Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

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Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by ATA » Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:23 pm

Howdy!

I will like to start to say that this isn't a debate about which composer is better. This isn't the thread for that. Before Dragon Ball Super existed I always felt like many English-dub fans liked Kenji Yamamoto because it was in between Kikuchi and Faulconer. The best of both worlds. Granted I'm not sure how Japanese people felt about his music but I always assumed people saw Yamamoto's music as more modern. Now that Super has aired, Sumitomo as added his own catalog of music for Dragon Ball. Hearing
Heroic Battle (HQ) - Dragon Ball Super | Norihito Sumitomo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRqqdlUwKeM
it kinda reminds me of
Dragon Ball Z OST - 24 Ginyu Transformation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF12Vf_IfBU
. Both were used similar too. Both were also overused in my opinion as well.

This leds to to ask Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?? I doubt Sumitomo knows who Faulconer is. I would even argue that Sumitomo seems to be more of a middle ground between Yamamoto and Faulconer than he is all 3 because Kikuchi's music while amazing...sounds kinda dated. The reason I ask this question is because it seems like English Dub fans are less harsh towards Yamamoto and Sumitomo than they was towards Kikuchi. Hopefully I'm not over generalizing. I know (casual) fans who grew up around the time Kai aired are more supportive of the original Japanese version than the previous generation.
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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by DB1984 » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:05 pm

Kinda off-topic: With Naoki Sato scoring the music for the latest movie, has Sumitomo been replaced?

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by Rafa Fast » Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:27 am

DB1984 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:05 pm Kinda off-topic: With Naoki Sato scoring the music for the latest movie, has Sumitomo been replaced?
No one knows, I made a theory in this thread a year ago
Summary:
I think, yeah, he was replaced, because no other composer in the franchise ever returned after being replaced.
Tokunaga replaced Kikuchi in GT, Kikuchi never returned
Tokunaga couldn't last long because GT was short and after it the production of new animated projects for the series froze for a long time, Tokunaga never returned.
Yamamoto couldn't last long because o his plagearism scandal, never returned.

I think there might be a 8-9 years "contract" for these composers to work in animated projects from the franchise, Kikuchi quit in 1995, 9 years after he started in DB (1986)
Sumitomo started with Battle of Gods (2013) and composed til Broly, and his music was used in that 2021 Toei anniversary short animation, this count 8 years.
I simply wouldn't want to imagine my life without Dragon Ball, thank you Akira Toriyama (1955-2024), you are now immortal.

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:37 am

Rafa Fast wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:27 am Tokunaga replaced Kikuchi in GT, Kikuchi never returned
Tokunaga couldn't last long because GT was short and after it the production of new animated projects for the series froze for a long time, Tokunaga never returned.
Kikuchi wasn't the only one that got replaced for GT, just about everyone who was involved in DBZ music in some capacity (like all the vocalists, Yasunori Iwasaki, Tetsuji Hayashi, Osamu Totsuka, Kohei Tanaka, Yamamoto, etc) had checked out. And Toei even went with a completely different record label, ZAIN RECORDS, for GT's music production (and also the 10th anniversary movie which actually got a soundtrack release).
Also, as far as Tokunaga never returning as composer, it doesn't really have anything to do with DB specifically. According to his project list page on JP wiki, and CD releases where he has been credited, with two exceptions (a Slam Dunk series, also by Toei Animation, being the other one aside GT and the movie) he's generally not in the soundtrack composing business at all after 1996.
DB1984 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:05 pm Kinda off-topic: With Naoki Sato scoring the music for the latest movie, has Sumitomo been replaced?
Rafa Fast wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:27 am I think, yeah, he was replaced, because no other composer in the franchise ever returned after being replaced.
Regarding this, it's quite unlikely that Sato is going to be a regular composer for DB projects going forward, especially considering the other projects he's more closely involved in. He has a more extensive career outside of that (even scoring an NHK Taiga Drama at one time prior).

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:12 pm

I think Sumitomo benefits from scoring a series where there's no pre-conceived notion on what that specific Dragon Ball series should sound like.

