How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

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How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by DBZ Expert » Wed May 31, 2023 2:04 pm

And please don't bring Kai into it because I can being all the other retarded fillers of Kai, like SSjin Goku and Vegeta holding their own vs Gohan-Boo or against Evil Boo. This is manga only. I like the idea of Base Vegetto ~ Ultimate Gohan. Seems good Both base Goku and Vegeta's power combined with Potata reaching to Gohan's potential beyond his limits. If the SSjin ia 50x and applies for fusion (I see nothing that says otherwise), then Base Vegetto would be even weaker than Evil Boo. SSjin Vegetto was massively ahead of Gohan-Boo but there is no reason for the gap to be more than just several times stronger.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Kaboom » Wed May 31, 2023 2:08 pm

Given that he jumped right into Super Saiyan in the manga, his base-form strength is best summed up as "unquantified and unimportant." It could be basically anything, as long as the result is that his Super Saiyan strength is still way stronger than Boo. Beyond that, it's almost entirely just a fan-speculation and personal-numbers deal.
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 31, 2023 2:15 pm

Kaboom wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:08 pm Given that he jumped right into Super Saiyan in the manga, his base-form strength is best summed up as "unquantified and unimportant." It could be basically anything, as long as the result is that his Super Saiyan strength is still way stronger than Boo. Beyond that, it's almost entirely just a fan-speculation and personal-numbers deal.
Daizenshuu 7 also suggests he’s stronger than SSJ3 Goku. His bio goes like “He’s even stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and on top of that he can become a SSJ too!” which helps to narrow down the scope a lot.
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Kaboom » Wed May 31, 2023 2:35 pm

Yeah, but D7 is kind of an all-inclusive volume that doesn't really favor either the manga or anime, so that bit could be its way of acknowledging his base-form filler fight. Still, nothing wrong with estimating him on that level depending on however one thinks Fusion works.
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed May 31, 2023 2:42 pm

DBS supports the fan-theory that base fusion tends to be on equal footing with the strongest form of its fusees, basically picking up where the fusee's, at their strongest, left off. Slightly above that, actually.

Thing is, in DBS the saiyans share their strongest forms, but in Z, Goku had one more than Geets. So base Vegito is either SS3 Goku tier, or as strong as the strongest shared form of the fusees: SS2.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Yuji » Wed May 31, 2023 4:01 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:42 pm DBS supports the fan-theory that base fusion tends to be on equal footing with the strongest form of its fusees, basically picking up where the fusee's, at their strongest, left off. Slightly above that, actually.

Thing is, in DBS the saiyans share their strongest forms, but in Z, Goku had one more than Geets. So base Vegito is either SS3 Goku tier, or as strong as the strongest shared form of the fusees: SS2.
Didn't Daizenshuu also claim base Gotenks was superior to Majin Vegeta? The kids aren't far off from the adults in this arc so even with the rival and Potara boost I'm not sure I'd be comfortable having Vegetto as over 4x stronger.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by theherodjl » Wed May 31, 2023 10:27 pm

Assuming the anime or anime-associated guides aren't taken into account at all, I put it like this.

Super Boo is triple the strength of SSJ3 Goku, if Goku's fear of taking him on even with Vegeta's help is any indication, and if he is able to challenge SSJ3 Gotenks for a bit.

Boohan is around two and a half times the strength of Super Boo.

Super Vegetto is considerably stronger than Boohan, as he can spar Boohan with just his feet alone. We'll say it's a four-fold difference though.

3 x 2.5 x 4 = 30.

Super Vegetto is 30x stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

If Base Goku is a 1 while SSJ3 Goku is a 400, then Super Vegetto is 12,000. Divide 12,000 by SSJ's multiplier of 50 and you get Base Vegetto at 240.

Manga Base Vegetto is a little stronger than the combined strength of SSJ2 Goku & SSJ2 Vegeta. It's not as absolutely bonkers as how the anime depicts it but I'd say fusion is still pretty strong in the context of the original manga run.
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:45 am

Yuji wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:01 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:42 pm DBS supports the fan-theory that base fusion tends to be on equal footing with the strongest form of its fusees, basically picking up where the fusee's, at their strongest, left off. Slightly above that, actually.

