What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:17 pm

Who cares if they keep introducing more transformations? They can literally do both transformations and battle strategies. Tomioka Atsuhiro proved as much when Super Saiyan Blue Gokuu was fighting Jiren in Dragon Ball Super Episode #123. They should do both so that we can get both.
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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by ATA » Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:55 pm

JulieYBM wrote: โ†‘Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:17 pm Who cares if they keep introducing more transformations? They can literally do both transformations and battle strategies. Tomioka Atsuhiro proved as much when Super Saiyan Blue Gokuu was fighting Jiren in Dragon Ball Super Episode #123. They should do both so that we can get both.

I prefer a less is more approach when it comes to transformations. Too many Saiyan transformations in my opinion. I enjoyed Piccolo's new forms because it's a breath of fresh air. Beast Gohan is a rehash, Blue is just DBS's Super Saiyan minus everything that made Super Saiyan cool, Blue Evolution is a rehash, Whatever Trunks transformed into during the Black arc was.... awkward, Ultra instinct is a clusterfuck as of lately despite being cool in ToP, Ultra Ego is cool in concept but execution didn't meet expectations, and I think the Red God form is cool for what is was 10 years ago.

I would've been fine with transformations if they were more thought out (granted this is a kids show). But it's honestly lost it's flair a long time ago stu. Something I will credit them with is giving Beast Gohan and UI Goku iconic moments. Blue had lor(little) to no momentum since it's debut. I think Goku getting shot from that Lazer beam left a bad taste in people's mouths and kinda devalued Blue before Blue had time to build respect. We've seen SSJ drag, We've seen SSJ2 drag, We've seen SSJ3 drag, and so on. Unless you count Kaioken Blue...I don't believe Blue ever had a "I'M HIM" moment. Hell ToP even ended with SSJ Goku rather than Blue Goku. I don't think that wasn't a business decision.

Having transformations is fine if they leave an impact and to me they have not. So I would prefer if Dragon Ball didn't add new forms for the sake of having them. I'll rather see new ki attacks than transformations.
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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:05 pm

ATA wrote: โ†‘Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:55 pm
JulieYBM wrote: โ†‘Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:17 pm Who cares if they keep introducing more transformations? They can literally do both transformations and battle strategies. Tomioka Atsuhiro proved as much when Super Saiyan Blue Gokuu was fighting Jiren in Dragon Ball Super Episode #123. They should do both so that we can get both.

I prefer a less is more approach when it comes to transformations. Too many Saiyan transformations in my opinion. I enjoyed Piccolo's new forms because it's a breath of fresh air. Beast Gohan is a rehash, Blue is just DBS's Super Saiyan minus everything that made Super Saiyan cool, Blue Evolution is a rehash, Whatever Trunks transformed into during the Black arc was.... awkward, Ultra instinct is a clusterfuck as of lately despite being cool in ToP, Ultra Ego is cool in concept but execution didn't meet expectations, and I think the Red God form is cool for what is was 10 years ago.

I would've been fine with transformations if they were more thought out (granted this is a kids show). But it's honestly lost it's flair a long time ago stu. Something I will credit them with is giving Beast Gohan and UI Goku iconic moments. Blue had lor(little) to no momentum since it's debut. I think Goku getting shot from that Lazer beam left a bad taste in people's mouths and kinda devalued Blue before Blue had time to build respect. We've seen SSJ drag, We've seen SSJ2 drag, We've seen SSJ3 drag, and so on. Unless you count Kaioken Blue...I don't believe Blue ever had a "I'M HIM" moment. Hell ToP even ended with SSJ Goku rather than Blue Goku. I don't think that wasn't a business decision.

Having transformations is fine if they leave an impact and to me they have not. So I would prefer if Dragon Ball didn't add new forms for the sake of having them. I'll rather see new ki attacks than transformations.
I'm not exactly arguing for transformations to not be framed around character work (Dragon Ball in general needs to stop being so trigger shy about Doing the Work, as it were), either. I just think the argument of less of one for the sake of another is a weird one to make.
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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:49 pm

There are too many transformations as is. I was able to tolerate them up to Ultra Instinct, but Ultra Ego, Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan are just too much, and look very silly. They look like those DeviantArt drawings youโ€™d see back in the day.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:37 pm

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Skar » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:09 pm

WittyUsername wrote: โ†‘Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:49 pm There are too many transformations as is. I was able to tolerate them up to Ultra Instinct, but Ultra Ego, Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan are just too much, and look very silly. They look like those DeviantArt drawings youโ€™d see back in the day.
That's what makes them a subversion of expectations because no one expected them to be used officially :P.