I know you said Faulconer fans are less harsh toward Yamamoto than Kikuchi, but from what I've seen that really isn't true. Most of them pipe up how they wish it had the Faulconer score. Some say they like Kai for its acting and scripting and pacing and think it would be even better with the Faulconer score and others hate Kai and cite the replacement actors and the lack of Faulconer score as their reasons. However, in the last few years we've seen the Kai generation grow up and voice their opinions. They grew up with Kai on Nicktoons and Toonzai and they have no affinity towards the Faulconer score because it was never part of the show they grew up with. To them it's not Faulconer vs Yamamoto , it's Yamamoto vs Kikuchi (with Yamamoto usually winning due to a more modern sound and the poor utilization of Kikuchi's catalog in Kai)

Dragon Ball Super has always had the Sumitomo score and unlike Dragon Ball Kai it's not a recut of an existing series (its still Dragon Ball Z so Faulconer's music should still play in it is the logic here) . There's the odd fan here and there exclaiming they wish Faulconer was brought back for Super (really they want Mike Smith, Scott Morgan, and Julius Dobos brought back) but for the most part its just accepted this is the music for Dragon Ball Super.

It's like OG Dragon Ball . Even the most hardcore Faulconer fan usually concedes Shunsuke Kikuchi's music fits the original Dragon Ball (the ones that actually watch OG Dragon Ball) and that's because Funimation never replaced the music. The brief lived and mostly forgotten 95 BLT dub aside, Dragon Ball's dub always had the Kikuchi score so all the potshots leveled at Kikuchi's music in Z doesn't happen.

For many U.S fans

Shunsuke Kikuchi is Original Dragon Ball

Team Faulconer is Dragon Ball Z (the fact there is no Faulconer music for the Saiyan and Namek sagas usually gets overlooked)

Norihito Sumitomo is Dragon Ball Super*


I know Sumitomo also scored Dragon Ball Kai: TFC but that always seems overlooked because by the time the dub came out everyone was focusing on Dragon Ball Super anyways

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:39 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:12 pmThere's the odd fan here and there exclaiming they wish Faulconer was brought back for Super (really they want Mike Smith, Scott Morgan, and Julius Dobos brought back)
In general, I wonder, are the people who say this even aware of the way that this sort of thing is meant to work across the board in present day anime importation especially? Is it that they're just living in the past or something?
Because their time on the franchise was basically a one hit wonder (as ghostwriters no less) and they've just about all moved on, though only one of them (Dobos) got a few other scoring projects afterwards while the others really didn't. Faulconer in particular is just off the radar in general, like he was before that project.

And besides, the only Westerners who will ever be hired by a JP studio to work directly on an anime project (original version) presently are Evan Call & Kevin Penkin :p

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 11, 2023 10:36 am

GhostEmperorX wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:39 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:12 pmThere's the odd fan here and there exclaiming they wish Faulconer was brought back for Super (really they want Mike Smith, Scott Morgan, and Julius Dobos brought back)
In general, I wonder, are the people who say this even aware of the way that this sort of thing is meant to work across the board in present day anime importation especially? Is it that they're just living in the past or something?
Because their time on the franchise was basically a one hit wonder (as ghostwriters no less) and they've just about all moved on, though only one of them (Dobos) got a few other scoring projects afterwards while the others really didn't. Faulconer in particular is just off the radar in general, like he was before that project.

And besides, the only Westerners who will ever be hired by a JP studio to work directly on an anime project (original version) presently are Evan Call & Kevin Penkin :p
I think they're just living in the past tbh. As far as I am aware the only dub still getting replacement music is the Pokemon dub and even then it has some weird arrangement where only the tv series is apparently getting its music replaced and the movies get to keep their original music.

Hell, by the early 2000s DBZ and DBGT were the only anime dubs on Toonami with replacement music since even the old Sailor Moon dub switched to using the Japanese music by its third season

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Fri Aug 11, 2023 10:51 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2023 10:36 am I think they're just living in the past tbh. As far as I am aware the only dub still getting replacement music is the Pokemon dub and even then it has some weird arrangement where only the tv series is apparently getting its music replaced and the movies get to keep their original music.

Hell, by the early 2000s DBZ and DBGT were the only anime dubs on Toonami with replacement music since even the old Sailor Moon dub switched to using the Japanese music by its third season
Yea, it's usually only the toy commercial TCG series that seem to have some stakeholder companies in either the US or Canada, that are also on some level involved in the production, where this still happens today. And those tend to get some significant edits, localizations, & cuts even now. Of course [totally obvious point incoming], DB was never in that category as like the vast majority of anime & manga, it's 100% a JP production.
(Speaking of Pokémon though, apparently the new show's music is confirmed to be made by the 2nd name I mentioned, wonder if they'll ironically throw that out too...)