Thing is, in DBS the saiyans share their strongest forms, but in Z, Goku had one more than Geets. So base Vegito is either SS3 Goku tier, or as strong as the strongest shared form of the fusees: SS2.
Didn't Daizenshuu also claim base Gotenks was superior to Majin Vegeta? The kids aren't far off from the adults in this arc so even with the rival and Potara boost I'm not sure I'd be comfortable having Vegetto as over 4x stronger.
I don't mind others giving credit to ancillary material, but to me it's as valid as filler without having TOEI writers involved.
Anyway, base Gotenks came home with a beating after an unseen fight(is unclear what form was used or how serious Buu got), while Majin Vegeta stood his ground and chose to die there, I don't see based on what base Gotenks would be stronger than Majin Vegeta with so many unclear variables(anime aside, that is).
In fact, the gap between the fusions compared to the gap between the fusees(specially after the ROSAT) makes me believe the difference lies in the adult fusees having more forms than the children.

Mind you this is just a fan-theory trying to retroactively make sense of something that was never created with "sense" in mind.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:14 am

Yuji wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:01 pmDidn't Daizenshuu also claim base Gotenks was superior to Majin Vegeta?
Nothing so specific. It said that after his RoSaT training, Gotenks "leveled up so much that he surpassed Vegeta and the others." It doesn't indicate that he did so within his base form or any other particular state, and by "leveled up" it could even potentially mean that gaining SS3 is what did it. Since that volume was anime-inclusive, it's probably just a weirdly-worded way of dancing around the idea of anyone in the arc being stronger than Goku.
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Seekeroftruth » Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:15 pm

Yuji wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:01 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:42 pm DBS supports the fan-theory that base fusion tends to be on equal footing with the strongest form of its fusees, basically picking up where the fusee's, at their strongest, left off. Slightly above that, actually.

Thing is, in DBS the saiyans share their strongest forms, but in Z, Goku had one more than Geets. So base Vegito is either SS3 Goku tier, or as strong as the strongest shared form of the fusees: SS2.
Didn't Daizenshuu also claim base Gotenks was superior to Majin Vegeta? The kids aren't far off from the adults in this arc so even with the rival and Potara boost I'm not sure I'd be comfortable having Vegetto as over 4x stronger.
The kids are weaker than 18.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Yuji » Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:28 pm

Seekeroftruth wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:15 pm
Yuji wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:01 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:42 pm DBS supports the fan-theory that base fusion tends to be on equal footing with the strongest form of its fusees, basically picking up where the fusee's, at their strongest, left off. Slightly above that, actually.

Thing is, in DBS the saiyans share their strongest forms, but in Z, Goku had one more than Geets. So base Vegito is either SS3 Goku tier, or as strong as the strongest shared form of the fusees: SS2.
Didn't Daizenshuu also claim base Gotenks was superior to Majin Vegeta? The kids aren't far off from the adults in this arc so even with the rival and Potara boost I'm not sure I'd be comfortable having Vegetto as over 4x stronger.
The kids are weaker than 18.
In the Boo arc? Definitely not. Gohan claimed Goten was close to his level and he was worried about Trunks when Goten said he was even stronger. The boys also pushed Piccolo back when they turned Super Saiyan and 18 herself was scared shitless when SS Trunks fired a Ki blast at her and resorted to disqualifying them to win the fight. By all metrics, the boys are stronger in Super Saiyan. This is without getting into the whole debacle of whether or not the base Saiyans in this arc are stronger than Piccolo scaling from Shin.

By Super, 18 has got considerably stronger off-screen so sure.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Seekeroftruth » Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:36 pm

Yuji wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:28 pm
Seekeroftruth wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:15 pm
Yuji wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:01 pm

Didn't Daizenshuu also claim base Gotenks was superior to Majin Vegeta? The kids aren't far off from the adults in this arc so even with the rival and Potara boost I'm not sure I'd be comfortable having Vegetto as over 4x stronger.
The kids are weaker than 18.
In the Boo arc? Definitely not. Gohan claimed Goten was close to his level and he was worried about Trunks when Goten said he was even stronger. The boys also pushed Piccolo back when they turned Super Saiyan and 18 herself was scared shitless when SS Trunks fired a Ki blast at her and resorted to disqualifying them to win the fight. By all metrics, the boys are stronger in Super Saiyan. This is without getting into the whole debacle of whether or not the base Saiyans in this arc are stronger than Piccolo scaling from Shin.