I still believe UI will be Goku's last form. It's been a few years since the form was introduced and Toriyama still hasn't used it in any film. The manga still has him trying to master it since the ToP.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:17 pm

I hate to keep asking "who gives a shit", but...who gives a shit if new official forms 'look like deviantArt drawings'? Don't look at deviantArt. Don't look at fan art. Hell, do look at fan art and just don't care if the official forms might look similar. What bad thing is actually going to happen if new transformations happen? The transformations wouldn't be the problem, the story would be.

The Fate franchise has a million characters who all share similar faces and you know what that's done? It's given fans more cute merchandise to buy if they so please. Big whoop.

Give me 69 more Gokuus and make they all cute and sculpted as fuck. Make the hair queerer! What's the worst that can happen? Is the Super Duper Saiyan Indigo 420 going to come to life and steal my purse? lol
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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Skar » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:43 pm

JulieYBM wrote: โ†‘Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:17 pm I hate to keep asking "who gives a shit", but...who gives a shit if new official forms 'look like deviantArt drawings'? Don't look at deviantArt. Don't look at fan art. Hell, do look at fan art and just don't care if the official forms might look similar. What bad thing is actually going to happen if new transformations happen? The transformations wouldn't be the problem, the story would be.
Well you can't really unsee all those old fanmade transformations if you happen to come across them before. Nowadays they would be harder to find since new fanart would mostly be about the new official forms. At some point the story would have a final transformation. I think UI is more likely since Toriyama still hasn't used it in the films yet and a long buildup than deciding to stop only after covering every remaining hair color.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:03 am

Skar wrote: โ†‘Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:43 pm
JulieYBM wrote: โ†‘Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:17 pm I hate to keep asking "who gives a shit", but...who gives a shit if new official forms 'look like deviantArt drawings'? Don't look at deviantArt. Don't look at fan art. Hell, do look at fan art and just don't care if the official forms might look similar. What bad thing is actually going to happen if new transformations happen? The transformations wouldn't be the problem, the story would be.
Well you can't really unsee all those old fanmade transformations if you happen to come across them before. Nowadays they would be harder to find since new fanart would mostly be about the new official forms. At some point the story would have a final transformation. I think UI is more likely since Toriyama still hasn't used it in the films yet and a long buildup than deciding to stop only after covering every remaining hair color.
I can only really remember that Super Saiyan 5 art from 25+ years ago and even then I would have to put effort into it. Mind you, I have a medically fucked memory, but I still don't see why some fan art should negatively influence any fan's perception of the series merely because it's a transformation.

The concept of there one day being a 'final official transformation' is a bit of a false premise, though? The license holders will continue to pump out new transformations for the sake of profit and even outside of the realm of copyright there's no stopping unofficial works from continuing to produce new transformations. Goodness knows what new transformations fan were coming up with in the early 1990s that we have yet to unearth.

It's an endless cycle and nobody's responsibility to just stop it Just Because.
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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Zephyr » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:08 am

The argument that these new transformations that feature color changes are too much like "deviant art fan-made transformations" has taken quite a funny turn, because lately fan-made transformations seem to go out of their way to have a ton of small and detailed changes. There's just no winning now. If they change almost nothing, they're like X group of fan-made forms. If they change a bunch of things, instead they're like Y group of fan-made forms. So that's not even really a good criterion of criticism for them. Besides, the irony isn't lost on me that prior to seeing Super Saiyan God's design, so many people were hoping for it to be a yellow recolor of Super Saiyan 4. How the turn tables.

