Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Zephyr » Tue May 23, 2023 2:36 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:16 pm Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh... that's just utter fanfiction on your part. I dont see GT doing anything with any old elements of Dragon Ball other than the Road Trip feel of the first arc.
What about the Tsufruians?

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue May 23, 2023 2:40 pm

OOPS FORGOT MY OWN ARGUMENT I AM A MORON.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue May 23, 2023 3:03 pm

I'm not going to lie, I could watch a million remakes of "the villains all return from Hell and invade the Earth" because I just love seeing the characters all interact after time has passed. It also means letting characters who didn't previously interact do so. My major problems with Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta and the Super #17 arc is that they do not flesh out those interactions enough because of their limited runtime and focus on a new character. I was quite a fan of seeing the brief moments that we did get, though.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue May 23, 2023 3:07 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 3:03 pm I'm not going to lie, I could watch a million remakes of "the villains all return from Hell and invade the Earth" because I just love seeing the characters all interact after time has passed. It also means letting characters who didn't previously interact do so. My major problems with Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta and the Super #17 arc is that they do not flesh out those interactions enough because of their limited runtime and focus on a new character. I was quite a fan of seeing the brief moments that we did get, though.
That's my thing too. The concept of old villains returning from hell is one of those fun tropes so who cares if it's done multiple times?

But the execution in Dragon Ball had been lacklustre.

The villains from hell cameo in Rebirth of Fusion was like...10 second max and didn't amount to more than Gohan punching Freeza in the gut

And the Super 17 version wasn't much bettee

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue May 23, 2023 3:37 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 3:07 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 3:03 pm I'm not going to lie, I could watch a million remakes of "the villains all return from Hell and invade the Earth" because I just love seeing the characters all interact after time has passed. It also means letting characters who didn't previously interact do so. My major problems with Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta and the Super #17 arc is that they do not flesh out those interactions enough because of their limited runtime and focus on a new character. I was quite a fan of seeing the brief moments that we did get, though.
That's my thing too. The concept of old villains returning from hell is one of those fun tropes so who cares if it's done multiple times?

But the execution in Dragon Ball had been lacklustre.

The villains from hell cameo in Rebirth of Fusion was like...10 second max and didn't amount to more than Gohan punching Freeza in the gut

And the Super 17 version wasn't much bettee
Yeah, it was such a shame! Like, it doesn't even need to be a big, franchise-changing event, either! Start with a beginning (enemies from Hell/heroes from Heaven) leak back into the world of the living! Characters interact and are fight, with the focus characters hitting walls in their growth as fighters and people and then force them to confront those weaknesses before overcoming them and defeating their enemy. Voila, basic story.

Like, I hate how these storylines always try to put the toys back into the box in the same way they were found. Change things! These stories don't need to fit within the rest of the franchise's running story, do unpredictable things! Kill of characters for good! Focus on other characters, let them grow in new ways!

Dragon Ball restrains itself too damned much! Let stuff be self-contained so that they can end wildly!
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Grimlock » Tue May 23, 2023 4:52 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 3:37 pmLike, I hate how these storylines always try to put the toys back into the box in the same way they were found. Change things! These stories don't need to fit within the rest of the franchise's running story, do unpredictable things! Kill of characters for good! Focus on other characters, let them grow in new ways!

Dragon Ball restrains itself too damned much! Let stuff be self-contained so that they can end wildly!
NooOoOoo000OoOooOo0!11!1!!1! It's not cannon, so it won't matter. If Aquira is not there, then what good is what you are proposing? We are fine with the way things are, the franchise is in a very good spot right now. What's coming out is cannon, so it matters. Please understand that the restraint is Dragon Ball's charming, no reason to change anything. Gimme tournaments, gimme retellings instead of letting things grow. I want MaRtIAls ArTs in a mArTiAlS aRtS series. To hell with interactions, story, lore, worldbuilding, exploration... all of this is irrelevant. Goku is Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball is Goku, why would you want to focus on other characters? Unbelievable! Also, recoloring Super Saiyan is wild and rad enough.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by FoolsGil » Tue May 23, 2023 5:11 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:47 am
FoolsGil wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:33 am I didn't say anything about any arc being original. I said it's a good idea. That's what the conversation is about.
You implied that Super doesn't deal with the theme of "Negative consequences of Over-using Dragon Balls" because Bulma in Super uses the DBs for silly wishes. I'm correcting you by pointing out that Super indeed deals with the theme of "over-using DBs", but the negative consequences are felt by the villains and not the heroes (unlike GT). But the last manga arc, the Granolah Survivor arc, was all about the main villains paying a heavy price for misusing the Dragon Balls.
That doesn't matter. Great, so the Villains and antagonist suffer from wishing on the dragonballs. I know and acknowledge it. Now, Is the idea of negative consequences of dragonball overuse a good idea or a bad idea? If it's not a good idea, then say so. Otherwise, well now you know why some people say that particular GT arc had a good idea, the reason of this conversation.

