I agree or disagree with your analysis, the idea is sound thematically - don't overuse the magic orb because everything comes at a price. You even seem to agree, but the issue is execution.
- Piccolo's death was a bad idea, as the writers forgot DBs can be destroyed without requiring their creator to die. They tried salvaging that later with Piccolo's hell scenes, but even that was abysmal
Or you know, that story was overused and we hadn't spent enough time with Piccolo in GT for that death to really matter. Your whole analysis comes down to lore which isn't what matters in storytelling.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 21, 2023 9:50 am

ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:39 am They had the most impact because they were what set the whole story in motion. Forget about lore, powerscaling, and worldbuilding and stuff like that. That's not what really matters. Think about theme and story and characters.
You can't just abolish everything that was established about how the world works just to drive the story in a narratively desirable direction. Everything has to be subordinate to the worldbuilding. Dead people are supposed to have halos if a) they're dead; b) they've kept their bodies - not if they're in heaven, losing them when they're condemned to hell. If they were condemned to hell, they wouldn't have kept their bodies in the first place. Same goes for Shenron - can't just suddenly present him as equipped to make a decision like the one he made about Goku and the DBs on his own.
The emotional level is the one that matters. It's storytelling, not an RPG. There is so much of any story that works on "just cuz" and will break its own rules for the sake of thematic coherence and character.
There's also an intellectual level to the story and many people when made aware of how big the problems are from a logical perspective, will simply not let them slide. Both Piccolo's death and Goku's departure were serious "but I must" moments with no compelling explanations beyond that. It was cheap tears, 's what it was.
Given that Kaioshin kept harping on overusing the DBs upsets the natural order, I would say that their overuse was foreshadowed.
Agreed, a throwaway line can lead to something amazing (like Lalo from Better Call Saul). This was not one of those instances, though. The moral of the story wasn't driven home well. If the worst that could happen were the Shadow Dragons all over again, why not just leave the DBs be and just advise everyone to be more cautious, rather than out of the blue deciding to take them away? If the gang trained, they could easily handle another generation of Shadow Dragons. Instead they chose to make Goku into some form of divine, mysterious being (portrayed as even more deified than literal Super Saiyan Gods), going directly against everything we knew about him up to that point. Give this asspull a free pass if you think it deserves it just because it works on an emotional level, but an asspull it remains.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Sun May 21, 2023 10:01 am

Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:50 am Everything has to be subordinate to the worldbuilding.
No, that's the complete opposite of what should be done. The worldbuilding is a result of the story, not the other way around.
If the worst that could happen were the Shadow Dragons all over again, why not just leave the DBs be and just advise everyone to be more cautious,
People are assholes who can't be trusted. Hell, even the Great Saiyaman arc begins with that. The narrator says essentially that the Earth was at peace for a while but human nature being what it is, it won't last long.

Goku isn't devine, he's just dead. That's the point, he's going away because he made a deal with Shen Long.

And try though you might, the intellectual level isn't the most important level. We tell stories to reach people emotionally. Great stories break rules all the time for dramatic effect. It's knowing when and how that makes the difference.

And I can't take terms like "asspull" seriously. If you want to make substantive criticisms, talk about theme, story, characters, and talk about setups, pay offs, deus ex machina, etc.
Last edited by ABED on Sun May 21, 2023 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun May 21, 2023 10:03 am

Ironically while I do agree these ideas are terrible I think Saturnine DIDNT make an argument that they are terrible just that they are badly executed AKA the exact opposite of what he intended to say.

Duhragonball on Tumblr makes a much better argument that these ideas were awful from the get go.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun May 21, 2023 10:22 am

ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:01 am Goku isn't devine, he's just dead. That's the point, he's going away because he made a deal with Shen Long.
I think that the two things that make Goku seem "devine" by the end of GT are the fact that he seems to absorb the Dragon Balls (which would absolutely make him basically a god) and the GT special (where he's around with no halo and that it seems like he makes Goku Jr.'s wish come true without gathering all seven Dragon Balls... never mind why he even got one since they were supposed to vanish). I mean, Goku was walking around young and without a halo even in the last episode of GT.