Of course, this isn't actually new and has really always been the case. Things like "Super Saiyan 5", and other such images that were floating around online for at least a decade before Battle of Gods came out, featured both changes in hair color and all sorts of odd details (like tattoos, or obscenely long bangs, or spikes protruding from their bodies). So there's really never been any winning. Turns out, Dragon Ball ended in 1995, and again in 1997; fans have been coming up with original transformations since then, if not since even farther back. There's nothing Toriyama and Toei and whoever else can do that hasn't basically already been done by this point. The story was dormant for too long for fans to not exhaust just about any sort of idea that someone might come up with.

You could say "no more transformations!" then, which I guess is fine. People love to cry "they need an excuse to sell more figures!", and while that's not entirely untrue, it ignores two things. First, that existing characters and their various appearances still sell quite well. Second, that in addition to whatever cynical merchandising motivation may exist for creating new transformations, transformations act as an effective visual shorthand for a character's full power, what Viz translates Goku as calling "battle level power", in contrast to "tournament level power". This is a story about endless strength cultivation, and you can only demonstrate how much stronger a character is by technique and choreography alone for so long; that wall was arguably hit during Namek, barring some small exceptions here and there. I guess you could then argue that maybe the story should end already, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree! But also, it already did. At least twice.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by NeoZ Duwang » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:39 am

None, I want them to go bald
I know this joke is very obvious and was already made before, but I can't just not do it

Also, edit because I posted this before catching up with the discussion:

I hate the argument of "[Insert thing] looks fanmade", it just puts much more creative value on officialy supported products compared to independent works made by small creators, when I think both of them are equally as valuable and there's nothing making one inherently worse than the other. It just seems like an easy way to inferiorize a work, and I'd say it's even less helpful than just saying "It looks ugly", because being "fanmade" can mean almost anything, but for some reason everybody treats it as if it carried a negative connotation

And as has been said before by Zephyr, fans have exhausted basically every path you could take for a new transformation, so it's always going to be similar to something that someone else in the fandom came up with years ago. That's because these fan creators are also creators, while it's easy to mock the guy that painted Gohan's hair as green in the 2000s, it's not like the idea was totally out of question for Toriyama, Super Saiyan 1 was just a palette swap for both Gohan and Vegeta and Super Saiyan 2 was so subtle of a change for everyone but Kid Gohan it might as well just be Toriyama drawing SS1 differently. If God or any of the new transformations were made during the original run of the manga, I don't think anybody would look back at it now saying it looks fanmade, I'm not saying people would like it necessarily, but my point here is that saying that something looks fanmade very rarely has any meaning and is only used so widely because it's an easy way to attempt at making a work seem less "professional" in the era of the internet where anyone can share their own creations easily and instantaneously
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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Scientist Fu » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:06 pm

Bald is a nice color, I like it. But what's even better is bald+tattoos.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Zephyr » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:55 pm

NeoZ Duwang wrote: โ†‘Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:39 amSuper Saiyan 2 was so subtle of a change for everyone but Kid Gohan it might as well just be Toriyama drawing SS1 differently.
1 and 2 are so similar that Toriyama effectively folded them together in his mind, drawing Super Saiyan 1 with sparks, and thinking that "Super Saiyan 2" was the one with the long hair.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Yuji » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:58 pm

Wasn't Beast's original concept supposed to have blue skin and vampire teeth? I think experimenting with other body parts outside of the usual hair/eyebrows/eyes/muscle mass could work well.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:33 pm

How about curly hair? or combed differently, parted in the middle, or on the sides... same colour, same amount of hair, only the waves that spike them up hit the hair differently. Or wet, with the hair stuck to their faces like they just got out of the pool.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Skar » Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:25 pm

JulieYBM wrote: โ†‘Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:03 amThe concept of there one day being a 'final official transformation' is a bit of a false premise, though? The license holders will continue to pump out new transformations for the sake of profit and even outside of the realm of copyright there's no stopping unofficial works from continuing to produce new transformations. Goodness knows what new transformations fan were coming up with in the early 1990s that we have yet to unearth.