Zephyr wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:19 am
FoolsGil wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:36 pmHunt for the Dragonballs Arc: Consider the alternative on this one: Super. Once again a powerful villain is threatening the Earth, galaxy, universe, or what have you, and so Goku and maybe Vegeta are going to train, unlock a new transformation, get a new move, and then the villain is defeated...And then repeat with the next arc. At least the writers of GT said "Well lets try and do something different."
I'm not sure I'd paint GT's rehashing of Dragon Ball's first story arc as "the writers trying something different". Especially when the 10th anniversary movie (which released between GT's 4th and 5th episodes) did the same thing, only more explicitly; it was even scripted by Aya Matsui, who also scripted 10 episodes of GT's "Hunt for the Dragon Balls" arc.
Not doing something different in relation to what we've seen in the first arc of Dragonball. Doing something different in relation to what was seen in the previous series of Z, and shonen in general. That's what I was making a point of.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue May 23, 2023 5:15 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 3:03 pm I'm not going to lie, I could watch a million remakes of "the villains all return from Hell and invade the Earth" because I just love seeing the characters all interact after time has passed. It also means letting characters who didn't previously interact do so. My major problems with Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta and the Super #17 arc is that they do not flesh out those interactions enough because of their limited runtime and focus on a new character. I was quite a fan of seeing the brief moments that we did get, though.
I totally agree. The villains coming back in Fusion Reborn and Super #17 were just bad fan service. 99% of the characters were killed off screen and we never seen any cool interactions with them. How cool would have been if Kuririn killed Tambourine for pay back. Also, having Gohan fight against Raditz would have been nice too. You could have Uub meet Babidi too. Unlike DBZ Movie 12, you have more time to do something with the story.

I would got rid the idea of a Super 17 to begin with. The idea of two 17s into one big stronger one feels dumb and unoriginal. We could have gotten a new cyborg instead, but nah.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Tue May 23, 2023 5:29 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:36 pm GT is just as a big bag of old stuff rehashed into one. I feel like if you want to rehash something, try to do something new or interesting with it. Most of the rehashes in GT sometime feels lazy. The Black Star Dragon Ball Hunt has scenes that were cringy when they try to re-create some scenes from the Pilaf saga. The Baby saga takes stuff from the Cell saga, Buu saga, Garlic Jr saga, and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans. It's better than Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans when it comes to the idea of the Tsufruian wanting revenge, but that's not a high bar.

I give the Shadow Dragon saga trying to do something new, but the ending still felt like the defeat of Kid Buu all over again.
I get where you're coming from regarding the final fight ending the way it did, but it feels more earned here and thematically on point. If you tell a story where the heroes go on a big quest around the galaxy, bringing those characters back in some form feels right for the ending. The reasons Vegeta gives for the Genki Dama against Buu don't quite make sense.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue May 23, 2023 8:29 pm

I would not consider the ending of the Evil Dragons to be a rehash of Boo, outside of the fact that they both involve the Genki Dama. If any part of that arc could be seen as a rehash, it’s the part with Gogeta, which is basically Vegetto vs. Boo all over again.

Personally, I think a major problem with the Evil Dragons arc in general is that you don’t really feel the gravity of the situation up until the second to last episode. For all the talk about how the dragons were born as a consequence for the over reliance on the Dragon Balls, most of them come across more as an inconvenience, rather than genuine threats to the world. To its credit, episode 63 does a genuinely good job of making the final battle feel like a completely hopeless and tense situation for the heroes.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Wed May 24, 2023 12:57 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:16 pm Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh... that's just utter fanfiction on your part. I dont see GT doing anything with any old elements of Dragon Ball other than the Road Trip feel of the first arc.
Huh?