Makes sense, apparently the real heyday of that convention was primarily in the 90's. Wasn't there for any of it though so I don't really know.

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by Majin Buu » Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:35 am

When I first heard Sumitomo's music, I hated it in part because it reminded me of the Falconer score. I began to warm up to it in part because I started hearing parts that reminded me of Kikuchi.

There's some Falconer-esque synth/rock elements in there; the trumpets, violins, and electric guitars used in certain tracks sound vaguely like Kikuchi; and the general sound tying it all together feels like Yamamoto's Hollywood blockbuster-esque Kai work.

So yeah, I think this tracks.
ATA wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:23 pmI would even argue that Sumitomo seems to be more of a middle ground between Yamamoto and Faulconer than he is all 3 because Kikuchi's music while amazing...sounds kinda dated.
The Falconer replacement score is always promoted as more "modern" sounding when to me it sounds like the kind of music you'd hear in a typical action-oriented kids show from the 90s- because it was emulating the sound of the original Levi/Wasserman replacement score, which sounded like Power Rangers music.
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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:48 am

Majin Buu wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:35 am When I first heard Sumitomo's music, I hated it in part because it reminded me of the Falconer score.
Not saying you're one of the people who says this, but this reminds me of some posts I've seen on here while looking through this area that say that he somehow "imitated" the Faulconer score or something, when like most in JP (especially in the soundtrack business) it's extremely unlikely for the guy to have even heard of the individual or come across that score at any point in time.
Over there, similar material was being made with synths before that score even existed, sometimes better, other times just as cheap, and the latter would be what they default to when their budgets are low.

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by Majin Buu » Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:11 am

GhostEmperorX wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:48 am Over there, similar material was being made with synths before that score even existed, sometimes better, other times just as cheap, and the latter would be what they default to when their budgets are low.
The cheap sounding nature of those synth-driven tracks is probably what reminded me of Falconer. That being said, that aspect specifically has always been a minor issue for me- my issues with the Falconer score go deeper than it being cheap-sounding.

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:40 am

Majin Buu wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:11 am The cheap sounding nature of those synth-driven tracks is probably what reminded me of Falconer. That being said, that aspect specifically has always been a minor issue for me- my issues with the Falconer score go deeper than it being cheap-sounding.
If I had to guess, likely the mickey-mousing, jarring shifts from one thing to another that sound like they tried too hard, and the general direction of it from those who commissioned it that generally clashes with the main idea of the series.
Though I'll leave it at this since it's a discussion for another topic, one that's been had for quite a long time too.

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 25, 2023 4:24 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:35 am
The Falconer replacement score is always promoted as more "modern" sounding when to me it sounds like the kind of music you'd hear in a typical action-oriented kids show from the 90s- because it was emulating the sound of the original Levi/Wasserman replacement score, which sounded like Power Rangers music.
More modern for the time, it could not sound more like music from the turn of the millenium with its electronic techno synth score pretty much screaming "This is the 21st century now bitches" it dates the dub pretty badly to that era.

Which is funny because Kikuchi's music being dated is cited as a weakness by his detractors but it was a strength because he was deliberately invoking music from the kung fu movies Toriyama cited as an influence for Dragon Ball.

Although ironically even though Yamamoto's score is now nearly 15 years old and was going for a modern Hollywood sound (to the point of just ripping off tracks from then recent blockbusters) its aged much more gracefully than the Faulconer score, plagiarism aside. But that could just be more of a reflection on how cringe the early 2000s were in general.

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:36 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 4:24 pm More modern for the time, it could not sound more like music from the turn of the millenium with its electronic techno synth score pretty much screaming "This is the 21st century now bitches" it dates the dub pretty badly to that era.
And the fact that the people who commissioned it themselves didn't even care for it after it was done, instantly moving on to more than one different trend/convention for other media covered by the license, is telling.
Which is funny because Kikuchi's music being dated is cited as a weakness by his detractors but it was a strength because he was deliberately invoking music from the kung fu movies Toriyama cited as an influence for Dragon Ball.