It's an endless cycle and nobody's responsibility to just stop it Just Because.
I'm not sure how it would be a false premise. The original manga ended with SSJ3 and the anime with SSJ4. That lasted a few decades before a new form was introduced. I know some fans think the series will continue forever but some fans also claimed the anime would return every year since it ended. I'm still waiting to see UI appear in a film which is probably a few years away before expecting Toriyama to give Goku another transformation. I'm also still expecting the series to get an ending at some point.
Zephyr wrote: โ†‘Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:08 amOf course, this isn't actually new and has really always been the case. Things like "Super Saiyan 5", and other such images that were floating around online for at least a decade before Battle of Gods came out, featured both changes in hair color and all sorts of odd details (like tattoos, or obscenely long bangs, or spikes protruding from their bodies). So there's really never been any winning. Turns out, Dragon Ball ended in 1995, and again in 1997; fans have been coming up with original transformations since then, if not since even farther back. There's nothing Toriyama and Toei and whoever else can do that hasn't basically already been done by this point. The story was dormant for too long for fans to not exhaust just about any sort of idea that someone might come up with.
I don't think there's anything wrong with liking these new transformations since that just comes down to personal preference. Fanmade transformations varied from being overdesigned to just recoloring hair when that was all the artist could do. Some fans liked those forms back then and some didn't so it's more about just having a consistent opinion regardless of where it came from. If a fan already had an opinion about a certain concept or form back then, there shouldn't be a problem with keeping the same opinion when it's done officially.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Alruneia » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:29 pm

After Blanco comes Calvo.
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I'm pretty tired of the endless transformations, so I actually would like for Toriyama to parody it by making a form like this (the El Hermano head-shape isn't a requirement but the baldness is). I get why transformations keep being invented, I really do, but I still think there's more than enough of them at the moment and that the situation deserves to be made fun of at least a little bit.
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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by Trouser » Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:22 pm

Super Saiyan Rainbow with Super Saiyan 3's long hair and seven rainbow tails with rainbow eyebrows just to mock lazy Toei's animators.
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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:14 pm

sigh

No, I wasnโ€™t trying to devalue fan-made work. I was simply saying that to me, these new forms feel rather cynically designed. As in, they seem like they exist for the sake of giving fans their fix for cool and flashy transformations, because thatโ€™s apparently all anyone expects from Dragon Ball. I donโ€™t have anything against fan art, unless it happens to be outright creepy and gross.

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Re: What colour would you like the next SSJ transformation to have?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:19 pm

Skar wrote: โ†‘Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:25 pm
JulieYBM wrote: โ†‘Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:03 amThe concept of there one day being a 'final official transformation' is a bit of a false premise, though? The license holders will continue to pump out new transformations for the sake of profit and even outside of the realm of copyright there's no stopping unofficial works from continuing to produce new transformations. Goodness knows what new transformations fan were coming up with in the early 1990s that we have yet to unearth.

It's an endless cycle and nobody's responsibility to just stop it Just Because.
I'm not sure how it would be a false premise. The original manga ended with SSJ3 and the anime with SSJ4. That lasted a few decades before a new form was introduced. I know some fans think the series will continue forever but some fans also claimed the anime would return every year since it ended. I'm still waiting to see UI appear in a film which is probably a few years away before expecting Toriyama to give Goku another transformation. I'm also still expecting the series to get an ending at some point.
Zephyr wrote: โ†‘Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:08 amOf course, this isn't actually new and has really always been the case. Things like "Super Saiyan 5", and other such images that were floating around online for at least a decade before Battle of Gods came out, featured both changes in hair color and all sorts of odd details (like tattoos, or obscenely long bangs, or spikes protruding from their bodies). So there's really never been any winning. Turns out, Dragon Ball ended in 1995, and again in 1997; fans have been coming up with original transformations since then, if not since even farther back. There's nothing Toriyama and Toei and whoever else can do that hasn't basically already been done by this point. The story was dormant for too long for fans to not exhaust just about any sort of idea that someone might come up with.
I don't think there's anything wrong with liking these new transformations since that just comes down to personal preference. Fanmade transformations varied from being overdesigned to just recoloring hair when that was all the artist could do. Some fans liked those forms back then and some didn't so it's more about just having a consistent opinion regardless of where it came from. If a fan already had an opinion about a certain concept or form back then, there shouldn't be a problem with keeping the same opinion when it's done officially.
Except Dragon Ball is never going to go away forever. We might get a break for a little while but that has clearly not lasted for long, as evidenced by the fact that Dragon Ball suddenly returned after fifteen years to give Gokuu a new form, then a new form two years after that.
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