1. They went on a trip to find the Dragon Balls. Like the original series.

2. Saiyan's past transgressions lead to Baby.

3. Super 17 HEAVILY features elements of R&R.

4. The Dragons are literally retribution for their past Dragon Ball use.

You're joking, right? GT literally does nothing but add more lore on previous ideas. That's all it does.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed May 24, 2023 5:08 am

FoolsGil wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:11 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:47 am
FoolsGil wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:33 am I didn't say anything about any arc being original. I said it's a good idea. That's what the conversation is about.
You implied that Super doesn't deal with the theme of "Negative consequences of Over-using Dragon Balls" because Bulma in Super uses the DBs for silly wishes. I'm correcting you by pointing out that Super indeed deals with the theme of "over-using DBs", but the negative consequences are felt by the villains and not the heroes (unlike GT). But the last manga arc, the Granolah Survivor arc, was all about the main villains paying a heavy price for misusing the Dragon Balls.
That doesn't matter. Great, so the Villains and antagonist suffer from wishing on the dragonballs. I know and acknowledge it. Now, Is the idea of negative consequences of dragonball overuse a good idea or a bad idea? If it's not a good idea, then say so. Otherwise, well now you know why some people say that particular GT arc had a good idea, the reason of this conversation.
It is a bad idea and not nearly as original or deep as some people think it is.

Why should the entire UNIVERSE, ALL OF CREATION (Because in GT there is ONLY ONE Universe) literally be destroyed by darkness simply because some dumb random person wished for a pair of underwear 30 years ago?

Never mind the fact that the premise itself makes 0 sense. The Shadow Dragons are created to "punish" people for "misusing" the Dragon Balls, except that the vast majority of those dragons, except for, like, 1 or 2, were created by selfless and noble wishes that revived innocent lives.

For instance, the strongest dragon, Syn Shenron, was created from the most selfless wish imaginable: the wish that revived all the innocent people (children included) who were slaughtered by Frieza and his men on Namek.

So why exactly does the Universe and mortals need to be punished with extinction for making a selfless wish that revived countless innocent children (including Dende) back to life? Where is the logic in that? How were the Dragon Balls "misused" for that wish?

Super did a much better job in creating a storyline where the villain blames the mortals for something they did. It made much more sense and was much more logical when Zamasu blamed Trunks for time-travelling, because we know for a fact that travelling through time caused a huge chaos in the timelines and disrupted the flow of time itself and so it is understandable why the Gods of Creation (like Zamasu and Gowasu) would reprimand Trunks for doing this. Even Beerus was furious when he heard about time-travelling and he warned Goku never to mention it to Grand Zeno or he'd get pissed off and decide to erase the multiverse.

Meanwhile, Syn Shenron blaming mortals for "Misusing" the DBs makes absolutely 0 sense, considering how he was created from a wish that revived innocent children who were slaughtered by a tyrant. How were the DBs were "misused" when Dende and his friends were brought back to life?

It literally makes 0 sense to blame mortals and wish for their extinction just because some guy wished for a pair of underwear 30 years ago (the only time that the DBs were ACTUALLY misused), especially since 99% of the times the Dragon Balls were used for noble and selfless reasons (like reviving innocent people).

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Zephyr » Wed May 24, 2023 9:22 am

FoolsGil wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:11 pmNot doing something different in relation to what we've seen in the first arc of Dragonball. Doing something different in relation to what was seen in the previous series of Z, and shonen in general. That's what I was making a point of.
So, less "doing something different" in general and more "doing something different from what the series directly preceding it would do" specifically. Not how I would have phrased it to get that point across, but I think get what you're saying now: GT tried to do more than be a sequel to "DBZ", while Super just leaned all in on it.

Grimlock wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 4:52 pmNooOoOoo000OoOooOo0!11!1!!1! It's not cannon, so it won't matter. If Aquira is not there, then what good is what you are proposing? We are fine with the way things are, the franchise is in a very good spot right now. What's coming out is cannon, so it matters. Please understand that the restraint is Dragon Ball's charming, no reason to change anything. Gimme tournaments, gimme retellings instead of letting things grow. I want MaRtIAls ArTs in a mArTiAlS aRtS series. To hell with interactions, story, lore, worldbuilding, exploration... all of this is irrelevant. Goku is Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball is Goku, why would you want to focus on other characters? Unbelievable! Also, recoloring Super Saiyan is wild and rad enough.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed May 24, 2023 9:59 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:08 am Why should the entire UNIVERSE, ALL OF CREATION (Because in GT there is ONLY ONE Universe) literally be destroyed by darkness simply because some dumb random person wished for a pair of underwear 30 years ago?
Because that kind of irreverence has always been a part of Dragon Ball. The world and universe being doomed because of a dumb wish is the kind of irreverent premise I could easily see Toriyama himself writing (which is ironic considering how the anime writers usually aren't good at emulating Toriyama's writing style).