Anyway, it's all a matter of opinion. I always thought that GT had interesting ideas and a lot of potential. But I guess we'll never know where it could've gone since it actually did go into cancelation and we got Super. I like how the characters aged and I enjoyed the more urban setting for fights rather than abandoned grassy fields. We also got cool little nuggets like the Gohan vs. Goten fight and the Vegeta vs. Gohan fight--which were cool despite being so short (an execution issue).

But I'm not a Super hater, so I don't glamorize GT as an effect of hate for Super--something that seems to be happening. GT was so detested for so long and now all of a sudden, I see some appreciation for GT. Well, I don't want to dwell on Dragon Ball's dead and buried side story except to say that I was pretty upset that Super chose to deliberately make GT's existence a complete impossibility, but I've come to terms on that. I felt like since GT was part of the lore for so long and had so much merchandise, etc., that it was... I don't know, disrespectful to it for them to make Super contradict GT? But, screw it. Still never rewatched GT since, even though it remains the only piece of Dragon Ball content that I didn't finish in Japanese. It's been on my list for around a decade now, but I can't seem to do it. I got pretty far too--I got up to the last arc. But realistically, why? What's the point, you know?

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 21, 2023 10:42 am

TheGreatness25 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:22 am But I'm not a Super hater, so I don't glamorize GT as an effect of hate for Super--something that seems to be happening. GT was so detested for so long and now all of a sudden, I see some appreciation for GT. Well, I don't want to dwell on Dragon Ball's dead and buried side story except to say that I was pretty upset that Super chose to deliberately make GT's existence a complete impossibility, but I've come to terms on that. I felt like since GT was part of the lore for so long and had so much merchandise, etc., that it was... I don't know, disrespectful to it for them to make Super contradict GT? But, screw it. Still never rewatched GT since, even though it remains the only piece of Dragon Ball content that I didn't finish in Japanese. It's been on my list for around a decade now, but I can't seem to do it. I got pretty far too--I got up to the last arc. But realistically, why? What's the point, you know?
I'm in the process of re-watching it in Japanese, I intend to put together a video that lists all the problems of every episode. That's going to be a doozy! Not like I'm super motivated, but I made it to episode 13 so far. The funniest thing about the search for the black star DBs arc is that while it's horribly written, paced and choreographed, it actually doesn't break any rules of the world. It's still absolutely atrocious despite that, but at least it's inoffensive in regards to having respect for the rules of the world (if not for powerlevels). It's only when GT started trying to be like Z, did it start completely disregarding the rules of the universe - mostly due to being extremely self-referential of earlier Toei material, such as Z fillers and theatrical movies. No idea if Toei was trying to legitimize those by referencing them in GT or what, but rather than succeeding with that, they only delegitimized GT instead.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 21, 2023 10:50 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:19 am Boy do I have a Tumblr page for you!

https://www.tumblr.com/duhragonball

This Tumblr hilariously tears GT a new one constantly and scoffs at the idea of it having good ideas but poor execution.
Would be nice if you linked some more specific blog entries, I'm curious what they have to say.