By Super, 18 has got considerably stronger off-screen so sure.
Gohan didn't claim that. And we saw the boys were weaker base on their performance against 18 as mighty mask. And 18 wasn't scared, she was just suprise at how strong they were for their age and that mighty mask turned out to have SSJ powers. The boys level of power are around android saga level goku and vegeta. They are still very much below the adult saiyan males. This is even supported when the fusion ran out. Buu reverted to the next most powerful form which was Piccolo.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Yuji » Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:44 pm

Seekeroftruth wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:36 pm
Gohan didn't claim that. And we saw the boys were weaker base on their performance against 18 as mighty mask. And 18 wasn't scared, she was just suprise at how strong they were for their age and that mighty mask turned out to have SSJ powers. The boys level of power are around android saga level goku and vegeta. They are still very much below. This is even supported when the fusion ran out. Buu reverted to the next most powerful form which was Piccolo.
Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.3-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

This exchange implies Gohan is weary that Goten ans Trunks are already near his level and they'll catch up if he keeps slacking off. Goten was Gohan's sparring partner. He wouldn't be any good as a training partner if they were leagues apart in strength.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks turns Super Saiyan and prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

This exchange implies that the kids can kill #18 if they go full power. Trunks holds back and yet #18 still dodges the blast and is ridiculously scared of their strength to the point she feels the only way to win is to reveal their identity. At no point was she portrayed as superior the two outside of their base forms (where they put up a decent fight) and all contextual clues point toward the Super Saiyans being able to one shot her.

As for Boo, the kids were in base and even if they are weaker than Piccolo in Super Saiyan, it doesn't make a difference. Piccolo trained in the RoSaT for the Cell Games and held his own against a Cell Jr. At that point in the series he's leagues beyond #18 too.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Seekeroftruth » Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:42 am

Yuji wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:44 pm
Seekeroftruth wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:36 pm
Gohan didn't claim that. And we saw the boys were weaker base on their performance against 18 as mighty mask. And 18 wasn't scared, she was just suprise at how strong they were for their age and that mighty mask turned out to have SSJ powers. The boys level of power are around android saga level goku and vegeta. They are still very much below. This is even supported when the fusion ran out. Buu reverted to the next most powerful form which was Piccolo.
Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.3-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

This exchange implies Gohan is weary that Goten ans Trunks are already near his level and they'll catch up if he keeps slacking off. Goten was Gohan's sparring partner. He wouldn't be any good as a training partner if they were leagues apart in strength.


Reply: This is not what is being stated here. Gohan's statement here is of him being surprised at how strong Trunks and Goten are for their age. He is not saying these two are close to his strength but rather, if he continues to slack off and not train, they will surpass him with time. Gohan says this with knowledge of how quickly hybrid saiyans can progress in power (gohan was stronger than all the adults while still a teenager). And given that goten is much stronger than he was at that age, it is a valid concern to have. Again, Gohan is not saying they are close to him but rather given where they are at, they have a very high potential to surpass him.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks turns Super Saiyan and prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

This exchange implies that the kids can kill #18 if they go full power. Trunks holds back and yet #18 still dodges the blast and is ridiculously scared of their strength to the point she feels the only way to win is to reveal their identity. At no point was she portrayed as superior the two outside of their base forms (where they put up a decent fight) and all contextual clues point toward the Super Saiyans being able to one shot her.

Reply: Keep in mind the context of this. Android 18 went it a tournament with the assumption that only weak human fighters would be there. Finding an opponent who can actually challenge her would be a surprise and she would consider that person unusually strong. She is not saying that these kids are super strong that they exceed her in power or even that they are near her strength. She is saying this in the context of analyzing a fighter, an that prior to this, she considered human by all accounts. Also trunk's statement that they can kill android 18 is out of arrogance. Please keep in mind that this trunks is not the same as F. trunks and is arrogant, having been raised by Vegeta. This arrogance is handed over to Gotenks (who trunks dominates in personality), and was the reason why they lost to Buu the first time they fought him.


As for Boo, the kids were in base and even if they are weaker than Piccolo in Super Saiyan, it doesn't make a difference. Piccolo trained in the RoSaT for the Cell Games and held his own against a Cell Jr. At that point in the series he's leagues beyond #18 too.

Reply: It actual does and I'll explain why. Piccolo was casually defeated by Dabura and was claimed by the latter as a weaklig. The same Dabura was estimated to be perfect cell level and had difficulty against SSJ2 adult gohan. This signifies that if Piccolo is stronger than the boys and still considered trash to a perfect cell opponents then the whole idea of the boys being close to the adult saiyans in power does not make any sense. In addition, we saw clear evidence that the boys were very far apart from SSJ2 Gohan (cell saga). Majin vegeta for example casually knocked out and defeated both boys with 1 attack (while not exerting himself). And this same majin vegeta is only a little bit stronger than SSJ2 Gohan (cell saga).
You are interpreting many of these instances incorrectly. So I am going to shed some light on what actually is happening in my replies above.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by Yuji » Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:37 am

I'm not sure why you're bringing up SS2. Of course all the SS2 adults are stronger than the kids, it's a superior form. Dabra scales to SS2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell so he's way stronger than Piccolo who at best should scale slightly below a Cell Jr. Majin Vegeta was at SS2 when he knocked out the kids. The argument is that the kids scale to, while obviously being weaker than, the adults in their respective forms, base and Super Saiyan.