Although ironically even though Yamamoto's score is now nearly 15 years old and was going for a modern Hollywood sound (to the point of just ripping off tracks from then recent blockbusters) its aged much more gracefully than the Faulconer score, plagiarism aside. But that could just be more of a reflection on how cringe the early 2000s were in general.
Which leads me to another point, that soundtracks should not have to depend on trends alone like what the replacement scores did, as they can (and should) be their own thing. The original score does this well of course, the only problem is that the recording department seems to have taken the idea too far, seeing as a not-insignificant number of tracks on official CD releases are for whatever reason in mono, even though said releases were done in the 90's and no one was using that for soundtracks of that time in general as a rule.
Basically, it has the absolute worst treatment of any anime score release from back then (which just had no excuse to happen at all). The CD's for movies 8, 10, and 11 are the only 100% good soundtrack releases the Z series has had, and an indication that they could have done things right from the beginning (and the fact that they didn't eventually came back to bite them in Kai during the damage control session after the latter score).

It's also inconsistent considering how consistent Kikuchi himself was throughout the entire series.

Also, concerning Yamamoto, whatever can be said about the 20-year record of plagiarism, it's indisputable that he had as strong a grasp of production as he did of arrangement (he was working with some really competent engineers, to boot). It also helps that he basically got some of the best treatment and budgets in the franchise from the hit song collections to just about only his DB video game projects getting standalone soundtrack releases where no other person did (and has till date).

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by YoungDefender » Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:03 pm

I can see what you mean and what you're getting at, at least with the comparison of the two tracks you posted but I don't think I agree. Not sure we even need a middle ground or some kind of compromise on sound, most of the time if you try to make everyone happy you'll end up making no one happy.

For me the two scores that resonate with me most are the Faulconer and the tracks used for the Westwood dub (as well as some other localizations), partly due to nostalgia, partly due to the composition and sound and partly due to how each score was used. The Shuki Levi score for the Saban dub was good too in my view although perhaps the least memorable and Kikuchi has grown on me quite a bit over the years but each of these offer something so different that no where did I feel I needed a merging or blending of any of these styles. Each are distinct and have to be enjoyed as a distinct experience without constant comparisons to each other.

As for Yamamoto's score, from what I have heard of the best of it (according to it's fans) it sounds like a lifted video game score, which in itself isn't a bad thing, but not necessarily my cup of tea unless I am playing Soulcalibur or something. Maybe it would hit different watching the series front to back with this score but I can say that plagiarism aside it certainly isn't something I would call bad.

For all the issues I have with Super the music isn't really on my radar enough to have much of an opinion on it but I wouldn't say it's as glaringly bad as the visual art style, direction and animation. In comparison to what the art directors and animators got away with on Super Sumitomo is a musical genius as far as I'm concerned. This score does seem to utilize guitar and a lot of synth and a fair deal of brass instruments but I think that's where the comparisons as a Kikuchi/Faulconer fusion end.

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Re: Is Norihito Sumitomo A Good Middle-Ground Between Kikuchi, Kenji Yamamoto, and Bruce Faulconer?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:46 pm

YoungDefender wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:03 pm I can see what you mean and what you're getting at, at least with the comparison of the two tracks you posted but I don't think I agree. Not sure we even need a middle ground or some kind of compromise on sound, most of the time if you try to make everyone happy you'll end up making no one happy.
Each are distinct and have to be enjoyed as a distinct experience without constant comparisons to each other.
This is even more accurate upon considering the fact that every legitimate composer who has been in the business for a long time making their own genuine works will inevitably develop their own unique musical style/voice at some point along the way (that may be picked up on the more projects they do). Which is what counts for far more than anything else.
As for Yamamoto's score, from what I have heard of the best of it (according to it's fans) it sounds like a lifted video game score, which in itself isn't a bad thing, but not necessarily my cup of tea unless I am playing Soulcalibur or something. Maybe it would hit different watching the series front to back with this score but I can say that plagiarism aside it certainly isn't something I would call bad.
Lots of people say Super Mario Galaxy (without naming specific tracks though), while I do know that he lifted at least one track from a game called Captain Tsubasa ("German Team").
Meanwhile the FP score has quite a few video game moments of its own (especially in the Boo Saga where there's RPG-type material for the antagonists, complete with orchestra samples & all that).
This score does seem to utilize guitar and a lot of synth and a fair deal of brass instruments but I think that's where the comparisons as a Kikuchi/Faulconer fusion end.
And honestly, it's not even a fusion of the two at all, as though their respective instrument conventions were somehow unique to either of them (as some people might seem to be indicating here & there).
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