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed May 24, 2023 10:47 am

Majin Buu wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:59 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:08 am Why should the entire UNIVERSE, ALL OF CREATION (Because in GT there is ONLY ONE Universe) literally be destroyed by darkness simply because some dumb random person wished for a pair of underwear 30 years ago?
Because that kind of irreverence has always been a part of Dragon Ball. The world and universe being doomed because of a dumb wish is the kind of irreverent premise I could easily see Toriyama himself writing (which is ironic considering how the anime writers usually aren't good at emulating Toriyama's writing style).
If you could "easily see this happening" because it has "always been part of Dragon Ball", why is it original or creative?

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Shaddy » Wed May 24, 2023 10:52 am

Grimlock wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 4:52 pm NooOoOoo000OoOooOo0!11!1!!1! It's not cannon, so it won't matter. If Aquira is not there, then what good is what you are proposing? We are fine with the way things are, the franchise is in a very good spot right now. What's coming out is cannon, so it matters. Please understand that the restraint is Dragon Ball's charming, no reason to change anything. Gimme tournaments, gimme retellings instead of letting things grow. I want MaRtIAls ArTs in a mArTiAlS aRtS series. To hell with interactions, story, lore, worldbuilding, exploration... all of this is irrelevant. Goku is Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball is Goku, why would you want to focus on other characters? Unbelievable! Also, recoloring Super Saiyan is wild and rad enough.
Big talk coming from a dude whose definition of "interactions, story, lore, worldbuilding, exploration" is fucking this.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed May 24, 2023 11:01 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 10:47 am If you could "easily see this happening" because it has "always been part of Dragon Ball", why is it original or creative?
I never claimed it was.

My point was that complaining about that irreverence seems silly when irreverence has always been present in Dragon Ball.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Zephyr » Wed May 24, 2023 11:29 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:08 amWhy should the entire UNIVERSE, ALL OF CREATION (Because in GT there is ONLY ONE Universe) literally be destroyed by darkness simply because some dumb random person wished for a pair of underwear 30 years ago?
Because the incongruity is funny, as is typically the case for Dragon Ball.

There's "I want to consume something original from Dragon Ball", and there's "I want to consume something so unlike Dragon Ball I might as well just consume something else".

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Grimlock » Wed May 24, 2023 1:01 pm

Zephyr wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:22 amYou alright man?
I am, thanks for asking! :) You didn't get the point of the post?
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed May 24, 2023 2:24 pm

Never mind the fact that the premise itself makes 0 sense. The Shadow Dragons are created to "punish" people for "misusing" the Dragon Balls, except that the vast majority of those dragons, except for, like, 1 or 2, were created by selfless and noble wishes that revived innocent lives.

For instance, the strongest dragon, Syn Shenron, was created from the most selfless wish imaginable: the wish that revived all the innocent people (children included) who were slaughtered by Frieza and his men on Namek.

So why exactly does the Universe and mortals need to be punished with extinction for making a selfless wish that revived countless innocent children (including Dende) back to life? Where is the logic in that? How were the Dragon Balls "misused" for that wish?

Meanwhile, Syn Shenron blaming mortals for "Misusing" the DBs makes absolutely 0 sense, considering how he was created from a wish that revived innocent children who were slaughtered by a tyrant. How were the DBs were "misused" when Dende and his friends were brought back to life?

It literally makes 0 sense to blame mortals and wish for their extinction just because some guy wished for a pair of underwear 30 years ago (the only time that the DBs were ACTUALLY misused), especially since 99% of the times the Dragon Balls were used for noble and selfless reasons (like reviving innocent people).
The idea is that even good or selfless wishes unnaturally warp the universe. At the end of the day, death is supposed to be final. Even if someone gets killed unjustly, their natural fate is to go to the Other World and be reincarnated, not be resurrected exactly how they were. Shenron drags their souls from another realm and has to painstakingly remake their bodies. Occasionally, he even has to rebuild entire cities that were destroyed. It's jarring that whenever someone dies, our heroes' first instinct is to reverse the death rather than accept it and grieve healthily.

I can also see the logic in the heroes' wishes being more disruptive to the natural order, on a much larger scale than the villainous or stupid wishes. Piccolo Sr. wishing for youth or Oolong wishing for panties is nothing compared to reviving millions of people at once. While they make a play on the morally upstanding wishes generating the most evil and powerful Shadow Dragons, I think the scale of the wishes is also part of it.

On paper, the Shadow Dragons work reasonably well as an antagonistic force that everyone can unite against because nearly everyone is guilty of abusing the Dragon Balls, including the gods (except Elder Kaioshin, but even he is complicit in their use despite his vocal reservations).

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