Also, I didn't even realize I was criticizing the execution more than the ideas themselves. Suppose you could say that's the case. But I'd like to emphasize that when most people say GT had "good ideas but bad execution", they almost always intend to contrast it with Super, which supposedly had "bad" ideas. I see nothing about the ideas used in GT (even if with better execution they could have worked), that makes the ideas from Super look bad. Having tournaments is a tried-and-true formula with nothing inherently bad about it except the fact that they've been done before; expanding the setting to include the multiverse was a gigachad move, Zamasu was great, Moro was narratively largely a retread of Freeza/Cell but still great and Granolah's only fault was that it was low-stakes - which doesn't even necessarily have to be a problem (especially given how the stakes for the Shadow Dragon arc felt so artificially inflated in turn). So yeah, definitely not buying the prevailing narrative that Super had well-executed bad ideas while GT poorly executed good ones.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Sun May 21, 2023 10:55 am

I don't know why you would spend that much time on something negative.
TheGreatness25 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:22 am
ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:01 am Goku isn't devine, he's just dead. That's the point, he's going away because he made a deal with Shen Long.
I think that the two things that make Goku seem "devine" by the end of GT are the fact that he seems to absorb the Dragon Balls (which would absolutely make him basically a god) and the GT special (where he's around with no halo and that it seems like he makes Goku Jr.'s wish come true without gathering all seven Dragon Balls... never mind why he even got one since they were supposed to vanish). I mean, Goku was walking around young and without a halo even in the last episode of GT.

Anyway, it's all a matter of opinion. I always thought that GT had interesting ideas and a lot of potential. But I guess we'll never know where it could've gone since it actually did go into cancelation and we got Super. I like how the characters aged and I enjoyed the more urban setting for fights rather than abandoned grassy fields. We also got cool little nuggets like the Gohan vs. Goten fight and the Vegeta vs. Gohan fight--which were cool despite being so short (an execution issue).

But I'm not a Super hater, so I don't glamorize GT as an effect of hate for Super--something that seems to be happening. GT was so detested for so long and now all of a sudden, I see some appreciation for GT. Well, I don't want to dwell on Dragon Ball's dead and buried side story except to say that I was pretty upset that Super chose to deliberately make GT's existence a complete impossibility, but I've come to terms on that. I felt like since GT was part of the lore for so long and had so much merchandise, etc., that it was... I don't know, disrespectful to it for them to make Super contradict GT? But, screw it. Still never rewatched GT since, even though it remains the only piece of Dragon Ball content that I didn't finish in Japanese. It's been on my list for around a decade now, but I can't seem to do it. I got pretty far too--I got up to the last arc. But realistically, why? What's the point, you know?
Keep in mind that the TV special was written before the finale.

I never took it that Goku is absorbing the Dragon Balls. And as a consequence of overusing the DBs, Goku makes a deal with Shen Long to become a god?

I don't think Super contradicting GT is disrespectful. Why would it be?

As for a reason to reach the finish line on GT, if you enjoy it, why not finish. If it's out of duty, then don't. It's a waste of time. If your belief that being non-canon is the reason to not continue, then I think it's an odd reason.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 21, 2023 11:24 am

ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:55 am As for a reason to reach the finish line on GT, if you enjoy it, why not finish. If it's out of duty, then don't. It's a waste of time. If your belief that being non-canon is the reason to not continue, then I think it's an odd reason.
Something being non-canon is a good reason not to worry about something if you don't like it, but not a reason to not like it in the first place. But in the specific case of GT, it being non-canon could be described as a problem in and of itself, or more accurately - the symptoms of a problem. GT was all too eager to build its stories off contradictory Z filler written by Toei writers who didn't know any better. Meaning that if you care stuff like timeline consistency or the workings of the universe at all, huge parts of GT simply couldn't happen. Some people mind this less than others, I suppose it just depends on how much you're willing to suspend your disbelief for.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun May 21, 2023 12:01 pm

There's some logic fallacies in the Black Star arc (why exactly did the Nameless Namekian create dragon balls that would scatter across the universe and blow up the planet they were used on if they aren't gathered in a year? Seems more like a Piccolo Daimao thing) but it was at least interesting going back to the first arc's adventure style but marrying to later Dragon Ball by setting it out in space and with absurdly high stakes. Shame the actual arc was really boring.