Again, Goten wouldn't be a good sparring partner if Gohan were dozens of times stronger in the same forms. We saw him turn away Videl specifically because she couldn't keep up. Goten has superpowers too but if he's as weak as you claim he wouldn't keep up with Gohan either. There's also the scene of them powering up at the lookout and knocking Piccolo back with their aura.

I think you're being way too charitable to #18. If you reread the scene, you can see her visibly scared at the Ki blast Trunks fired. Again, this wasn't even at full power, yet she needed to dodge, was trembling and sweating and felt the need to end the fight immediately. Android arc Vegeta meanwhile shot a big bang attack in her face and all it did was scratch her clothes. The kids are way stronger than the android arc Saiyans and scale to the Cell Games instead.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:39 pm

Given what we learned about Vegito in both versions of the Future Trunks story arc and the Broly movie, it seems fairly consistent now that the base form of Vegito/Gogeta rests at the strongest level of power that the Fusion partners both share.

In the case of DBS, it's their shared Super Saiyan Blue form.

So for Vegito in the original manga, we're looking at Super Saiyan 2 given how Goku and Vegeta were evenly matched in the same forms prior to them encountering Majin Buu.

It's not a bad metric. That's a lot stronger than Goku in equivalent forms, meaning he's several stronger as a Super Saiyan than even SS3 Goku, which could put him about Gohan-Buu.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:12 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:39 pm Given what we learned about Vegito in both versions of the Future Trunks story arc and the Broly movie, it seems fairly consistent now that the base form of Vegito/Gogeta rests at the strongest level of power that the Fusion partners both share.

In the case of DBS, it's their shared Super Saiyan Blue form.

So for Vegito in the original manga, we're looking at Super Saiyan 2 given how Goku and Vegeta were evenly matched in the same forms prior to them encountering Majin Buu.

It's not a bad metric. That's a lot stronger than Goku in equivalent forms, meaning he's several stronger as a Super Saiyan than even SS3 Goku, which could put him about Gohan-Buu.
It might make more logical sense that fusion results in the base being the combined strength of it's fusee's strongest forms. As in, Base Vegetto from the Boo arc should be as strong as SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta, given how strong he seemed to appear in the anime and how fusion has been depicted in the series since. Base Gogeta seeming to fare better against Broly than SSJB Goku & Vegeta is proof that fusion is more OP by Toei's standard.
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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:06 am

theherodjl wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:12 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:39 pm Given what we learned about Vegito in both versions of the Future Trunks story arc and the Broly movie, it seems fairly consistent now that the base form of Vegito/Gogeta rests at the strongest level of power that the Fusion partners both share.

In the case of DBS, it's their shared Super Saiyan Blue form.

So for Vegito in the original manga, we're looking at Super Saiyan 2 given how Goku and Vegeta were evenly matched in the same forms prior to them encountering Majin Buu.

It's not a bad metric. That's a lot stronger than Goku in equivalent forms, meaning he's several stronger as a Super Saiyan than even SS3 Goku, which could put him about Gohan-Buu.
It might make more logical sense that fusion results in the base being the combined strength of it's fusee's strongest forms. As in, Base Vegetto from the Boo arc should be as strong as SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta, given how strong he seemed to appear in the anime and how fusion has been depicted in the series since. Base Gogeta seeming to fare better against Broly than SSJB Goku & Vegeta is proof that fusion is more OP by Toei's standard.
The reason I put it as strong as their strongest shared state is primarily due to Gogeta's performance.

Ikari Broly was equal to SSB Goku in power, and Super Saiyan Gogeta was equal to Super Saiyan Ikari Broly in power, ergo base Gogeta would be equivalent to SSB in power.

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:50 pm

Buu was utterly confident that a Vegeta and Goku merger wouldn't be enough to beat him, but as soon as the merger actually happened, he was shocked.
I just take that as Base Vegetto at minimum being on par with Buu and call it a day🤷🏾‍♂️

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Re: How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:27 pm

Stronger than boohan.
Nothing really contradicts the axb multiplier, and he has to be stronger than ssj3 Goku by a good margin at least so ( i know I'll be controversial but i don't care at all) he's stronger than Gohan too since fullpower Goku is too in the first place

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