17 fusing with another 17 and becoming Super 17 is whatever but expanding on Z movie 12's the old villains escape from hell could have been something but it barely amounted to more than the absolute nothing it was in Fusion Reborn. But we got to see the further nerfing and clownery of Cell and Freeza that Toei started in the Afterlife Tournament arc.....yay?


The premise of "What if over relying on the Dragon Balls had actual reprecussions?" could have been good but the execution of Monsters of the Week plots was lacklustre.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Sun May 21, 2023 12:22 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:01 pm The premise of "What if over relying on the Dragon Balls had actual reprecussions?" could have been good but the execution of Monsters of the Week plots was lacklustre.
Do you mean that the execution of the monster of the week plots is the issue or that monster of the week structure was in itself a problem? I love monster of the week. In this case, some of them worked, but some of them didn't. It was nice that within a serialized narrative, to have some one and done villains.
Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:24 am
ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:55 am As for a reason to reach the finish line on GT, if you enjoy it, why not finish. If it's out of duty, then don't. It's a waste of time. If your belief that being non-canon is the reason to not continue, then I think it's an odd reason.
Something being non-canon is a good reason not to worry about something if you don't like it, but not a reason to not like it in the first place. But in the specific case of GT, it being non-canon could be described as a problem in and of itself, or more accurately - the symptoms of a problem. GT was all too eager to build its stories off contradictory Z filler written by Toei writers who didn't know any better. Meaning that if you care stuff like timeline consistency or the workings of the universe at all, huge parts of GT simply couldn't happen. Some people mind this less than others, I suppose it just depends on how much you're willing to suspend your disbelief for.
I think most people don't care about canon.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 21, 2023 12:24 pm

Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:49 amI always hear everyone saying GT has good ideas, only perhaps poor execution. Why is that?
Because that's the case. :shifty:
Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:49 am- The black star DB arc was a horrible idea, forcing an early DB convention while completely disregarding the power and abilities that the protagonists wielded at that time, which could only have ended up a mess impossible to suspend disbelief for
You may want to elaborate more on that. It's because of their powers and abilities that either one of these three (or all of them) could happen:

• They have an easy journey. No one is a match for Goku.
• They have a random/so-so journey. Collecting the Dragon Balls would vary from an easy task to an impossible one.
• They have a difficult journey. The Universe is vast, and with no Dragon Ball Super's nonsense that there are only twenty-eight planets with life (and with Kibitoshin probably doing his job of creating more planets and life), this makes it possible to come up with a lot of powerful individuals.

Nothing was disregarded, these three situations are all viable.
Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:49 am- Piccolo's death was a bad idea, as the writers forgot DBs can be destroyed without requiring their creator to die. They tried salvaging that later with Piccolo's hell scenes, but even that was abysmal
I don't remember much, but was there time enough to save Piccolo? I remember his interaction with Gohan but that's it. Well, be that as it may, it's the fact that Toei actually killed a major character, while we know they are all safe with Toriyama on board. Now, while that doesn't necessarily improve the writing, it shows the aforementioned ambition that we don't see anymore (which does improve the overall quality in my book).
Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:49 am- The Shadow Dragons arc - (...) Shenron himself could be killed by someone of King Piccolo's level (260 BP if memory serves), so producing some of the most powerful foes is rather unbelievable
I don't see the correlation here. I don't think Shenlong itself is even a part of the whole ordeal, it's the wishes and the energy accumulated onto the balls themselves. While I see where you're coming from, I still think you are overthinking it. Villains will come and they have to be stronger than the previous ones, it's always been like that and we always had to handwave and roll our eyes, so I can buy the dragons being that strong. And even then, not all of them were that strong, at least not in the point in time they appeared. Wasn't Two-Star Dragon defeated by Pan? I think I recall Toei spamming Super Saiyan 4 when that wasn't needed in one of those fights too.
Saturnine wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:49 amSo yeah, I think even the "ideas" layer of GT has some serious, serious problems.
Maybe that's why people say it has "good ideas", not "perfect ideas". Still more enjoyable than tournaments and retellings all the time, right?
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun May 21, 2023 12:26 pm

ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:22 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:01 pm The premise of "What if over relying on the Dragon Balls had actual reprecussions?" could have been good but the execution of Monsters of the Week plots was lacklustre.
Do you mean that the execution of the monster of the week plots is the issue or that monster of the week structure was in itself a problem? I love monster of the week. In this case, some of them worked, but some of them didn't. It was nice that within a serialized narrative, to have some one and done villains.
I'd say the monster of the week structure. Motw isn't innately a bad formula and I've enjoyed plenty of shows that use it (Super Sentai, Sailor Moon, Buffy, early Smallville) but it seem uninspired going that route to show what happens when the dragon balls get overused.
Grimlock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:24 pm [". Still more enjoyable than tournaments and retellings all the time, right?
Yeah, I hate it when a martial arts show has martial arts tournaments :x.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 21, 2023 12:34 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:26 pmYeah, I hate it when a martial arts show has martial arts tournaments :x.
No, don't get mad. You can have your "martial arts" in a more interesting setting than that. :)
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Shaddy » Sun May 21, 2023 1:10 pm

Yeah, but GT isn't that setting. It sucks.

Thing is, I'm not sure how real "good idea"s actually are. A concept can have more or less-obvious potential, and there may be ideas that are difficult or ostensibly-impossible to execute well in some cases, but there's nothing that is good by premise alone, and I think when people defend GT on the basis that it has "good ideas", what they're really saying is that they want people to judge the show by what it would be if it's concepts were delivered well, instead of by...y'know, the show. Similarly, getting all sweaty over "retellings and tournaments" is asking for the inverse of this, to demand people adopt a "tournament bad" framing without actually elaborating on what things a given story does or doesn't do well.

All that being said, I think it's easy to see the appeal in the version of GT that exists in the fantasy land it's defenders make up. The big one is the Dragon Balls having a negative consequence from use and overuse, since yeah, the main cast are kind of conceited in how they treat objects that used to hold a lot of spiritual significance. I think tsufurians trying to get revenge on the saiyan cast for the actions of the past is also full of potential, (though with the Granolah arc being a big pile of meh I'm a bit burnt out on it), as is a villain who functions off of possession. But that's not a point in GT's favor, it's an invitation for new material to make GT obselete.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Saturnine » Sun May 21, 2023 1:21 pm

ABED wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:22 pm I think most people don't care about canon.
That's because they don't fully appreciate the ramifications of that.

There are some striking differences between canon material and fillers, which can confuse the hell out of people in more ways than one if an equal sign is put between them.

For example: canon teaches us that only heroes get to keep their bodies after death as a special favor, while other people's souls get cleansed while remaining disembodied.

Filler on the other hand has literally everyone keep their bodies, and even be able to run around in hell causing trouble.

Then again there's filler that contradicts earlier filler - for example in Z at the very least the villains roaming hell with their bodies intact still had halos. In GT on the other hand, the writers thought the halo symbolizes your status as a denizen of heaven - you lose it when you are doomed to hell.

So as it turns out, the people writing fillers often had very little idea about how the source material is supposed to work, hence all the contradictions. If you say filler is equally as valid and important as Toriyama's material, you end up confused and possibly with a lower opinion of the series as a whole.

Another example would be the idea that prevails among a lot of the community, that "power levels are bullshit". But if you look at only the canon material, you find much more consistency: a decisive power advantage usually leads to a swift victory (unlike in filler, where fights among uneven opponents are dragged out), and power chains are generally respected. GT, on the other hand, gives us:

a pile of pavement bricks -> base Trunks -> Mutchy -> SSj Goku -> Kid Buu.

I know the convention of that part of the series was supposed to be humorous, but that's still inexcusable.

So as you can see, there are plenty more reasons to care about canonicity than just continuity.

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